Muslims to be Banned across Europe

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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
France - Belguim - the ban is spreading

President Nicolas Sarkozy urged French Muslims today not to feel hurt nor stigmatised by a planned ban on full face veils that will fine women who hide their faces and jail men if they force them to cover up.

Mr Sarkozy told a cabinet meeting, which approved the bill that could become law this autumn, that France was an old nation that could not allow its vision of women's dignity and public order to be violated by the veil.

Only a tiny minority of Muslim women in Europe wear full veils, called niqabs or burqas, but their numbers are growing. The Belgian parliament has already begun debating a ban there and could also impose it in the coming months.

France has received criticism from Muslim groups and rights advocates for the planned "burqa ban", which Mr Sarkozy called for last year to counter Islamist views among some Muslims.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  When in Rome, act as the Romans do.
  Fair enough.
  If they came to live in Europe, let them act according to European rules!
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The saying goes
  "When you're in Rome do as the Roman's do"
  
  If they want to live a Muslim life..let them go to the Middle East.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Right...I knew I got it wrong, the saying, I mean. It is a great saying! Thanks :-)
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Each country, as a sovereign state, has the right to make such laws as they feel inclined to, good laws are applauded, bad laws protested against, either publicly or at the ballot box.
  
  Make bad laws and decisions and the public will throw you out of power.
  
  So French government stands or fall on the opinion of the MAJORITY, not the minority.
  
  When Islamics represent the majority, they will make the laws (about 2060 by all accounts) and burkas could become mandatory rather than illegal.
  
  The whole concept of global community is alien to the Muslim faith, (excepting that the whole world MUST be Islamic) so if those who attempt to bring this 'we are all humans together' concept in to force are successful, then the ironic situation will arise where the turkeys will have voted for Christmas (which would in any case be banned)and lose the 'global freedom of expression' that nearly six million folk died trying to determine in the second world war.
  
  What we see are politicos awakening to the fact that Islam is at odds with western culture, politics, root religious belief and the general ethos of 'live and let live', and as such they have started an attempt to 'dissuade and resist' Muslim engulfment, which is a real possibility as Islamic families are breeding at a factor of 8, whereas non Muslims have dropped below even replacement levels, which are 2.2.
  
  I think France is a little better off, being a nominally Catholic society, but the UK (for example) has dropped to 1.6 which is a level from which no nation has recovered.
  
  It's good that we can openly discuss these things, but bear in mind that once Islam rules in the Northern Hemisphere, these discussions, and in all probability HubPages itself, would be banned from airing our views.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Nonsense. Like the pre-ceeding, now-dying, Kristian religion, Islam will die a death of a thousand cuts in much the same way. They are just a few hundred year behind us - and - oddly enough, following almost exactly the same path. Not long ago - your church would have burned me for the heretic I most certainly am and was adamantly against new knowledge. They are already splintering into lots of factions and fighting amongst themselves.
  
  No - we will murder them instead of letting this scenario come to pass. I most certainly would rather be dead than submit to any religion's dictates - especially the ones you suggest here - yours or theirs.
  
  The Fascist USA Government Inc is more likely to come to power first. Should be a good war they are planning. See how many troops the USA Inc has in our part of the world? They certainly seem intent on fighting it in our back yards rather than their own.
  
  Tony Blair was paid handsomely for his part in the whole thing. Though - I gather he is claiming he was doing God's work now. That goes down well in the American lecture circuit I understand.
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  alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  very well put and bang on the nail. The only fly in the war scenario may be China who would appear to be ready to stand up and be the next top dog. War plan scenario's only work if the playing field stays the same - it may change drastically over the next few years. I cannot see much possibility of a Vietnam type action around the fringes of China any more - not because of China directly but opinion in the whole area extending as far as Australia, Russia and Japan. Also I guess they sat by and watched the west, behind america, bankrupt Russia with an arms war, and they realise that bankruptcy is the most effective weapon in the arsenal; much of the west now seems to be teetering on the edge of bankruptcy just kept from falling by just enough Chinese money, among many other things of course.
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  aguasilverposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  But Mark, if the Muslims are 'just a few hundred years' behind the decline of Churchianity, but they gain numeric supremacy in the next 50 years, you will be subjected to exactly what you would rather die than live under, and (by Islamic standards) you would not be a heretic, you would be an 'infidel' and as such killed anyway.
  
