Asian men raping children, why so many?

1. 61

   theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

   Disproportionate number of child sex offenders 'are Asian men'
   Study carried out in wake of conviction of grooming gang in Derbyshire
   Peter Davies, director of the CEOP, warned that the data was not comprehensive enough to draw firm conclusions. He said: 'Focusing on this problem simply through the lens of ethnicity does not do it service.'
   A disproportionate number of child sex offenders 'are Asian men' a survey appears to suggest.
   The report was undertaken after the conviction of the ringleaders of a grooming gang in Derbyshire which preyed on girls aged between 12 and 18.
   Half of the 2,379 offenders identified in the research revealed today by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre gave their ethnicity, with 26 per cent of those being Asian and 38 per cent white.
   
   This compares with the general population of the UK which is around 90 per cent white and about four per cent Asian.
   Controversy erupted over the ethnicity issue when former justice secretary Jack Straw accused some Pakistani men in Britain of seeing white girls as 'easy meat' for sexual abuse.
   
   In January, Mr Straw said child sex grooming was a 'specific problem' in the Pakistani community which needed to be 'more open' about the reasons behind it.
   However, Peter Davies, director of the CEOP,  warned that the data was not comprehensive enough to draw firm conclusions.
   
   He said: 'Focusing on this problem simply through the lens of ethnicity does not do it service.'
   
   And the report added: 'Caution should be taken in drawing conclusions about ethnicity due to the relatively small number of areas where agencies have been proactive around this particular type of crime'.
   
   Jailed: Abid Mohammed Saddique (left) and Mohammed Romaan Liaqat (right), were leaders of the paedophile ring in Derby
   
   A breakdown of the offenders recorded since the start of 2008 found most were men aged 18 to 24. Ethnicity had only been identified in half the cases.
   More...Paedophile with computer file of 22 dead baby pictures reached 'new level of depravity'
   
   Of these, 26 per cent were Asian, 38 per cent were white, 32 per cent were recorded as unknown, three per cent black and 0.2 per cent Chinese.
   Around 90 per cent of the victims were white.
   The catalyst for the study was the conviction of the Derbyshire paedophile gang leaders in January.
   
   A court heard Abid Saddique and Mohammed Liaqat, who were each married with a child, cruised the streets of Derby in a car looking for victims while their unsuspecting families waited at home for them.
   The vulnerable children were plied with vodka stored under the seats of the car and were taken to parks, hotel rooms or houses, where they were sometimes offered cocaine before being pressured into sex.
   
   The CEOP report is based on testimonies from victims, police and child protection workers, as well as a review of existing research.
   Some of the victims were runaways, and CEOP has found that missing children or those who run away from home are the most susceptible to grooming.
   The CEOP research released today also found that two thirds of protection services provided by local councils failed to hit national recommendations and failed to put in place 'basic processes' to stop sexual abuse.
   Mr Davies said he was 'shocked, surprised and disappointed' at the lack of action.
   
   ''This is a horrific kind of crime. It involves systematic, premeditated rape of children and needs to be understood in those stark terms. It needs to be brought out of the dark'Speaking about some council children's boards, Mr Davies said: 'They do not appear to have set up the basic processes that are expected in the national guidelines to tackle child sexual exploitation.'
   He described the abuse of children as a 'horrific systemic crime that is designed to take place under their radar'.
   
   The CEOP study had focused on 'localised grooming' that takes place in person, for example on the street, rather than via the internet.
   The report is based on testimonies from victims, police and child protection workers, as well as a review of existing research.
   Mr Davies said: 'This is a horrific kind of crime. It involves systematic, premeditated rape of children and needs to be understood in those stark terms. It needs to be brought out of the dark.'
   
   The study found that victims had trouble engaging with police and were 'hugely reluctant' to give evidence against their 'ruthless' abusers in court.
   
   Mr Davies said: 'They did not expect to be believed, they did not expect to be supported.'
   
   Victims are cut off from their normal support networks in the grooming process, are left 'disorientated' and are emotionally manipulated as part of the abuse.
   
   Children's charities called for action to provide a clearer picture of the scale of the problem.
   
