What are unskilled and manual labor workers doing to stay employed?

1. 61

   dianetrotterposted 7 years ago

   The Age of Technology brings opportunities for those who have STEM (science, technology, engineeriing and mathematics) skills. 
   1.  What about people who want to work @ fast food restaurants or retail stores?
   2.  What impact does automated kiosks have on fast food and retail jobs?
   3.  What about construction workers?  Coal miners? 
   4.  Do you have solar panels?
   
   Robotics is increasingly taking the place of human beings in manual and repetitive labor jobs.  This impacts unions, pay rate, employment and health.  Should affected workers obtain skills in STEM?

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      ahorsebackposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Just saw a news article stating WallMart will now check and stock shelves with robots in some stores = cheaper to use the robot !    Robotics , other technologies have always played a part in high and  low skill jobs .   Tens of thousands of farm workers were replaced by tractors , These systematic changes have always been a part of human ,labor evolution .
      -There will always be the guy who loves his floor sweeping job . its only natural
      -Kiosk's will be just one more nail in the coffin of  manual labor trades
      -Construction , coal workers have already suffered this evolution
      -Yes .I do.
      
      One day ,in the not too distant future , technology will have replaced most human born labor jobs,  Here are my one hundred year questions
      -Does that mean the government will  pay us a wage ?
      -Who will provide the incomes?
      -Will an income actually be required ?
      -Will our personal needs economy be replaced by a coupon , bond based purchasing system ie. food , rent , mortgage , payment system ?
      
      Prediction  , We will see and experience major changes in our economics , jobs and economic purchasing habits just in the next fifty years . I believe it will all become government based , fortified and run , especially given today's cultural  entitlement mentality .

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         dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         I don't know.  I am glad I am on the retirement end of all of this.  I've taken college and professional development classes online.  I'm wondering what will become of the education system with the high tuition at colleges.

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            ahorsebackposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            They are pricing themselves right out of the market , I blame the government tax system , write off's , etc. ,subsidies FOR the higher education industry . .......The universities are destroying the system of education for the masses .
            
            Not good , While dozens of countries kids are way brighter than ours .
            
            America the affluent ........and the lazy ?

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            Credence2posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I am with you, I glad that I am on the retirement track. Whoever designed my pension recognizes that it is a good thing to get 'older people' moving along to make way for the young. They seem to have a knack for picking up on fast technological changes that can frustrate me at times.
            
            How do you compete with the mathematic precision of a machine? It was mentioned by other forum participants the woe to those that are not prepared. Certain jobs may always remain impractically performed by anything other than human beings. But with cars that can drive themselves, I have to wonder. Economic necessity will bring more of this sort of technology on line sooner rather than later.
            
            Either you will be a rich plutocrat Republican type living on inherited wealth, or be highly skilled in a trade or profession relevant to the jobs of the future, or marginalized on the minimum wage track for life. Anyway you look at it, higher education or forward vision trade schools will be a necessity for anyone not born rich.

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               dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               I just read an article about driverless cars coming in the near future.  What will that do to Uber and ? (forget the name of the one staring with F).  Will they go bankrupt or purchase a fleet of driverless cars.  This type of business is great (I guess) for those with funds to invest in driverless cars and also carries a risk.
               
               I get tired when I think about what it takes to make a livable wage these days.  I can't afford to buy my house!

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   2. 82

      gmwilliamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Listen, those who aren't technologically proficient will become part of the permanent unemployed.  The postmodern era requires one to be technologically proficient & specialized in order to maintain a middle class lifestyle.  Those who aren't such proficient will regress into the new lower class, if not underclass.
      
      No one wants to work in retail & restaurants.  Those who work in retail & restaurants do so because they aren't proficient in anything else.  They HAVE to work there as they are either lesser skilled or don't have the intellectual nor technological proficiency to do anything else.  Blue collar jobs have been phasing out since the 1970s.  Even lower level white collar jobs are being phased out.   These jobs are becoming OUTmoded.   The postmodern, 21st century is the century of highly specialized education & jobs.  Those who have such credentials will thrive while those who DON'T....will proverbially go under.

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         dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you gm!  Many don't see this urgency.