  I am delighted you are safe under a quasi Christian system from death for heresy, and indeed had I lived in earlier times I would most definitely have been burnt as a heretic alongside you, albeit for different reasons, but we would both have been killed, you for you non belief, me for my belief.
  
  Fascist USA is well in place we agree, and China is already running things from the wings.
  
  I was told in 1979 by a US spook that the world would end up 'Chinese and English speaking'and having just relocated to SE Asia I can see that the Chinese are very influential.
  
  Indeed even in the bible it tells us that a 200 million strong army will walk across the dried up Euphrates into the mid east.... who do you think those will be?
  
  Interestingly Saddam created the technology to allow the Euphrates to be 'dried up'....
  
  We live in exciting times!
  
  PS Tony Blair was a liar from the start and is an Illuminati Mason hiding in Catholicism like these guys have done for centuries.
  
  We need to differentiate between people of faith and those who hide behind fake protestations of faith for political or financial advantage.
  
  Our actions speak better than words, preach the good news at all times, if no other way exists, use words!
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friend aguasilver
  
  There are no instruction in Quran for killing infidels.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi friends
  
  That would against humanity.
  
  Thanks
  
  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago
I really don't see anything wrong with this. The public wearing of these burqas hinders public safety. I say good for france.
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Daniel Carterposted 14 years ago
I have to agree--nothing wrong with the ban. Public safety is the issue, and they can certainly wear burkas, etc., in more private gatherings.
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
what ever happened to freedom?
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
just testing public opinion
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
I don't like the idea that people should be exposed or have to provide information about themselves for no reason.

I think the notion of being innocent until proven otherwise is important. I should be able to go around in anonymity and in freedom if there is no reason to believe I have broken any laws, and it should not be assumed that I am about to commit a crime either.

That being said, I am also very pretty, so to mask someone like me would be a crime against humanity
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Aya Katzposted 14 years ago
I disagree. This is not about public safety. These women can see where they are going, so it's not about being afraid that they'll bump into somebody by accident.

It's about culture clash. It's about wanting to view the role of women one way, rather than another. But don't you think the individual women should decide?

I myself would never want to dress like that or be treated like that. But if this happened in the U.S., I would fight to defend another woman's right to make a different choice.
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  IzzyMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't agree with your view at all Aya.
  I don't think its about culture clash - it's about a growing awareness of public safety. In more and more towns and cities throughout the world CCTV is being installed on streets to watch what people are up to, and no I don't see that as 'big-brother-is-watching-you'.
  It's to combat a rising flood of crime. 50 years ago people could leave their doors unlocked and no-one would steal anything.
  Grannies could queue for their pension without fear of being mugged. Poeple could walk down the street in broad daylight minding their own business without fear of being mugged (though that still happened in back alleyways.
  People wearing clothing that hides the face defeats the whole object of CCTV identification.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  are we to ban winter hoods then? Up in Canada, we dress like this 10 months out of the year...
  
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Hi GreekOne
  
  I used to sell Islamic face veils on ebay and I had a regular non-muslim Canadian customer who loved to wear them because of the weather.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  that was me!
  
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  FranyaBlueposted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  pisean282311posted 14 years agoin reply to this
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  saltposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes, but we all know canadians are crazy...
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  People (men and women, and children) use winter hoods because it is cold, and not because a woman is born or destined to serve a man, and listen to him with obedience! They wear veils because of the belief that they seduce men with their hair?! And little girls also wear veils!!! What´s the fuss about anyway? In their own country, let them wear what they want, but in a country of other customs and traditions let them show respect by assimilating!!!! Most of them live on social welfare in European Union countries, so you cannot say they are not accepted by natives. How about them accepting something else European, other than money?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol. show respect by assimilating? That is what every tyrant and dictator throughout history has wanted people to do. What is 'freedom' if we are to follow the will of the majority or those in power.
  
  I'm not in favor of pressuring women to do anything, but I am also not in favor of the government forcing them to NOT do something either.
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is all about security man. We shouldn't forget that. Alot of terrorists use that viel to hide behind. Too bad for em. They did it to themselves.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  come on... NONE of this is about security.
  
