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Is a common sense approach to immigration even possible?

  1. TheSituation profile image70
    TheSituationposted 7 years ago

    I just finished writing a hub on this topic and I am wondering if people out there think that we will be able to come to a consensus on a common sense approach to immigration or is this topic just too emotional for serious rational discussion?  Thought?

    1. qwark profile image58
      qwarkposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Situation:
      If you are serious about this question, I urge you and all others who respond to your query to watch this very impressive and scary movie about immigration and it's effects on the USA.
      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid … &hl=en

    2. goldenpath profile image73
      goldenpathposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      No, because people passive and apathetic attitude sucks these days.  It's part of the behind-the-scenes conditioning that has succeeded.  Let Enforcement do their job with the manpower they need and we, as a nation, would be at least respected for the integrity of our word.  It's a shame to let the issue linger because of the that segment's vote.

    3. Instrumentally profile image60
      Instrumentallyposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Anything that's common sense never succeeds with the government we have currently. They refuse too do anything logical and it's why we have so many problems currently. So I'd say no it's not possible our government could care less about Illegals coming through because it benefits there agenda anyway. Illegals become good little socialist always expecting handouts.

    4. solar.power profile image56
      solar.powerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It depends upon a number of factors unique to the country of origin and the country of settlement. Every case is different

    5. psycheskinner profile image83
      psycheskinnerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I choose to be optimistic.  As a legal alien resident int he US I think many people here are too pessimistic, too combative and not as grateful as they should be for what they have here.

      1. rhamson profile image76
        rhamsonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        The funny thing is that your statement implies that we should be grateful for something for which we fight.  Liberty and freedom are always on the table when you involve a government entity.  The rights of the many are waged against or in concert with the needs of the individual.  It is an endless and ongoing struggle for a free society.

    6. rhamson profile image76
      rhamsonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Probably not as it becomes a pawn in far more lucrative deals for the "Slime on the Hill" to negotiate their muck.

    7. ChimPhungHoang profile image56
      ChimPhungHoangposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      We have laws.  We simply need to enforce them.
      By the way, is it just me or is there a problem writing new hubs?  I can post pics but the text boxes are not working.

  2. MikeNV profile image82
    MikeNVposted 7 years ago

    What is a common sense approach exactly?

    Laws are enforced or they are not enforced?

    Who is to decide which are enforced and which are not enforced.

    This applies to all laws.  If someone breaks into your home and steals your possessions should the law against property crime be enforced or not enforced? Should it be enforced for some and not for others.

    What is the point in having laws at all if there is no enforcement?

    Apparently only those who pose a "threat" will be deported... and who makes that decision?

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    The mother of a Maryland second-grader who questioned First Lady Michelle Obama about the Obama administration's immigration policy will not be deported, federal officials said Thursday.

    Immigration and Customs Enforcement will not take action against the mother, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

    “ICE is a federal law enforcement agency that focuses on smart, effective immigration enforcement that prioritizes criminal aliens who pose a threat to our communities," spokesman Matthew Chandler said in an e-mail. "Our investigations are based on solid law enforcement work and not classroom Q and As.”"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    But back to common sense.  Does it make "common sense" to spend $4 Billion a month chasing Afghan Cave Dwellers and at the same time do absolutely nothing to secure our borders?

    For every little girl who is hear illegally while her mother does housework for one of Obama's buddies... there is a bad guy who is importing illegal drugs and participating in home invasions.

    Can you tell the intentions of a person by looking at them?

    1. qwark profile image58
      qwarkposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Mike:
      Click on the site I sent and watch that movie!
      If you are not serious about what you just wrote then reject it.
      If you are, dangit!...watch it!

    2. profile image59
      foreignpressposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The illegal immigrant mother question was a setup. It was designed to give Michelle Obama a chance at the limelight. Notice how quickly M. Obama responded to the question. It was a tough question, but she had a quick, ready-made answer. More BS from the administration and, of course, the leftist media took the bait.

  3. wilderness profile image98
    wildernessposted 7 years ago

    I do not believe you will find any kind of consensus in the near future.  For purposes of this discussion there are three groups of people:

    1.  A group of people that hate the very idea of different cultures coming into the country.  They will reject very nearly all immigration.  Fortunately a very small minority that no one pays much attention to.

    2.  A group that recognizes (often from personal experience) the damage that is being done by unlimited immigration (I include illegal aliens).  This group is beginning to fear the future and what is coming unless policies change.  They may welcome immigration in limited quantities but totally reject it in large numbers. 

    3.  A group that absolutely requires unlimited immigration.  These people are generally one of two minds; those that demand that America support the rest of the world and end it's poverty on moral or religous grounds and those that use immigration to meet it's own financial ends.  Either way, the unyielding insistance on unlimited immigration can only exacerbate the fear of the second group.

    Fear and rational thought do not make good bedfellows.  The fear is beginning to cause a backlash on immigration and the group is taking actions that should only be done by the federal government.  This will inflame the third group and often strengthen it's resolve that we help stamp out poverty by bringing the poverty here.

    Neither moral/religous beliefs nor greed make very good partners with rational consideration, either.  Neither one can be shaken from their chosen path and will continue to vehemently oppose any actions to limit immigration in the slightest.  This, in turn, will inflame the second group. 

    Bottom line is that no one will compromise at all until the country is in ruins or one group gains such strength that their views control.  At that late point it becomes only a question of which non-rational, uncompromising "solution" will win.

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Wow, very thoughtfull responses all!  I really appreciate that.  I know that many have strong feelings on this, but  these were all great!

  4. TMMason profile image70
    TMMasonposted 7 years ago

    In the immortal words of Barrak Hussein Obama...

    "ADIOS AMIGOS!!!"

    I say chip 'em as we deport them and if they ever enter the country illegally again.... detonate the chip.

  5. JON EWALL profile image71
    JON EWALLposted 7 years ago

    TheSituation

    Arizona Immigration Law SB 1070 doesn't take effect until July 29th so there is plenty of time for anyone who is not a legal citizen to leave Arizona for points unknown.

    There has been many untrue statements about the law that is UN American and irresponsible by people serving in the government and other radical groups such as labor unions, ACLU and special interest immigration related organizations.
    One can read the Arizona Immigration Law on foxnews.com/yourworld, it's about 12 pages long.
    A recent pole taken showed that 70% of the citizens of Arizona supports the law as written including recent amendments.
    July 29th will be D-DAY for illegals in the State of Arizona for some. There are roughly 300,000 illegals in Arizona, how many have children born here ( automatic citizenship )remains to be seen. Many are in the school systems, how the school population will be effected remains to be seen. There are 130,000 children learning English in special classes in the school system today.

    The problems are all political and the government not enforcing the law is guilty of breaking the law of the land. The people need to ask their public servants '' why is the government not enforcing the immigration laws ''?

    The Constitution is the foundation of our government. Each and every public official including President Barak Obama took an oath of office to defend the constitution and the laws of the land. Public officials in Washington continually remind us that '' We Are A Nation Of The Rule Of Law''.
    President Barak Obama, Attorney General Holder and each and every member of Congress ARE GUILTY of aiding and abetting the law breaking illegal aliens who have entered our country without the proper papers.
    America wake up, it's time for our government to close the border, stop the catch and release program and enforce the laws with imprisonment according to the law.

    PS There is an empty prison in Illinois for starters.

    Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
    A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
    assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
    encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any

    US Constitution, Article II, Section 1
    THE OATH OF OFFICE:
    "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

    SIMILAR FOR ALL PUBLIC SERVANTS

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Great stuff!  I really appreciate the information!

  6. Doug Hughes profile image59
    Doug Hughesposted 7 years ago

    A common sense approach is not possible.

    The Nazis won't be happy with anything less than a police state and concentration camps. The liberals aren't going to allow this country to degenerate into an Orwellian nightmare.

    There are common sense legislative solutons that wold require compromise on both sides.  One side is unwilling to compromise for political reasons & because they have made Mexicans in America what the Jews were in pre-war Germany - the source of all problems.  It's sad, sick and twisted.

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Last time I checked Jews were not climbing fences to get INTO Germany in pre-war Germany.

      1. qwark profile image58
        qwarkposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Situation:
        Did you download that site I sent?
        If you didn't and reject looking at a movie which is so salient to the question you ask, then I can only think you are not really serious in your concern.
        Those who have watched it, agree with me, that it hits the point directly and powerfully.
        It is scary!

        1. TheSituation profile image70
          TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah it is!!

          1. qwark profile image58
            qwarkposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks for watching it!

        2. Don W profile image83
          Don Wposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You keep emphasising the view that "it's scary". Haven't I seen you in the forum criticising religion for being irrational. Yet here you are implying that fear is an acceptable basis on which to form domestic policy. What gives?

    2. wilderness profile image98
      wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      And we see the problem.  One side is Nazi's that want a police state with concentration camps becoming an Orwellian nightmare.  They won't compromise because of politics and Mexicans have become modern day Jews from pre-war Germany.  They are sad, sick and twisted.

      I assume, with the totally truthful and non-inflammatory rhetoric that must be side you're on?

      Or could it be you're on the other side that will certainly compromise as long as there is unlimited immigration past, present and future?

      1. TheSituation profile image70
        TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I agree that there is a lot of hate-mongering out there.  But saying that is the entirety of the side that is for securing the borders is like saying that everyone who sympathizes with those who  are here illegally are either open-border nuts who want to re-take the US for Mexico.

        I think that most rational people know that we can not deport 12 to 20 million people and also that we can not keep allowing ANYONE who wants to across the border.

        1. wilderness profile image98
          wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          That was kinda my point about the hate mongering.  Rhetoric like that doesn't do any good at all - just makes the other side mad.

          I'm not so sanguine about the impossibility of getting rid of aliens, though.  Certainly we can't get rid of 100%, but I believe we could come close with sanctions on any aiding or abetting, such as employers, friends, relatives, etc.  By the same token, we will never stop 100% from crossing the borders, but could come much, much closer than we currently do by removing the reason to come here in the first place.  No income of any kind rather removes the concept of a better life.

    3. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      As usual a rant without a shred of proof!

      You constantly complain the rich are not paying their fair share at the same time you promote unlimited immigration. You are for bringing an unskilled labor force to the US that will work cheaper than those that are skilled. That allows the rich in this country to earn more than they would otherwise, do you not see that you are just making the rich you hate so much, richer?

      1. Cagsil profile image60
        Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Hey Bill,

        I do not mean to rain on your parade here, but the problem is larger than a singular type workforce? Unskilled laborers do become skilled by experience.

        However, what the Skilled laborers should do to counter the problem, can be found in a hub I wrote about Joblessness in America(not self promoting, but clarifying).

        There plenty of misconceptions and one of those is what is the best way to utilize the Economy operating in America. This singular lack of knowledge is causing most of the problems.

        This is KEY to the future of America and is larger than just immigration problem. Our workforce is the most expensive in the world- Why? What exactly is still made in America anymore?

        Those who do have jobs, do not go anywhere with their job. It is a dead-end departmentalized position. Every company is broken down into such stagnant jobs, that the concept of wealth is literally stripped from the minds of the workers, so as to crush their dreams of living a quality life.

        So, I'm not sure immigration is as bad as claimed and I'm claiming to know. What I do know? Is that the workforce of American who do want to work, must work at a specific pay grade, just to live, which is obvious too much for businesses operating in America's borders. Thus, why they out-source overseas.

