Will economy collapse? Why/why not? Timetable?

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  1. profile image0
    jerrylposted 13 years ago

    What's your opinion, and the reasoning behind it?

    1. Cagsil profile image70
      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes. There are too many people with their fingers in the cookie jar and no one paying attention to solid monetary policy. Regardless of what spin you get from Washington. hmm

      1. profile image0
        china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Yes and they are huge fingers in a negative cookie jar.

        1. Cagsil profile image70
          Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Actually, since you're not an American citizen, your words/opinion/perspective/perception or however else you want to describe it, is meaningless and of no value.

          You cannot possibly add any value to the conversation because you cannot vote in our elections. Get my drift? hmm

          Hence, you offer nothing of value. And, just so you know, I'm not trying to invade your right to voice your opinion, because you do have it...I'm just letting you know it is valueless to Americans.

          1. profile image0
            china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Because I am not an American citizen what I say is meaningless - get a life!

            If you don't like what I say then either argue or leave it,  piss or get off the pot as we say out here in the real world.  Petty introverted abuse is the last resort of those with no argument.

            On a serious note - you think your vote matters to the next guy who will be ripping you off ?

            1. Sab Oh profile image57
              Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              "Petty introverted abuse is the last resort of those with no argument."

              Oh really? YOU might want to keep that in mind, sir.

              1. profile image0
                china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Oh really - so you are another avatar of cagsil ?

                1. Sab Oh profile image57
                  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Do you deny that you yourself resort to petty name calling on a regular basis?

                  1. profile image0
                    china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah - so you are !

          2. starme77 profile image79
            starme77posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Ditto smile lol

            1. profile image0
              china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              You saying agree with this kind of moronic and offensive view of other people ?

              1. Sab Oh profile image57
                Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                What view was that?

          3. profile image0
            EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You sound as though you think America is in a hermetically-sealed bubble and totally isolated from the rest of the world.

            A lot of the issues we're discussing in this topic don't just apply to America, but to quite a few other countries as well.  Or had that not occurred to you?

            1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
              Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              There's one we can agree on. Cagsil is being a d**k.

    2. Cathi Sutton profile image69
      Cathi Suttonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Where are the manufactoring jobs that helped to make the USA rich?  Mostly gone to other countries where cheap labor makes our labor at home worth little or nothing.  What is the dollar value doing on the world market?  Dropping... while the Euro rises.  Where are those who truely believe, "In God We Trust"?  Not concentrated in Washington I bet! 
      How can we prosper when our homeless issues can't be resolved?  When places like Detroit are planning on bulldozing up to a fourth of their city because police patrols and fire department activities are too far beyond local tax dollar support to maintain.  When fiat money is floating around like crazy. 
      Nations come and nations go.  Usually not in one generation, so it seems to "creep" upon the people effected.  But history has taught us no man made government has ever been sustained.  So how can we be so arrogant as to assume our nation or economy is indistructable? 
      I have a friend who lost close to a hundred thousand dollars in the stock market last year.  Her broker is with a very well respected firm, and gave her no warning!  Another friend saw much of her 401k  (which she had worked close to 30 years to acclumulate), simply vanish into thin air last year.  Does this sound like a healthy economy?  Not to me.
      Do I have any answers as to how to "fix" things?  Not a one.

  2. profile image0
    jerrylposted 13 years ago

    I believe this economy will collapse.

    A lot of reasons will contribute to it under this debt system.

    First, The bankers do not want to lose the power of creating debt dollars on your promise to pay.  The interest they collect on loans is immense, and they have been collecting it for many decades. One needs only to look at how our national debt, cost of living and taxes have grown over those decades, to see that this system doesn't work.

    Second, Our politicians have their hands in the banker's pockets through the bankers lobbyists. They love that reelection campaign money. Their dedication to the federal reserve chairman is obvious when one observes their demeanor when people like Greenspan and Bernanke are speaking. They sure know how to kiss the backsides of these entities that have abused the privilege of controlling our monetary system.
    Why doesn't the fed res get audited every year? They are afraid the public will learn the truth.