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            gmwilliamsposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            They refuse to acknowledge this.  This is the reality of postmodern, 21st century America.  They want to continue to believe that they will survive the 21st century doing 20th century work.  It doesn't go that way.  There are & will continue be advancements in education & jobs.   People have to keep up with these advancements.  There are still those who have the 20th century paradigm that retail & service jobs will suffice but it won't.   These people are going under- & fast.  They refuse to upgrade their education & skill level, even hating those who advise them to do so.  They want to continue to live in their socioeconomic mire.   
            
            The middle class is transforming.  Those w/the right skills & education will progress to the upper middle, even upper class while those who refuse to upgrade their education & skills will regress into the lower class.  There are people who live in the 20th century, job security paradigm.  There is no such thing as job security- it is now SKILLSET SECURITY.

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   psycheskinnerposted 7 years ago

   There is still a massive need for human labor and work for people willing to actually labor.  Cleaning, room service, milkers, harvesters, transportation, most warehouses.  Just be sure to join a good union.

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   1. 61

      dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      For how long?  Restocking is being done by robots in major retail warehouses.  Smaller companies that can't compete with the prices will go out of business.  Maybe someone with a niche market may survive for a while.
      
      When eBay first started, I made money hand over fist buying Guess watches from Ross and selling them on eBay.  Ross went from selling $80 watches for $12 to $40.  They had smart people watching what was happening.  I sold Betsey Johnson jewelry for great profit until China started selling the same pices for .99 to 4.99 with free shipping.
      
      A major part of a growing business is forecasting.  If you keep your nose to the grindstone, you will work yourself right out of business.  Unions are in large trade and professions.  Employees that work for small companies are, in most cases, not able to join unions.

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         psycheskinnerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         For quite a while so long as a human worker is the massively cheaper option.  Right now the demand for manual labor greatly outstrips the domestic supply, hence the huge demand for illegal immigrants.  demand exceeds supply for labor more than for most trades and almost all professions.
         
         Robots can current recreate exact movements in fixed places That means currently they can't even work in warehouses and are many decades from being able to make a bed, butcher pigs, or pick cabbages.
         
         When they can it will take some time to wean the country from immigrant labor, let alone leave willing laborers, people who will actually do hard labor for minimum wage, out of work.

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         1. 61

            dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Speaking of immigrants, DJT just recently got approval for 150 immigrants to work 2 Mara Lago.  I wonder if he had placed ads for local workers.  Some might even consider temporary relocation to another state for the jobs.

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               wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Sure you don't mean 150 migrants?  Immigrants do not need permission to work.
               
               Huffington Post reports the resort got H2B visas for 70 (not 150) foreign workers.  DJT Trump did not, of course, as he is not running the resort - perhaps he should have been allowed to maintain control of his enterprises?  And they certainly aren't immigrants - H2B visas are for temporary help only and workers may only stay in the country until the work is finished, with a maximum of one year.
               
               https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tr … 652fff66ab

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                  dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  When I'm wrong, I admit it!  Thank you for correcting me.
                  
                  DJT has been doing this for years.  I'm sure the labor is not something that can't be done by people in the US.  If he had nothing to do with it, it would make a great statement for him to cancel the visas and get people in Florida to do those jobs.

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                     wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Did the resort advertise the position?  Did it list all of them with the unemployment department?  How many domestic applicants were received and how many of the jobs were filled with locals? 
                     
                     Sounds like you're assuming that the answers are "no", "no", "zero" and "zero".  If so, what are you basing the assumption on?
                     
                     Or were there 576 jobs, of which 506 were filled with locals?  The "rest of the story" isn't being told, is it, so how can the public make an informed decision as to wrong-doing?
                     
                     How can he cancel the visas when he has no control over how the business is run?  An executive order?

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                        dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't know.  I just question getting workers from out of the counry without trying within the USA.  Maybe some unemployed coal miners would have been willing to take the temporary employment waiting for coal mining to pick up again.
                        
                        If he wants American businesses to hire American, he should show buy example.  The same for telling businesses to bring manufacturing back to the US.  Show buy example.
                        
                        I didn't intend to veer to this.  My concern is having a fully prepared workforce that will help improve the economy and way of life here in the US.

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                        1. 88

                           wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                           "I just question getting workers from out of the counry without trying within the USA."
                           