  It's about people looking and acting in a way that is different from you and me.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ha ha, it seems I would be one hell of a tyrant. Funny, all of this, funny indeed!! Well, how nice it is that we can all express our opinions...Freedom, what is more relative than that?
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree... and freedom of expression can take the form of words, actions, dress.. etc
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  raisingmeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now that's Funnneeee - true and funny! If the reason behind this ban is really so that people can be recognized and identified, I'm wondering if it's going to apply to the celebrities who done all manner of paraphernalia in order to escape detection while out and about with the common folk! Women no more dying your hair, men off with your toupees!
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and we must make sure the collars match the cuffs!
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  raisingmeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  of course - but if they ban seal skin, which they ought, we will have to resort to synthetics. And look at me I can spell paraphernalia but not don....oh dear!
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What percentage of armed robbers or muggers consists of Muslim women wearing traditional garb? I just don't see it!
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  IzzyMposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Probably none, but if they are allowed to wear them, and according to the OP more and more of them are wearing them on the streets, then the mugger has an excellent opportunity to dress the same as them and mug someone.
  Same with going into a bank, or a post office, or even a supermarket. The risk is there and it is a very real risk. And of course it would be impossible to identify the mugger if he wasn't caught at the time!
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then it's a pretext.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Read the paper! It is a trend actually. A woman killed 40 Russains recently (killing herself BTW) to revenge her husband who killed hundreds of innocent people.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, ask any of these women, are they equal to men...No, being the answer (and they will agree to this as it is normal for them - that is the way they are brought up) - is that not a violation of human rights? Is that not discrimination of female gender? (At least, for those brought up in total freedom). In their own country, let them wear wat they want, but if they came to live in another culture, they should accept the traditions of a culture they decided to live in! Nothing wrong with that!
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you truly believe in human rights, then you believe in the right of each person to make their own decision -- even Muslim women. Equality is something that we have the right to choose for ourselves -- or to reject. Otherwise, there is no freedom!
  
  Western culture includes freedom of religion. To the extent that freedom is denied, it's no different from Eastern culture.
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The problem with saying that women should have the right to decide for themselves is that often they don't - their fathers, husbands and brothers make the decisions for them. That's the whole point of the ban - trying to combat a culture where women are not free to decide for themselves, and to make a statement that it is not ok for women to be treated that way in Europe.
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  In a free country, if an adult woman wants to leave her father, her brother or husband, and they detain her, then they are committing a crime. She can call for help. She can seek asylum.
  
  That's a choice that free people have in a free country.
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's not that simple though is it. At the extreme end there are the so called 'honour killings', and at the other end women are faced with being completely ostracized from their community if they disobey, and are raised from an early age to believe they will be condemned to hell if they disobey their husband / father. It's rarely about physical detention as you suggest, and even if it was like that it would be the word of one person against the whole of the rest of the family, and quite possibly the whole of the local community as well.
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe in theory, but not in practice!
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  vox vocisposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, in that case children should be allowed to use weapons as some are taught that way since the day they were born, especially because they believe they fight for the right cause and defend their freedom??? Why do these women choose so? They do not know any better. I have heard many sad, sad stories, and believe me, they cannot do anything about it even if they think otherwise, because they do not have the right to say their opinion. They have the right only to agree.
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  raisingmeposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed Aya Katz - Did any other culture come into North America not even a hundred years ago and force us to stop viewing woman as chattel or did the change come from within? I have a good friend who is Muslim from Kuwait and she wears a head cover by choice - she told me it is no different then women here wearing a wedding ring. She chooses to cover her head, I choose to wear a wedding band. When she went to university (giving away both our ages here) she wore mini skirts! Note I said university and mini skirts! With regard to the face covering, when I asked her, she said there are extremists. But we don't have any of those in North America do we...and we've never oppressed a peoples have we? If change is to be successful whether it be individually or collectively it has to come from within - go within!
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  Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm with you on this one Aya.
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Alotaposted 14 years ago
I think the French are right
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the Frnech have NEVER been right lol
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  there has to be a first time for everything.
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paarsurreyposted 14 years ago
Muslims to be Banned across Europe

Hi friends

Burga is to be banned not the Muslims; the topic needs to be corrected; spreads a wrong conception.

Thanks

I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  its the next step paarsurrey...
  
  first you ban the outward expression of their faith, then their other customes.. it's a slippery path
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Mark Knowlesposted 14 years ago
No - it is culture/religion clash. The Ialamic fundies are pushing to make a point and the Katholic fundies are using their political clout to get something done about it.

Unlike the UK - France and Italy are not covered in CCTV cameras - which don't do a damn thing to combat the "rising flood of crime," that has been bought about by shipping a lot of paying jobs to Eastern Europe/North Africa/China to save a few bucks and at the same time encouraging more immigrants to live in public housing, because that gives the local Mayor more political clout at the regional councils and they get back handers from their construction industry friends.

