Egypt...

1. 63

   Greek Oneposted 13 years ago

   with the chaos in the streets, is it on its way to becoming the the next Iran ??

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      Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Or will a revolution in Egypt fuel a revolution in Iran?
      
      The Egyptian Army holds all the cards .

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Greek:
      Who knows?
      Consider the history of the middle east and give me a length of time that these primitive, religiously oriented "fiefdoms" haven't been at each others throats for land, money, religion or power and control!
      They've had thousands of years to evolve into civilized societies, but have chosen to continue to exist as they did in the 13th century!
      They will never change and they will remain to be in insidious opposition to human progress!
      Qwark

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   3. 61

      Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It's the people overthrowing their tyrannical government!!!
      
      POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!! (try not to kill to many)

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      KFlippinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It might be if the actual puppeteer powers that be actually wish for that to happen, but it certainly does not have to be another Iran, nor do I think the Egyptians wish to be under yet another dictatorial regime, one run by Islamic extremists who would likely make Mubarek look like a Sunday school teacher.  Let us all hope that the Muslim Brotherhood in control does not give the warm and fuzzies to critical world leaders.

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   5. 60

      Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Does Egypt have oil? They're tearin up their mummys, and they're shutting off access to the pyramids. Will the new government have enough capitol and income to survive? Nobody's going to travel there for the climate and beaches.

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         CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Egypt has little oil. But it does have a lovely sunny climate, and lots of great year-round beach resorts on the Red Sea with some of the best diving in the world.  This is really going to set back their tourism industry, and there are currently 30,000 British tourists trying to leave the country and get back home

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      2. 69

         Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The Suez canal is what's worrying people, not the Pyramids. And equally important the possibility that the unrest may spread to other countries in the area.

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            Friendlywordposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This seems to have legs. and its the young people doing the marching. Maybe this will turn out good.

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   6. 83

      oceansnsunsetsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I sure hope not.....
      
      Hopefully things will get better there real soon.

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   7. 57

      C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It would appear that they are heading towards an Islamic Republic.

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      1. 89

         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I don't see many signs of that. This protest is genuinely grass roots, with the aim of removing a tyrannical regime. That's something that everyone should support.

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            Amanda Severnposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Certainly the news that we're getting here seems to show Muslims and Christians standing side by side. The crescent and the cross together, is how one man described it.

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         2. 57

            C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I don't doubt the peoples motives. What I know is this: Nature abhors a vaccuum. Dictatorship, Monarchy and Theocracy are the native forms of government in the region. No reason to believe that any western form of government will evolve there without some outside influence.

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            1. 89

               Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               So be it. The present dictatorship is US sponsored. Let's at least let them set up their own, and if we don't like it, don't arm them. It's time we pulled back.

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                  C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Absolutely agree. This could be an expensive lesson for the US and the west in general. The Suez Canal clearly comes into play here.

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      2. 68

         Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I wouldn't be surprised if it did, if the Egyptians think life under Mubarak was bad wait until they live under the Muslim Brotherhood.  But whatever happens, the US shouldn't interfere.  Let the Europeans, the Chinese and everybody else deal with it.

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   8. 59

      ImChemistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You don't know Egypt , this chaos you speak about its caused by the Egyptian police who want to make it like chaos.
      Egypt will never be Iran.

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   9. 60

      Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      yes.
      Revolution is never good.

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      1. 63

         Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Does that include the American revolution?

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   10. 60

       Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Karol Marx would be happy with chaos.

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       1. 63

          Greek Oneposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          It seems like the want the right to have their leadership determined by them.. and the right not to be ruled over by a dictatorship.  Not sure these aspirations have anything to do with a desire for communism.
          
          Not sure the youth in any country desire communism any more.  Even in China the the workers are too busy making Kathy Lee Gifford's clothing line to worry about anything else

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          1. 60

             Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Hello sir. We had revolution in former Czechoslovakia. I am against dictator any kind. But in Muslim word there is dictatorship as a norm. We do not know well how  Egyptian president dictator is. He is going step down but it is going to be with order fashion. There is no needed bloodshed.
             In all Muslim uprising there is Soviet (now) Russian involvement.  I seen in crowd soviet flags and our press did not focus or zoom on it and ignored this facts what I seen. 
             People do not want communism by the name but they like socialism, which is the same. Many communists are now openly demonstrating their intention in US.

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2. 73

   Uzdawiposted 13 years ago

   We´ll see.I hope not.