   John Grounds, director of the NSPCC's Child Protection Consultancy, said: 'This is an important piece of work as it has underlined some vital issues around the street grooming of children.
   Cruising the streets: Police surveillance footage shows Mohammed Liaqat and Abid Mohammed Saddique in their BMW speaking to girls in Derby
   'Worryingly it is virtually a hidden problem - as this report highlights - there is very little data to give a clear picture of how extensive it is.
   
   'We would like to see better and more consistent data collection and improved training for professionals working in this field.
   
   'Hopefully this research by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre will encourage the relevant agencies to adopt a much more coordinated approach to this type of grooming.
   
   'It puts vulnerable children at risk of serious sex abuse and leaves them at the mercy of unscrupulous men who pretend to be their friends but in reality are dangerous predators.'
   
   The Children's Society's policy director Enver Solomon called for a greater focus on the 100,000 children under 16 who run away each year.
   
   He said: 'For far too long child grooming has been a hidden issue, with dangerous perpetrators targeting vulnerable girls and boys in the shadows of our society.
   'The CEOP assessment exposes the significant challenges faced in stamping out this shocking abuse. Critically it highlights that children who run away are particularly vulnerable to exploitation yet professionals are often unaware of this.
   
   'Child grooming cannot be addressed without actively looking at the issue of children running away.'
   
   Terina Keene, chief executive at Railway Children, said: 'A much better grip on the numbers and evidence must be the first major step in tackling child sexual exploitation and grooming.
   
   'The brakes also need to be put on the indiscriminate cuts into youth provision, otherwise a vital frontline link to those most at risk will be lost and the clearest possible picture of the problem will become a blur to both Government and police, making the safeguarding of these children pot luck.'
   
   Mr Davies said more research will be carried out into the type of people guilty of sexually abusing children, including their ethnicity. Their motivations will also be examined.

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      AnnCeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      "Asian" aka Muslim.

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         psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         And who is raping Asian children in Indonesia as sex tourists? White Americans and Australians, read "Christians".
         
         Different groups commit different crimes in different places.  You can't generalize any of it to the entire population.

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      RachaelLeflerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I do think it has to do with a cultural difference, and dissonance between the cultures of Britain and Pakistan. Not every culture believes in the same exact age of consent. Generalizing a group as big as all Muslims is wrong here because there are many, many types of Muslims in many many countries, thus there are many ways of interpreting Muslim law and values. I think this is a possible indication that there is a Pakistani cultural difference at work, or it's possible that these men are lashing out because they come from a sexually repressive conservative culture and criminal behavior gives them an outlet.

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         AnnCeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Seems like Islamic religious leaders would loudly condemn and even chastise these criminals?   It's kind of an authoritarian religion over all is it not?

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      Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You seem to be hung up on child rape. Why not comment or write a hub on something more pleasant like native flowers of Ireland?

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   Aficionadaposted 13 years ago

   This is truly horrifying, no matter what ethnicity.

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      kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      think its all around just rotates different groups of people in the media
      
      psst

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   TMMasonposted 13 years ago

   Becasue it is LAWFUL under ISLAMIC SHARIA to have sex with lil girls and boys. No big secret there.

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      psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      You think the men described in the article as cruising the street for abusive out-of-wedlock and adulterous sexual contact with boxes full of vodka are following Sharia law?  I kind of doubt it.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Proof please.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      By the way, not all Asian men are Muslim, many are Christians.

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         TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think I pointed out to you that not all Muslims are asians either. It has nothing to do with ethnicity.

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            John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, that was what confused me about your sudden outburst about Islam.

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               AnnCeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Oh come on John, you live there, you know "Asian" in these girl rape cases anyway is pc code for Muslim.

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                  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  That doesn't actually make it true.
                  Even if the scare mongers are using Asian as code for Muslim, it is still false and doesn't alter the fact that not all Asians are Muslim and not all Muslims are child rapists.

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                     AnnCeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Not the scare mongers, John.  The media in Britain doesn't like to say right out that it is Muslim men who are grooming these girls who they see as "easy meat."  There is no religious problem for them attached to abusing these non-Muslim girls.  That's the way I read it.
                     
                     That's what the news stories print.  For example this detective refers to a "culture of silence" that allows Asian men to groom white girls.
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     
                     Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … z1Qlnzp05j
                     
                     Just as I said, political correctness is muffling  information and thwarting action.  Go argue with all the British press.