        Just a thought. smile

    4. TMMason profile image70
      TMMasonposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      "The Nazis won't be happy with anything less than a police state and concentration camps. The liberals aren't going to allow this country to degenerate into an Orwellian nightmare. "

      Yes Doug we must stop the left... (we all know nazis are left wing)... but to equate Oby to Hitler is a bit harsh. Even for you doug...

      I know he is all about the dictator thing and all that.

      But you really think he is the next Hitler?

      And yes we know the Left wants to legalize them for additional votes...

      okay if you say so... Obama is Hitler and the left is nazi germany... we must stop them. I agree.

  7. DevLin profile image61
    DevLinposted 7 years ago

    Yeah, I wrote a hub about it too. Being a gringo in Arizona, I thought I could add to the debate. Common sense would be treating themas illegals again, for starters. Unfortunately, reality is, you're not going to deport 12 million people. Especially to a country with no money or work. They probate american felons, do mexicans. With a fine. $2-5K one, how will that help the deficit? 12 million at 5 grand? Two, it gets them off welfare. My God, we'd be saving money.

    You all forget, they have kids already in college. They're americans, getting educated to do even better than their parents. Those of you arguing about patriotism, how about the illegal that got in the marines, and then deported after winning a purple heart from a battle in afghanistan. He thought he was american. Bush wanted the illegals in 2000. Now that we have the economy melted down, everyone has decided it's time to kick them out. Rather hypocritical. Fine them, kick them off welfare. Make and save money. That from someone surrounded by illegals. I even got laid off so they could keep working. But, I'm a realist. you'll never get them out of the country.

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with some of this, but the last part about Bush wanting them so it is now hypocritical is pretty inaccurate.  Many people have had a huge issue with the un0holy alliance of those who exploit the cheap labor that comes with illegal immigration (businesses and the wealthy) and the open-borders/racial/La Raza/Catholics activist groups that want them for their own reasons.

      I have refused to donate to the Republican party for the past 4 years and voted for a Libertarian instead of McCain primarily because the Republican party had detoured so badly from their values.

      1. DevLin profile image61
        DevLinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        1999- Bush pushed to get the illegals amnesty so the latinos would vote for him. It worked.

        McCain tried to do the same in 2003, so they'd get the vote again. Now he's against them for bringing down wages. I already know this,

        I work construction. I went from a $20 and hour job to $8, or out of work. They all wanted them, now they don't. Odd though, they fought over who screwed up the amnesty in 2003, so the dem's could get credit for at least trying to get it. Politicians suck, no matter what party.

        1. wilderness profile image98
          wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I agree in that the whole immigration thing has become a political tool for re-election instead of what is needed for the country.  Sad, but that's the politicians we have today, and indicative that we will not get a solution any time soon unless the people take it into their own hands.  Arizona started - others are joining in.  Just might be faintly possible our politicians will learn that we, the people, need some help here in solving a problem.

          1. DevLin profile image61
            DevLinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            That's the point. They don't see it as a problem. How many of them have been busted with illegal housekeepers or nannies? How many own businesses, and use illegals?

            We have a sanctions law in Az that punishes employers for hiring illegals. A senator from Prescott added an amendment, they could be contract workers. He owned 3-5 McDonald's burger places, and needed his staff. They ended up not having to pay any taxes or SS since they were contract workers. Took 2 years, but the idiot was voted out.

            Politicians will first have to remember they're serving the people, before this gets settled. See that happening soon?

            1. profile image0
              cosetteposted 7 years agoin reply to this



              in what Universe do contract workers not have to pay taxes or SS? in fact, contract workers have to pay double SS.

              the only way people get away with not paying taxes or SS is if they are paid in cash.

              1. DevLin profile image61
                DevLinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                Here they're on 1099's. They have to pay it themselves quarterly. They don't. At their wages, they aren't caught as easily here. I went two years, myself. Ten years rule!

          2. TheSituation profile image70
            TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with both of you.  I have actually started to get involved in my local politics.  I think now is the time for normal people to stand up!

            Regarding the downward pressure on wages, the thing that many do not understand is that the immigrants from 5 or 10 years ago are fighting for jobs with new immigrants and this cycle will continue, there will always be another country willing to work for less and less.  This has no end, Mexico this year, Guatemala next year, India, China...can we have 2 billion people come here?

            1. DevLin profile image61
              DevLinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              I wrote a hub on it. You've had 30,000-33,000 chinese come here for asylum the last 3 years. More are on the way. I worked with a guy from chile.

              1. TheSituation profile image70
                TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                There is NOTHING wrong with Immigration.  But there is a process and it is long and hard as it should be!  Those who complete it know and care about our country when they are done.

                1. DevLin profile image61
                  DevLinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  You mentioned the 2 billion. That's all I was saying. Worked with a guy from guyana too. He was into monkey love.

  8. profile image59
    foreignpressposted 7 years ago

    There's too much at stake. This country needs the illegals. There is no way that ObamaCare can support itself with the existing (taxable) population. And Social Security will be bankrupt within ten years -- or sooner -- without a fresh influx of people paying into it.
       That leaves the illegals. So there will be amnesty prior to the 2012 elections. This will supply a fresh population of "citizens" to tax and fill the federal coffers.
       Obama is a devious man who has learned the art of deception very well. Almost too well. Pelosi is his mentor. He knew that passing health care would require additional taxpayers to support it. That's why he prioritized health care over jobs. The long-term goal is to create open borders.
       It's one piece at a time. And it's working.

    1. JON EWALL profile image71
      JON EWALLposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      foreignpress

      The social security trust fund is paying out more than it is taking  in.That means the government will have to start paying on the  IOU'S in the lock box.Where is the money coming from to pay,you guessed right,we will borrow adding  to the deficit.

      Wake up America, Washington is not telling the American the truth. The crash is coming just like Greece,California and probably most of the world.

      America, the next Socialist country, speak out before it's too late.

  9. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Until there is an honest, open binational discussion of the interplay between these two nations there will be no cease to any of this ultimately pointless argumentation...

    As long as Americans remain unaware of how their nation and their own actions negatively impact Mexico, and Mexico needs to open the political arena to its people, as opposed to only a small segment of the population.

    The corruption on both ends needs to be weeded out...and this is where the focus needs to be placed...

    But, instead, what ultimately boils down to xenophobic rabble rousing passes itself off as intellectual discourse...

    Our country does not need illegals....it needs businesses to learn to pay livable wages...and to strengthen Mexico by enabling them to model labor rights laws that protect the independent workers.... American, Japanese, South Korean, and Canadian businesses cannot be allowed to take jobs across the southern border to take advantage of cheaper labor....the workers there need to be paid what workers in the U.S. make...  Business cannot be allowed to perpetuate the international "race to tbe bottom"...

    If it costs 16 dollars minimum at full-time hours to live in the Inland Empire, then the minimum wage needs to be 17.50

    Even the entry level worker should have a taste of "profit."

    But....few I have found, of the "anti-illegal" crowd,to even stop to ponder on such a proposal....as opposed to agree with it.

    When it came to the deportations of the 1930's...which I have found referenced several times in anti-undocumented immigrant argumentation...there was not much thought about how that was carried forward either...

    At least 50% of the "undocumented Mexicans" deported from Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and many other cities across the nation were U.S. citizens....Constitutionally protected from such actions....especially without due process..

    Ooops!

    And what of their children, though born in Mexico?  Are they not, by law, American citizens?

    These are questions and topics that are kept far away from the anti-undocumented discussion board...

    The cognitive dissonance is too much to bear...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I think the real problem is, the "for immigration" crowd doesn't see that the anti ILLEGAL immigration crowd isn't against immigration we are against ILLEGAL immigration!

      That one word just blows right past most of you in your rush to label others racist!

      There is only so much meat on the bone and we should provide for our legal immigrants before we provide for the ILLEGAL ones.

      As far as business paying a livable wage is concerned the same applies, there is only so much meat on the bone, and the financier of business deserves the biggest piece.

  10. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Bill....way to dodge everything I said..

    There is plenty of meat on the plutocratic bone....how many masions do the Walton clan own between them?

    Again, bi-national solutions that benefit workers on both sides of the border...

    We ship Mexico weapons, legally and illegally...we open their markets to our products (stifling their ability to develop their own industry), and make what production they have dependent on American consumerism, as opposed to that of the Mexican population.......

    Yet we don't see fit to enable Mexican citizens to gain the same freedoms?

    Bullets, semi-autos, hand-me-down military hardware, cheap corn and college drunkards are good enough?

    I would like you to answer my comment about the illegal acts of the United States regarding the treatment of its American citizens of Mexican descent....

    When you argue about upholding the law, what do you think about this aforementioned situation?

    Please respond to it...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I don't have any knowledge of the incident so its hard to have an opinion.

  11. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Internet?

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Are we playing password?

      I'll say,World wide web!

      If you are wanting me to research the topic you want me to comment on, no thanks, you want a comment provide a link!

      and wait...

  12. Cagsil profile image60
    Cagsilposted 7 years ago

    A prime example of laziness. How nice of you? Can see you do not like to learn much, except what people spoon feed you.

    I guess at that rate, not even your opinion would be worth listening to in the first place.

    Hmmm....how sad to be you. hmm

    But, don't worry. I'm sure you'll dismiss my words, as something or another, so you can justify the attitude you display in your words.

    Then again, it makes no never mind and just thought I would take the opportunity to point out the obvious. I know, not everyone likes to see the obvious, and at times it is necessary to point them out, so everyone can see exactly what they need to see.

    Do enjoy yourself. I'm sure you will. roll

    1. Doug Hughes profile image59
      Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Mikelong said - "But....few I have found, of the "anti-illegal" crowd,to even stop to ponder on such a proposal....as opposed to agree with it."

      Conservative politicians are pandering to the 'deport first' rhetoric  and in this environment comprehensive compromise legislation is impossible.

      The first step - and I have said this repeatedly  -  is a colorblind employment verification system with heavy penalties for violators. Look at the root cause -  don't create a police state designed to hassle latinos.

      ANY legislation without that cornerstone is a Keystone Cops farce for the amusment of the clowns.

      1. Bill Miller profile image55
        Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Why is enforcing laws against ILLEGAL aliens "creating a police state"? The laws exist already, so enforcement is just the natural flow of things.

        Using words like Nazi to inflame an already sensitive issue is irresponsible.

        The liberals in Congress know that the Arizona law is constitutional and want to create an unstable situation in hopes it results in a violent conflict.

      2. JON EWALL profile image71
        JON EWALLposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Doug Hughes
        For your information Doug, two years ago Arizona passed a law which if the employer is found guilty, the employer would be fined and the companies license would  be revoked.
        The federal 1986 immigration law was exclusively to prevent employers to hiring illegal aliens.
        The government is guilty of breaking the law. one must ask are there any honest Senators and Congressman in Washington to fight for the laws of our nation.
        THE OATH OF OFFICE:
        "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States."

    2. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for your observation of the obvious, however, like Doug Hughes your gift of not knowing anything about most of what you comment on is famous.

      Now, don't let the Boston police handcuff you because Massachusetts is special roll

      Was your dismissal "obvious"?

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        You have created a novel approach to debate.

        You're incoherent and I can't refute that.

        1. Bill Miller profile image55
          Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          I wasn't debating I was clearly telling whoever cagsil is that I wont waste my time with someone who is wrong about most things.

          Why I do it with you is obvious, I love to point out the ones who have no argument other than to inflame real conversation.