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3. 77

   skyfireposted 13 years ago

   finally they issued fatwa against evil porn sites

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4. 64

   prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago

   the price of gas went up immediately
   
   I can see what happened in the Phils in 1986 when we overthrew a regime Ferdinand Marcos and his wife Imelda Marcos. People will eventually say NO, they are fed up already.
   
   Egypt is a strategic country and the result of this uprising will affect the whole Arab world and of course the rest of the world as we are all dependent in oil.

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5. 62

   Mark Ewbieposted 13 years ago

   We are watching this 24/7 on rolling news.  Both my wife and I have had tears in our eyes several times over the last couple of days.  Brave, brave people trying to get their voice heard.
   
   Compare the people on the street with the spineless, lying, political leaders across the world - all of them corrupt and all of them tyrants in their own way - Putin, Obama, Blair, Mubarak, Mugabe - the list is endless.
   
   Where are the great and the good today who apparently fought a war for democracy in Iraq?  When Saddam was no longer "our tyrant". What does the leader of the UN have to say?
   
   Where is Blair - the Middle East peace envoy?
   
   Let Palin, Obama, etc. deal with the important stuff - like a few embarassing emails leaked and the need to close down Wikileaks.  Freedom of information?  Democracy?  The moral crusade in the Middle East?
   
   I am really hacked off.  But back to the TV pictures of people fighting against injustice and a tyrant supported by OUR governments for thirty years.
   
   Sorry.  Normal jokes will be resumed on my hubs very shortly.

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      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Tears, right.
      
      And like the commercial in the Progressive car insurance - "power to the people" - People power!!!

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6. 0

   ralwusposted 13 years ago

   I am most happy for them and it is their decision what road to take. But their military really likes us, or our money and they hold the cards.

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      ral:
      I'm trying to figure out if the revolt is inspired by islam.
      I "THINK" it is the muslim brotherhood.
      We'll see.
      Qwark

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         ralwusposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         It seems to be inspired by hunger, the lack of money and the want of a wife by the young. Also plain old freedoms that we take for granted. We'll be watching with much interest.

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            qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ral:
            I hope yer right!
            Qwark

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7. 60

   KFlippinposted 13 years ago

   This is an international incident, to put it mildly, and I can not imagine that the military in Egypt or any sole authority or entity holds all the cards.  The USA is a strong card holder and let us hope that behind the scenes we are strongly active in having Mubarek ousted, an interim leader in place, and fair elections scheduled asap, that would be in keeping with the rhetoric of our country; too bad it is not on the lips of any potent leaders.
   
   Those people have now clearly spoken, and that vacuum that would result from Mubarek being rightly ousted must surely be the main topic of discussion by all of those holding strong cards in the future direction of this country, of course they may all have had to go to basketball games, or even shoot hoops just for fun, but perhaps by Monday morning they will all gather by 9AM well rested and really address these critical world issues with the USA at the forefront of any discussions, like the great and powerful leader of the FREE world we once were.

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   1. 59

      Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Unless Egypt was adopted as the 51st state, this is an incident which will have to be resolved by the people of Egypt. The civilian police force has collapsed. The army may support Mubarek, in which case he may survive as president, or they may try to put up a new leader. If the army abandons Mubarek, he better have a plane waiting.
      
      The US can not cause or prevent Mubarek to resign. The US cannot cause or prevent the Egyptian army from abandoning Mubarek.  At age 82, Mubarek has little reason to remain, but he has no one to succeed him in office except his son - and that is not an idea the Egyptian people or the Army seem to support. Mubarek's son (unlike Mubarek)  was never an army officer.
      
      My guess is that Mubarek can't survive. When he leaves, the army will fill the void. The US and the UN, and possibly the Arab League, will work on forming a transitional government. Probably a new constitution and elections. Many members of the Arab League are monarchies who won't be thrilled with a pro-democracy movement, but the people of Egypt are demanding a voice and the US and the UN will want them to have it.

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         KFlippinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Unless Egypt was adopted as the 51st state........cute, but not a buyer of the cute or much else you say in an effort to essentially reach the same conclusions as most that their must be a new government.  To discount the USAs influence as peacemakers and diplomats in a situation such as this seems quite trite and obviously deflecting of this admins non action, in my opinion... even the Egyptians know better.  And, I do believe the head of the Egyptian Army spent Monday thru Thursday, or was in Tuesday thru Friday, at the Pentagon.......what a coincidence.

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         1. 59

            Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            In wingnut fashion, you suggest Obama is not doing enough.. "this admins non action, in my opinion..." and then talking out the other side of your mouth.."the head of the Egyptian Army spent Monday thru Thursday, or was in Tuesday thru Friday, at the Pentagon.......what a coincidence."
            