Not a good situation - and can only end in tears. I am usually 100% against The Government Inc getting involved, but - this is better than the clash that is inevitable if they don't do something about it.

And yes - I do see the CCTV as big brother. I am more afraid of that than I am of being mugged, because I do not trust the Government Inc - and anyone who does wants their heads examined. It is not a deterrent in any fashion. So - they might have a slightly better chance of catching the afterwards. Great
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you about the culture clash and the big brother issue.
  
  But I don't agree that this is a good way to combat religious extremism -- this is exactly the sort of policy that fosters polarization. Moderate Muslims will rightly see this as a form of religious persecution, and there will be a rise in recruits among the fundamentalists.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then what is your solution?
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Let them wear whatever head gear they like. Catch criminals when they commit crimes. Leave everyone else to make their own decisions about their lives. Be merciless to terrorists, but show tolerance to minor deviations from the Western dress code.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I see you do not understand the problem. This has absolutely nothing to do with crime or terrorism. This is politics. Muslim women being used by Islamic fundies to make a point in the face of the Katholics. You are not going to get the Katholics to back down.
  
  Now what is your solution? The Islamic fundies are going to rub this into the ruling Katholic fundies faces to get a reaction. You either ban them, or it will get pushed and pushed more and more.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  so let it get pushed.
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Will there be a fight after school tonight??
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am a lover.. not a fighter...
  
  although I have been told that the way I make love is 'brutal'
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is not me you need to talk to - try the Pope.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  he won't answer my calls... something about not being German
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  I laugh - But - This is getting bad. Laws against wearing clothes? In France? You know some one had their buttons pushed. The Katholics pushed the French courts into convicting the Scientologists of "fraud" last year. Far as I know it is illegal now.
  
  This from the guys with the talking snake and everlasting life if you follow the guy that came back from the dead?
  
  Seriously - I am moving to the country and buying a gun.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah.. it's safer in Oklahoma
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The scientologists were (and are) commiting fraud - have you ever heard the nonsense they use to con money out of people?
  
  And it's not the Katholics who have been pushing for this, whoever they are, it's the secularists - France has a very strong secular tradition.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOLOLOL
  
  I live in France.
  
  Have you heard the Katholic nonsense to con people out of money?
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's just as much nonsense, but Catholic priests don't generally profit from it personally in the same way as the people who run scientology - the church itself keeps all the riches.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. What planet are you living on?
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I must admit, I still don't see the problem, unless what you mean is that Catholics in Europe rule and get to make all the decisions based on their religious affiliation. But the fact that they use the pretext of "security" must mean that there are secular voters that they want to appeal to -- voters who do not share their faith, but do share their cultural prejudices. If that is the case, anyone who wants peace should explain the pretext to innocent secular voters who do not share the Catholic agenda.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Like I said - there is a clash here - between two warring political religions that have been going at it since forever.
  
  I personally prefer this to the old ways.
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What old ways? Where all the moderates have to pick which fundamentalist side they are on?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't this better?
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No! That's what leads to Balkanization.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well - all you need to do is curb the Katholics from being upset and away you go. LOL So - no practical solution then?
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Who cares whether or not they are upset? The question is: how much power do they have and who is giving it to them? Aren't most of the French unbelievers?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good God no - heavily Katholic.
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  Don Wposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Despite what any anti-religionist might suggest, this is not just a Christian vs. Islam thing. That's part of the manoeuvring too. That group would like nothing more than to be seen as standing on the sidelines (a picture of calm reason) as Christianity and Islam engage in a socio-political slugfest. In reality it's more complex than that. There are more players than two religious groups.
  
  The Muslims are being poked with a big stick right now. Of those holding the stick some are Christian fundies, some are anti-religionists, some are racists, and some just feminists. They're all holding the stick because it serves their purpose, a jab at Islam, religion, Arabs and male chauvinism respectively.
  
  In addition it serves the purpose of some western political leaders to portray themselves as "defending their way of life" from Muslims. Either for local political reasons (Sarkozy's had it rough in terms of public opinion recently), or to help bolster support for foreign policy (most western countries have armed forces currently engaged in conflicts with Muslims). Either way, poking the Muslims with a big stick seems to serve everyone's purpose at the moment.
  