                           That was my point - where did you get the information that no effort was made to hire locally?  Or even that 500 locals weren't hired, leaving just 70 more needed?  If you're going to blame Trump, or even his company someone else is running in his absence, shouldn't you be able to show that neither of these happened?

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                              dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                              CareerSource Palm Beach County, a nonprofit placement agency, told The Palm Beach Post that there are many Americans eager to work at Mar-a-Lago. “We currently have 5,136 qualified candidates in Palm Beach County for various hospitality positions,” spokesman Tom Veenstra said.
                              
                              https://www.aol.com/article/news/2017/1 … /23268642/

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         2. 61

            dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            What do you consider a livable wage for a MacDonald's worker or retail clerk?

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               wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               The typical MacDonald's worker - either a teen living with parents or a retiree supplementing their SS - can do very well on the $10 or so typically being paid.  But Mickey D's is already going nearly full automation in the UK and I'm sure the US will follow suit.  Those kinds of jobs are being forced out by ever increasing wages demanded by govt.  Seattle is a good example.

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            Chriswillman90posted 7 years agoin reply to this

            With the exponential growth in technology and factors such as machine/deep learning that are rapidly developing more advanced AI, then I suspect a breakdown in those jobs within 10 years.
            
            Add to that the plee for higher wages and companies will push towards automation even faster of most jobs, not just manual labor.
            
            But there's going to be a lot of resistance as technology progresses and initially it won't be so bad. People will do more appreciable work instead of physically demanding labor as they get robotic assistance.
            
            Right now all workers have at least a decade of job prosperity ahead, but then the bottom will fall out. My target year for this is 2030, give or take a couple years.

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               dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you Chris!  You have very interesting technology articles I will read.
               
               What do you think AppleTV, Amazon Prime, Netflix, and other emerging services will do to cable television?  I'm tired of my cable bill climbing.  These new services could put cable out of business and many will lose jobs.

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   ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

   it would be very wise if ALL of you looked at the , for one , the EB-5 program  and all the others that allow the legalization of the  illegals into America's job market , How dumb we all are .
   
   All of it designed ,legislated and instituted well before DJT !

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      Annkfposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The rules for the EB-5 program are:
      "Make the necessary investment in a commercial enterprise in the United States; and Plan to create or preserve 10 permanent full-time jobs for qualified U.S.workers."
      That pretty much cancels out illegal immigration. If a person is investing in the nation, and bringing jobs with them, that's not a bad of a plan.
      In April, I read an article that talked about President Trump limiting foreign worker visas. The issues that have arisen with the H-1B program, or "insourcing," is that many American workers have actually had to train H-1B visa holders, to take their jobs. That's insane! .
      Trump has been working on reforming the old H-1B, program.
      "The H-1B is a common visa pathway for high-skilled foreigners to work at companies in the U.S. It's valid for three years, and can be renewed for another three years. It's a program that's particularly near and dear to the tech community, with many talented engineers vying for one of the program's 85,000 visas each year."
      "The new “Buy America, Hire America” order directs government agencies to enforce rules against immigration fraud and abuse and proposes reforming the H-1B visa program to give priority to the “most skilled or highest paid applicants” instead of selecting them in a lottery system. It also aims to toughen “Buy America” rules, which favors American companies in federal government contracts, and orders a broad review of U.S. trade agreements containing waivers to procurement rules."
      https://www.uscis.gov/eb-5
      http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/04/18/tru … rade-deal/

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         dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Construction workers and hotel workers should be plentiful in the US.  After the last hurricane in Florida, my cousin went to work for 3 months.  My family members have their own contracting business.  The business continued while he was a way.  They have 4 generations of building contractors and bricklayers in the family.
         
         It sounds like it is cheaper to bring these workers in from other countries.  This is amazing considering they will have to have housing and transportation plus travel to and from the US.

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   ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

   While Americans argue about Trumps "wall " immigration policy , American jobs are being sold in the EB5 , H1b and assorted  immigration trade policies .  People in America losing jobs after 'training " lower level foreigners to do their work ,    the western trucking and terminal  industry being high-jacked by middle easterners . Education visa's where applicants simply get lost   for years upon deplaning ,   
   EB5-   just write a check for $500,000 and get free green cards for your family .
   
