61 arrested in France

1. 59

   DannyMaioposted 13 years ago

   Curious if everyone thinks Paris is wrong for banning Muslim Veils? Just seems very odd that you go to another country and refuse to obey their laws? If you do not like it why not go back where you came from? If it was so great why did you leave? looks like another step to enforce Sharia law to me. any thoughts?
   
   61 arrested over banned Paris Muslim veil protest
   AP
   
        
   By JAMEY KEATEN, Associated Press
   
   PARIS – Police on Saturday arrested 61 people — including 19 women — for attempting to hold an outlawed Paris protest against France's pending ban on face-covering Islamic veils, a top police official said.
   
   Fifty-nine people were detained while trying to demonstrate at Place de la Nation in eastern Paris, as were two others while traveling there from Britain and Belgium, said Nicolas Lerner, chief of staff for the Paris police chief.
   
   The arrests come amid in a rising, if small, groundswell of controversy over Monday's start of an official ban of garments that hide the face, which includes Muslim veils such as the slit-eyed niqab and the full face-covering burqa. Women who disobey the law risk a fine, special classes and a police record.
   
   The demonstrators rallied in defiance of a ban of the protest ordered Friday by Paris police on the ground that a Muslim group's call for the rally was "clearly an incitement to violence and racial hatred," said Lerner.
   
   "The demonstration was not banned because of the practice (among some Muslim women) of wearing veils, but because of the speech," he said, adding that Jewish groups and others had planned counter-protests — raising the prospect of public disorder.
   
   Most of the would-be protesters were released after being taken to police stations, though six remained in custody — mostly on suspicion of being in France illegally, Lerner said.
   
   The two would-be protesters who had tried to arrive from Britain and Belgium were known to French authorities. Police were under existing orders to stop and expel them, if they tried to reach France, Lerner said.
   
   Lerner identified the man who had traveled from Britain as Anjem Choudary, the head of Islam4UK until it was banned earlier this year by Britain's government for glorifying al-Qaida. Several people associated with the group have been linked to terrorist acts.
   
   The protest was called by a group known as Unicite Tawhib, which has been linked to Internet sites that call for Islam to dominate France and the world, Lerner said.
   
   Secular France has been in the throes of a debate about the role of religion in its society. Many Muslims have felt stigmatized by a 2004 law that banned Islamic headscarves in classrooms and during the intense debate that preceded the adoption of the face-veil ban last year.
   
   The measure forbids women to hide their faces in public places, even in the streets. Violators could face a fine of euro150 ($215) or a citizenship course — or both. Anyone found forcing a woman to cover her face risks a year in prison and a euro30,000 fine ($43,000), and possibly twice that if the veiled person is a minor.
   
   Authorities estimate at most 2,000 women in France wear the outlawed veils. France's Muslims number at least 5 million, the largest such population in western Europe.

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      Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think the authorities are right.
      It's getting pretty bad when people can use their religion to hide their identities.  Might as well let people walk around in face masks without ever questioning them.

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      Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      whenever government does anything it's wrong.
      
      they have to pay for EVERYTHING they do through theft.
      
      Thus, they're wrong.

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         Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Keep asking for a list of countries whose governments are supported by voluntary contributions. How will that system work? 
         
         What about cheapskates who insist on using government services but won't pay a dime?
         
         We all find the concept interesting, though detached from reality.

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            Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            "What about cheapskates who insist on using government services but won't pay a dime?"
            
            Like women who get knocked up because they won't use birth control?

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               prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               You know what Jim, in some countries, women can't say no to men
               specially when they are drunk (which they usually do after a days work in the farm or elsewhere) and don't want them to use contraception. To these women, satisfying their men is a duty, it is true. Even if they don't want to get pregnant, they don't know where to avail, they use herbals etc., and when they get pregnant, they use different ways to abort the baby risking their lives more. Maternal mortality rates are high in these developing countries.