  Unfortunately justice and freedom are the main casualties.But these groups aren't going to miss this golden opportunity. Right now the issues of "security" and "safety" and "female dignity" allows them to have a jab at the Muslims, while pretending they're doing something useful and not having a jab at the Muslims at all.
  
  Personally I think it plays into the hands of Islamic extremists as this sort of thing makes fantastic recruitment material. The only group that would benefit from that strangely enough is the anti-religionists, because the more violent and extreme the situation gets, the stronger the anti-religion argument becomes, understandably.
  
  I agree with you Aya, I think there are other solutions to these issues. But the political benefits to these groups of wielding their big stick are much too appealing and much easier to obtain. Whether they're allowed to continue will depend on the extent to which "The People" allow themselves to be duped and how much propaganda they are prepared to swallow. But considering the groups I've mentioned probably make up quite a large proportion of "The People", I don't think it looks good.
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LeanManposted 14 years ago
I'm all for equality, lets ban all religion....

Too much trouble caused by it and I could write several hubs in the time that I would not be in the forums talking about it..
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watchyaposted 14 years ago
Lets kill everybody , including ourselves !
Where's Freedom? Where's Respect?

People being brainwashed by fear. All the time !
Now it's the time for Muslims !

Get real ! You're being manipulated.

Freedom is nowhere to be seen nowadays.Don't you get it ?

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watchyaposted 14 years ago
OF COURSE !
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I live in Saudi, they have banned christianity here even if they don't say so.. no churches allowed, can't carry bibles or wear christian jewlery etc.. Can't have prayer meetings etc.. So why can't the rest of the world ban Islam??
  
  As to freedom, not had any of that ever.... lol
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the difference is. Occident brags about freedom, while Muslims never did !
  
  And
  
  Yeah What freedom ? Never seen it, lately !
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Pandoras Boxposted 14 years ago
If -due to public safety concerns- I can't walk naked down broadway and you can't wear your leather s&m face mask into a bank, why are we giving muslims (or anyone) a pass on it because of their religion?!!

Law of the land here requires certain standards in dress, which are after all fairly minimal. Our countries are NOT run by the Taliban. If that is the type of government and freedom someone is looking for, they should go back and fight alongside the other extremists instead of trying to take advantage of western tolerance and impose themselves upon our safeties based on their religious excuses.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i would vote to let you walk naked down broadway
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Naked...... NO....
  
  We need some standards.... lacy briefs and peephole bra to maintain some standards please...
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  dont hurt my natural right to see naked boobs in all their glory!
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Most are better viewed in the unnatural confines of a bra to keep their shape.... (sorry girls!!)
  
  Most naked ones are in my opinion quite disappointing... but then I'm an ass and legs man... lol
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  i myself am a vagina man
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the banning of a traditional way of dress IS Taliban-like
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think that the Taliban ever banned anyone from walking naked down broadway did they???
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yes.. i think they did try that
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I know that the Taliban have a major impact on our modern society with all that coke that they supply... They must be really quite chilled out and cool... maybe it's just when we firebomb their fields and they can't get their fix that they become such nasty bastar....
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  if you couldnt see a woman's face all day long, wouldn;t you be stressed out too?
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I live in Saudi Arabia.... I don't see women's faces all day long...
  
  It gets quite sexxy looking at their eyes and trying to imagine who they are and what they look like...
  
  What gets me is when I am out in the shops two women will suddenly recognize each other and start chatting... how do they know??????
  
  Also, how do the men know which woman was theirs when they pick up their wives from the malls????
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  if they are allowed to have multiple wives, the men just guess. odds are they will be right some of the time.
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe they do it by smell.... some of them have a very definite we can't afford water and scrub with sand pong to them..
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Greek Oneposted 14 years ago
i don't think that ancient Roman society is an ideal template upon which to model a modern, democratic society.

If a country wishes to establish laws that are not based on individual freedom, rights and liberty, like many in the Middle East, then so be it...

but then they shouldn't try to bull@#%@% people into thinking they still stand for freedom
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm all for nightly orgies, I vote roman society...
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  Aya Katzposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree.
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
I was going to write a speel of shit about the degradation of women in Islam....

but I will simply say,... I love it.

And save myself the headache.
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TMMasonposted 14 years ago
Isn't the title of this topic just a bit hyperbolic?

I have seen no mass deportations of Muslims from Europe, yet.