    Third,  The masses do not even come close to realizing that they are being ripped off.

    When it is explained to them, they become apathetic, or express fear of reprisal from TPTB.

    Fourth,  Most people, even when it is explained to them, cannot seem to think of money creation in any other manner than through indebtedness.  They can't think in terms of wealth.
    It seems that they feel their belief system is being destroyed.

    Fifth,  Other nations are really starting to have second thoughts about buying our debt.  The value of our dollar had decreased immensely since the passage of the federal reserve act.

    Sixth,  Our foreign trade deficit is out of control.  There is definitely an imbalance in foreign trade. Our inability to compete on the international markets is obvious.  We have, and are still, losing high paying jobs to the cheap labor of our foreign competitors.  Our companies are moving to those countries, and yet expect to sell their products to Americans that have been displaced, and have taken lower paying jobs.

    Seventh,  We are rapidly losing our manufacturing base.  We have become mainly a service provider economy. We don't manufacture much anymore.  We have allowed this debt building system to foster the gradual killing of our own markets.

    Eighth, This system was designed for most businesses and people to eventually fail. Many individuals and businesses have resorted to ponzi schemes.  Fraud is rampant.  Unaccounted for government tax dollars, such as the disappearance of 8 billion in one hundred dollar bills in Iraq.  I am sure there are more instances. Think of all the corporate fraud and bailouts.

    Finally, this system will build debt to the point that just servicing the interest on total debt, will surpass total gross consumer income.  At that time, man will not be able to afford to pay his taxes.  Government will not be able to honor it's contracts with corporate America.  The stock market will crash.
    The IRA's, 401K's and pension plans invested, will go down the drain.

    Timetable:  Unless the government finds another type of stimulous package to delay the inevitable, I believe that collapse will come before 2015.

    Just my 2 cents worth.


  3. profile image0
    china manposted 13 years ago

    It is not your companies moving as in packing up and going, they are slipping away bit by bit through International trading, of their goods and their share ownership etc. - most big companies are International anyway and are only notionally fixed or part of any country - mainly for protection of one kind or another from the areas they have under aggressive economic attack. They have no financial dependency on the country of their origin and therefore no patriotism or 'home' there.  Most of the big names are already invested heavily outside America with your  money - Dick Cheney among them.

    Countries may fall in an economic collapse but the Companies will be largely immune.

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      China man,  My 2 cents worth was intended to show how our fractional debt monetary system, and for that matter, most countries in the world that have central bankers, are teetering on the brink of economic collapse.

      While I realize that most corporations have no allegiance to any nation, it seems that they have no trouble in knowing where to beg for bailout monies. 

      You can bet that AIG, Bear  Stearns,  Enron, BofA, Citigroup, and many others had international offices or at the very least, international ties.
      They knew where to come to beg however.

      How many companies must we bail out?  Chrysler twice, and now GM.
      These entities are international in scope.  I do not for one minute, believe your statement that, "Countries may fall in an economic collapse but the companies will be largely immune".  I believe that a great many of the stalwarts will fall. 

      Why did we have to bail out so many banks?  What happened to Lehman Brothers?  While a lot of the corporate world is intertwined, it may be that the health of any corporation will be only as good as it's counterpart's health. 

      If the economies of the world were working properly, we wouldn't be going through the upheavals that the PIIGS are going through.  It is obvious that their businesses are not weathering the economic storms of the world, so they cannot be immune.  More bailouts on the horizon for this nation's credit card?


      1. profile image0
        china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        I agree generally with all you are saying -
           my point is that Companies like AIG, Bear  Stearns,  Enron, BofA, Citigroup are not the people who own them, and the people who own them can either slide their 'portfolio' to another company if the 'name' goes down and buy the remainings from a.n.other company - or split big companies into 'divisions' that are based in other countries. Most of these companies should be owned by the taxpayer as the taxpayer has paid for them, some of them several times.  The people with the big money are invested in 'foreign' companies all over the world and can play a country for cash, as I believe has happened with Bush and Cheney corp.