            Suppose you stake out a single position, which I did.
            
            I do not discount the role the US will play, but I am also aware that we aren't trusted or popular in the mid-east after the Bush oil grab in Iraq. You may disagree, but that's unquestionably how the Arabs view our role in Iraq. So we will be involved in peacemaking, but if we want a good outcome, we can't be seen by Arab countries or Arab people as using the crises to expand our domination over the region.

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               KFlippinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I suppose many Americans and more importantly many Egyptians are Wingnuts, have you watched even CNN tonight, how nutty that is, and nothing else bears response given the use of the Wingnut term, clearly used as an empty defense in times of vaccuous and unguided distress, but I will still address your words somewhat. Unbelievably you, as a left wing??, a WingNail? person, now wish to place this Egyptian distress on George Bush?? Or rather our current admins inability to speak decisively on this crisis on George Bush and Iraq?? LOL
               
               Unreal and laughable, and be assured that the Arab countries or Arab people are well aware that Egypt has been our ally for many moons, and to suggest that we might overstep and piss of the Saudis or something is beyond ridiculous and quite pathetic as an effort, or did I misunderstand you...........

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               1. 59

                  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  "Are you pondering what I'm pondering, Pinky?"  Never mind.
                  
                  To explain.. you suggested in the two quotes I provided that the administration is not acting in the crises AND that they caused the crises in some conspiracy between the Egyptian military and the Pentagon. Please pick one or the other as they are incompatible.
                  
                  I did not blame Bush for anything except the deep distrust Arabs have for the USA.  We have been propping up the Mubarek government for years, and the abuses and repression of the Mubarek government are to some degree associated with the US.
                  
                  If the US tries to exclude the Arab League from participation in the formation of a new government, assuming this one falls, that will fuel fears that the US has ulterior motives for control of the region. I have no doubt we will be a player, but we will be one of several major players, and different groups will have different agendas.

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                     KFlippinposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Wow, you have really twisted up my words, awesome job of it by the way, I will do my best to read into your twisting of my words what is the truth as you know it, to state that I in any way suggested a conspiracy on the part of this admin to cause this revolt is beyond comprehension, and quite disturbing to me.
                     
                     And, I am so puzzled, did I say the US was pushing out the Arab League, no do not think so, would never have even though of that, why have you?
                     
                     And, we have propped up Mubarek as you say, through both Democrat and Republican presidencies, it is only Now that the people of Egypt have revolted.

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                        Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        So what was this?
                        
                        "the head of the Egyptian Army spent Monday thru Thursday, or was in Tuesday thru Friday, at the Pentagon.......what a coincidence."

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               C.J. Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Doug, did we get oil from Iraq? Agreed, that is how it is probably viewed by many in the Arab world. I also think that if we have ANY role in the way forward it will be seen as imposing our will. I like the track the Obama Administration is on. Leave the issue to the people. Let them choose. Once they do, we choose if we will continue to support them.

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      Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Agreed. The stock markets went down considerably on Friday partly or mostly because of the implications for the entire Middle East of the revolution in Tunisia and the current problems in Egypt. Among other things Egypt controls the Suez canal which is a major ocean shipping transit point.

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8. 59

   VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 13 years ago

   The disturbances in Egypt is the handwork of Americans... because the American President Mr.Obama has advised the Egyptian Govt. not to use force against the trouble makers. Should he not better advise the lawless crowds not to destroy property and demonstrate in the streets? Will he allow lawlessness in Washington? By his open support to the anti-government protesters, it is evident that the USA is bent on creating trouble everywhere and in every country. He should first retract his statements and help the government of Egypt to bring the situation under control. Or else keep quiet. If he thinks that the people should have self-determination, he has no work there. Everyone in Egypt including Mr.Hosni Mubarak is Egyptian and they will determine their own destiny.

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      qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Venugopal:
      
      Tch, tch.
      
      A fool is recognized by the size of the foot lodged in one's mouth.
      
      You speak as if you have special, knowledgeable "insight" into the "sub-rosa" and clandestine activities of nations, when in truth you are but a simple human creature with opinions which are worth less than a dime a dozen.
      
      You have a right to express those opinions publicly and let us measure the size of the foot lodged in your mouth.
      
      You, nor I, nor anyone else knows what's transpiring under the table and in the back rooms of world gov't.
      