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               Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               . . . . .It takes two to tango, Sir, so any man who knocks up a woman is equally responsible.

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                  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  You people misunderstand the point my friend Jim was making.
                  
                  He's concerned with the lack of access to contraception that might have happened if the teabaggers had prevailed in defunding Planned Parenthood, an organization many republicans defended.

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                     Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Do you really think that planned parenthood is the answer to the problem of teenage pregnancy?
                     
                     If you do (and you do) you must admit they are horrible at preventing teenage pregnancy.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      And where do you go back to if your family is from France? If indeed France is your country?
      Do a little bit of history before you let your mouth run away.
      Oh, and how exactly does it look like another step to enforce Sharia?

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      Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I think that it is far overdue.  That Europeans have tolerated Islamic bullshit in their own countries for so long is amazing.

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         John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Perhaps it's because we don't just pay lip service to freedom of expression but actually try to live it, not just for the chosen few but for all.

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            Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes.  I thought that toleration of Islamic nonsense should have ended when the cartoonist was murdered in Holland years ago.

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               John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               So,a very small percentage of Muslims murder, they're all guilty!
               Tell me, why doesn't that work for Christians as well, it wouldn't be hypocrisy would it?

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                  Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I hardly think that I implied that, but you get a half a kudo for trying.  I'm not aware of Jewish or Christian persons who've murdered there daughters for apostate seeming actions,  nor am I aware of Jewish or Christians who have murdered a cartoonist. . . EVER!

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                     John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Kudos is not a plural and kudo is not singular.
                     
                     Just because you are unaware does not mean that it doesn't happen and probably you're right, no Christian or Jew has ever murdered a cartoonist but they've murdered plenty of others.

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                        Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        Oh thanks so much for the grammar and spelling lessons. . . .Yes, killing seems to be something spread across the human races. . .but nobody kills for as ridiculous and asinine a reason as do members of the Islamic Faith. . . .and corporations seeking to please Mammon, a different blood drinking God altogether.

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                           John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           That might be you belief but it is not one everybody shares.
                           Some might say killing for oil is pretty asinine.

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                              Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Sir, surely you are literate enough to see that that was included in the "mammon" idea.

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                                 John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 Ah, I wondered why the reference to Mammon tacked on the end!
                                 A bit of a non sequitur really, likening some primitive customs to big business.
                                 I have a bit of a problem with "all Muslims" it just isn't in my experience,most of the Muslim women I know are not doormats,in fact it could be said that they rule the roost.

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                                    DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                    John I clicked on your name so you can read this. from a reporter in your beloved Britain.
                                    
                                    THIS FROM THE ” LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH” EDITOR, ALEX SINGLETON
                                    
                                    This is a very sobering article.  Our handling of relationships with the Britons over the oil spill won’t help either.
                                    
                                    From The London Daily Telegraph Editor On Foreign Relations
                                    
                                    Quote:
                                    
                                    “Let me be clear: I’m not normally in favor of boycotts, and I love the American people.  I holiday in their country regularly, and hate the tedious snobby sneers against the United States .  But the American people chose to elect an idiot who seems hell bent on insulting their allies, and something must be done to stop Obama’s reckless foreign policy, before he does the dirty on his allies on every issue.”
                                    
                                    One of the most poorly kept secrets in Washington is President Obama’s animosity toward Great Britain , presumably because of what he regards as its sins while ruling Kenya (1895-1963).
                                    
                                    One of Barack Hussein Obama’s first acts as president was to return to Britain a bust of Winston Churchill that had graced the Oval Office since 9/11.  He followed this up by denying Prime Minister Gordon Brown, on his first state visit, the usual joint press conference with flags.
                                    
                                    The president was “too tired” to grant the leader of America ’s closest ally a proper welcome, his aides told British journalists.
                                    