  4. Ralph Deeds profile image64
    Ralph Deedsposted 13 years ago

    Most economists say that the American economy is recovering after nearly collapsing thanks to Wall Street Bankster excesses, regulatory failures and a variety of moral lapses and bad business judgment in the mortgage and construction industry.

    Here's a link from this morning's paper to an interesting article on Lehman's failure--

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/busin … f=business

    1. profile image0
      china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ups and downs ?  the excesses you are describing are simply passing money or assets up to the very rich whether they go up or down - only the middle players and the tax payer get burned.

      1. profile image0
        jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        IF there is a winner, there has to be a loser.  If there is a buyer, there has to be a seller.

        You are correct when you say that only the middle players and tax payer get burned.

        The privileged few are the ones benefiting. That is why I say that we are killing our own markets.  The money gravitates to the wealthy under this debt system. The middle players and tax payers end up with less expendable income.  If we can't buy, they can't sell.  this sets off a series of cost cutting measures.  First, cutting quality, followed by wage and benefit cuts, then hours worked cut, then outsourcing and/or moving company to another country.  Now they can make their products cheaper, but they have cut the ability of their target consumers to purchase, through the cost cutting measures mentioned above.

        The privileged  few can only purchase so much.  It is this debt system that is to blame.

  5. Sab Oh profile image57
    Sab Ohposted 13 years ago

    We would do well to insulate ourselves now from the big correction coming for China's economy.

  6. Arthur Fontes profile image76
    Arthur Fontesposted 13 years ago

    At the same time that the Toyota recall scandal broke Japan bought huge amounts of TBills from China.  Japan is now our largest creditor.

    Why would Japan buy our debt?

    1. profile image0
      china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Japan, like China, buys your debt because your economy would collapse if they didn't.  Making profit can only happen if goods are being sold and bought, if you guys stop buying then there is no-one to sell to.

      On top of that, if they allowed your economy to really crash, as happened in the 30's, you have a habit of going to war and you still have the most 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' as far as I am aware.

  7. Sab Oh profile image57
    Sab Ohposted 13 years ago

    Because we are the world's largest economy. It is a safe place to keep $

  8. TheSituation profile image63
    TheSituationposted 13 years ago

    How many conspiracy theorist can there be in one forum?  Go get your aluminium foil hats on...

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The situation is, that you haven't anything to contribute to honest debate. 
      That is why people like you resort to comments such as yours above?

      If you are so brilliant, please enlighten us with your assessment of how our economy has achieved the unsustainable amount of debt over the decades. Please explain how this debt monetary system works, in detail,
      from money being created to money being extinguished, and the effects of interest on the masses.

      We anxiously await your pearls of wisdom. Now don't run away.

      1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
        Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        None of our best economists have said that our debt is unsustainable. It was higher at the end of World War II as we were going into a sustained period of full employment, economic growth and prosperity. What is the basis for your assertion that our debt is unsustainable. I might agree that continuing to INCREASE the debt at the current rate of increase is unsustainable, but that's not what's going to happen.

        1. profile image0
          china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          At the end of that war there was such a huge world-wide re-building programme and markets were expanding so that all the economic models worked. In a contracting market the models do not work - we need new models because the only way to force the model on the world is another war, and this has been the pattern in the past where the face of war is one thing but the underlying reason is economics.

        2. profile image0
          jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Ralph,  You say that you might agree that continuing to INCREASE the debt at the current rate of increase is unsustainable, but that's not what's going to happen.

          Please explain why our debt has grown by trillions.

          Please explain why, in most cases, one breadwinner cannot support a family.

          Please explain why the average person or family is so deeply in debt to their credit cards, and why their share of our nations debts are so high.

          Please explain how you can pay down debt with dollars that are created as debt. 

          Aren't we simply just transfering our debts to someone else under this debt system?