      What seems to be "apparent" to you is just an uneducated  guess, loaded with bigotry of some kind... ex. "it is evident that the USA is bent on creating trouble everywhere and in every country."
      
      You have earned an eternal place on my list of those who offer nothing credible to respond to.
      
      Qwark    :

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         VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Whoever goes against someone's  opinion, they are termed as "fool", etc., etc.   I dont care.   I am simple... I am always simple... will never boast that I know everything. I only expresse what I have seen and experienced for more than 45 years.

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   2. 64

      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It is very clear from his speech that he proposed the authorities and those who are protesting to inhibit from violence. He also called on the government to allow the free flow of information.
      
      Suppressing the people when they are uprising against a rule of tyranny will just create bloodshed.
      
      from his speech
      
      “a meaningful dialogue between the government and its citizens, and a path of political change that leads to a future of greater freedom and greater opportunity and justice for the Egyptian people.” he added “the future of Egypt will be determined by the Egyptian people.” http://www.jpost.com/VideoArticles/Vide … ?id=205801 and
      
      "The people of Egypt have rights that are universal," Obama said. "That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association, the right to free speech and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights and the United States will stand up for them everywhere. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technol … -back.html

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         qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Pretty:
         
         Just my opinion...add Venugopal to your list of those who have nothing credible or of value to respond to...like I have.
         
         Qwark   :

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         1. 64

            prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            how are you doing Mr Qwark?

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               qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Hangin' in there Pretty!   : Thanks for asking.
               ...and you?
               Life is just chugging along...no stress, no pressure.
               People are falling dead all around me. I keep thinking that when I get to 70, I'll have no peers...lol :
               Have a great Sunday Pretty!
               Qwark

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                  prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Oh ok, I guess it seems like it is springtime in TX so, it will not hurt to go take a walk and exercise like what I did.
                  Getting old is only in the mind..
                  
                  I am also good it feels that I just keep monitoring "Egypt" news bec. the people are in great trouble.

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                     qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Pretty;
                     Relax!
                     "Man" has been in this kind of trouble since his appearance. It's nothing unusual or unexpected.
                     Being concerned or worried can only be detrimental to you.
                     There's not a darned thing you can do about it. Accept that FACT and like the song says: "Be happy, don't worry!" :  Oh and the other song that says: "What will be will be..."  :
                     Life is to enjoy so go ENJOY it!  :
                     Qwark

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            VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think this topic is on Egypt and not on Qwark, Pretty or Venugopal...  It is not credible ...

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9. 89

   Paragliderposted 13 years ago

   What appears to be happening is this: The uprising is genuine, huge and largely peaceful, though very angry (with the regime). In Egypt, the police, and secret police, are effectively the regime's militia and are used against the people all the time. On this occasion, the numbers are so great that the police can do nothing except selective brutality which they tried and which failed. So on Saturday, the police completely disappeared, leaving their police stations, with their weaponry, open to be raided. This looks like an intentional tactic, by the regime, to arm the criminal minority of looters, providing the necessity for the army to move in. There is more than a suspicion the the police themselves are among the criminal gangs. By thus making the streets extremely dangerous, the regime's hope is that the genuine protesters will stay home and the thing will fizzle out into a few set piece battles between the army and the gangs. Because there is nothing that would suit the regime better than to be able to represent the protest as an outbreak of criminality. It's a cynical tactic, showing the contempt in which the regime holds the citizenry, but it is too steeped in corruption to care about such niceties.

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      prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Nice explanation. Scary because they might kill each other- the military people against civilians (some of them might be related to each other)

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         The military (except possibly at the very top level) will be very unwilling to confront the people. That was very clear on Saturday when they were completely hands off. Let's hope that continues.

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            prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            it should continue because during times like that people don't know where to get food, people stopped going to the market and sell etc. - disruptions everywhere. People raid groceries just do they can eat. Plus if there is news blackout, then they don't know what is happening.
            
            I remember your hub about "bloodless revolution" - http://hubpages.com/hub/bloodless-revolution
            
            You need to update us too, thank you...

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               Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Hi Maita -
               Already, this revolution is not bloodless. And for the families of the relatively small number of deaths, it is absolute, unrecoverable loss.
               It is regrettable that when tyrants are exposed, resisted and rejected, they never bow out meekly, but always stage one last attempt to subjugate the people, using all the force at their disposal.
               The death throes of an ugly regime can be prolonged and lethal, in proportion to the military muscle they command at the bitter end.

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                  prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I can see that. I think it is up to the military to take side with the people and the more they do it sooner, the better so that it will be a bit stable for the people there. There is a price for freedom, sad.