                                    Mr. Obama followed this up with cheesy gifts for Mr. Brown and the Queen. Columnist Ian Martin described his behavior as “rudeness personified.” There was more rudeness in store for Mr. Brown at the opening session of the United Nations in September.  “The prime minister was forced to dash through the kitchens of the UN in New York to secure five minutes of face time with President Obama after five requests for a sit down meeting were rejected by the White House,” said London Telegraph columnist David Hughes.  Mr. Obama’s “churlishness is unforgivable,” Mr. Hughes said.
                                    
                                    The administration went beyond snubs and slights last week when Secretary of State Hillary Clinton endorsed the demand of Argentine President Cristina Kirchner, a Hugo Chavez ally, for mediation of Argentina ’s specious claim to the  Falkland Islands , a British dependency since 1833. The people who live in the Falklands, who speak English, want nothing to do with Argentina .  When, in 1982, an earlier Argentine dictatorship tried to seize the Falklands by force, the British — with strong support from President Ronald Reagan — expelled them.
                                    
                                    “It is truly shocking that Barack Obama has decided to disregard our shared history,” wrote Telegraph columnist Toby Young. “Does Britain ’s friendship really mean so little to him?”  One could ask, does the friendship of anyone in the entire world mean anything to him?
                                    
                                    “I recently asked several senior administration officials, separately, to name a foreign leader with whom Barack Obama has forged a strong personal relationship during his first year in office,” wrote Jackson Diehl, deputy editorial page editor of the Washington Post, on Monday. ” A lot of hemming and hawing ensued.”  One official named French President Nicolas Sarkozy, but his contempt for Mr. Obama is an open secret.  Another named German Chancellor Angela Merkel. But, said Mr. Diehl, “Merkel too has been conspicuously cool toward Obama.”
                                    
                                    Mr. Obama certainly doesn’t care about the Poles and Czechs, whom he has betrayed on missile defense.  Honduras and Israel also can attest that he’s been an unreliable ally and an unfaithful friend.  Ironically, our relations with both Israel and the Palestinian Authority have never been worse.  Russia has offered nothing in exchange for Mr. Obama’s abandonment of missile defense.  Russia and China won’t support serious sanctions on Iran .  Syria ’s support for terrorism has not diminished despite efforts to normalize diplomatic relations.  The reclusive military dictatorship that runs Burma has responded to our efforts at “engagement” by deepening its ties to North Korea .
                                    
                                    And the Chinese make little effort to disguise their contempt for him.
                                    
                                    For the first time in a long time, the President of the United States is actually distrusted by its allies and not in the least feared by its adversaries.  Nor is Mr. Obama now respected by the majority of Americans.  Understandably focused on the dismal economy and Mr. Obama’s relentless efforts to nationalize and socialize health care, Americans apparently have yet to notice his dismal performance and lack of respect in the world community.
                                    They soon will.
                                    
                                    –London Daily Telegraph editor — Alex Singleton

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2. 0

   Will Apseposted 13 years ago

   Don't you have a dog to kick or an aged relative to antagonize? Perhaps you could just turn up your stereo and annoy the neighbors.

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      DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      No sorry I don't, unless you want to be kicked?

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         Will Apseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You have told us all we need to know about your mind set.

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            DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I think that goes for you. your the one with the sarcastic remark. If the subject matter is too hard on you, you should not have left that remark. It's news and obviously the French have their view on the matter.

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            Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Mindset requires a mind to set.

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               Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Watch out you don't get banned again.
               
               These guys are pretty ignorant though. This argument is all about the Muslims flexing their political muscle. Or at least trying to. France is mainly Catholic and has stupidly allowed a great swath of Muslims to come and live here.
               
               The tension is rising, and this stupid ban started out as a swimming pool.
               
               France has "hygiene laws" against wearing loose clothing in a public swimming pool. A girl was prevented from entering a pool wearing a burka. Why anyone would want to try swimming in a full burka is beyond me, but - the next thing you know, the Muslims are crying "persecution because we love ALLAH!" and the things are now banned in France and Italy for "security" reasons. An Italian Muslim was fined for wearing one a few months back and her husband publicly stated he would no longer allow her to leave the house.
               