          Please explain to us what is going to happen, if we continue to operate under this same monetary system,  where without more indebtedness, we would be without a medium of exchange.

          You seem to think we will not collapse economically.  Why?  How do we pay down debt?  How do we compete and still service our debts, on an uneven playng field?

          1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
            Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Our debt has grown for several reasons:

            1. Bush tax cuts for the rich and failure to collect taxes owed by corporations and others.

            2. New Bush programs adopted without money to pay for them--e.g., the give-away to the drug companies in Medicare.

            3. Cost of stupid, unnecessary war in Iraq $711 billion.

            4. Cost of questionable war in Afghanistan to date--$259 billion and growing--

            5. Escalating unfunded cost of Medicare due to a variety of factors including the growing prevalence of "for profit medicine" where doctors make money from ordering unnecessary tests and surgical procedures some of which are actually harmful to patients.

            6. The popularity of government services and the unpopularity of taxes to pay for them.

            7. The escalating military budget despite the fact that the Cold War ended 20 years ago.

            8. Government waste and Congressional pork.

            9. And most recently the economic recovery (stimulus) program which has prevented a deeper, longer recession or possibly a depression.

            1. profile image0
              EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              All of this has no doubt contributed, but the debt started escalating long before Bush (I know I keep banging on about my graph but if you look at it you'll see that things really took off debt-wise in about 1980).

              In any Western country you'll find that a large proportion of government spending (and hence debt) is on things like welfare benefits and pensions (whether pensions for public sector workers or State pensions (= Social Security in America?)).  Regardless of whether you agree with such spending, you have to admit that there's no "return on investment" on it, unlike with - say - roads or education.   

              Like I've said elsewhere, a picture is sometimes worth a thousand words:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._ … Y_2007.png

              You hope.  Personally, I have my doubts.

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
                Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Your're right the debt started to go up around 1980 thanks to Reagan's tax cuts and star wars expenditures. It continued up under Bush I and then declined under Clinton and resumed it's upward climb under Bush II and Obama.


                Note how much higher it was in 1945 after the huge debt incurred during World War II. This debt didn't sink our ship however, and the nation entered an era of unprecedented prosperity, aside from a period under Carter when inflation got out of control, that continued pretty much until 1980.

                1. profile image0
                  EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Aaaargh... You're STILL doing that "debt as a percentage of domestic product" thing.  I would rather look at a graph that gave me the ACTUAL debt (albeit corrected for inflation) than one giving debt as a percentage of an artifical construct.

            2. profile image0
              jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Ralph,  I will go along with much of what you attribute to the increase of our indebtedness.

              I however believe that you still cannot get past money being created as debt to the people as the main problem.

              I have in my possession, letters from the treasury, the federal reserve, and the library of congress, that explains that all money is created through the (EXTENSION OF CREDIT) from private commercial banks.

              This means interest bearing loans, with no money created to pay the interest on the loans, unless someone else borrows more, and spends the debt principal of their loan into circulation, making it available for others to capture through commerce, enabling them to pay their interest to the bankers.  This system forces more and more borrowing, just to have a medium of exchange.  The contraction of credit by the bankers was the cause of the 1929 crash.  That alone proves that if we do not borrow, we begin an immediate collapse.

              Other borrowing is done by congress.  They can borrow on the credit of the people of this country. 

              All money is debt!

              Even the economic stimulous that supposedly saved us from depression, was laid on the backs of the people.  The stimulous didn't actually accomplish anything more than transfer the debt of the bailed out businesses, on to the people. 

              Every cent we have in circulation, in checking, in savings, invested in pension plans, etc., is debt to someone.  If there is a winner, there has to be a loser under this system.

              Federal reserve notes, are just that,  (NOTES).  A note is an IOU.  An IOU is not final payment.  That is why I say that we do not pay off debt, but just transfer it to others, who have had to borrow, making the money available for us to pay our bills.