          And its very telling that you skipped over a question posed to you in favor of something directed to someone else.

  13. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    No password...no games...at least not from me, Bill.

    Let us not recreate the grave errors of the past...

  14. Rod Marsden profile image77
    Rod Marsdenposted 7 years ago

    The short answer is no. Emotions get in the way of a common sense approach to immigration. At least in Australia.Infrastructure is never, ever considered except when it is way too late.

    In the 1950s plans that made sense were put together so that migrants would not only have places to stay but also work on hand when they arrived. There were plans to build a great dam and to create hydro-electric power,etc. What infrastructure there was from this period is long gone. Everything is now ad hoc.

  15. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Have you done your reading yet, Bill?

    Read through this following quotation, though....

    I want to know how the legacy of "American respect for law" relates to our actual past...

    Beginning in 1822, at least 20,000 Anglos, many with their slave property, settled into Texas. Jared Groce, one of the first of Stephen Austin's Texas settlers that year, arrived with 90 enslaved Africans.

    The Mexican Federal Law of July 13, 1824, clearly favored and promoted the emancipation of slaves. Mexico had even stipulated that it was prepared to compensate North American owners of fugitive slaves. Determined instead to have things their way, Anglos began to press for an extradition treaty which would require Mexico to return fugitive slaves.

    From 1825 until the end of the Civil War in 1865, Mexican authorities continuously thwarted attempts by slave-holding Texas settlers to conclude fugitive slave extradition treaties between the two parties. During this period of extremely tense relations between the two governments, Mexico consistently repudiated and forbade the institution of slavery in its territory, while U.S. officials and Texas slave-owners continuously sought ways to circumvent Mexican law. The Mexican authorities thwarted repeated attempts by slave-holding Texas settlers to conclude fugitive slave extradition treaties between the two parties.

    In 1826 the Committee of Foreign Relations of the Mexican Chamber of Deputies refused to compromise on the issue of fugitive slaves and defended the right of enslaved Africans to liberate themselves. Mexican government officials cited "the inalienable right which the Author of nature has conceded to him (meaning enslaved persons)." Congress member Erasmo Seguin from Texas commented that the Congress was "resolved to decree the perpetual extinction in the Republic of commerce and traffic in slaves and that their introduction into our territory should not be permitted under any pretext".

    Again in October 1828, the Mexican Senate rejected 14 articles of a newly-proposed treaty and harshly criticized Article 33, stating "it would be most extraordinary that in a treaty between two free republics slavery should be encouraged by obliging ours to deliver up fugitive slaves to their merciless and barbarous masters of North America".

    Reporting on the growing number of Anglo settlers in Texas, Mexican Gen. Teran reported, "Most of them have slaves, and these slaves are beginning to learn the favorable intent of Mexican law to their unfortunate condition and are becoming restless under their yokes …" Gen. Teran went on to describe the cruelty meted out by masters to restless slaves: "They extract their teeth, set on the dogs to tear them in pieces, the most lenient being he who but flogs his slaves until they are flayed."

    http://www.imdiversity.com/villages/his … es0716.asp

    You'll be seeing all of this in an upcoming article I'm writing about Anglo-American illegal immigration into Mexico...

    What precedents have been set, well over almost 200 years ago...what has the average American either forgotten, or not been taught?

    What is common sense, in that case?

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Its 2010! What happened in 18whateverthehell doesn't really matter, arguing about what happened then is pointless, I'm sure you know that but you think it makes a difference and somehow makes you look smarter and more in-tuned than us.

      Lets do this again, in 2010 Mexican citizens who cross over the border into Arizona stand a good chance of being sent back to their country!

      Don't like it? Too bad! That's the reality of living in the present, try it sometime, its cool.

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Bill - Living in the present is something you might try.  Your side likes to estimate thare are 12 to 20 million illegal aliens in the US and your side likes to say they are taking  US jobs. Your answer is to deport them all. How are you going to catch 12 MILLION people who don't want to be caught when you are offering NO incentive for them to come forward.  I can't say it hasn't been done. Germany may hove lost the war by misdirecting massive resources in the effort to locate and imprison abut that same number of civilian fugitives.

        Due process can take months or years depending on the case. Anyone who wants to challenge their deportation has a right to do so in 2010. How much of a backlog will there be with 12 million files stacked up. For the period of time these people are detained, the US is on the hook for food, clothes, medical care and the safety and security of these families. TWELVE million of them? You would have to build a dozen Auschwitz-size concentration camps (without gas chambers) to hold them all.

        One feature of a common-sense approcah is going to be an incentive for illegal immigrants to come forward. That suggests some kind of amnesty for some, and deportation for some others. The question is where to draw the line.  Deportation of all is a red-neck fantasy.

        1. Bill Miller profile image55
          Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          We are deporting ILLEGALS everyday without hearings or any other liberal wet-dream you concoct in your head. We do not have to entice ILLEGALS to come out and give up, where do you get your information?

          Go to any construction site in the Southwest and you will find as many ILLEGALS as you want, they can be sent back just as easily as they are found.

          We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants in the year 2010 Doug, not Jews from 1942, you do know the difference don't you?

          1. TheSituation profile image70
            TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Though I agree that we need to send back or encourage to return as many people who are here ILLEGALLY as we can, I do not think that a wholesale deportation is possible.   

            What is possible and should be done is to stop the catch and release that has been going on for years.  When someone is detained for whatever reason and they do not have a green card, visa or a native born child (i.e. a American Citizen) there should be no question what needs to be done with them.  Send them back to THEIR country.

          2. Doug Hughes profile image59
            Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Mikelong pointed out earlier -

            "When it came to the deportations of the 1930's...which I have found referenced several times in anti-undocumented immigrant argumentation...there was not much thought about how that was carried forward either...

            At least 50% of the "undocumented Mexicans" deported from Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and many other cities across the nation were U.S. citizens....Constitutionally protected from such actions....especially without due process.."

            1. Bill Miller profile image55
              Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Doug, get out of the past, can you manage that? It is 2010, if you are a legal citizen of this country there is a record proving that.

              This isn't 1930, and we will be deporting ILLEGALS just as fast as they are found, the Arizona law will speed things up. Try and stop it.

              1. Doug Hughes profile image59
                Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                So you are suggesting the imposition of a police state - every citizen will be required to prove his identity and national origin upon demand by the Gestapo.. I mean police - and will be summarily deported without a court appearance or appeal if the findings of a kangaroo court deem him undocumented.

                Your world view is a bit scarey....

                1. KFlippin profile image61
                  KFlippinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, we could all move to Mexico if we didn't like what our own country had to do to protect its citizens!  Always an option, Doogie!

                  Nighty Nite!  Got to recharge my wrist bands and put on my face saving cream.....do you have to do that?

                2. TheSituation profile image70
                  TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  So there is no other option?  Both sides need to stop using scare tactics..

                  Do you really have a problem with having ID to prove who you are?  I mean really?  This is such BS, people act like we dont allready carry ID.  I garuntee you that other than whack jobs on either end, pretty much EVERYONE has an uses ID right now, drivers licese, ID card, passport etc.  You show it to cash a check, drive a car, get on a plane, use a credit card etc.  Why do you object to this?

                  Or is it that you just think that when someone who is commiting a felony by willfully SNEAKING into our country and in many cases committing ID theft/fraud by using fake/stolen documents and personal information should just be left alone because they represent a great potential DEMOCRATIC voter block?

                3. Bill Miller profile image55
                  Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  No Doug, I suggest that the laws of this Country be enforced to remove ILLEGALS from it!

                  Do you have a drivers license? SS Card? State Issued ID?

                  The answer to at least one of those is yes, so you see Doug you already have papers, just like every other citizen of this Country!

        2. JON EWALL profile image71
          JON EWALLposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Doug Hughes

          For starters to solve the illegal problem:

          1.Deny them the use of government entitlements (meant for legal
          citizens )
          2. Children born of non citizens deny American citizenship to the
          new born

          3. No new laws  until all the existing laws are inforced . It's time
          for our congress to act for the benefit of the citizens who
          elected them.
          4.Enforce Immigration laws to the full extent of the law.

  16. profile image59
    foreignpressposted 7 years ago

    This is absolutely hideous. I would rather stay out of these arguments but this goes beyond the pale. How far back do you pro-illegal immigrationists have to go to prove a point? 1824? Get real!
       For 300 years, starting about the 16th Century, North African pirates raided European villages for white slaves and transported them back to Africa. In the year 5,000 BC, Egypt imported slaves to work on its pyramids. After Adam and Eve were involuntarily ousted from the Garden of Eden, slavery became commonplace in the Middle East. Reparations are still being sought for that.
       That was then. This is now. A whole different set of circumstances and laws existed then as they do today. The bottom line is this: Mexico has its laws regarding illegal immigration. And those laws are strictly enforced. The United States has its immigration laws and when they are enforced -- such as Arizona's efforts -- emotional liberals cry "RACISM!" and "PROFILING!" even though none of this has happened.
       The effects of illegal immigration have destroyed California. That state will never, ever recoup $20 billion -- some say $500 billion -- in deficits. Much of this is due to entitlements like welfare. Arnold has submitted a proposal that tackles entitlement programs, but the Hispanic dominated legislature in Sacramento won't pass it. Stalemate. End of game. Arizona is trying to avoid the same fate by merely enforcing laws on the federal books.
       Resorting to ancient history is lame. Saying we need immigration reform is absurd. It will take Congress years to debate and finally pass a law. In the meantime, states will go bankrupt.
       Try another approach to justify picking and choosing the laws you think need to be enforced.

  17. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    "Pro-illegal immigrant"


    How about, pro-actual reform...

    Instead of throwing around slogans about "the law"....we actually look at what that word has meant...

    Abuse....trampling on the Constitution in its own name...as in the 1930's....as in 1992, and as we may be seeing in the future...thanks to people who are more interested in name-calling and "rah rah rahing" like this is some kind of game, as opposed to looking at this problem without a nationalist slant..

    Nationalism has caused this problem...and it has been a one-sided use of this tool....

    NAFTA needs to be overhauled, if not largely eliminated...

    Mexican lawmakers and political leaders need to be given the freedom to enact laws that they see fit, as opposed to those that benefit foreign corporate interests...  Government monopoly over worker organization needs to be broken...

    And American companies, like AAMCO, and those of American allies like Japan, and Canada, need to pay their employees in Mexico what they would pay in their own nation....and not create the inequality that makes everyone so anxious.....

    And Americans need to be as worried about the illegal flow of weapons from their own nation as they are about those who are running away from where these guns are being used....

    Mexico should build it's own wall....to keep the gun smugglers out...

    America needs to be concerned about the violence, and their relationship to it....for nothing can generate a wave of immigration than a civil war....which Mexico has had to contend with ever hundred years or so....coinciding to the period of time we are now living in..

    Think about the big picture.....

  18. profile image59
    foreignpressposted 7 years ago

    The "big picture" is going to happen whether Americans want it or not. Obama has shown he has little regard for our Constitution. But the law is what it is. Immigration laws are in place for a reason. Such as: Preventing contagious diseases from entering the country; maintaining a social order based on population and productivity; in recent times, preventing criminals and terrorists from gaining access to American cities; and controlling an incessant run on welfare programs designed not for the world but for American citizens.
       The automatic weapons being used by drug cartels are not coming from the United States. This heavy weaponry is coming from Israel, China, and Eastern Europe.
       Yes, there needs to be changes made as the world evolves. But disregarding our laws -- which create social order -- and shouting racism and profiling are cheap tactics that only serve to destroy any commonsense effort to effect meaningful change.