   Just another part of the selling off of America .

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   ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

   Since  the advent of computers , machines , robots , I can't think of one job that isn't endangered in America .    Blue collar white collar .....for instance .   Why can't congress and  senate be replaced by the computers ?   After all  ,  voting by us should be the final say , why do we need congress ultimately but to tally the votes , for instance.   
   
   The bank president , the realtor , the CEO , the dishwasher , we are all replaceable.

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      GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You sound like a pure democracy advocate.
      
      "Why can't congress and  senate be replaced by the computers ?   After all  ,  voting by us should be the final say , why do we need congress ultimately but to tally the votes , for instance.  "
      
      By your logic, life decisions need no wisdom or consideration - just majority consensus. I am glad our Constitution sees things differently.
      
      GA

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         dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         If replaced by computers, majority would not be a consideration.  Logic, Dr. Spock!

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            GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I follow your reasoning Dianetrotter - until you notice where he said; "...why do we need congress ultimately but to tally the votes... "  By his statement, majority of votes is implied. Hence my comment.
            
            ps. I am a fan of logic, which extends to say I am a fan of 'Star Trek's' Spock also. ;-)
            
            GA

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               dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Ah captain!  Affirmative!  However, "congress needed to tally?"  That does not compute!

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         ahorsebackposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         Well if a floor sweeper can be replaced why not a congressman ?  You need them that bad , the junket trips ,  Lear jets ,   the corruption ,  the steak dinners and whining dining  prostitutes , what political decision made by say ,Maxine Waters cannot be made by  a majority of her constituents  ?
         
         And you don't need to bring up here ,the popular vote for president.

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            GA Andersonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            You are right ahorseback, I don't need to bring up the popular vote example - you already did.
            
            GA ;-)

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      dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It would be interesting if all facts and assumptions were feed into a computer.  Voila!  The policy comes out.
      That's scary!

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   ahorsebackposted 7 years ago

   Point everyone  needs to accept ;  You have  -O- control over two things , the evolution of man , the evolution of robotics .

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      dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The good thing is man does not evolve!

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         ahorsebackposted 7 years agoin reply to this

         .......................:-]

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            dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            

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               Jean Bakulaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

               Millennials are quickly realizing that they are overqualified for a lot of jobs, and also owe $60,000.00 or so for their student loans. Sometimes practical experience or knowing a craft like building can be a good backup plan.
               
               My son was a teacher, and all they do is teach to the standardized tests. There is no imagination or creativity, and once the teacher is tenured, they get lazy and teach the same lesson plan for the rest of their career. I think tenure should be abolished and teachers should have a strict job review every year like most workers do.
               
               So he is running the martial arts school he attended since he was 10, two nights a week and on Saturdays. It pays well. He loves painting, and is making more painting rooms in people's houses than he did as a teacher. And he still gets to be creative. He learned from his Godfather who did sheet rock and spackle along with painting, and is neat and conscientious. He has so much work he has to turn some jobs down, and I believe talented workers will always be needed. People will pay a lot to get one good worker who knows what they are doing and is versatile. He also refurbishes old furniture, something trendy right now, another interest he always had.
               
               People appreciate calling a worker, and getting him/her on the job instead of a group of Mexicans who won't do a good job. That is prevalent in NJ. For my son, it's a win/win. People younger then him realize it's not worth it to stay loyal to a company all your life. My husband did that and when he reached 58, the company wanted to relocate in MN. He didn't want to relocate (nor did I) and they needed him. He had the most knowledge of the computer system and all the old fashioned ways to do the job too, they made carbide for industrial spray paint equipment. He died before we had to make a forced decision, although the company was very good to me. But after 40+ years, they should have offered him an early retirement or consultant position.
               
               We in the US need to be good at more than 1 thing. As many are finding, you can spend less at a local state college so you don't have to dig your way out of student debt. At the same time, try to learn other skills besides what you go to college for. And everyone isn't suited to sitting at a computer all day. A computer can't paint your house the way you want it, or have creative ideas on how to update your dated furniture.

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                  dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi Jean!
                  
                  You said:
                  Millennials are quickly realizing that they are overqualified for a lot of jobs, and also owe $60,000.00 or so for their student loans. Sometimes practical experience or knowing a craft like building can be a good backup plan.
                  