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                        John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        The media doesn't like to say right out that it is Muslim men who are grooming these girls because that would be a lie too far for even the most Islamaphobic scandal sheets in the UK
                        
                        The Daily Mail is one of the foremost scaremongers in print in the UK and not a serious newspaper.

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                           TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           So speaks the Socialist. So you know it must be true.

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                              John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              No, not speaking as a socialist, I'm speaking as a citizen of the UK, with perhaps a more intimate knowledge of the British press than you can boast.
                              
                              Lack of data indeed PDH, even the original OP states that there are far more white rapists than Asian.
                              What is their excuse?

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                                 prettydarkhorseposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                                 yes, I think not so much about race, but the mechanisms in rape cases lies on who has the power over the other person, ownership (when a parent think they own their children).

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                           psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Quite.
                           
                           The media doesn't have any data on this, and the data they have in ethnicity sucks.
                           
                           Guess they could just make it up, but they aren't meant to do that.
                           
                           Criminals do criminals things because they are criminal, not because of their faith.
                           
                           Faiths don't have to apologize every time an alleged follower of their particular holy book does criminal things.
                           think the adulterous, alcohol drinking rapist is doing what his Imam says in the first place?
                           
                           Does anyone think the Christian church owes me an apology because a Christian dude tried to molest me once in the public library?  I don't, he wasn't doing it because of his faith.  he was doing it because he was a sick pervert.  Same applies here.

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   psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

   The story which you copied without attribution is from the Daily Mail.  They kind of like to put a spin on things.
   
   The statistics refer to a certain time and place. A group the police need to target in the UK right now.
   
   In other places and times, other groups are implicated.
   
   Also "Ethnicity had only been identified in half the cases"
   
   As the most likely UK group not to have an ethnicity recorded is "white" (white is not considered "ethnic" in the British parlance) the data is probably a bit off.
   
   That said, if that is a population they are having trouble with in that location, that is the community to work with to solve it.

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   John Holdenposted 13 years ago

   Again, ignore the opening:
   
   "Peter Davies, director of the CEOP, warned that the data was not comprehensive enough to draw firm conclusions. He said: 'Focusing on this problem simply through the lens of ethnicity does not do it service.'"
   
   then carry on and do exactly the opposite.

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      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I am not focusing on it through, Ethnicity. I am focusing on it through, Religion. Big difference. Unless you are going to argue all muslims are Asain?
      
      And look at the common denominator of the studies majority of offenders... pretty simple, and though PC won't let him say it, it doesn't stop me from saying it.

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         psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         If you want to talk religion you need to find some different stats.  These rather rubbishy stats (I would never report conclusions based on 50% missing data) were based on record of ethnicity only.
         
         Unless the one gang is being used to describe all people.  In which case, how to explain the white guy who was also in this child rape gang?

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   Greg Sageposted 13 years ago

   What in the world is the purpose for posting this?
   
   If someone posted a thread about how Irishmen tend to be sheep-rapists, would it elicit genuine responses?
   
   What is the PURPOSE for posting this?
   
   Billions of things one could be focused on, yet this is the choice...
   
   
   Linking ethnicity to being a Rapist.
   
   Why?

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      Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Sensationalism no doubt
      
      Weird.
      
      The claim was once placed on all Catholic priests ,and once again ,one has to ask what is the point.
      
      If their was some point to resolve ,that would make it newsworthy.
      
      
      But as it stands ,just trashy reporting (IMO)

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   AnnCeeposted 13 years ago

   Afghan boy dancers sexually abused by former warlords
   
   http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/11/ … 8920071119
   
   
   It's an age old practice that has led to some of the boy dancers being turned into sex slaves by wealthy and powerful patrons, often former warlords, who dress the boys up as girls, shower them with gifts and keep them as "mistresses".
   
   Afghan police are battling to crackdown on the practice which has angered Islamic clerics who say those involved should be stoned for sodomy, forbidden under Islamic law.
   
   In a society where the sexes are strictly segregated, it is common for men to dance for other men at weddings in Afghanistan.
   