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It not being feasible to catch all the people who has been allowed to break the law is not a logical reason to change the law, just to actually enforce it.  basic supply and demand combined with strict workplace enforcement (i.e large fines AND criminal prosecution of employers breaking our laws and hiring illegal immigrants ON PURPOSE) will remove the jobs and many of those here illegally will return to where their countries.  This has already been occurring due to the recession.  We just need to help give them a hand home and lock the door after they leave....just like then end of a dinner party....the meal is over, time to go home.

      1. JON EWALL profile image71
        JON EWALLposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        HUBBERS
        We The People demand that our elected officials enforce the laws of the US.
        President Llincoln once said '' to remain silent is to be a coward ''
        the law is clear.
        The Constitution is the foundation of our government. Each and every public official including President Barak Obama took an oath of office to defend the constitution and the laws of the land. Public officials in Washington continually remind us that '' We Are A Nation Of The Rule Of Law''.
        President Barak Obama, Attorney General Holder and each and every member of Congress ARE GUILTY of aiding and abetting the law breaking illegal aliens who have entered our country without the proper papers.
        America wake up, it's time for our government to close the border, stop the catch and release program and enforce the laws with imprisonment according to the law.

        PS There is an empty prison in Illinois for starters.

        Section 274 felonies under the federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
        A person (including a group of persons, business, organization, or local government) commits a federal felony when she or he:
        assists an alien s/he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him or her to obtain employment, or
        encourages that alien to remain in the U.S. by referring him or her to an employer or by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any
        US Constitution, Article II, Section 1
        CATCH AND RELEASE IS NOT THE ANSWER, IT DON'T WORK

  19. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Bill.......forget about the past and you will end up an ignoramus....it is that simple...

    From 1820 to 1930....the same backward...xenophobic...hateful behavior towards and characterizations of Mexicans.... In 1992...and in 2010...still not much has changed..

    Like I said Bill....you need to read about the unconstitutional treatment of American citizens of Mexican descent....and then juxtapose this to the treatment that the U.S. has given to Mexico over their entire relationship...

    There is a pattern...

    And this has not altered....  It is time for a real change...and it is time to learn about how the mistakes of the past can be undone through the halting of their modern perpetuation....

    Don't blame Mexican immigrants for problems caused by American elites....

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It is not hateful to want ILLEGAL immigrants deported back to their Country, I don't want Mexicans hurt or summarily punished simply because they are Mexican!

      I have never said anything like that, ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported!

      Study all the history you want, the problem exists in 2010!

  20. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Lincoln, while a Senator, called the initiation of hostility against Mexico an illegal, unconstitutional act...criminal..

    I wonder what he would say if he was observing how our two nations have evolved...

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      How in Gods name is this relevant at all?  Throwing Lincoln's or MLK's name into some debate with a unrelated idea they held does not give any credibility to a position.

  21. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Yes....and can you answer why?

    I can...

    Since I can answer this question, I can also propose solutions that will address the problems, as opposed to perpetuating the same failed policies one generation to the next...

    The policies of the Porfiriato are reemerging a little over a century later....how can we keep a similar result from replaying itself?

    Keep thinking that the past is irrelevant and unrelated to the present...and you will be in 2011 partying like it was 1911.....not a good thing.

    It is time to cut to the root of our binational relationship...and transcend our past...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I don't think you want a solution at all, you want unrestricted immigration and you particularly want Mexican citizens to waltz right across the border!

      The facts are that you have an agenda and you are pushing it on this website. Please continue to bring up the past and problems that occurred years ago, I will continue pointing out that we are for the deportation of ILLEGAL immigrants.

      I'm sure you will continue posting how the sins of the past are relevant, and I will continue pointing out that they are not!

      Once again, I am for the deportation of ILLEGAL immigrants, and for legal immigration to whoever wants it!

  22. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Bill....cite your source if you can..

    I want actual responsibility from law/policy makers... I want binational agreements that keep companies from taking advantage of wage differences.

    Mexican standards regarding wages and worker rights/protections should be the same....  GM should have the same standards in Mexico that it does here... 

    What is so difficult to comprehend about this?

    U.S. bound goods should reflect our standards....

    Or perhaps they already do.........

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You said
      "Mexican standards regarding wages and worker rights/protections should be the same....  GM should have the same standards in Mexico that it does here..."

      You don't seem to grasp that you cannot make Mexico do what you want them to do. What is so difficult to comprehend about this?

      ILLEGAL immigrants of any nationality should be deported!

      Your focus on Mexico and its problems doesn't make the problem of ILLEGAL immigration into the U.S. go away.

      Do you have a common sense solution or are you just going to live in the past blaming America for what Mexico does?

    2. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      companies like GM have plants in counties like Mexico is the relatively lower cost of production there.  If you had the same costs, those jobs would not be there...is that your goal?

  23. profile image66
    logic,commonsenseposted 7 years ago

    The common sense solution is to enforce the current laws or change them and enforce the new laws.  Regardless of age, gender, religion, or national origin.

  24. Bill Miller profile image55
    Bill Millerposted 7 years ago

    When found to be in this country ILLEGALLY the ILLEGAL should be immediately taken into custody and sent back to their country of origin.

    Is that so difficult?

  25. leeberttea profile image53
    leebertteaposted 7 years ago

    http://www.lucianne.com/images/lucianne/DailyPhoto/2010-05-23.jpg

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Love it!!! PROPS!

  26. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Bill....we have been "making" Mexico do what we want them to for a long....long.....long time...far before you were born...

    We make Iraq do what we want...

    We make Costa Rica do what we want...

    We topple the Honduran government to do what we want..

    We took down the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953 (Kermit Roosevelt)....so that we would continue to control their oil supply...

    Bill....you are not making any sense...

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      The foreign policy of past governments have very little to do with what has been happening with domestic policy regarding immigration.

      A Basic economics course will teach you that "exploitation" of relative production abilities (skill or cost) is beneficial to pretty much everyone.  Do you think you are doing those in Mexico or other developing countries a favor by restricting the ability of US corporations to offshore manufacturing there? 

      Or would it be better to force those companies to pay comparable wages to those in other countries even though they are far greater than what most make there and would remove any incentive for companies to assign production there?

    2. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      ILLEGALS found in this country should be deported!

      Nothing else needs to be said, we don't have to have a discussion about what brings them here!

      When found to be in the U.S. the ILLEGAL should be deported!

      Makes perfect sense to enforce our laws!

  27. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    The Honduran coup just happened over the past year and a half...

    We tried to oust Hugo Chavez from Venezuela in the early 2000's....

    These are not "past blunders"....but it is our ongoing foreign policy....

    The olwer cost of production in Mexico is there because the lack of labor rights enables them to be there....and who's construction were these?

    Keep denying reality and we will continue to repeat the stupidity of the past....

    "Situation"....why aren't those GM jobs here?  Because corporations are making our laws...ensuring that NAFTA enables them to cross borders freely with capital, jobs, and products...but not with labor rights..

    It is really that simple...

    Too many here suffer from "eyes wide shut" syndrome compounded by a horrific case of historical denial....

    Foolish people disregard the past when looking at the present and future...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, your eyes are wide shut! We do not have to discuss why! We are for the deportation of the ILLEGAL immigrant, believe it or not an ILLEGAL immigrant can be from France, Britain, Germany!

      Keep blaming the U.S. for Mexico's problems all you want!

      When an ILLEGAL immigrant is found to be in the U.S. they should be deported.

    2. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      @ Mike.  Oh, the Honduran Coup.. you mean this one?  Manuel Zelaya, introduced a referendum as a first step toward drafting a new constitution primarily to remove the term limits for presidents and allowing him to stay in office. . Opposition to the referendum was strong, with the Honduran Congress, Supreme Court and military all declaring it illegal. Zelaya fired the head of the military for not providing support for the referendum - but was thwarted by the Supreme Court, who deemed the firing illegal, and reinstated General Romeo Velasquez to his post. On Sunday, June 28th, the Honduran Army, under orders from the Supreme Court, stormed the presidential residence, arrested president Zelaya and put him on a plane to Costa Rica? 

      Hardly a coup, their own supreme court ruled what he was doing as illegal.

      Hugo Chavez is a joke and we should do everything we can to promote the end to his rule, that is in our best interest and the interest of private ownership and capital creation.

      it is so tiring to have every ill blamed on the US.  If Mexicans want better conditions then they need to take back their own country and stop blaming the DEBACLE that is Mexico on everyone else.  Stand up and take some ownership.  The US is not running Mexico, the drug lords are...but I am sure that you are going to blame that on us as well.

  28. Bill Miller profile image55
    Bill Millerposted 7 years ago

    You said
    "Foolish people disregard the past when looking at the present and future..."

    Foolish people blame others for their failure to understand!

    Deport ILLEGAL immigrants, Nuff said!

  29. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Foolish people do exactly that....and that is what you are doing...blaming American woes on problems caused by American elites....playing with domestic policies like home construction in order to manipulate markets and create bubbles that collapse....  Enron...Goldman Sachs...Citigroup...these guys keep getting away with crime....and we instead go after the lesser crime of undocumented entry...

    Backward priorities.....

    Without discussing "why" you will never be able to solve the problem...

    Last time I checked....there aren't many undocumented French or British in Arizona.....and I find it hard to believe that "reasonable suspicion" will lead a Brit to deportation... 

    Having lived in Arizona...in Sierra Vista (right along the Mexican border)...I had to pass many immigration checkpoints put up by the then INS...

    "Are you an American?" they asked when I would drive up to the checkpoint...

    "Yes."

    "Okay, you can go."

    That was the immigration check...

    What if you answer "yes" with an accent? 

    I believe it will depend on where the accent comes from....

    People can try to point to Arizona's policy as "colorblind"...but when you see that, in the same span of time, that they have also banned ethnic studies (with a focus on Chicano Studies or the Studies of Mexican Americans)...a much better context can be perceived...

    The Arizona legislature also voted to make Barack Obama prove that he is a citizen before they will let him be on the 2012 ballot...

    The totality of these circumstances clearly tell me that there are some ignorant, latently racist people making laws in that state....

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Mike, can you comprehend what you read?

      When an ILLEGAL immigrant is FOUND to be in the U.S. ILLEGALLY, they should be deported!

      Found! Found! Found!

      Get it!

    2. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It is racist to want to enforce the laws and deport the LARGELY hispanic  persons here illegally, yet it is not racist to want to protect those of Hispanic decent from the same laws?  Explain that to me.

  30. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Yes Situation....their own supreme court ruled it was illegal....and what happened?

    Did the president get reinstated?

    No.....

    Opposition to the referendum was strong...indeed....but from what camp?

    Who owns great tracts of land in Honduras???

    Start with United Fruit and work your way forward....it is foreignors...not Hondurans...not the people, who own the land...

    If our president were deposed...regardless of what our supreme court says...a coup happened.... and then we would have to ask, "who did it?"....."who funded it...who enabled it...?"

    And what media (supposedly liberal) largely ignored it...?

    The Honduran President was not "fired".....he was arrested in the middle of the night under the orders of an Air Force General (who was trained at the United States School of the Americas)...put on a plane, and flown out of the country...

    "fired"...way to oversimplify a very illegal...unconstitutional act....