Then again we know how those Europeans are racist. Man they hate everyone. I mean. They must have some of the most oppressive regimes I have ever witnessed. And Americans have the nerve to complain about China and Islam.

Stop the European oppression of the world, I say.
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Which regimes are those? Do you mean Britain, where human rights were invented? Or perhaps you mean Greece, where democracy was invented?
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think just about every society has expelled another religious group or declared war on another country or people at some point in their history..
  
  The Uk expelled all of the Jews at one point, the germans took it to a greater level, the "americans" destroyed most of the natives and so on.... There is not an innocent nation out there if you go back far enough..
  
  We have all moved on a little since those days and it is time to grow up and live with one another, forget the past and grow up a bit...
  
  If you want to live in america, live there, if you want to live in pakistan do so.. If you don't like the rules in the country you are in move to one you do like! But let people live as they want to live!!!!
  
  So why exactly are these crazy muslims trying to blow us up for anyway?? Do they know??? The islamic faith says that they should tolerate other religions not blow them up.... If they don't like america don't go there... there are plenty of countries living by their rules, stay there...
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  All the ones that spwaned that racist hateful step-child, America.
  
  lolololol
  
  Damn Americans, ignorant batch.
  
  Hey they made it illegal to deny the Holocuast in Europe too. That has to irratate alot of Muslims also. You can't do anything fun in Europe if your a Muslim. That sucks.
  
  I say they outlaw being European next.... start with a ban on the fish and chips. And those stupid looking outfits you make the guards dress in at buckingham palace.
  
  Sorry. Couldn't really think of anything important that is british to ban. ?... you think of something feel free to chime in.
  
  Oh I guess all Europeans are not British... but you can't tell one from another these days anyways.
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I think I just had a sense of humour breakdown when reading your earlier post. There's so much crazy stuff on these forums I assumed you were serious and missed the obvious sarcasm!
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thats okay I have that effect alot....
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myownworldposted 14 years ago
Banning someone NOT to wear a face veil is as bad as forcing them to wear it. To make a law of it, is really going too far. Yet, when all is said and done, when you live in a country, you have to live by their laws, good or bad. If a western woman walked around in shorts in a strictly muslim country, you'd be shocked how quickly you'd have a 'fatwa' against her! Trust me, they have their own laws that you're expected to follow. And they don't bend them for anyone.

Not that I'm saying we should follow their example, but just that I don't understand why muslims are so up in arms about something they themselves don't practice in their own countries!

(p.s I was born and raised in a muslim country, so I speak from experience)
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure you run away as fast as you could
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  well hello MOW!
  
  To be fair to the Islamic states, up here in Canada, when I walk around in shorts, many people protest that as well...
  
  and while they don't issue a 'fatwa' per say, they do call me a 'fatone'
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  myownworldposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it's really no laughing matter Greek...(although that was very funny!)
  But trust me, it's scary almost, even as a muslim woman. I stopped wearing a muslim dress ages ago - I have yet to try on anything more suffocating than a burqa.... I swear your head spins with the heat you absorb all day long!!
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  tell me, did you wear make up under all that?
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  myownworldposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  lol... well, in pakistan, the veil is not a must, but I lived in Dubai for a while too, and there muslim women did wear one. A proper black one, they call it 'ubabya' - horrible stuff that. And the worst part is underneath it's not just make up, but the most gaudy clothing too.... and lots of perfume...and designer wear too. After all, a good muslim woman has to use all her energies into making her 'adornments' as attractive as she can for her husband...
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  and do flights leave for Dubai on a regular basis?
  
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  Non-offensiveUserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure your 'adornments' are quite attractive!
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The perfumes they use here are on the whole terrible, combined with the body odor that many suffer from when covered with all these layers in the heat they can quite frankly make you gag....
  
  Every woman here wears the abaya, and most are fully veiled, not even the eyes showing......
  
  Quite frightening at times... imagine walking through the mall as a horde of women dressed as Ninjas come towards you.... lol
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  Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is there a Victoria's Secret in Dubai?
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  Bill Millerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but the location is secret!
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  it's located in a jail
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  Bill Millerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Which happens to be next to a rock quarry.
  
  Coincidence?
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
Total freedom is impossible.
Should we have the freedom to kill?
Or walk into someone's home uninvited.

Shouldn't the government have the right to be able to identify everyone.