                  IMHO:  It depends on their majors.  There is high demand for STEM.  Jobs that require your philosophy are not in high demand.
                  
                  You said:
                  
                  My son was a teacher, and all they do is teach to the standardized tests. There is no imagination or creativity, and once the teacher is tenured, they get lazy and teach the same lesson plan for the rest of their career. I think tenure should be abolished and teachers should have a strict job review every year like most workers do.
                  
                  My experience:  I was forced to retire from teaching because they wanted to lower their budget and use my classes to dump unmotivated students.  There are some teachers that use the same lesson plan because the concepts don't change.  2 + 2 will always before.  What makes it refreshing is when problem solving and practical situations are used.  That is part of professional development for all public schools.
                  
                  My problem is the professional development was not applicable to my subject.  I taught choir.  I was written up for not having students take Cornell Notes and not passing out popsicle sticks at the door to determine what students don't understand.  Teaching choir provides immediate feedback.  The problem was that evaluators didn't know how to evaluate a music teacher. 
                  
                  It's great that your son knows how to do odd jobs and run his own business.  I wanted to be a secretary but went to college because my friends went.  I earned an BBA, MBA and passed CPA exam.  Call me crazy but I wanted to help kids.  I started teaching music.  The work combination is allowing me to retire outside of poverty.
                  
                  You said:
                  
                  People appreciate calling a worker, and getting him/her on the job instead of a group of Mexicans who won't do a good job.
                  
                  My comment:
                  This sounds like you think Mexicans don't do a good job!  I'm sure you didn't mean it.  It sounds like a stereotype.
                  
                  You said:
                  
                  We in the US need to be good at more than 1 thing. As many are finding, you can spend less at a local state college so you don't have to dig your way out of student debt. At the same time, try to learn other skills besides what you go to college for. And everyone isn't suited to sitting at a computer all day. A computer can't paint your house the way you want it, or have creative ideas on how to update your dated furniture.
                  
                  My comment:
                  I totally agree.  I had no idea I would be able to use piano lessons I took as a child.  I'm even able to do some repairs around the house by watching YouTube videos.

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                     Jean Bakulaposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                     Hi dianetrotter,
                     
                     I understand what you say about teaching, that basic math and other factual studies never change. But some teachers (obviously not one like you)! never try to make it more interesting. It's hard to do when kids are any age. But I would at least like to see the effort put in, although I know you can't fight the administration too much. My son can still use his karate skills to teach, as you teach piano. And people his age are pretty skilled in STEM subjects anyway.. Also, as you say, psychology and soft sciences aren't really in demand. We also don't take our efforts to teach our students another language seriously either. They can get to Spanish 5 AP, and are nowhere near fluent. Most people in other countries speak their own language, English and often one more.
                     
                     I didn't word my comment regarding Mexican workers the right way. Most people need a home improvement job done, and the owner/manager of a company is the person they see. Many get upset when (it's Mexican workers in my area) come to do the actual work. I am not one of them. NJ is not as racially liberal as it pretends to be. I had to have a new septic tank put in 2 yrs. ago, and the worker who came was a lovely Cuban man, and did a great job. My next door neighbor kept complaining to me about him, saying she was "afraid." She's always been a nutty neighbor, she says things like, "the leaves from YOUR trees are falling on MY property." I generally ignore her, but there was no reason for her to fear the man who worked so hard for us (the house sits on more bedrock than we thought). It was a month long ordeal. We got to the point we were eating lunch together, I felt bad his manager wasn't giving him the help he needed and he worked so hard..
                     
                     We agree on most of this. I am glad you had a skill which helps you to pay the bills now. I also am making do from my studies of astrology, and have a thriving business due to a hobby I always loved. I think the Millennials are right in the way they are seeing it's important to be more diversified. And to spend less on college. In my generation, everyone needed a business degree. It was the last generation where you could start in the mail room of a company and rise to a prominent position without a degree. I couldn't afford college, although I had good grades. I did go later, but was already married and my Dad had passed on, and my Mom and younger brother needed my help for a long time. I worked long hours and finally never finished my degree.
                     
                     It would be nice to have a cup of coffee some time

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                        dianetrotterposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, coffee would be nice! 
                        
                        Have a good evening!

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