              Can you accept that this is the way this fractional banking debt system works?  Can you tell me how we can pay debt with debt?  If it's possible, why hasn't our national debt been paid?  Why has the government put a nearly 3 trillion IOU in the social security fund?

              1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
                Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                So far as I know the government hasn't defaulted on its debt and is not expected to in the forseeable future. That's why other countries buy it as the best safe haven in the world for their money. Now, I'm not saying that in the future if we don't stop spending so much more than we're taking in in taxes, either by cutting expenses (two wars? military budget? government waste?, unnecessary or non-cost-effective programs) or raising taxes or a combination of the two our credit won't be damaged. None other than Michael Kinsley expressed doubts about this and whether the goldbugs may be right in this month's Atlantic. We should be pay attention to what the bipartisan Concord Coalition headed by Pete Peterson and Bob Kerry is saying.

                http://www.concordcoalition.org/learn/d … ional-debt

                1. profile image0
                  jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Ralph, No the government has not defaulted on it's debt yet.  We however, are facing higher and higher taxes to just service the interest on that indebtedness.

                  We don't pay down the debt, so how long, at the current rate of expansion of debt, will it be before servicing the interest on that debt becomes impossible?

                  Remember, no money was created to pay the interest on all of that borrowing, and more money has to be borrowed and spent into circulation, so it exists for people to capture in their paycheckis, enabling them to pay those increased taxes to service that debt interest.

                  1. Ralph Deeds profile image64
                    Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    jerryl, are you aware that U.S. taxes are among the lowest and most regressive of the advanced industrialized countries?

        3. profile image0
          EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          No, it wasn't:


          Scroll down to the graph with the red bars.

          1. profile image0
            jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Felicity,  I am confused.  No it wasn't what?  What is it that you are referring to? Is it Ralph's post?

            1. profile image0
              EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              It was in response to Ralph saying "None of our best economists have said that our debt is unsustainable. It was higher at the end of World War II."

              You're not looking at this in the abominable "Threaded" view, are you?  Switch to "Chronological" - you'll get a better idea of who said what in response to whom.

              1. profile image0
                jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Felicity, I guess I was looking at it wrong.  I did read that revealing link you supplied.  Keep up the good work.  If more people would do the research, it would be great. 

                All of my research comes from the treasury, the fed res, the library of congress, bankers and economics professors themselves.

                With the bankers and professors, it usually comes after we have them up a tree during an extended debate.

                1. profile image0
                  EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  The weird thing is that I consider myself to be very unlettered when it comes to economics - I've just read bits here and there on the Internet, plus one or two books by people like Murray Rothbard.  And yet when I watch pundits on the TV news or read the papers (even the so-called "quality" papers) I can spot some of the howlers a mile off.  How is it possible that someone can study economics to PhD level and get a university job in the subject, and yet not be aware of the stuff that you and a couple of other people here are talking about?

                  1. profile image0
                    china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    ou should not be too surprised about that - economists talk economics and politicians talk anything to get what they want.
                    It is the same with philosophy, philosophers often cannot see the wood for the trees, just like anyone else deeply into their subject. I have given lectures on all the different languages used by different disciplines - using over 20 to explain a fairly simple point - and all still in English.  These guys are often oblivious to things anyone can see.

                    Too look with common sense often is to see the King without his clothes. I see the phrases they use mostly, like 'negative growth', these apparently simple words mean that for any of their models to work economies must be expanding, or growing, all the time as the base line. someone wrote a book more than 20 years ago about this and they predicted this crash as inevitable and maybe the end of the economic models we use.

                    On another note I see things here in China that make me realise how much unneccessary profit added value there is in everything western from a visit to Hospital here. I got a possibly malignant mole checked, removed and on my way home in less than 90 minutes from walking in without an appointment. In the UK the tiers of unneccessary people and appointments take 3 or 4 months just to get through if the specialist can be dragged from the golf course in  his rolls Royce.  Also here, they rang me 3 days later to tell me it was benign, no fuss, no appointment, just a simple phone call.