   But in northern Afghanistan, former warlords and mujahideen commanders have taken that a step further with competitions for their dancing boys.
   
   "Every boy tries to be the first. They are dressed in women's clothes, have bells on their feet and have artificial breasts," said Mohammad Yawar, a former mujahideen fighter against the Taliban and resident of the northern town of Pul-e Khumri.
   
   The practice, called "bacha bazi" -- literally "boy play" -- has a long history in northern Afghanistan, but sometimes it does not stop with just dancing.
   
   "I very much enjoy hugging a boy. His smell and fragrance kills me," said Yawar.
   
   The 38-year-old businessman said he recruited a 15-year-old boy three years ago to help him with his work.
   
   "I have had him for at least three years, since he was only 15. He was looking for a job and I gave him somewhere to stay," said Yawar, showing the boy's picture.
   
   "I don't have a wife. He is like my wife. I dress him in women's clothes and have him sleep beside me. I enjoy him and he is my everything," he said, kissing the photograph.

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      psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      So now we are just going to randomly post specific cases of non-white non-Christian child abusers to prove that only non-white non-Christian people abuse children or have cultures of rampant abuse?
      
      I'll play: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases
      
      Catholic priests raping children, why so many?

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   TMMasonposted 13 years ago

   "specific cases of non-white non-Christian child abusers to prove that only non-white non-Christian people abuse children or have cultures of rampant abuse?"
   
   I did not see that premise advanced at all.
   
   What I got was that there is a problem with Muslims and sex with young boys, just like the Catholics had, and that problem stems from their relegion and certain permissable practices within that religion, just like celibacy and Catholicism.
   
   So I don't know how you read all that other stuff into it.
   
   As far as Ethnicy, this occurrs in all races, cultures, and nationalities.... and also religions. To recognize that it is condoned in Isalmic Law, and its practice is widely accepted, is just an honest look at the problem without the PC blinders on.
   
   I agree though that more data is needed... but we know that it is accepted in Islam. unlike in the Catholic, Christian religions, which frown upon and condemn the practice.

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      psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I saw a subject line asking in general why Asians rape kids.
      
      This is not what the data showed.
      
      I saw people saying, based on this specific data set on ethnicity, that Muslims in general are more likely to rape children.
      
      This is not supported by the data.
      
      And if my interpretation of why a complete unrelated case was thrown into the discussion is in error, in what other way is it relevant?
      
      If it was to show an institutionalized form of abuse by (some) Muslims--I thought it relevant to show an institutionalized form of abuse amongst (some) Christians.
      
      To support the case that it is all about context.

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         TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         You mean why was the white guy there?
         
         Birds of a feather.
         
         And I am not arguing with you, Psyche... more data is needed.
         
         But too many religious and culturally unacceptable practices are being brought into western countries, and are not being confronted.
         
         That is all.

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            psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Quite.  And I doubt the Muslim rapists did it "because" they were Muslim any more than the other gang members did it "because" they were not. Or, indeed, the rapist priests did it "because" they were Catholic.
            
            They are all scum because of what they did. Any community harboring such scum has work to do.  But if you take, for example, the Muslim population in Fiji, I bet rates of child abuse there are pretty low.  It's about a wider culture.

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      John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Proof please. Constantly repeating something does not make it true.

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         TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         If I was to post the writings on Islamic law and sex with children I would banned for months...
         
         Are you willing to be banned with me for asking?
         
         And don't say just post a link... because that will get me banned like last time.

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         psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         If you look at the nation wide data on child sexual abuse convictions in the US you will need to take anti-PC blinders off to see the majority of perps are white. I am not really sure that it matters.
         
         When something like this happens in any community the guilty need to be locked up posthaste, as these guys were. Cops make good cops, not such good statisticians or epidemiologists sometimes.

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            John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            But white Muslims surely!

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               TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               Google it john, sex with children in islam,... then go to an islamic site, one which is preferably out of the middle east and in arabic, then translate the page and read. Al'Azar will have tracts written on the subject and you can read them.
               
               And that is not a denial of white men doing the same. Just an obsevation regarding numbers.

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                  John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  As I live in the UK and the OP was based in the UK I think Sharia as applied in England will do quite well thank you.

