An eloquent, accurate summary of Arizona’s border situation.

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   Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years ago

   Arizona Republic
   
   It won't sit well with the "they's all illegals" crowd, but this is what effective, humane immigration policy sprouts from.

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      Raven1001posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Most people would agree that any country has the right to enforce their immigration policy, it's the method of that enforcement that is most often debated.
        What  I do agree with is that our current policies aren't working And even if I'm not completely easy with this new law, something has to be done. If my choices are this or staying as we are, I would definately give this a try. ARE there other solutions ? 
      What are the other suggestions that have been passed over?

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Comprehensive reform.  Current law dismisses the economic and demographic realities behind the problem.  Many more immigrants will be allowed in under the reform that is coming.  Palin, Rushbeckity et al will fight it tooth and nail, but it will happen.
         
         Our country is experiencing a transformation in culture unseen in the past 100 years.  You have to be blind not to see it...
         Moronic not to appreciate it.

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            foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It would be nice if there was diversity in this transformation. Right now there is no diversity. It seems to be very one-sided. For example, why not allow starving African children into the U.S.? I've never seen a starving Mexican child.

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   MikeNVposted 13 years ago

   Politicians Failed?  Not surprising.  Immigration is a bipartisan issue that has been completely ignored for decades.
   
   The mainstream media is currently only picking up on the minority not the majority view.

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      Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not ignored, suppresed.  More immigration equals more votes for Democrats.  Republicans will continue to demonize these people as long as it's in their political interest.

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         wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You're probably right in that more immigration means more votes for Democrats.  But what does that have to do with illegal aliens?  Or are you indicating that they, too, vote democrat?
         
         If, as you seem to say, the nasty, terrible Republicans have been suppressing congressional action for all these years, then it is time for the Democrats to act.  Unfortunately, there is no indication that such a thing will happen.

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   MikeNVposted 13 years ago

   I don't think the people in the border communities look at this as a Democratic or Republican issue.  I'm not in Arizona but close enough.  I get down that way once in a while. We have lots of them here... and nearly every night there is another report of crime tied to them.
   
   The shear number of illegals is alarming.  And while there may very well be some great immigrants who are here illegally and doing good things for themselves and the country there is a large element that is not... they are committing crimes and causing plenty of trouble.
   
   How do you know the difference?  Can you look at a person... any person and know if they are good or bad?  Not really.
   
   So what the people of Arizona are doing is simply forcing their Politicians to take action.
   
   Guys like McCain are so into the celebrity of Politics and hanging out in Washington that they have lost touch with their local communities.
   
   I'd like to see some unbiased National Reporting?  How many are actually in the country? I read an estimate of 580,000 in Arizona!  Plus 15-20 Million nationwide.  How much do they produce vs consume?  How many are tied to criminal activity?
   
   On one side you have people fed up with crime and blaming anyone with dark skin, on the other side you have people who are constantly playing the "rights" card. Is anybody right?
   
   What do you do?  The Federal Governments policy of ignoring the issue is why this is happening.  No other country in the World puts up with illegal entry to their country.
   
   I support the people of Arizona in their right to Govern their state.  Is it right or wrong?  That's up to the people of Arizona to decide.

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      Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      A violation of civil rights is NOT a state's issue.

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         Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No one's civil rights are being violated by the passage of this law.

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            Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That will be determined by the courts.

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               Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               FEDERAL courts, I would venture to say...

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                  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Great. I respect your decision to withold judgement on the subject until then.

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                  foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  How can the federal courts make that determination when they refuse to get involved in ACTIVELY enforcing their own mandate? That's totally hypocritical. First, the federal gov. starts assisting Arizona in curbing illegal immigration and cross-border penetration of private armies. Only then will federal courts have any say in the matter.

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         Rochelle Frankposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         We are not responsible for maintaining the civil rights of all of the people in the world. The US civil rights laws apply to US citizens. We would expect our law enforcement to treat all people humanely, because there is also such a thing as human rights.
         People who are here illegally do not deserve the same legal, civil, lawful benefits as those who went through legal processes.

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            gmwilliamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            +1.000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, IT'S ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE, MUCH WORSE!

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   lovemychrisposted 13 years ago

   The Future of Freedom Foundation’s Jacob Hornberger:
   
   What lots of Americans don’t realize is that the new Arizona immigration law simply extends to the entire state the requirement that darker-skinned, poorer-looking Americans along the border have had to live with for decades — carrying their papers, just like people in totalitarian countries have to do...
   