                  2. profile image0
                    jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Felicity,  Have you ever given much thought to (WHO DECIDES WHAT GOES INTO THE BOOKS ON ECONOMICS THAT ARE USED TO TEACH OUR STUDENTS)?

                    You would be surprised at how many economics professors cannot think of money in terms of being an evidence of wealth to the people.  They can however, completely understand that money must be an evidence opf debt to the people. 

                    My friends and I have had many debates with these so-called experts.  It doesn't take us long to have them at bay, up a tree, not knowing how to answer our questions.  When this happens, they usually demand that we leave their offices.  It's like we are destroying their belief systems. 

                    Many politicians are actually afraid for their physical safety.  They have told us so.

                    I would like to send you a link that deals with this topic, created by some of my friends that have been studying this topic for 25 years, and lobbying for monetary change for at least 14 years.  However, hubpages has rules against that sort of thing.  If there was a way to get it to you, I would.


    2. profile image0
      china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      In response to the idea that this is conspiracy theory - - -

      This is not conspiracy theory - it is economics.  Let me put it in simple words for you -

      The US and most of west has bought more than it has sold for over twenty years - if this was you, you would be deep in debt, you probably are like many others.

      So your country is in deep doo-doo and can only operate because China and Japan are lending you the money to bail you out.

      But you cannot compete with any outside manufacturer - sorry I used long words, I meant to say - US can't make stuff cheaper so you will stay in deep doo-doo.

      The huge countries that make up the Asian economies are going to be top dog, together they already are in many ways.  So you will have to learn to live poor.

      1. Sab Oh profile image57
        Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        It seems you don't understand economics much either

        1. profile image0
          jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Sab Oh, 

          What is your answer to our financial problems?

          Others are elaborating, or at least trying, why not you?

          Is the economy going to collapse?  Why or why not?

          I want to be able to better understand your position on this topic.

          1. profile image0
            china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            He is ok - he has a credit card to keep him safe big_smile

          2. Sab Oh profile image57
            Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            "What is your answer to our financial problems? "

            If I knew that would I be here chatting with you? It's not so simple that this thread is going to solve it. But don't worry, it's not going to "collapse."

            1. profile image0
              jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              Sab Oh, You say "But don't worry, it's not going to collapse".
              Now you try to turn it around on me.  I knew you wouldn't answer.  Well'
              read on.  Now is your chance to show your stuff.

              I will take your word for that, if you can explain how to stop this nation's debt  from growing?  Even during the Clinton years, we didn't even balance the budget.  We in essence, boprrowed from Peter to pay Paul.

              How are you going to pay off our debts with debt dollars?

              I have given my solution to our economic problems on another thread.

              Now, where is your solution?  Give us some quotes we can look up, to verify your statements.  Do you have any documentation?

              Lets hear it

              1. profile image0
                china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Jerryl you are wasting your time talking to a troll with no ideas of its own, no ability to reason and no life experience.  You should just ignore it and talk to the people on here who will discuss the issue rather than reply to the troll's pointless baiting.

                You are making all your well thought out points with clarity and detail, it is not necessary to have to repeat yourself - the troll is not trying to think or argue, just making smart ass comments for reasons of its own.

                1. Sab Oh profile image57
                  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  "and no life experience."

                  There you go again. Insecurity

                2. profile image0
                  jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  China man,  You are absolutely right.  I will ignore this illiterate shill for the banking interests.  I believe it is his intention to screw up any meaningful thread.  Keep posting, I look forward to your thoughts.

                  1. Sab Oh profile image57
                    Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Ok, CL, tell me exactly when it will "collapse" so we can congratulate you on your foresight when it does. I'll make it easy on you - just give us the year. You can do that, can't you?

                  2. profile image0
                    china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Like you I question economics experts and professors, they seem to behave more like the religious experts and professors that I get to talk to just as frequently.  Some of them even use the same phraseology and refer to 'faith' in this or that.  Maybe it is because the issue is at a fundamental level in the reasoning, they cannot imagine any system that is not profit based. It is after all how they earn their dollars.