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                     china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Wouldn't it be nice if Mubarek just stood down and handed over power in a controlled and human way to avoid the obvious dangers of confrontation.  It can be done, Portugal went through a similar rairly bloodless experience 20 to 30 years ago.

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                        prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        right and the Philippines in 1986, that was a bloodless revo. Let us see if Mubarak will just step down.

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                           ImChemistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           its just time ,  Mubarak days will gone forever. just patience!

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      china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for summing up the situation so succinctly - from your place in the region.
      
      Please keep up the commenting, I like reliable, intelligent and well informed sources of information and I do not read media news any more.

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Thanks, china man. I've noticed that threads here have to have an American angle if they are to raise much interest. So here it is:
         Since the protest began, President Obama has paid lip-service to fundamental rights, etc, but he has signally held back from supporting the legitimate and unanimous demand of the protesters, namely, regime change. This is because the US regime values 'stability' over democracy in Egypt, where the 'stable' government is at least notionally west-friendly. The 1 to 1.5 Bn US$ of annual aid to Egypt is used to keep President Mubarak in power in a one-party, militia-controlled state.
         There was no such reticence in supporting the student-led protests in Iran a couple of years ago. Dual standards, I'm afraid.

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      kephriraposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Good assesment Paraglider, I agree. They want to make the protests violents to separate the hardcore agitators from the main population who don't want to be involved in anything violent, and they can then go in force with a brutal crackdown that is 'justified'.
      
      I don't think Mubarak will give in as easily as the Tunisian government.
      
      The Egyptian government released tv reports of 'looting' at a prestigious museum in which ancient egytpitan artifacts were damaged. These showed broken cases and damaged exhibits. But why would looters break such valuable things and not steal them, and why are other reports saying the looters were police? I think it was staged because they are setting the scene for a brutal confrontation which they can't get away with until they have more of a 'just cause'.

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         Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Yes. These museum shots were every bit as staged as the toppling of Saddam's statue, and almost as subtle(!)
         I'm hearing that the American Embassy is going to fly all US ex-pats out of Cairo very soon, but can't confirm that.

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    BobbiRantposted 13 years ago

    I think it's showing us all how dangerous a two class system truly is.  Governments can only take away from the people for so long before they start to get angry.  A lesson for ALL governments?  It should be.

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    Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

    Thank You Dave..
    There are many of us from outside of the States who appreciate the candor of your reports. On our news reports it looks as if Obama has opted for distancing the US from the regime in favor of being seen to loosely support a civil change of rights. Many balls to juggle in the hope that the region remains relatively stable. NZ had a personality and film crew in Cairo when it started, so we have had quite a good feed.

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    CMHypnoposted 13 years ago

    Seems that there are lots of rumours that Mubarek's wife and son are already hiding out in London
    
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … anded.html
    
    This is a situation that has been brewing for years.  The people of Egypt have been living inder a brutal police regime, where people who speak out against or protest against the state get arrested and then brutalised in prison.
    
    I have been to Egypt several times and in 2007 was in the Egyptian Museum in Tahrir Square when a protest started.  Luckily our cab driver returned to get us as promised and we got out just before the roads were blocked. We learned the next day that several protesters had been killed and many beaten up or arrested.  The Egyptian people just want to be able to enjoy the same freedoms that we take for granted every day.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Qwark, while I have agreed with you in the past, I have some issues with your comment back on the first page off this thread...
    
    The "Middle East" can hardly be generalized to "primitive"...and as for the "thousands of years" to work "issues out", I find this statement naive....
    
    The fiefdoms, as you call them, are not very old..per se....and their creators and supporters (the United States, Britain, and France) are to a large degree influencing the political structures in these nations...whether the local populations like it or not....
    
    Let us look at the recent strife in this region known as the "Middle East".....Lebanon.....was never a nation, let alone a united group of people with any sort of common purpose..until the French were "awarded" (Sykes Picot Agreement) the region...which the French used violence to consolidate....upsetting the natural balances between Muslims and Christians that had existed for well over a century and a half at least....
    
    Peace turned into war for the benefit of French industrialists and merchants.....colonialism....
    
    Muslims get shoved to the bottom of the socio-political-economic chain....and become disenfranchised....and then what happens?
    
    And of Egypt?  I urge more people to learn about the evolution of these "Mid East" states over the past century....then we can have real discussions about how to find remedies to these issues, and we can stop using stereotypes which are obviously false....