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                     TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     The UK doesn't have the right to author Sharia... that is the territory of the Arab Imams, Itjahadi, Jurists and Scholars of Islam. Saudi Arabia is the seat of Islam and the home and people of the prophet, and as such they retain authority over Islam and interpretation of Islaminc doctrine and Sharia.
                     
                     Pretty simple... as I said google it... Al'azar university.

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                        John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        But as you must know,Sharia is open to interpretation in different countries and different cultures. Sharia frowns on stoning as a punishment, some cultures read this as chucking loads of small stones at the victim, Sharia says that if somebody should be stoned let it be with a rock large enough to require two men to lift it.
                        
                        But that doesn't suit you does it, not vicious enough.
                        I'm surprised that you are so anti Sharia, you have so much in common with it.

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            TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            You also have to take into account the disperaty between population numbers, the numbers are way different in population size, and you need to look at percentages.
            
            Numbers are a tool of minipulation and can be twisted, staight count -Vs- percentage can be way deceptive.

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   dutchman1951posted 13 years ago

   I have been in Bannock many visits and in Sheri-Lanka, India and I can honestly say, the Governments do try to suppress this behavior, They do work with Police, courts and also Interpol, but by traditions, exclusive family law and culture there are some really sick puppies and cultural practices allowed to exist.  Very sad..  From a few things I have seen, I will always say, we have so much more in the USA.
   
   I will also say for the record, those Asian men I have worked with and lived beside, did indeed have principle, and morals. So some of the numbers appear suspect, as to those folks I was privilaged to meet.
   
   Not all Asian Men can be grouped this way. Or should be.
   
   Any man upholding child rape..?  deserves a death penalty.

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      Traqqerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree. We need to look at things in perspective. Maybe with time and/or revolutions or evolutions, things may change. Case in point, there was an awful lot of raping done by Thomas Jefferson and his friends before slavery was abolished in the US.

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    AnnCeeposted 13 years ago

    http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/02/04/ … y-clerics/

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Bad, tragic even, but not Sharia. The real evil is in the people who carried out the punishment in defiance of Sharia.

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          TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Sharia requires FOUR witnesses on the woman's behalf to prove rape, John. Or it is considered illegal sexual behaiour by the woman. And as such the punishment is death.

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             John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             No, four witnesses to adultery.

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    AnnCeeposted 13 years ago

    http://www.cfr.org/religion/islam-gover … aria/p8034
    
    
    " official " reluctance. . . 

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       It is called denial... they cannot accept that their friends are brutal barbaric 7th century misogynists. But watch out for those Christians!

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          John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          What, every single one of them brutal, barbaric 7th century misogynists!
          
          Ridiculous.

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       "There is significant debate over what the Quran sanctions and what practices were pulled from local customs and predate Islam."

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          TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          No there is not, not in the Islamic world, John. Only in the west is that questioned asked. And what the west asks is irrelavent. Period.

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             John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             What?  Are you saying it doesn't matter what pre-dates Islam, they can just take the rap for it anyway?

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                AnnCeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Why the dhimmitude, John.   You like what's happening to your fair country?

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                   John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                   What, you mean the tory party driving us all into the ground? Not a lot.
                   
                   If this was some comment on Muslims, nothing much is happening except there are a few less moaners. We really aren't being taken over and seriously, the tory government causes me real concern, the Muslims, no concern, except where they are in the government.

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                      TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                      All the way to the ovens. Just like your boy Neville Chamberlain, he knew what he was talking about also. All the way to the ovens.

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                         John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                         2.7% of the UK population claim Muslim as their religion. I only know a very small percentage of that 2.7% but notone I know shows me any malice whatsoever.
                         
                         I think even if they did want to gas us all they would have a job on their hands as that number will include children, women and old people.

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    S Leretsehposted 13 years ago

    "Half of the 2,379 offenders identified in the research revealed today by the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre gave their ethnicity, with 26 per cent of those being Asian and 38 per cent white."
    
    I do NOT believe these figures. Historically, Asians don't even register on the rape screen here in the US. The Chinese, for example, their population in the US in 1978 was apprx. the size of todays UK Asian population. There were approx. 28k forcible rapes in the US in 1978:
    --white 48% (86% of pop.)
    --Black 48%(11% of pop.)
    --All Others 3% (3% of US pop.)
    