   ...Historically, one of the great features of American life has been the unrestricted right of people to travel, trade, and immigrate freely between the respective cities and states of our nation. Internal passport checks are a dark blot on this great tradition. Like the Soviet Union itself, they should be dismantled and tossed into the dustbin of history.

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      salcha00posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Well Said.  I applause your intelligence.

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      IzzyMposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It is the law here in Spain that you carry your papers, and Spain isn't totalitarian
      The Spanish have a nationality card, expats like myself must carry passports.
      If stopped by police, they have the right to ask to see it.

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      foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You're absolutely correct. But there's one flaw in your logic: These immigrants are also demanding the same rights as citizens; demanding free medical, educational, and welfare access; and are responsible for an increase in crime. Quite simply, Arizona and other states can no longer afford this. By the way, we do have a terrorist problem.

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   wildernessposted 13 years ago

   Unfortunately, I can't see much, if any help, from the Arizona law.  Nor do I see any help from a national ID.  Any ID we come up with will simply be copied and used just as they are today.  Even an implanted chip would not be hard to make - just slightly more expensive.
   
   The real problem is that these people have too much incentive to cross our borders, and that is what must be changed.  After all, they have everything in the world to gain:
   
   Free medical care
   Free food
   Free, or nearly free housing
   A great (by their standards) job
   Little or no taxes
   Free education, and in their own language!
   Even free transportation home IF they're caught.
   
   All of this needs stopped.  No freebies at all.
   
   And finally, when caught they need stripped of everything their illegal jobs have gotten them.  Cars, TV's, homes - everything they have worked for, right down to the clothes on their backs.  Bus them to the appropriate embassy....in Washington D.C. Let either their own government or our federal government take care of them.
   
   The only real alternative I see is to actually control our borders.  After all, Germany did it after the war - all it takes is a good fence and thousands of troops instructed to shoot to kill.  Can't say I think much of that option.

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   Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years ago

   Indianapolis Star

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      wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      As Mr. Carpenter states in one of his early paragraphs, he's not an expert of Arizona.  Doesn't live there, visited once.  Enough said.

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         foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         So are there any hubbers who are living in Arizona? Let's hear from them.

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            Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Live here, work here, and associate with many of these "criminals".  Arizona would be much worse off if they all decided to pack their bags and leave.

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            Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            How about this particular Arizonan?

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         Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Anyone who could read the editorial and pick that out as the salient point is very...........

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   Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years ago

   AZCentral.com
   
   Law enforcement and government officials on the border tell their story.

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      wildernessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Now all we have to do is triple the number of cops so there is one everywhere you look and we'll be reasonably safe from smugglers coming across the Mexican border. 
      
      Of course, it won't do much for the number of illegal aliens flooding the country, but we can afford to support another 20 or 30 million.

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         foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Once again: Where's the diversity? These liberals are crying about diversity so let's see some. Personally, I'm tired of Hispanics crying foul whenever another group of immigrants gets priority. There are millions of starving children in this world. Let's give them a chance at the American Dream.

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   MikeNVposted 13 years ago

   I don't know why this is news to some... but I suppose it is.
   
   Illegals are NOT citizens... thus they do not have RIGHTS under our Laws.
   
   Hard to figure why people can not grasp this simple concept.
   
   Illegal is NOT a race either!  The color of your skin doesn't make you illegal... your lack of citizenship does!
   
   I'd bet that if pasty white people were walking around on your property late at night and you called the police you would expect them to investigate the same as if dark skinned people were walking around your property at night.
   
   Why people can not separate Race from Illegal is astounding.
   
   I suppose in the pretend world of Illegal Worship we would just abolish police all together.  Wouldn't want to have anyone actually enforcing the law would we?

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Why people can not separate Race from Illegal is astounding."
      
      Not astounding, just crassly and transparently political.

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      Padrinoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'm pretty sure Civil Rights are extended to anyone here in the U.S., illegal or not.

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   Doug Hughesposted 13 years ago

   I am going to try to make this simple enough even a teabagger can understand. I will use small words and try to speak slowly. There are millions and millions of hispanic CITIZENS in this country. Racial profiling- which singles out a group for special harassment is illegal. It's discrimination. However skillfully you want to dance around the law - pulling spics outa line and demanding papers IS the intended procedure.
   