    Coups are illegal...show me in the Honduran constitution where the military can oust the executive branch when they deem fit....please...

    Hugo Chavez is not a joke.....this perception  is just the creation of the "liberal" media...

    Watch "The Revolution Will not be Televised"

    What did Chavez do that made so many Americans so upset?

    The Mellon family lost their oil fields....just like they did in Iran just before the 1953 revolution..coincidentally....or not.


    Keep fighting for American ownership of foreign resources.... Imperialism is an ugly thing...and causes great harm...and too many here, especially in this forum, are blind to its reality...

    There is only one School of the Americas.....and it is only found in the United States....

    We are responsible...

    If you don't want to see, then that is your own perogative...but realize it only makes your responses weak....and demonstrates the extent to which you, as so many others, are uninformed.

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      It is so much easier to blame the ills of the world on someone else than for countries to take ownership of them.  If we control so much then how do we let the Mexican president castigate us in our own Congress?

      All of the conspiracy theories just make your arguments sound like a idealistic, leftist joke.  I seriously doubt that Honduras' Supreme Court is under our control.  And if an American president tried to change the Constitution without the proper ratification to extend the term limit, and the Congress and Supreme Court both agreed it was illegal, you better damn well believe they would be arrested and removed from office.

      But we are a country of law, and a true democracy.

    2. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You are all over the place!

      We keep talking about one thing while you jump from Mexico to Honduras criticizing Arizona citizens.

      There are 50 States that make up the United States (no matter what Obama says) and you remain stuck on one State and one people!

      Deport all ILLEGAL immigrants irrespective of their color or nationality when found to be in the U.S. ILLEGALLY!

      The message wont change no matter how many times you try and change the subject!

  31. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    "Found"...it depends on who is looking...how vigorously...and where....

    Of course...."why" still has to be answered.....and you have failed to do so Bill...

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_W96Z9U63Z8U/Sdu7cj5NcSI/AAAAAAAAFT4/RVcCn6PJMbc/s320/events_justice.jpg

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Let me clear the "why" up for you, to remove ILLEGAL immigrants from our Country!

      Somehow, I don't think that will be enough for you.

    2. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      I would say that the "why" is why some people think it is OK for those from south of the border to break the law and come here?

      If you were in line for whatever and  someone decided that they wanted to just cut in line is that OK?  It really is that easy.  You can get into the social injustice or whatever you want.  The fact of the matter is the US has made itself a wealthy, powerful nation and there are BILLIONS of people who want to come here.  Do you propose we let them jump the line as well?  I have no problem with immigration.  There is a line, get to the back of it.

  32. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Keep avoiding the larger issue...

    If only Mexico had been so aggressive in its border protection in the 1820's-1840's....American illegal immigration was the worst thing that ever happened to them...

    And then there's NAFTA....


    Of course, Bill...you have still not spoken about the illegal deportation of American citizens of Mexican descent in the 1930's....(I wonder how many undocumented Brits and French were rounded up back then...oh wait....none)..

    Again....how many American citizens were deported?

    When they came back, were they considered "undocumented" by "white" Americans?

    What of those who didn't come back...they still retain their American citizenship...what of their children and grandchildren...who are also American citizens...

    How many citizens have we kicked out, and how many have come back "illegally"?

    But, when history is either forgotten, or twisted into a false depiction, truth and actual perspective are lost...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Want me to speak about the 1930's ok, its not the 1930's and citizens of this Country can prove they are citizens.

      If they can't then they are ILLEGAL immigrants!

  33. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Except when we kick them out without looking...

    Like in the 1930's...as well as in 1992...

    Good job Bill.

    And we still disregard the American illegal immigration of weapons and corruption into Mexico...

    http://www.oberlin.edu/faculty/svolk/Arming%20Dictators.jpg

    1. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Mike, seriously, you are not debating the issues, you are screaming about all the social injustice and all the alleged abuses in the past.  Get over it.  Mexico is a cess-pit due to their own corruption and disastrous social policies.

      American citizens were interned in camps during WWII if they were of German or Japanese decent, get over it.  We did not have the identity requirements then we have now.  We can now PROVE who is a citizen and who is not.  I am sure there will be mistakes, there are 300 million people so there must be and the liberal tendency to find some sob story to whine about is a joke.  Time to grow up.  Luckily public opinion is swinging away from the PC BS that has made people afraid to speak out for so long!

    2. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      If someone is an American citizen they will be able to prove it!

      If they can't they are an ILLEGAL immigrant.

      1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
        Uninvited Writerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        So, will you now be carrying your papers with you at all times?

        1. Bill Miller profile image55
          Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Most people carry their ID's, is that the papers you mean? Do you not have some sort of Identification?

          I suspect you do, I suspect you also carry them everywhere you go!

          1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
            Uninvited Writerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I don't know about you but I don't carry my birth certificate everywhere I go.

            And I didn't say anything about Nazi Germany.

            1. Bill Miller profile image55
              Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              Do you expect that to be taken serious? An ID! Drivers License? heard of one, a birth certificate is not a form of Identification with out accompanying ID.

              Birth certificate, Most ridiculous thing Ive read all day!

              1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
                Uninvited Writerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I don't have a driver's license. What other pieces of ID will people be expected to show in Arizona?

                1. Bill Miller profile image55
                  Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Do you have a government issued ID? You have some form of photo ID, and since you are Canadian how does this issue pertain to you?

                  I'm just curious, you have every right to comment.

                  1. Uninvited Writer profile image83
                    Uninvited Writerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                    I am interested in justice. I'm also interested in that if I was visiting Arizona if my ID would be checked for any reason.

      2. psycheskinner profile image83
        psycheskinnerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Unless of course they are a tourist, or legal non-resident alien, or have an application being considered or are a refugee, or forgetful and have lost their papers, or a baby that doesn't have any yet.

        1. Bill Miller profile image55
          Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          You said
          "Unless of course they are a tourist, or legal non-resident alien, or have an application being considered or are a refugee, or forgetful and have lost their papers, or a baby that doesn't have any yet."

          Tourist from where? If from outside the US they have a passport! There are cards that legal non resident aliens get to carry! A refugee, from where, California? And again what papers are you referring to? All babies born in the U.S. have a SS number. And if there is ever a influx of babies without their parents around then maybe we will check their status roll

          Any other life form you are curious about?

        2. TheSituation profile image70
          TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          If the parents have ID then the kid is ok.  Papers...has such a  great ring does'nt it?  IT IS A FLIPPING ID CARD YOU ALREADY CARRY!

          Any yes, if you are a Mexican who is here illegally with no ID, then you get deported.  Or a Chinese or Canadian...

  34. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    The U.S. has made billions off the inequality it has created with Mexico....  Mexico is used against the United States....if American workers push for more rights...more jobs go to Mexico...  If there is the potential for bills like the Employee Free Choice Act to pass....more investment to Mexico...

    "Free trade" is not free....or fair...

    I have lived in Mexico...not in the cities...but out on ejidos....I have seen what the AAMCO car parts factories are creating...and it is not good...

    I suppose I'll have to publish an article on this...

    The issue of this whole thread is regarding "common sense" approaches to immigration....


    All this thread has proven is that there is no "common knowledge"...so therefore there can be no "common sense" approach...

    This thread transcends any Arizona law..and speaks to the ongoing evolution of immigration issues in both of these nations...

    To do this, we must understand where we have come from...only then can we figure out where our best path is for a mutually beneficial future...

    It is that simple.

  35. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    Again..."the past"...

    The past was 1 second ago...

    Don't speak as though these travesties are "gone"...or "a long long time ago.."

    Nonsense...

    Every day these issues are denied they are happening again...  Every time Americans point to "Mexican problems" and say that "Mexico needs to take care of itself" the past is perpetuated into the present and projected into the future....

    When was the last time you were in Mexico?

    Where did you go?

  36. mikelong profile image73
    mikelongposted 7 years ago

    You're howling about the bee....and are missing the bear standing behind you...

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      You are the one howling I am stating simple facts.

      Thrash about and gnash your teeth and the answer is always the same.

      ILLEGAL immigrants should be deported!

      ILLEGAL immigrants will be deported!

      And the U.S. will be a better place for it!

  37. Bill Miller profile image55
    Bill Millerposted 7 years ago

    You people keep trying your best to compare enforcing laws to living in Nazi Germany. Since you all seem to be for breaking laws then don't call the Police when your home is burglarized, don't call the police when you are assaulted, just ignore the violations of the law, that's what you are all saying.

  38. Bill Miller profile image55
    Bill Millerposted 7 years ago

    "And I didn't say anything about Nazi Germany."

    No you sure didn't, but using the "papers" line falls into the category of Doug Hughes who most certainly has.

    I'm sure you agree with all Doug has to offer, don't you?

  39. ChimPhungHoang profile image56
    ChimPhungHoangposted 7 years ago

    So is it just me or is there a problem with text boxes here now?
    I went to create a new hub and for some reason the hub text capsules don't work

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Might want to try one of the help topics in the forums

  40. Bill Miller profile image55
    Bill Millerposted 7 years ago

    You asked
    "What other pieces of ID will people be expected to show in Arizona?"


    I'm not sure what the law in Arizona is when it comes to identification, in the state I live if you have moved from another state you have 30 days to acquire a State DL or ID. They require fingerprint of one of your thumbs to renew. If you are visiting then the ID you have is just fine.

    Government issued DL and ID are almost impossible to counterfeit these days.

    The possession of a government DL ID in your name and likeness is almost a guarantee of citizenship! we don't give them to ILLEGAL immigrants, if for some reason an ILLEGAL slips through the safety barriers set up to detect scammers, well, then good for him/her!

  41. Doug Hughes profile image59
    Doug Hughesposted 7 years ago

    Mikelong - you deserve the Mother Theresa medal for Patience - trying to teach these numbskulls. All they can scream is 'DEPORT'!

    The crime of entering the country illegally they want to prosecute on the basis of 'guilty until proven innocent'. The burden of proof falls on every US citizen (with dark skin) to be able to prove on demand that he's legal.

    Got that? The premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' is turned on it's head. Everyone with dark skin is guilty from the moment they are accused unless they can prove otherwise.

    The Arizona debacle is DOA. For one thing Arizona has NO authority to deport. A real fix to broken immigration is nowhere on the horizon, but if one dies happen it will come from Congress and it will be comprehensive in nature. The ONLY approach that stands a chance of working will be built around a colorblind employment verification system and amnesty for some - deportation for the others. It's up to Congress to decide where to draw the line. Comprehensive reform means no side will get everything they want - but the resulting compromise will fix the main problem.

    1. Bill Miller profile image55
      Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      And again not a single fact just more screaming, don't you get tired of being wrong?

      1. Doug Hughes profile image59
        Doug Hughesposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Oh you want facts? Try this one. 300 BILLION DOLLARS - the estimated cost of your deportation program.

        "IF the United States deported all its illegal immigrants at once, how long would the bus convoy be?

        a) 18 miles b) 180 miles c) 1,800 miles

        Answer:

        C, 1,800. To deport the 12 million illegal immigrants in the United States en masse, it would take more than 200,000 buses, stretching more than 1,800 miles, according to a December 2009 Center for American Progress (CAP) report. (I did the math, and that would amount to 47.5 feet per bus and 60 people per bus. Of course, in real life, some people would have to be sent home via airplane.)