              2. Sab Oh profile image57
                Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                "You say "But don't worry, it's not going to collapse"."

                That's right, it's not. The sky isn't falling, although I know it's much more exciting to think it is.

  9. MikeNV profile image67
    MikeNVposted 13 years ago

    The debt model is designed to collapse on itself.  It's not sustainable.

    Who collapses first?  The EU or the United States?

    It's all coming.  Nothing is being done to prevent it.  As those who control the debt model are unwilling to share the wealth.

    Unfortunately what is happening is those people are acquiring title to all the hard assets and property.  So when it does finally collapse they will legally own everything.  So when it's rebuilt after the collapse they will still be at the top.

    It's always been this way and it will always be this way.

  10. profile image0
    jerrylposted 13 years ago

    A friend of mine has been lobbying our state legislature for monetary change. 

    One of the legislators is a banker by profession.  My friend brought a ficticious financial statement to him for advice on whether he could get a loan with his current finances.

    The banker/legislator read the financial statement and told my friend that he had no chance of getting a loan. He said my friend was so far in debt that it was hopeless.

    My friend then told that legislator to (CHANGE THE THOUSANDS, TO BILLIONS AND TRILLIONS), and he would have the financial statement of the USA.

    The legislator still would not support monetary change, unless the bankers would give him the OK.

  11. MikeNV profile image67
    MikeNVposted 13 years ago

    For those who don't understand how the money supply works and who controls it... take a moment to do a little reading:

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? … ;aid=10489

    It's not about Bush or Obama or programs.  It's the system itself.  The Fractional Reserve Banking System is not sustainable.

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Mike, I would like to get a link to you also.  I know you would appreciate the work that has gone into the site that my friends put up.

      While lengthy, it is very informative. 

      I know you understand the problems, but you may get even more incite from the site.

      Let me know how I can get it to you.  I have no other motives than revealing the truth about this fraud by deception, and educating as many people as possible.  That is the only way we can rescue this nation, unless it's too late already.

      1. profile image0
        EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Put the link on your profile - saves you from sending out loads of emails.

        1. profile image0
          jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Check it out..

          Scroll to bottom and read from bottom to top.

          New additions are always added to the top.

  12. JON EWALL profile image60
    JON EWALLposted 13 years ago


    The ECONOMY and HEALTHCARE Reform Special Live From WASHINGTON
    on Saturday 3/20/10 EXCLUSIVLY on Fox News cable at 10:00am to 12:00 ET time

    A program regarding healthcare reform '' LIVE AND UNCUT '' direct from Washington , hosted by Neil Cavuto.

    BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE? Try not to miss it. Will congress pass a bill against the will of the people? Will it be the party or the people if a vote is taken?

    The program is only on FOX NEWS and wondering if excerpts will be shown or even discussed on the main street media .The only question remains if Pelosi got the votes required to pass the bill? Either way, it should be an interesting program.

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I have little or no interest in anything put forth by FOX NEWS.

      Fox is not fair and balanced!  Any debates I have seen on Fox has usually been extreme right wing politics.  Their pundits have their say, then shout over opposition, no matter what their political leanings, demo or independent.

      I would watch most any other network, albeit, with a huge grain of salt.

      I consider most media as controlled by TPTB.

      In my opinion, they are just furthering the gladiator games to keep the masses dumbed down.  More smoke screens.  They will dodge the real issue, (WHY IS IT WE HAVE TO BORROW TO HAVE A MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE)?

  13. DanPowers profile image48
    DanPowersposted 13 years ago

    I've been to the US (NYC) and China (Wuhan). I'd say the US is in big trouble. The Chinese are getting an education, their companies are rapidly moving up the value chain. Americans are largely sitting around watching American Idol and waiting for the next government handout.

    It's not just China the US should fear - look at the number of successful hubbers from India. Look at the traffic this site gets from India. Money is moving East.

    The Chinese and Indians have started off doing our manual/boring jobs. But they are learning to think, to stand on their own feet.