   Those of us who fought the Bush torture doctine (iIt's not really torture because the victims aren't christian.) see the same word games here. We arem't targeting hispanics, we just aren't worried about you if you look German, Italian, British, Irish, etc.
   
   If you go to the airport, you go through the same screening procedures. EVERYBODY! This law REQUIRES that officers use discression demanding papers of any man, woman or child whom they 'suspect'... If you want convince me that there is no profiling - rewrite this to do random basis with the same non-discressionary procedures and you can sign me up.
   
   So a soccer mom gets hauled down to the station because one of the kids doesn't have his papers - and they spend the afternoon waiting there until dad can get free to drive home and find a birth certificate and let this happen on a regular & totally random basis with NO consideration of eye color or skin tone. Then when the shrieks hit the editorial page, it will be clear  - the police were supposed to get THOSE people. The law was never supposed to apply to ME!!!!
   
   I am NOT out to defend or protect illegals - but I am fiercely protective of LEGAL Americans of hispanic origin.

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      foreignpressposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Right now the Arizona law is the only way to handle this. Mr. Hughes, if you have a better idea let's have it. And I don't mean some utopian ideal called "immigration reform." Arizona is in a desperate situation and needs answers now -- not in five years. The easy answer is to hold employers accountable. No jobs = no illegal immigration.
         If anybody has a better idea to stop illegal immigration without hurting somebody's feelings they will have my vote as President for 2012.

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         blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         maybe getting lazy americans with a poor work ethic to take over many of the jobs those "illegals" are more than willing to take on, thanks to their strong work ethic, would be a start.

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            Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            False, offensive, ridiculous generalizations

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               blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               it's rather amusing to see you using words like false and ridiculous.

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                  Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  It must be nice to be so easily amused.

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            LegendaryHeroposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            It's not about work ethic, it's about money. Employers hire illegals because its cheaper.

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               Buck Steinerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Too true! But don't expect Blue Dog to understand that.

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            Madame Xposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Lazy Americans? Oh, you mean those who think the government should take care of them?

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         Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Call me Doug. The one point of agreement is holding  employers accountable. That's going to be more effective than policetactics of demanding identification from dark-skinned people.  I was not kidding. If AZ wants to implement this law TOTALLY EQUALLY - everyone is 'under suspicion' - and everyone without papers gets hauled in - then great.
         
         I made it clear in comments earlier in the day with Absolute Poet (who's a smart guy) we will HAVE to come up with reliable method which we  mandate employers use. This gets close to a national ID, a concept which many find offensive. I understand, but without it we are asking the cops to play whack-a-mole with illegals,  catching and deporting while the business of smuggling people booms and the employers reap the benefits.
         
         This isn't the only ingredient of reform - but it's the KEY ingredient. Without it, any law is a dog and pony show for the peasants - designed to fail.

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "I am going to try to make this simple enough even a teabagger can understand."
      
      Childish silly names? Come on.

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      Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "I will use small words and try to speak slowly"
      
      You're typing, not actually speaking.
      
      
      "There are millions and millions of hispanic CITIZENS in this country. "
      
      There sure are, and they are a highly valuable part of the fabric of our nation.
      
      "Racial profiling- which singles out a group for special harassment is illegal. It's discrimination."
      
      And this law does not call for that.
      
      "pulling spics outa line and demanding papers IS the intended procedure."
      
      Using a racial epithet does not make your (false) point any stronger and is in fact highly offensive and inappropriate.
      
      
      "iIt's not really torture because the victims aren't christian."
      
      No one ever said that. You are eroding your credibility with silliness like that.
      
      "We arem't targeting hispanics, we just aren't worried about you if you look German, Italian, British, Irish, etc. "
      
      The law concerns the problem of illegal aliens. It does not specify any nationality or race (no matter how much YOU want it to).

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      Padrinoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Why do you write such long and meaningless posts? You use more words than anyone I have ever seen and you never say anything of value.
      
      You are boring!

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         Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Padrino - if you can't understand what I'm saying, that's not my problem.

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            Sab Ohposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            He didn't say he didn't understand. Read more carefully.

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            blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            careful there, doug.  you're dealing with the legendary tex (with a little t)/padrino/buck steiner (bs).  definitely a man of many hats, even if they carry little substance.

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    Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years ago

    How about these guys?

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