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       qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Mike:
       
       The most important facet of the comment I posted is:
       
       "They've had thousands of years to evolve into civilized societies, but have chosen to continue to exist as they did in the 13th century!"
       
       For well over 4000 yrs, from ancient Sumeria forward (and this includes Egypt,) there has been "terrible" conflict in old "Mesopotamia."
       
       In a little over 200 yrs the USA evolved to become the most powerful and dynamic nation that has ever existed.
       
       No one can convince me that the same opportunities for "progress" weren't available to all men of all nations.
       
       The proper "inspiration" was not yet realized!
       
       I could write a "hub' on the reasons the "middle east" is still involved in the irrationality of deadly conflict. I won't because "Google" does a better job than I could...:
       
       Thanks for the thoughtful comment!  :
       
       Qwark

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    jokeapptvposted 13 years ago

    i hope not i doubt it.
    with the web. its changing fast. i personally know tons of iraqs in the usa posting chatting online back forth all nite to over seas. the words getting out that usa is cool. but they do tell them we got no jobs and everything heres from china lol
    but they talk nitely.

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    qwarkposted 13 years ago

    This is not to make an excuse for man's inhumanity to man, but in the USA alone over 40,000 people a yr die in auto accidents.
    People and their societies/cultures come and go.
    It's the natural processes of evolution, alive and well and doing what it has always done relative to all life.
    You're here one moment and gone the next. Enjoy that moment!
    Qwark

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       Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Are you unclear about the qualitative difference between accident and murder?
       By styling power politics as 'evolution', you risk debasing the scientific meaning of the term.

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          qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Hi Paraglider;
          Of course I understand the "qualitative" dif between accident and murder.
          
          Regardless of the way of death, death is death.
          
          It is all "natural" and just part and parcel of the processes of the evolution of a species of life.
          
          Murder is a legal term. It is the "UNLAWFUL"  killing of one HUMAN by another, especially with premeditated malice.
          
          It has to do with cultural mores, tradition and morals. All of those are created by we humans in accordance to what we have been taught and experienced and ALL are but a facet of the results of the natural processes human evolution.
          
          "Power politics?" A facet of the processes of human evolution.
          
          We have evolved as omnivorous predators.
          
          WE are efficient killers utilizing guile and suffering no compunction.
          
          Killing is the nature of earth's prime predator.
          
          Death, regardless of how it is perpetrated, is natural to all life and is a necessary facet of evolution.
          
          I care not whether you call it murder or accident (semantics).
          
          There's not a damn thing any one of us can do about stopping it.
          
          Thanks for the question.
          
          Qwark

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Quark.....Egypt stood as a culture and nation of progress for thousands of years....the United States, let alone the "West" has yet to do anything of such substantive worth...  For all our material "progress"....will we ever be able to sustain what Egypt did? 
    
    And I reiterate, one cannot look at 4000 plus years of history...involving numerous different peoples from different areas migrating, interacting (for better and worse) and make a generalization about today...
    
    And further, where would the "progress" of the U.S. and the "West" be without the oil and trade routes that states like Egypt, Iran, and the Mid East all together hold?
    
    While the United States is like an island, the Middle East has been a crossing roads for its entire history....and where cultures and peoples cross....there are often clashes....
    
    Lastly, looking at how the United States and the "West" has gained its power....I think the last thing that anyone can do is point to the "Middle East" as a cruel, barbaric place.....
    
    The genocide of native peoples here did not end that long ago....and the harm has not stopped there...
    
    Ethnocentrism acts like a blinder......
    
    When we deal with specifics, and move away from the generalities, comments comparing the here and now to 4000 years ago turn to dust...

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       qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Mike:
       
       There's no doubt that a certain level of "progress" was experienced over the past 4000 or so yrs.
       
       The greatest progress man has made has been in the past 100 yrs.
       
       Remember that you are considering the rise of man only in the middle east when there were great human powers existing in many other areas of the continents.
       
       There is no doubt that the great bankers and money lenders began their trek to today in the trades business of the middle east.
       
       "one cannot look at 4000 plus years of history...involving numerous different peoples from different areas migrating, interacting (for better and worse) and make a generalization about today..."
       
       You certainly can!
       
       I must consider the history and the future of "modern man" subjectively in terms of his genetic evolution.
       
       I make this "generalization:" Man is, genetically, a "bad ass."
       
       Regardless of where you trace the immigration of man to, his trail has been covered with blood. His savagery has not been exceeded by any other form of life...and it continues today.
       
       The problem is that we have just begun!
       