    And this report is trying to attribute 26% of child rapes to asians - who are about 1.6% of th UK population. Nonsense.  There's no history of this kind of behavior from this racial group --and particularly being way over represented in this category.
    
    In the US, there's only ONE racial group that has in every contiguous year since 1956 (US gov't Statistical Abstracts) registered way, way beyond their population count in the crime category of RAPE --same group that is 2% of UK population ... and represents almost 20% of its prison population

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       S Leretseh, we are generally at loggerheads over most things therefore I must doubly thank you for this injection of good sense and reality.
       
       Thank you.

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    TMMasonposted 13 years ago

    Read it and source away.
    
    Mohhummed is the example of the "perfect man" and as such all his actions and words are seen as lawful. Except in very few cases which are directly pointed out and stipulated by allah as such in the qu'ran, all the other behavious and sayings of that man are the foundation for Islamic Sharia, along with the qu'ran and the words of allah, as set and determined by the Itjahadi through Al'Fiqh
    
    
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm
    
    And that is not to say there are not Muslim men who see it as a disgusting act and would never embrace it. But on the whole it is accepted within the ummah, and ijma on this subject has been reched by the Ulema and determined long ago.

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    What is the age of consent in the Asian countries

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       Eaglekiwiposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       What does consent have to do with it?

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          CMHypnoposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Also this happened in the UK where the age of consent is 16 for all UK citizens and residents

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             psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Consent got brought in by people suggesting different customs about age of consent or marriage somehow relate to how acceptable it is to rape a teenager.
             
             I disagree.
             
             In the US is is totally acceptable in most states to marry a 16 year old (in some cases even a thirteen year old) with parental consent. That doesn't mean the US culture condones drugging and raping a 16-year-old, or that people who do this do so "because" they are American.
             
             Faulty logic.

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    prettydarkhorseposted 13 years ago

    lack of data...

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    TMMasonposted 13 years ago

    They do when that religion condones it...
    
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/childbrides.htm
    
    denial does not change the fact that Islam condones and propagates this practice. I am not saying that was the spur for those involved in this study, though most have Muslim names and that is a pretty good hint, but for a religion to condone this act is unacceptable and denying that is absurd.

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       You are confusing marriage with rape.

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    psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

    Nationality and culture differs from faith.
    Age of marriage differs from age of consent.
    Consensual sex differs from rape and from statutory rape.
    
    Even if I fully accept that all Muslims thing marring a teenager is oakay (and, actually, under US law it you can marry a 13 or 15 years old depending on State) I don;t see that as an explanation of why Muslims would rape more than other groups. 
    
    And, can we please remember, at no point did anyone ever substantiate that this is the case.
    
    Find me a study where matched Muslim and non-Muslim groups within the same culture over a reasonable period of time show a difference of rates of child sexual abuse and I would understand why the hell we are even having this conversation.
    
    p.s. the even if you could the consequential fallacy would apply.
    
    There was one ring of child raping perverts, quite a few of them were Pakistanis but clearly not actively practicing observant Muslims.  That is all we know.

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I have already agreed the data was lacking, and I have said it may not be anything to do with Islam in this case. Read my earlier posts.
       
       That doesn't change the fact it is allowed under Islamic law.
       
       And I do not believe any State in the Union does marriage under the age of 16 or 15 anymore... but I am not sure. And America damn sure doesn't allow the marraige of 6 to 9 year old girls to grown men, which Islam does and many Muslims embrace.

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    psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

    It also only just struck me that some people in this discussion may not be aware that the Koran absolutely forbids both rape and adultery.  Hence my confusion as to how anyone could think Islam per se would somehow condone a married man raping anyone, ever.

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Go to the links I have posted and read the Quiyas, "anological reasoning", on the matter. There are many rulings on this matter and it is well settled Islamic law.
       
       Rape in Islam can only be proven if the woman raped has four, 4, witnesses to testify to her being raped. And who needs adultery when you can have 4 or more wives Psyche?
       
       And are you a moderator? Is there a list of who the Moderators are?