        The cost would be nearly $300 billion over five years, the think tank estimates. (I did the math again, and that would be 110 buses per day at a cost of $25,000 per illegal immigrant, which presumably includes the costs of apprehension, detention, legal proceedings, and transport, based on the methodology in this 2005 CAP report, which uses older numbers.)"

        http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/deport … t_of_buses

        1. Bill Miller profile image55
          Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Interesting facts, why you feel compelled to share them is odd, but interesting nonetheless!

          I have not said to start a mass round-up of ILLEGAL immigrants, I have clearly said "if found to be an ILLEGAL immigrant in the U.S. that person should be deported!"

          So, if they only find 3 van loads to the border, do you have the stat on how long that convoy would be?

          And why would anyone want to know.

          1. ChimPhungHoang profile image56
            ChimPhungHoangposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Not that I am all that interested in arguing rather than writing but I Do think we need to remember that those stats do not take into account the fact that many Americans would volunteer their services and perhaps even vehicles to assist with any significant deportation AND that people don't lie--statistics do.
            Perhaps people just need to stick with rather it is okay to be an ILLEGAL alien or not.  If one approves of this then what other crimes does one approve of--might be an interesting question.

            1. Cagsil profile image60
              Cagsilposted 7 years agoin reply to this

              The simple fact that "statistics" most of the time are dressed to portray a particular way of thinking and people do lie.

              This simply shows that too many people are plainly ignorant, with regards to why laws were put into place in the first place. Not to mention, it also shows that those who do not see illegal immigration as a problem, must not apparently understand the problem. hmm

              Just a thought.

              1. ChimPhungHoang profile image56
                ChimPhungHoangposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                I just don't understand why some people have to make the issue more complicated than it is.  We have laws and they need to be enforced.  Know what I mean?
                Everything else . . . supposed statistics, the stumbling blocks to enforcing laws . . . that's all besides the point.

                1. Bill Miller profile image55
                  Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

                  Correct! But those against allowing the enforcement of our laws want to find the bad guy they can blame,actually, I think they're grasping at straws to try and keep afloat!

    2. TheSituation profile image70
      TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for lumping us all together Doug, I appreciate it.  .....and for the Numbskull comment, also clutch...

    3. mikelong profile image73
      mikelongposted 7 years ago

      Bill....I was pulled over in Glendale a few months back....  I made a left turn onto a perpendicular running street and the next thing I new I had a black and white with flashing lights on by rear bumper..

      I stopped, and the officer came out and told me that I had a rear brake light out, and that I was in violation of the law...

      Now...I did have one light out on the left side..

      With this seemingly justified stop, if this were done in Arizona, citizenship could be demanded...correct?

      Now, I happened to have just finished helping my mother complete an online traffic course because of a recent ticket...and I remembered that someone can only be cited for the aforementioned infraction if they have less than two operational brake lights...

      As he was writing the ticket I called him over and asked him why he was writing a citation when I had two operational brake lights....  Very quickly he closed his book. gave me my license back, and returned to his car....

      No ticket...

      Now....what if I did not know the law?  I would have ended up with an illegal citation...

      When in high school, my mom picked me up from school, and she also gave a couple of my friends home..  She drove a huge, Buick estate wagon that was creme colored..

      My mom and I are "white" and my friends were "Hispanic"...just to lay that out there now...

      Just after picking us up...I mean...less than 150 feet from the front of the school where we met, we were pulled over while waiting to make a left turn onto Kester Street, a huge thoroughfare...

      We pulled over on Kester, after making the left turn, and immediately the officer was out of his car, behind his door, gun drawn yelling at us to put our hands in the air...yelling at us that if we dropped our hands he would open fire..

      To our left was Van Nuys High School....with friends of mine watching...to our right were huge apartment complexes...residents coming out to their balconies to watch..

      The LAPD showed up in force...in front of us..blocking off the entire street...behind us...all guns drawn..

      One by one they had us slowly and carefully come out of the car...my mother first....and then each of us passengers...

      Without taking up more space...the officer..who they claimed was a rookie though he was all by himself and was not wearing the "rookie" uniform (I didn't know this then of course)...had mistaken our huge creme colored boat for a red Honda hatchback....

      Aside from what they claimed was the inverted reading of our license plate...they also said that a reasonable suspicion for our treatment was because the description of the suspects were of two whites...a male and female...and two hispanic males..

      How they determined that through dark tinted windows (from behind) I don't know...

      We could have sued.....by I argued to my family in their defense....it was just a mistake..

      No....I think it was more than that....I was just naive..

      But my major point is this....is it beyond reason to make the claim that police step beyond their authority?   Bill..your words show a blind trust in law enforcement following of law...when precedent right now proves otherwise....

      I am hopeful that the Federal government will step up to the plate and make this a national debate.....  They were so quick to bail out the financial sector....who are responsible on many levels for our current condition....

      But, instead we have other problems that point the finger to corporate-governmental corruptive co-mingling off in the Gulf of Mexico....

      We need people in elected office who are passionate about the actual issues...and less interested in the corporate donation..or the post-elected office executive position..

      1. Bill Miller profile image55
        Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        It wasn't a "seemingly" legal traffic stop, it was in fact a legal traffic stop. The officer will not ask for proof of "citizenship" but rather a Drivers License.

        Brake lights aside, you are correct in the fact that some police officers will go beyond their authority, but keep in mind they are not the last authority!

        I certainly have no blind trust of law enforcement to get it right every single time but they get it right a majority of the time! No legal citizen (who can prove it) will ever be detained as an ILLEGAL immigrant longer than it is necessary to prove their citizenship, its just not going to happen!

        Do you really think that someone born in this Country is going to just sit their and offer no way to prove who they are?

      2. KFlippin profile image61
        KFlippinposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        What is beyond reason is that you have the twisted notion that it only happens to Hispanics.  Try a young blond white girl, my sister, pulled over by a black cop, ask her about that memory imprinted on her brain forever more.  Ask one of my brotherinlaws, and another sister, about their being pulled over by black cops and the bejeesus scared out of them as well as a night in lock up for nothing.  Try asking a friend of mine about a Nashville night with his girlfriend and how she was harrassed and berated and intimidated for no reason while he was hauled off to jail and they played good cop and bad cop?

        Crappy law enforcement crosses all race barriers, America is not racist, America does a better job of accomodating all cultures than any Nation on this earth. 

        You guys just keep on trying to screw that up -- I hope 20 years from now we're overwhelmed with the Swiss and the Icelanders and how about Iranians, all crossing through Mexico in a mad exodus to the Repbulic of the USA, what a refuge.  Then what will Hispanics have to say? What will thoughtless impulsive liberal Dems have to say?  What will Socialists have to say?  Around and around.

        Do you think Mexicans would be so keen on claiming Arizona or Texas as their own, stolen by the USA, what a farce, so keen on emigrating, or simply crossing, to Arizona or Texas, if it had been in Mexican hands all these many decades and decades? 

        Doubtful, instead they'd be illegally seeking refuge and work and drug deals, etc... in the states of Arkansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico, Louisiana.......hah, how interesting that would be.  Or perhaps the whole of the USA was Mexican, I imagine sympathetic Canadians would sing a different tune.

        It is the United States, it is the States of Arizona and Texas, it is the guts and glory and hardwork of the desire to be independent of kingly government, that made us what we are.  Mexico has had equal time to do precisely the same.  Their Choice.

        All these posts from the likes of MikeLong and Doug Hughes etc...are patently amusing, and insupportable accept by continued rhetoric and twisting and spreading of historical facts into anecdotal baseless arguments.  Do any of you have a clue that many Mexicans chose to stay with the Republic of Texas?  That they did not choose to be a part of a government that in short order became Royalist again?  Committed wanton murder and mayhem with no regard for any prior promises or treaties, no honor at all.   

        I didn't think so.

    4. mikelong profile image73
      mikelongposted 7 years ago

      Bill....the officer had no justification to pull me over..

      It is as simple as that.

      I have watched as the same law is enacted towards two different people two different ways....but I'll go into tha specific event another time...for I have to go to work.

      Do not blindly follow law enforcement...

    5. Uninvited Writer profile image83
      Uninvited Writerposted 7 years ago

      Sure...and police always only pull people over for a good reason wink

      1. Bill Miller profile image55
        Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        What's your point, can you cite a case of that happening in the enforcement of this law? Are you saying the police can't be trusted? What exactly is your point?

        Never mind, I get it, its just the insinuation of bad conduct by the police that you want to get across.

        Have you found your birth certificate yet?  roll

    6. mikelong profile image73
      mikelongposted 7 years ago

      I'm glad personal stories and citation of facts come off as rhetoric Kflippin..

      I have personal testimony for days....  I'll write more later..

      1. Bill Miller profile image55
        Bill Millerposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        I look forward to the irrelevant history lesson roll

      2. TheSituation profile image70
        TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Mike, I enjoy debating with you, but some of your answers are REALLY long. 

        But to the point, do you believe that nobody should have to carry ID?  Or only in certain situations, I am interested in what you actually think about that.

        1. TheSituation profile image70
          TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          Crickets?

          Seriously, anyone can answer these..

          1. Do you believe that nobody should be required to carry ID?  If not, then who needs to carry ID and when?

          2. If we allow unrestricted immigration from Mexico then would you support unrestricted immigration from all African nations, China, India, Central and South America as well?  If so, then should Mexico be required to allow unrestricted immigration as well?

          1. wilderness profile image98
            wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            I really hate the idea of requiring ID at all times. However, I have to carry a drivers, hunting and fishing license, plus a license for my job.  I realize that only the DL really qualifies as an ID, but it all amounts to "it's legal for me to do what I'm doing".  I also have 1 of 3 car registrations nearby most of the time.  Library card.  SS card.  Passport.  Birth Certificate. House title.  Tax records.  Been printed to work at the cop shop.

            I guess bottom line is what's one more to be carried all the time?  It doesn't really make that much difference; Uncle Sam already has his hooks into me pretty good.

            Back in the 70's I helped a co-worker with his SS when he retired.  Black man, born in the 1910's I guess.  Born on the side of the road, no birth certificate, given to a neighbor.  Lied about his age at 15 to get in the army.  The SS people finally took the record on the fly leaf of the family bible as proof of identity and age.  I kind of long for those days, but I think they're gone forever.

          2. wilderness profile image98
            wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Oh, and I forgot.  Unrestricted immigration from anywhere is simply ignorance speaking.  America cannot support the world and anyone willing to actually think realizes this.  Plus, if it's from Mexico, that would mean the rest of central and south America - Mexico would simply shove their own illegal aliens further north.

    7. Eaglekiwi profile image80
      Eaglekiwiposted 7 years ago

      In response to OP..no common sense died about the same time greed was born ie lawyers needed  now to fill out a form...
      wrong...wrong...wrong!

    8. tfhodge profile image59
      tfhodgeposted 7 years ago

      I assume we're really talking about illegal immigration.  Immigration is an historic American tradition.  Other than the Native American, who else can say, with true moral authority, who is and is not an immigrant?  The U.S. government is not separate from the people.  Thus, if one blames the government, one is also blaming the collective body of citizens.  We support a system of government which allows those with the most money, power and influence to steer the actions of elected public/political officials - for better or worse.  We entice illegal immigrants to this land by offering low wages in exchange for [hard] labor most of us choose not to perform.  Consequently, we invite the recurrence of illegal border crossings.  Illegal immigration was a well kept secret until the negative elements, which permeate throughout many aspects of culture and life, began to overwhelm the sanctity of peaceful living.  No matter how many 'Band-Aid' fixes one attempts to cover the ugly scars of illegality, the deep wound will heal once we determine, once and for all, what is morally appropriate with regard to the exploitation of peoples'.  How much do we wish to pay for an orange?  How willing are we to pick our own fruit?  Who is willing to pay the nanny hire wages?  Our politicians do as we allow them to......or not.  Great hub!  I enjoyed reading the insightful responses.  Thank you.