If a Muslim woman hurt one of your loved ones but the court said they couldn't prosecute because they couldn't identify her, wouldn't that upset you ?
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  the government identifies everyone. what do you think your ID is for ?
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your answers are ridiculous
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  Non-offensiveUserposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'm right there with you one that one...
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shouldn't the government have the right to be able to identify everyone?
  
  no.. no they shouldn't have the right to instantly identify someone who is not breaking a law.
  
  and total freedom is not possible.. but people should be free to do what they want so long as it doesnt harm others... and a person's dress in an of itself does not harm me
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you can't see her face how do you know who she is? How do you know she has done nothing wrong?
  Many criminals hide behind a mask.
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  Greek Oneposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  why would we suppose that someone has done something wrong?
  
  We are innocent until proven otherwise... not suspected guilty of something until we can prove we are not
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  what are fingerprints for ?
  
  you people crack me up !!
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  Bill Millerposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Gloves are burkas for the hand!
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  
  we are all Muslims in winter lol
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know how many men I know who have dressed as women in full abaya to go places that they should not go..... Plenty....
  
  How would you identify the shoplifter in her black dress if she leaves no fingerprints and her face is never on show to the camera??
  
  I don't care if they cover or not, but there are places where they should uncover such as airports where they have to have their passports checked and so on, I remember one guy left the UK to escape prosecution a little while back using the veil and a woman's passport..
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  watchyaposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  If you like to be paranoid and a slave to the system, it's your choice.
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  kephriraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That really is crazy. Teenagers in hooded tops are banned from shopping centers, but you can walk through customs in a burqa. Totally crazy. They are complaining about the new scanners at airports too cos they say it's like being seen naked if you go through an xray scanner, which is worrying if they do manage to stop them.
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  Deborah Sextonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  We should be able to identify by sight.
  If she does something wrong, any witness can only say she was someone who covered her face.
  And what if her finger prints are not on file or she wears gloves?
  
  Life is so simple to you.
  
  But than you are stuck in a place that has no time and you can't get out. (you said it yourself)
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Deborah Sextonposted 14 years ago
Two years ago at work the rules were changed and no one could wear hats. One Jewish worker who always wore a Kippah said that he always wore his hat. They said remove or be fired.
One of the female supervisors was from India and always wore a white material (name??) that covered her head neck and shoulders.
The Jewish guy said make her remove her's first. He was told "no" that is part of her religion. He would not remove his and was terminated.
I looked it up on the internet. They do not have to wear them. Those who are wealthy or regal wear them. She was neither.

The Jewish guy sued and won. As he should have.

This supervisor thought cutting the heads off of the men in the Middle East was very fair for the imprisonment of their men.
Only evil people think this way.
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sabrebIadeposted 14 years ago
We already have laws against it in NC.....

14-12.7. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public ways.
No person or persons at least 16 years of age shall, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, be or appear upon any lane, walkway, alley, street, road, highway or other public way in this State. (1953, c. 1193, s. 6; 1983, c. 175, ss. 1, 10; c. 720, s. 4.)

14-12.8. Wearing of masks, hoods, etc., on public property.
No person or persons shall in this State, while wearing any mask, hood or device whereby the person, face or voice is disguised so as to conceal the identity of the wearer, enter, or appear upon or within the public property of any municipality or county of the State, or of the State of North Carolina. (1953, c. 1193, s. 7.)

I always assumed Muslims were exempt due to religion reasons.
But I don't see an "except for" anywhere.

But wouldn't that law also cover the surgical masks that were so popular during the Swine Flu scare?

Of course here in the South the laws were passed due to the KKK.
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waynetposted 14 years ago
Good, they are rubbish ninjas anyway, I mean they have no samurai swords or any throwing stars....
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Onusonusposted 14 years ago
I say bann the birquas, but not for safety issues. They shouldn't be allowed to live by their God given rights to religious fidelity.
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
The ban is gaining momentum
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sagbeeposted 14 years ago
Why Muslims are to be banned.. I don't see any problem with teh religion,. the roblem occurs when the muslims are considered as terrorists when they are actually not.. Its only handful of muslims who pave way to terrorism.. not all ...
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, most Muslims are not terrorists, and quite frankly most of the terrorists are hardly Muslims!!!!
  
  Anyway, most of the Muslims I know are too busy chasing women and getting drunk or high to be a terrorist!!
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
indeed can a true muslim be a terrorist
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  LeanManposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Muslim, Jewish, Christian... all the same god, just a bit of a disagreement regarding the prophets and what the PEOPLE in charge of the religions say we should do....
  