  14. Will Apse profile image88
    Will Apseposted 13 years ago

    Capitalism has been pretty resilient. But it's no where near as stable as economists like to imagine.

    There was a lot of nonsense that national financial institutions like the Fed had finally found the tools to tame the business cycle and that markets were now 'perfect' in their ability to price goods and services. The housing bubble and the near collapse of the banking system proved that was an illusion.

    The greatest threats in the longer and medium term though are environmental. Resource issues like food shortages, oil price spikes, water shortages, climate change can and probably will destabilize whole countries and markets. Political fallout like job losses, stock market panics can amplify every issue.

    When you hear politicians talking about 'living in an uncertain world', 'the challenges ahead' etc they are more than just cliches.

    We have been fortunate to live through a period of great stability since WW2 that, historically speaking, is very rare.

    1. kephrira profile image61
      kephriraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you about resources Will.As countries like China, India, Brazil and so on get richer basic commodities like oil, gas, food and so on will have to get much more expensive. I can't remember the exact statistic but if everyone consumed resources at the rate America does now we would need something like 10 or 20 planets to sustain it.

      So if those emerging economies keep growing - which it looks like they will - the established economies of America, Europe etc will end up with a smaller piece of the pie. It's just not possible for them to get much richer without us getting poorer because of the inescapable limit on certain resources.

  15. Will Apse profile image88
    Will Apseposted 13 years ago

    It is technically possible to create a sustainable world economy that will give everyone a decent standard of living. The problem is that the established energy giants and creators of our life styles have been very successful so far at blocking the change over. They would be the great losers.

    Governments understand the issues well enough but cannot bring the changes we need in the face of entrenched interests.

    If change can happen now or at least soon, our civilization could have an unlimited future.

  16. JON EWALL profile image60
    JON EWALLposted 13 years ago


    The bubble will burst AND WE SHOULD NOT SURPRISED because our government is not telling the American people the truth about  the deficit and the national debt.

    Unemployment of 14.9 million people isn't filling the treasury as projected.

    1. salt profile image60
      saltposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      thats a high unemployment figure to work with - and if the bubble has burst, I hate to suggest it, but maybe it was the past government that let the bubble be blown up until it was almost at breaking point and checks and balances should or could have been put in place earlier.. you cant blame Obama for George.

      Also, if you keep bagging the man whose been given the clean up job, your not going to get far and you might end up with someone worse than George.

      Sometimes such times are the beginning of new industries and better lifestyle choices.

  17. salt profile image60
    saltposted 13 years ago

    it is apart from an economic system, a belief system.. do you believe it will collapse, well, you can help create that outcome, or you can look for ways it can work.

    Economics can be a reflection of current social values.. Look at what you value and you will find if you fit that in as a variable to your economic thinking and you might come up with an answer.

    What type of country do you want to create?

    1. profile image0
      jerrylposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Salt,  Good post, However, nothing can be accomplished until the government comes up with a monetary system that allows money to be created as an evidence of wealth to the people, rather then an evidence of indebtedness.  This will never happen while the federal reserve and it's fractional banking system is in charge of our money.

      We have to first earn money, then spend it into circulation.  Currently, all M1 money in existence, has been borrowed by someone, at interest, and then spent into circulation.  No money has been created to pay the interest on the billions of loans.  That interest cost has to go somewhere.
      It usually shows up in higher taxes and cost of living. 

      While I applaud your idea of looking for ways to make things work,  it is impossible to pay debt with debt, and monetized debt is all we have to use as our medium of exchange. We are mortgaging to death our future productivity, and leaving the mess for our children and grandchildren.

      The answer is to educate as many people as possible to the fraud by deception that is being perpetrated upon them by our current system. 
      Most people have no clue as to how money is created and how it gets
      into circulation.   If they knew the facts, there would be a lot of angry voters out the incumbent puppets of the bankers.

      There is an answer, but nothing will change until we break the hold over our elected officials that the banking lobby has on them.


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