    9. mikelong profile image73
      mikelongposted 7 years ago

      I typed up a response last night before going to sleep..and I thought that I has posted it...

      I was just really tired.

      With that said

      I do believe that people should carry identification, if for no other reason than for personal safety.

      I believe that people already in this nation who are undocumented need to be, on a case by case, evaluated in terms of their longterm status...no carpet blanket schemes like "deport them all."

      That is ridiculous.

      I see the DREAM Act as a viable, actionable plan that will mutually benefit all Americans.

      Walls, immigration agents, and more defense-related spending will not solve this issue.

      How does the United States stem the flow of immigration from the south?

      I believe that the more Americans learn about their nation's policies in Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, Guatemala, Panama, Chile, Peru, Venezuela, Columbia, Cuba, Haiti...the entire "Monroe Doctrine" world...the better solutions we can create.

      I will write more..but I have to go asap...

      1. TheSituation profile image70
        TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Mike,

        Thank you for the answer.  Very well thought out and to the point.  I agree with much of it.  I agree that a blanket statement on either end is not the answer, either to legalize them all or deport them all.

        I agree that we need to work on assisting those to the South, we do give VAST amounts of money and aid, but much of it goes to Military and anti-drug programs, which may be noble, but when you are starving, you do not care if you food comes froma  drug-lord. 

        However, I also think that we must secure our own borders in order to ensure the safety and security of American lives and property.  These can be done in conjunction, but we must do both.

    10. lovemychris profile image62
      lovemychrisposted 7 years ago

      Deportation Nightmare: Eduardo Caraballo, US Citizen Born In Puerto Rico, Detained As Illegal Immigrant
      First Posted: 05-25-10 12:09 PM   |   Updated: 05-25-10 05:46 PM

      "Eduardo Caraballo, a U.S. citizen born in the United States, was detained for over three days on suspicion of being an illegal immigrant.

      Despite presenting identifying documents and even his birth certificate, Caraballo was held by federal immigration authorities over the weekend and threatened with deportation, according to an NBC Chicago report. He was only released when his congressman, Luis Gutierrez -- a vocal supporter of immigration reform -- intervened on his behalf."

      get used to it....hope you white people in AZ don't get too tan!!

      1. TheSituation profile image70
        TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

        Ok, so lets play that game.  How about these?  I will take your handfull of people incorrectly harrassed.  How about you give these families back their loved ones?


        Kendrick Owens, 13



        Son, innocent seventh-grader

        Allegedly killed by

        Javier I. Correa, 29

        Javier I. Correa, 29 an illegal alien with a history of crimes in the U.S.  (including assault and DWI) dating back to 1999, was  arrested last March for allegedly killing 13-year-old Kendrick Owens on March 6, 2010.

        Correa  is accused of driving drunk on March 6th and running over Kendrick Owens, a seventh-grader about one week before he was to appear before an immigration judge on another charge.  Witnesses allege that after Correa struck the young boy with his vehicle, he callously fled the scene, leaving  the child to die.

        Correa has been charged with multiple felonies, including intoxication manslaughter and failure to render aid.

        OJJPAC note:   It is outrageous that Javier I. Correa was never removed by ICE after each of his previous arrests and convictions.  Now a young boy is dead, and everyone in law enforcement and the courts who failed to have him deported after he completed his sentences  have this child's blood on their hands.  Unfortunately this injustice is typical because too many politicians are more concerned with getting Latino votes than protecting the rights of American citizens and U.S. soverignty.

        Source: Drunk driver on ICE hold was wanted by feds , By Kassia Micek, Conroe Courier News, Houston Community Newspapers, 5-1-10



        Jeremy Seay

        Newlywed

        Allegedly killed by

        Freddy DeLeon Perez, 23

        Freddy DeLeon Perez, 23,  an illegal alien living in Alabama, has been indicted by a grand jury on two counts of felony manslaughter and a single felony count of failure to stop at the scene of an accident which killed Jeremy Seay and his wife Angel.  Perez is currently in jail and District Judge Paul Sherling set bond at $1.2 million for the two fatalities and fleeing charge.

        Witnesses stated that Seay and his new bride died after Perez allegedly pulled in front of the Seay's motorcycle, causing a collision, after which Perez fled the scene in his Chevy truck.

        Forensic Investigators later linked debris at the scene and on  Seay's body to Perez's truck, which was later located at a body shop. 

        The Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has placed an immigration hold on Perez in case he attempts to post bond. 

        [OJJPAC note:  Like so many other cases, Perez had been cited for driving without a license but evidently was not taken into custody and turned over to Homeland Security for deportation.  Now two Americans are dead and their families will have to bear the cost of our governments failure to secure our nation's borders and take the security problem of millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. seriously.]

        Source: Illegal immigrant indicted by grand jury, By Mellisa Braun, Southeast Sun, 12-23-09

        Angel Seay

        New bride

        Allegedly killed by

        Freddy DeLeon Perez, 23

        Freddy DeLeon Perez, 23,  an illegal alien living in Alabama, has been indicted by a grand jury on two counts of felony manslaughter and a single felony count of failure to stop at the scene of an accident which killed Angel Seay and her new husband Jeremy.  Perez is currently in jail and District Judge Paul Sherling set bond at $1.2 million for the two fatalities and fleeing charge.

        Witnesses stated that Angel Seay and her  new husband died after Perez allegedly pulled in front of the Seay's motorcycle, causing a collision, after which Perez fled the scene in his Chevy truck.

        Forensic Investigators later linked debris at the scene and on Jeremy Seay's body to Perez's truck, which was later located at a body shop. 

        The Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has placed an immigration hold on Perez in case he attempts to post bond. 

        [OJJPAC note:  Like so many other cases, Perez had been cited for driving without a license but evidently was not taken into custody and turned over to Homeland Security for deportation.  Now two Americans are dead and their families will have to bear the cost of our governments failure to secure our nation's borders and take the security problem of  millions of illegal aliens in the U.S. seriously.]

        Source: Illegal immigrant indicted by grand jury, By Mellisa Braun, Southeast Sun, 12-23-09



        Jurgen Dietmar Cheston, 48

        Grant Writer for North Carolina Juvenile Justice Dept.

        Allegedly killed by

        Manuel Salvador Zamora Diaz

        Manuel Salvador Zamora Diaz,  a suspected illegal alien living in Raleigh, North Carolina, has confessed to the murder of 48-year-old Jurgen Dietmar Cheston, of Kinston.

        Cheston was employed as a grant writer for the Department of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention in North Carolina.

        The Department of Homeland Security has an immigration hold on Diaz because authorities believe Diaz is in the U.S. illegally.  Diaz is currently jailed at the Wake County jail.

        [OJJPAC note:  I suspect that Diaz has a previous criminal history and was being shielded from deportation by the Department of Juvenile Justice.  Someone in North Carolina needs to research the circumstances of this murder and if a defacto or official sanctuary poilicy was in part to blame.]

        Source: Man confessed to stabbing grant writer to death, By Thomasi McDonald, News Observer, 12-09-09



        Darness Brown, 10



        Daughter, sister, elementary school student

        Allegedly killed by

        Leticia Flores, 28

        Leticia Flores,  a suspected illegal alien was arrested last week in the death of Darness Brown, 10, and the injury of her thirteen-year-old sister Darneisha Ellis.

        Flores is accused of running the children down in the SUV she was driving.  Witnesses allege that after Flores hit the children, she stopped to yell at the children for being in the street and then drove away [typical behavior of illegal aliens].  Flores was arrested by police when she stopped at a convenience store.  It was reported that Flores does not have a drivers license.  Bond was set at $1,000,000.

        Source: Boynton Beach girl: Hit-run driver stopped to scold us as my sister lay dying, By Michael La Forgia, Palm Beach Post, 12-8-09



        Beverly Duffield, 74

        Psychologist, hospital volunteer, mother and grandmother

        Allegedly killed by

        Roberto Torres, 28

        Roberto Torres,  an illegal alien living in Tulsa Oklahoma, has been arrested and faces charges that include negligent homicide, leaving the scene of an accident, driving without insurance, and running a stop sign, causing the death of Beverly Duffield, 74.  Duffield was riding her bicycle when she was killed.   After Torres allegedly ran the senior citizen down with his vehicle, he cowardly left the scene of the accident without having  the decency to stop to render aid or call 911.

        Torres was only caught after police were able to obtain  video of the accident.  Police also found out that Torres was not only living illegally in the U.S. but working illegally as an insulation installer at Sinclair Refinery.  So much for security at U.S. refineries.

        The local District Attorney believes that if Torres is found guilty, he will spend a few years in prison and then face deportation.  (OJJPAC note:  Too little too late.)

        Source: ABC News Channel 8, Tulsa, Oaklahoma, 9-2-09; Tulsa World, Cyclist hailed as 'a good person' By Nicole Marshall, 9-3-09



        Sandra Zarafontis, 59

        Allegedly killed by

        Rafael Cardenas Camacho, 37

        Rafael Cardenas Camacho,  an illegal alien believed to be from Matamous Mexico is wanted in the August 18, 2009  hit-and-run death of Sandra Zarafontis, 59.

        Witnesses to the accident accused Camacho of running Zarafontis over and then driving off erratically, leaving the victim without rendering and aid or calling 911. The witness to the crime called 911.

        Police believe Camacho may have returned to Mexico to avoid capture.

        Source: Suspect named in fatal hit-and-run accident, By Tim Olmeda, Record Star, Robstown, TX, 8-24-09



        Daniel McKenzie, 58

        Husband and father

        Killed by

        Maria Garcia-Sanchez, 29

          Illegal alien Mexican Maria Garcia-Sanchez, pleaded guilty this week to reckless homicide for the May 6th head-on crash that killed 58-year-old Daniel McKenzie and McKenzie's 65-year-old wife.

        This wasn't Garcia-Sanchez 's first run-in with police.  It was reported that she had multiple prior convictions for driving without a license and also had a prior conviction for driving without insurance.

        Garcia-Sanchez, who has been illegally living in South Carolina, was sentenced by Judge Brooks Goldsmith to eight years in prison.  She will likely be deported back to Mexico after her sentence is served.

        Source: The Herald, Rock Hill, South Carolina, 9-2-09

        OJJPAC note:  Another instance where illegal aliens have been caught and convicted of crimes but are not deported until they kill or murder someone. 

        Maureen McKenzie, 65

        Wife and mother

        Killed by

        Maria Garcia-Sanchez, 29

          Illegal alien Mexican Maria Garcia-Sanchez, pleaded guilty this week to reckless homicide for the May 6th head-on crash that killed 65-year-old Maureen McKenzie, and her 58-year-old husband.

        This wasn't Garcia-Sanchez 's first run-in with police.  It was reported that she had multiple prior convictions for driving without a license and also had a prior conviction for driving without insurance.

        Garcia-Sanchez, who has been illegally living in South Carolina, was sentenced by Judge Brooks Goldsmith to eight years in prison.  She will likely be deported back to Mexico after her sentence is served.