  As to the religions, they all preach tolerance and being nice to each other.. so how about it guys??? Wanna kiss and make up and be best buddies???
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  net_crazyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Just love you Leanman!
  And you know what?, Islam teaches the same.
  Islam is a religion which teaches it's followers to spread peace ll over the world.
  And I must say that Terrorists are not Muslims. I'm from Pakistan and my cousin was also killed in a suicide bomb blast.
  Now if terrorists are Muslims, how can they kill other Muslims???
  
  Peace!
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  premierkjposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't really agree with France on the basis that this is such a small world now, every religion is an occupant of every country. Should we ban catholic priests from preaching in Africa since that has way more of an influence than simple attire. Really it should be the choice of the women who wear these things. I'm not sure what they would choose though.
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
Peace:)
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
Peace among the nations
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Evan G Rogersposted 14 years ago
Racism stems from evolution: those that are similar to yourself are likely to be helped because you share similar genes.

Religion is merely an extension of this evolutionary doctrine.

Government as well is simply an extension of this idea.

Learn to ignore these idiotic ideas, and begin to embrace the idea that all people are people, and we can all get along.

There is no such thing as "an american". there is no such thing as "France". and there is no such thing as "a Christian". There are merely people. Some who hate, some who love.

Fuggidabboudit.
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  Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "There is no such thing as "an american"."
  
  Of course there is.
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net_crazyposted 14 years ago
And you know what?, Islam teaches the same.
Islam is a religion which teaches it's followers to spread peace ll over the world.
And I must say that Terrorists are not Muslims. I'm from Pakistan and my cousin was also killed in a suicide bomb blast.
Now if terrorists are Muslims, how can they kill other Muslims???
Love humanity!
Peace!
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saltposted 14 years ago
the objective of the burqua from what I was told is that it is to protect a part of the female head ... to maintain purity of a sacred part of the head.

I have once or twice looked when people have had the full burqua on and understand the related feelings that some may have.

I also understand that I like my hippie pants.. if you take away the bruqua, can you legislate to take away my hippy pants???

The comfy thai fisherman pants...

I suppose alot of people feel also, that it is a safety factor as well as one of female rights. Do women wear the burqua for purely religious reasons or because they have been made to wear it by their male family members or church..

And if you are jewish, would you give up your yamicka???

Finally, there are versions of the burqua or head part of that are quite fitted and show no security threat... maybe a compromise could be made?
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  (Q)posted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose that if the misogynist religion that you were indoctrinated into from childhood drove it into your head that you must wear those 'comfy thai fisherman pants' in order to maintain the purity of a body part concealed there for the sanctity of your indoctrinated spouse who was taught he cannot control his sexual urges, or else be sent to a fiery fate for an eternity... yeah, maybe there's a compromise in there somewhere. What would you compromise, then?
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
Is it simply discrimination
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VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 14 years ago
While there are pressing problems for humanity around the world, it is unnecessary to attend to the issue of burqas, etc.
Even if the dressing helps terrorism, one should not be treated as a terrorist untill he engages or commits that terror act. Then they may be dealt with as per law.

Wearing a helmet during driving also serves the same purpose. So, ban the helmet also for 2 wheeler riders.

Banning muslims across Europe in no way will affect them. Their oil will drive your vehicles.
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LeanManposted 14 years ago
A few guys I know here in saudi arabia have used the full veil to get themselves smuggled into the woman's quarters for a night of fun... getting through the gate amongst a large group of women all dressed as wild ninja is fairly easy... Just a pity that I am 6 feet 2 inches tall and would stand out like a sore whatsit..
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  TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Good thing they don't apply that tactic to thier suicide bombings... oh wait.
  
  Islam should be banned as hate speech. Plenty of hatred exists within its corpus to support the charge and condemnation.
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ns1209posted 14 years ago
Very relevant Nana!

I think we have the right to ban Islam in Europe. We are so worried about racism in Europe and yet if we were to walk down their streets who would be treated worse - us!

We worry too much! I know people are racist to these people and do treat them unfairly but what do they expect - wearing ridiculous things which hide their faces in countries where that is not the norm! What do they expect and what must they think of us when people sunbathe with almost nothing on!

If you go someone accept their culture - not try to change it! If I went to a Muslim country I would cover my legs for them - however stupid their rules must be! Also do these women really want to go round like this - I sure would not!
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theirishobserver.posted 14 years ago
Equal rights for all
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