       What lies ahead? I can see nothing but more of the same but with deadlier potential.
       
       Qwark

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    Greek Oneposted 13 years ago

    Looks like it will be up to the military
    
    in china they sided with the regime....
    
    In egypt???
    
    I just hope that the iranian and saudi leadership are at least sleeping less peacefully

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    Qwark, you are incorrect....and the specifics that I will now mention debunk the ongoing generality that you put forward....
    
    
    Let us look at Pre-European contact California.....
    
    Home to more (in number and in diversity) native peoples than any other region of what is now the United States, there was no history of violence.....
    
    When the Spanish came, it was only in response to the predatory acts of the newcomers that native peoples acted in violence....and even then, it took time for them to grow accustomed to it, or to learn how to use it as a tool....
    
    The Chumash, the Tongva, the Gabrieleno, and numerous others....existed for thousands of years here in Los Angeles....and only in the past 300 years has "progress" turned it into the place it is today...with the highest rate of incarcerated men and women, with some of the worst criminal activity in the world, and so forth....
    
    "Progress" indeed....
    
    What I just put forward is not a generality....
    
    California was a major passing point and destination for many peoples, long before Europeans came....but this "big man" attitude you presented did not accompany these migrations...
    
    I am sorry Qwark, but on this one I cannot agree with you....  You'll have to come up with much more substantive and plausible arguments than this...
    
    Don't take my criticism the wrong way, though.....  I still think your terr-rriffic...

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       qwarkposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Hi Mike:
       
       Never worry about hurting my feelings for responding critically to anything I offer.
       
       I wouldn't respond to you if I didn't respect your comments  :
       
       Your response is why I always "generalize."
       
       I see the human species as an evolved "MACRO" unit of life that is the result of 4 million years of "evolution."
       
       We could spend hours, days chatting about the trivial aspects of modern man's goods and bads, his failures and his accomplishments over the short length of time he has recorded his history, but in the end, the concept would result in the description I offered as man being a "bad ass!"
       
       He "IS" earths prime predator.
       
       The "journeys" he's taken to all land masses of this planet are soaked with his blood! This cannot be denied.
       
       His sophistication in the arts of "killing" have become so effective and efficient, that today, all life on this planet can be detrimentally effected by 1 major mistake in judgement!
       
       His history and current responses to the actions of his own species, is proof of "his" overpowering, need to satisfy the inherent predatory programming of his genes!
       
       As I said, previously, "man" is just beginning to make us aware of the savagery he is capable of.
       
       I sincerely hope that "history" proves me wrong, but I am a "skeptic" and I prophesize the worst is yet to come!
       
       Thanks for the thoughtful response.   :
       
       Qwark

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          logic,commonsenseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          The History Channel had a program just recently, called "How the Earth was Made".
          Time and time again throughout Earth's history it has been shown that nature has taken it's own course regardless of what any life forms have or have not done.  Each time their has been a cataclyismic event, it has eliminated all but the most simple of life forms.  It will only be a matter of time before we meet the same fate, if we remain on this planet.  It may be next year, it may be thousands of years, but it appears inevitable.
          We may hasten our demise by our own hand.
          Food supplies will continue to dwindle, as we see more weather extremes such as Australia and many other countries have seen.  We are overdue for a drought in this country and if South America has weather issues as well, we will see food riots on the scale that has not been witnessed before.

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             china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             maybe then you will be happy to see cheap food produced in other countries ?  In the case of severe food shortages as you predict I would see China responding by modernising its agriculture and meeting the shortfall.

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                logic,commonsenseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Why don't they do it now instead of buying from the US and SA?
                Producing foodstuffs, doesn't just happen, it takes time to till the land plant the seed and hope you have a crop to harvest.  I've been around agriculture for years and know what it takes.

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    mikelongposted 13 years ago

    You're absolutely right Mr. Deeds.....few people give trade routes the respect that they deserve....  How expensive would it be to go back to "round the southern tip of Africa" route?
    
    How much longer would it take for goods to arrive? 
    
    This is also why the government of Egypt is so tightly held, and controlled by the West... What if the Egyptian people, through the process of democracy, set up conditions for Suez Canal passage that did not benefit shippers like Moller-Maersk and such?
    
    Would we see the type of regime change that Iran saw in the 1950's, when Kermit Roosevelt and a briefcase of cash helped bring down the democratically elected government of Mosaddegh?

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       Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Here's a possibly positive development: El Baradei unifies the opposition.
       
       http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/world … pt.html?hp

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    china manposted 13 years ago

    Just a note from the sidelines - I was just imagining the different tone and content that this thread would have if it were Muslims fronting this 'revolution'.