               Religion. Making an item of clothing illegal? Good grief.

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                  Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Sharia, Dearborn, Michigan style, Miss USA, Rima Fakih
                  
                  http://www.freep.com/article/20110410/N … y=nav|head
                  
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MluhagN3gIQ

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               DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               you certainly do! so If someone does not believe as you do, they have no mindset? the links you provided were of a beautiful arab woman who won a beauty contest. OK so what is the problem with that? She is stunning! I also would have voted for her. so does this mean you do not want them to wear veils? I have no problem with Muslim people, but when you get to this religious type of group is when problems start. If your in someone Else's country respect the laws. It is for everyone's safety.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  This is not Someone Else's country any more. Roughly 10% of the population is Muslim - many of them born and bred here. The fact that they are getting political and claiming persecution is typical of religious groups.
                  
                  Personally - I do not want my government dictating what I may or may not wear. These clothes are typical religious BS, which I despise - and I tell you - these women do not smell great either.
                  
                  Rather shocked you want so much government interference in your life. I hate it myself. Can I wear a red shirt or will it look like I am a commie?

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                     prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     must be so bad during summer!

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                        Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        The camel got his nose under the tent!

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                           prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           When I went here in the US,  I brought some "sarong" - wrap around skirt and dresses - batik which I used to wear when I do household chores and go outside the house when I was still in Asia.
                           I still use them here in the house, seldom when I go outside, only when I would like to move faster as it gives ease.
                           
                           of course when you move to a certain place, you carry with you some practices and for me, I think one time when I went outside wearing it, everybody is looking at me so I need to change some wardrobe. They are hot during summer as well, but I still wear them inside the house.
                           
                           they are convenient, you can move freely but you need also to consider weather. You can also style it whatever you want like the skirt. But for Moslems, it is tied to their religion, so it is different.
                           Importantly, these are only dresses, what is inside the heart is more important.
                           
                           these are batik sarong which you can style - - wrap around akirt
                           
                           

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                              Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              Wow! You're hot!

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                                 prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 it is not me, all I am saying is that you can make the sarong - wrap around in different ways and you can still wear it. You can buy them here anywhere at Asian stores, BTW
                                 
                                 Importantly, there should be compromise bet. the receiving country and the immigrants, the people should be accepting, anyway it will come to that specially if there will be influx of Moslem migrant there.

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   secularist10posted 13 years ago

   They're not wrong if the ban is motivated by legitimate public safety concerns. If, however, it is motivated by prejudice toward a particular religious group, then it's wrong.
   
   Not sure what you mean by "enforcing Shariah law," but I don't think that's going to happen in France any time soon! lol. Secularism is one of the pillars of national identity.
   
   Oh, imagine no religion...

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   AnnCeeposted 13 years ago

   In Turkey, since 1997, women are not allowed to wear hijabs in public buildings, universities or schools.   I have heard in Turkey that they are also not allowed to wear them to the workplace.  Same in Tunisia.   Up until recently anyway the desire of Turkey is to be a secular nation first.
   
   I've seen websites where Muslim women discuss how to control men from perving them if they are uncovered.  It is pretty sickening the way they stare.  Maybe Muslim men should be forced to wear blinders instead and stoned for staring at women.

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      secularist10posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Excellent idea!
      
      It's amazing how our societies seem to function coherently with all these women showing their hair all over the place, isn't it? I would expect car accidents, riots, terrorist attacks... oh wait, that's what happens in the Muslim countries... huh, that's interesting...

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   kirstenblogposted 13 years ago

   All I can really say on this topic is that I would not choose to live in a country that legally regulates what I wear, period. I would not be happy being told I had to wear something for any reasons nor would I be happy living somewhere where I was forbidden from wearing something. As a woman I can dress myself ya know

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I remember a cartoon which showed two Burqa clad women sitting on a park bench watching crowds of scantily clad women pass them.
      