        Source: The Herald, Rock Hill, South Carolina, 9-2-09

        OJJPAC note:  Another instance where illegal aliens have been caught and convicted of crimes but are not deported until they kill or murder someone. 



        Robert Rosas, Jr., 30

        U. S. Border Patrol Agent, husband, and father

        Allegedly murdered by

        Illegal alien smugglers (not yet identified)

        Three suspected illegal alien smugglers have been arrested for the July 24th murder of U.S. Border Patrol Agent Robert Rosas.  Agent Rosas was tracking alien smugglers who were suspected of crossing illegally into the U.S. from Mexico in a remote area near Campo, California.

        Agent Rosas came under fire and died at the scene after being shot multiple times by his attackers.  Rosas is survived by his wife and two young children.

        Source: Three suspects arrested in shooting of Border Patrol agent Robert Rosas Jr., San Diego News Network, 7-24-09



        Rex Dahl, 58

        Husband, Motorcyclist, and Conroe bar owner

        Allegedly killed by

        Cesar Sanchez, 34

        Cesar Sanchez,  an illegal alien living in Conroe, Texas, has been arrested and charged with Criminally Negligent Homicide and Failure to Stop and Render Aid in the traffic crash that resulted in the death of local businessman Rex Dahl, 58.

        Dahl died after Sanchez allegedly turned his 1997 Saturn in front of Dahl's motorcycle.

        The Department of Homeland Security's Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has placed immigration holds on Sanchez and his passenger at the time, Armando Bocanegra, 32, who is also in the U.S. illegally.  Bocanegra is charged with not reporting a felony.

        Dahl and his wife were the owners of Thirsty's, a popular  local pub that hosted a number of charitable benefits.

        Source: Local business owner killed in wreck; Friday's second automobile related fatality, by Jamie Nash, Montogmery County News, Montogmery, TX, 7-19-09



        Officer Shane Figueroa, 25



        Husband, father, son, & Phoenix Police Officer

        Allegedly killed by

        Salvador Vivas-Diaz, 50

        6-27-09 Update: Salvador Vivas-Diaz, an illegal alien from Mexico illegally living in Phoenix, was arrested in October  2008, in the October 25th death of Phoenix police officer Shane Figueroa, 25.  Vivas-Diaz was convicted and sentenced to 16 years in prison this week for manslaughter after driving drunk in his pickup truck and crashing into officer Figueroa's police cruiser, killing him.  Figueroa  was responding to a "shots fired" call.

        Court records indicate that Vivas-Diaz had multiple alias' and has been arrested for DUI before.  He was also previously deported  but returned to Phoenix thanks to the lax security on the  U.S. border.

        [OJJPAC Note:  Figueroa's death leaves a widow and 10-month-old daughter.  How will the Obama administration or Congress unite this family torn apart because public officials won't secure the U.S. border or enforce our immigration laws until someone is killed or murdered?] 

        Original story Source: KTAR 92.3 News Radio, Phoenix, AZ, 10-28-08

        Update story source: Man gets 16 years in fatal DUI crash,  by Michael Ferraresi,  The Arizona Republic, Phoenix, Arizona 6-27-09



        Police Officer Henry Canales, 42



        Devoted husband and father, and racing fan

        Murdered by

        Robert Pedroza Carrillo, 37*

        Robert Pedroza Carrillo, 37,  an illegal alien from Mexico is accused of fatally shooting Huston Police Officer Henry Canales, 42.

        Canales, a 16-year police department veteran, was shot and killed during an undercover theft investigation in which  Pedroza-Carrillo in the process of hijacking a truck shot officer Canales. Officers returned fire, killing Pedroza Carrillo, who had been previously arrested by the U.S. Border Patrol in 1997 and deported, only to reenter the U.S. later.

        * Robert Pedroza Carrillo, who police say was the shooter in Officer Canales' murder, was shot and killed during the gunfight with police so he will not stand trial for murder.  There are several other illegal alien suspects that have been arrested for their involvement in the truck hijacking turned murder.  They include Andres Maldonado Nava, 41, of Mexico, who has a long criminal history and multiple aliases, Xiomara Rosales Mendez, 36, of Honduras, and a Mexican woman claiming to be a juvenile.

        [OJJPAC Editor's Note: Call the Obama Administration and your members of Congress to let them  know that Officer Henry Canales' blood is on their hands for failing to aggressively supporting our immigration laws.  I getting tired of posting the deaths of good Americans because they refuse to do their job and pander to ethnocentric pressure groups like La Raza, LULAC and  the hundreds if not thousands of other "nonprofits" that daily attempt to undermine immigration law enforcement in order to advance their ethnocentric political goals within the United States.]

        Sources: Michael Graczyk, Associated Press, 6-25-09; Brad Woodard and Alex Sanz, KHOU 11 News, Houston, TX, 6-25-09



        Donald Mayle, 65

        Disabled senior citizen, retired brick mason

        Murdered by

        Antonio Delgado, 40

        Update: Antonio Delgado, 40, an illegal alien  from Mexico pleaded guilty this week to reduced charges of aggravated burglary and involuntary manslaughter for the 2008  machete stabbing murder of Donald Mayle, 65, of Columbus, Ohio.

        Delgado faced aggravated murder and aggravated robbery charges after police  found Delgado covered in Mayle's blood and other evidence connecting Delgado to Mayle's murder.  However, the victims family agreed to the prosecutor offering a plea deal after the first jury trial could not reach verdicts for the more serious charges.   Delgado will now spend 14 years in prison and then be deported back to his native Mexico.

        OJJPAC note:  This story is very similar to the  murder of  Rev. Huang  who was murdered by  multiple blows to the body and head with a machete by an illegal alien named Andarade, who is now serving life in prison. 

        Source: Machete killing sets man 14 years, by Bruce Cadwallader, The Columbus Dispatch, 6-23-09



        Kayla Donohue, 8

        Daughter, dancer, elementary school student

        Allegedly killed by

        Zacaria Conses-Garcia, 35

        Zacaria Conses-Garcia,  an Guatemalan illegal alien living and working  in New York's Lower Hudson Valley has been arrested and charged with DWI and  first-degree vehicular manslaughter for the June 8th deaths of 37-year-old Lori Donohue and her 8-year-old daughter Kayla.

        The mother and daughter died after Conses-Garcia allegedly ran them over with a Ford F-350 rented in Casselberry, Florida,  while they were walking home from Kayla's dance class in their Brewster neighborhood.  Conses-Garcia was driving without a license.

        Conses-Garcia  reportedly was working on a farm in North Salem, NY and  previously worked in Florida (which may explain why the vehicle he was driving had Florida license plates).  Conses-Garcia is now in jail and bail was set at $150,000.  The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has also placed an immigration hold on the defendant.

        [OJJPAC note:  Once again it took a death of an 8-year-old child before local law enforcement, prosecutors, or the courts contacted  ICE regarding illegal aliens in their jails or courthouses. This criticism also is directed at the Obama administration that has been encouraging the Department of Homeland Security to not arrest illegal aliens until after they kill or injure Americans in order to pander to the Hispanic Congressional Caucus which wants to win amnesty for millions of illegal aliens currently in the United States. This is intolerable.]

        Sources: Police: Driver who struck and killed Brewster mom and child had no license, The Journal News, Lower Hudson Valley, NY, 6-9-09;   Family, friends attend wake in Brewster, by Barbara Livingston Nackman, The Journal News, Lower Hudson Valley, NY, 6-12-09



        Lori Donohue, 37

        Wife, mother of two young children

        Allegedly killed by

        Zacaria Conses-Garcia, 35

        Zacaria Conses-Garcia,  an Guatemalan illegal alien living and working  in New York's Lower Hudson Valley has been arrested and charged with DWI and  first-degree vehicular manslaughter for the June 8th deaths of 37-year-old Lori Donohue and her 8-year-old daughter Kayla.

        The mother and daughter died after Conses-Garcia allegedly ran them over with a Ford F-350 rented in Casselberry, Florida,  while they were walking home from Kayla's dance class in their Brewster neighborhood.  Conses-Garcia was driving without a license.

        Conses-Garcia  reportedly was working on a farm in North Salem, NY and  previously worked in Florida (which may explain why the vehicle he was driving had Florida license plates).  Conses-Garcia is now in jail and bail was set at $150,000.  The U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency has also placed an immigration hold on the defendant.

        [OJJPAC note:  Once again it took a death before local law enforcement, prosecutors, or the courts contacted  ICE regarding illegal aliens in their jails or courthouses. This criticism also is directed at the Obama administration that has been encouraging the Department of Homeland Security to not arrest illegal aliens until after they kill or injure Americans in order to pander to the Hispanic Congressional Caucus which wants to win amnesty for millions of illegal aliens currently in the United States.]

        Sources: Police: Driver who struck and killed Brewster mom and child had no license, The Journal News, Lower Hudson Valley, NY, 6-9-09;   Family, friends attend wake in Brewster, by Barbara Livingston Nackman, The Journal News, Lower Hudson Valley, NY, 6-12-09



        Alice "Lolly" Myers, 72

        Senior citizen

        Killed by

        Andy J. Maguino, 30

        Andy J. Maguino,  a Peruvian  illegal alien living and working illegally  in New Jersey, has pleaded guilty in  the death of Alice "Lolly" Myers, 72.

        Ms. Myers was killed when Maguino's vehicle hit her while the senior citizen was crossing  the street.   Maguino  fled the scene of the accident and later turned himself into police.  Police determined that Chavez did not have a driver's license.

        The Prosecutors office has recommended probation and community service. [OJJPAC note: It is outrageous that an illegal alien can kill someone, leave the scene of the accident and accept a plea deal in which the prosecutor recommends probation and community service!]

        Source: Deliveryman pleads guilty to fatally striking pedestrian in Morristown, By Peggy Wright, Daily Record, Morristown, NJ, 6-9-09



        Breanna Schneller, 18



        High School Senior, daughter

        Allegedly murdered by

        Raul Ponce-Rocha, 22

        Raul Ponce-Rocha, 22,  an illegal alien has been arrested and charged in the May 2nd murder of high school senior Breanna Schneller, 18, of Wausau, Wisconsin.  Schneller was a student at Everest High School where she was to graduate.  It was reported that Schneller was attacked and murdered in her bedroom.

        Ponce-Rocha has been charged with  first-degree intentional homicide.

        Sources: Peterson Kraemer Funeral Home; Breanna Schneller may have known her killer, by Jeff Starack, Wausau Daily Herald 5-6-09;Wausau Police continue work on motive, other aspects of murder of Breanna Schneller, by Charles Menchaca, Wausau Daily Herald, 5-17-09

        1. wilderness profile image98
          wildernessposted 7 years agoin reply to this

          These are not an isolated incidents....Good post Situation.

          Question, though - how can an illegal Peruvian alien (Maguino) be sentenced to community service?  Was he left here after conviction instead of deportation?  It's nuts!

          1. TheSituation profile image70
            TheSituationposted 7 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks man.  I tried to limit these to those that were not super violent.  I really got sick reading some of the others and figured this was emotional enough.  I really hate it how it seem to go to sob stories about how someone had to be inconvenienced when people are being killed because of our governments refusal to enforce the laws already on our books!

    11. mikelong profile image73
      mikelongposted 7 years ago

      This is not an isolated incident....Good post Lovemychris..

      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c … 17C8GC.DTL

     
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