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    thirdmilleniumposted 13 years ago

    Dictatorship: The way to a dusty death

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    qwarkposted 13 years ago

    The "immune" system of "Mother Gaia" will rectify and sterilize.
    In another billion yrs (give or take a million or so) even "SHE" will begin to evaporate.
    The inevitable will be realized! i.e. "everything ends!"
    
    Sit quietly with friends and watch with great respect, admiration and joy as that which sustains all life on earth, creates a breathtaking spectacle of brilliance and color while disappearing silently over the horizon, giving birth to a new, quiet moment of needed rest and rebirth.
    
    Enjoy this fleeting moment of life! Once gone, never returned!
    
    Qwark

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    CMHypnoposted 13 years ago

    A million or more people will take to the streets of Cairo today to regain their country.  The fear is that with that many people protesting, there will be violence and destruction of property.
    
    How many people need to take to the streets before Mubarek gets the message that his day is over, and that the Egyptian people want to live in a free and democratic country
    
    
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … ntrol.html

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    KFlippinposted 13 years ago

    Can not imagine why this thread of discussion has ended.   Also can not imagine what sort of personal insult that Dough Hughes attempted to throw my way.
    
    Also can not imagine why now there is a sense on some newtworks that it is Obama that encouraged Mubarek to leave, hope it is true, but looks like an administration taking advantage grossly of what has occurred without their help, huge flip flop week to week. 
    
    But, for sure there has been much we will never know behind the scenes.  Too bad it may now be something Obama will take advantage of after the fact as a success for his admin, how trite and bogus, IMO. 
    
    Hillary has been on her game, and Obama could never had spoken so well to the issues in Egypt, not in a million years. 
    
    Let us all thank HIllary for any US involvement that has helped in this situation in Egypt.

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       Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       The US has been more interested in having an ally in Mubarak than in how that ally treated his own people. It is untenable for the self-styled 'world's foremost democracy' to sustain a brutally repressive regime. However, for as long as the US thought the revolution would fizzle out, they kept a low profile. Now, they are trying to recover some credibility in the eyes of the Egyptian people. But that's probably a lost cause. This time around, the people are going to choose for themselves and will not accept any imposed solution. They have nothing to lose, as the American aid never came their way, but was used exclusively for military toys for the Mubarak regime.

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          knolyourselfposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          "This time around, the people are going to choose for themselves and will not accept any imposed solution."
          You are the guy that should know if I remember
          correctly, maybe you are still in the neighborhood. Now me I am always the pessimist.
          Just can't believe the 'powers that be' will allow it. Pining to be wrong.

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             Paragliderposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             I'm in Qatar, not Egypt. Many in the west seem to think Arab and Muslim mean the same. They don't. Most people, if able to control their own destiny, don't want to live under any authoritarian regime, whether military or religious. Let's see what happens.

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    CMHypnoposted 13 years ago

    Looks like the protest in Egypt has descended into violence and there are sadly many dead and injured. Looks like it was instigated by Mubarek and the situation is rapidly spiralling out of control.  How many people have to die before this man realises he is not wanted???
    
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … dbath.html

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       ImChemistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Mubarak  doesn't care if he kill all Egyptians , he just care about his chair!!

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    CMHypnoposted 13 years ago

    Mind you reading the comments below the article, as usual we British seem to be more concerned about the 'poor camels' and 'poor horses'.  I am an animal lover, I do not want those poor animals to suffer, but there are bigger issues going on there people!

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    Daniel Carterposted 13 years ago

    The internet has educated the common man in almost every country. The masses will no longer be as tolerant as they have been in times past of dictatorships and oppression. However, the forces created to keep masses in line will continue to reign in violence, as we see even today.
    
    I think that the US will eventually lash out against the money machines that control so much of the political environment here. But it will also be interesting to see how money machines and other political regimes interact across the globe in subverting and trying to control each other.
    
    It is as tragic as it is heart warming to see the Egyptian people take to the street to demand the rights and freedoms due any human being. I think we can safely conclude that we are on the side of the people, and so as such, we should well be on each other's side in life.
    
    We forget that sometimes. But it's encouraging when we can see it in action.
    
    A victory for the people in Egypt, Tunisia, or anywhere, is a victory for all of us. May it continue to be so.

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       ImChemistposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "A victory for the people in Egypt, Tunisia, or anywhere, is a victory for all of us. May it continue to be so." i see the next country will be Yemen!!

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