      One says to the other "it must be terrible to be a western woman, forced to display their bodies for the titillation of men"

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         kirstenblogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well here's a burka for ya
         

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         DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         so I guess you agree with the cartoon? so now you think you know what is better for France? They say it is for Security reasons, If they were born in France there is a very good possibility they do not wear Barkas. they would not have all the pressure of the Sharia Laws in middle eastern countries. They refused to give a woman here in the states a DL because she would not take off her veil. How would the cops or authorities know this is the right woman when stopped? maybe they can use the same just eyes pic for someone else to come to a country illegally. I also believe it is banned in banks! and I agree with them! Normal Muslims would not have a problem with this

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            John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Whilst I agree that if a woman wants a DL she should be happy to show her full face, but this isn't about that and it isn't about going in banks either.I rarely if ever actually go inside a bank, I have no reason to.
            No, it's about that great American shibboleth, freedom of expression, it obviously means far more to me than it does to a lot of Americans (and French).

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               DannyMaioposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               wow I'm actually shocked you agree that they should show their full face for a DL or to enter a bank. I will not get into you not going into banks because this is usually necessary to live live, maybe not going as much with the internet and modern technology but I still go every week or so to deposit etc... I personally do not care what they wear outside as long as there isn't any threat. I do not believe this would really be a subject if we did not have all the terrorist actions we have seen. And yes most are sweet!

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                  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Gulp, Danny and I agree!

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   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   I don't see many burkas, but when I do I like it. But they won't look at me. They carry prejudice ahead of them, like that I disapprove of them. But I can tell they are so sweet.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I see quite a few where I live and I tell you, it's quite a buzz when you realise that the woman is flirting with you

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         Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  My Islamophobia ends under the sheets. . . .!!!!
         
         The sad part of this is that in the end, the woman is murdered for "honor" by her brothers or father, for becoming too "Westernized."
         
         Then I go to prison, for murdering every male in the family.  Bad deal all the way around.

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            John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Dream on in your little fantasy world.
            
            It may happen very occasionally, honour killings are rare enough to make the national news,
            
            And don't try to suggest that similar despicable acts have never occurred in your culture.

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               Wesman Todd Shawposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               What, exactly, is "my culture?"  I'd like some explanation on that one.

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                  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Your culture, the state of being American, the accepted practices, the norms, the mores, the experiences.

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   knolyourselfposted 13 years ago

   "Like women who get knocked up because they won't use birth control?"
   Or men who won't use rubbers.

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      Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      absolutely.
      
      Them too.
      
      But, I wasn't talking about men who don't use rubbers.
      
      I was talking about irresponsible women who have sex without using birth control (or demanding their partners do) and then seeking the governments assistance as the new "baby daddy".

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   superwagsposted 13 years ago

   I'm uncomfortable about women being forced to wear veils, however I'm even more uncomfortable about countries banning it under law.
   
   The initial post is so entrenched in bigotory that I almost didn't justify this thread with answer, but sod it.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      But many wear the veil from choice.

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   Will Apseposted 13 years ago

   It doesn't take much to bring the old pathetic hatreds and fears to the surface does it?
   
   I live in a town which is 25% Muslim. If I drive North or South for an hour I will be in majority Muslim cities.
   
   Is that any kind of problem for me or anyone else? Of course not.
   
   Some people just need monsters to scare their children with and targets for loathing that has its origins much closer to home.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Which Country do you live in?

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    Will Apseposted 13 years ago

    I wouldn't expose the women of the country I live in to your insults Mark.

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       Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Good grief.

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       iantoPFposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That is just rude.

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    John Holdenposted 13 years ago

    Danny, firstly, what has that got to do with the topic, and secondly, a right wing journalist writing for a right wing rag doesn't impress me at all.
    
    Oh, and there is no such newspaper as the "London Daily Telegraph"

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