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          psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          The core of a faith is its holy book.  The holy book of Islam is the Koran.  The Koran says not to rape or fornicate. So the screwed-up-ness of many nations and cultures aside, a person who rapes or fornicates is not an observant Muslim.
          
          No I am not a moderator.  I have no idea who is a moderator as we don't exactly see much of them until someone gets sent to the corn field.

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             TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Yes, the core of the faith is the qu'ran and that is where all Islamic law is derived from. Many verses in the qu'ran abbrogate previous verses though, Psyche.
             
             Islamic Sharia, LAW, is derived from the Qu'ran, Hadith and Sunnah, it is reasoned, "Quiyas", from those origins by the Itjahadi, through the act of Itjahad, from which quiyas is applied and ijma is reached and a "Hukm Shari" is detemined, a law...
             
             So yes it does come from the qu'ran, Psyche. But knowing which verses of the qu'ran abbrogate which is the trick.
             
             I myself have a compiled list of the chronological order of the verses and the revalations as confirmed by the haddith and sunnah. Most people have no clue that the qu'ran is not in the proper chronological order, or that certain verses abbrogate others.
             
             -Chronologically, divides the Qu'ran into the first period in Mecca,... 96, 74, 111, 106, 108, 104, 107, 102,105, 92, 90, 94, 93, 97, 86, 91, 80, 68, 87, 95 103, 85, 73, 101, 99, 82, 81, 53, 84, 100, 79, 77, 78, 88, 89, 75, 83, 69, 51, 52,56,70, 55, 112, 109, 113, 114, 1.
             
             The Middle Period In Mecca,... 54, 37, 71, 76, 44, 50, 20, 26, 15, 19, 8, 36, 43, 72, 67, 23, 21, 25, 17, 27, 18.
             
             The Late Period in Mecca,... 32, 41, 45, 16, 30, 11, 14, 12, 40, 28, 39, 29, 31, 42, 10, 34, 35, 7, 46, 6, 13.
             
             And in Al'Madina2, 98, 64, 62, 8, 47, 3, 61, 57, 4, 65, 59, 33, 63, 24, 58, 22, 48, 68, 60, 110, 49, 9, 5.
             
             
             The later verses abbrogate the earlier, this abbrogation can be general or specific, temporary or permanent.
             
             But I digress, Psyche... the laws in question we are discussing are derived straight from the hadith and the words of allah. Allah said mohhamud was the perfect example of Man in the qu'ran... so by extension his actions are perfect and to be aspired to by all Muslim men.
             
             Mohhammud married his favorite wife at the age of -six, 6-, and consumated that marraige when she was -nine, 9-... that set the example for all Muslim men, as mohhammud himself was the perfect example of man in his actions and relationship to allah.
             
             SO you see...
             
             1- mohhamud approved of this perversion through his own actions and as such that action became permissible and is law.
             
             2- Any woman raped in Islam... -"Islam, not the culture, because the ummah, the Islamic commmunity is one."-, Islamic law states that 4 witnesses are needed by any woman to prove rape... and that law is for the whole ummah. And another I find barbaric.
             
             3- to say they are not observant Muslims if they rape is to totally dis-regard that a woman married to a man in Islam, regardless of her age 6 or 9 or 100-, is not allowed to refuse sex if her husband wants it, not matter when or where. Another piece of Islamic law... would you like sources to verify that from? Let me know. (And yes I hate that law also, I find it degrading to women, as I find most Islamic law.)
             
             4- Men in Islam can and do have affairs outside of their marraige all the time. If the woman they are having the affair with complains to anyone she is charged with rape, as she neeeds four witnesses, or it is considered unlawful sex, or adultery on her part, and she is stoned to death. So who is she going to tell?
             
             So your "rape is not condoned" argument has alot of flaws in its actual practice. As what woman do you know that can produce 4 witnesses to testify about her rape, especially in the ummah, Islamic community. And no woman- 6 or 9 or 80- can refuse the husbands desire for sex at any time. In the western world one can be charged for raping his wife... not in the Islamic world.
             
             You cannot apply western standards and concepts to Islamic law. It just doesn't belong, and is not the way it is. And it is all good to say the qu'ran doesn't condone this or that... but untill you actually read the qu'ran and hadith and know the chronological order of the surahs, then you have no idea what is valid and what is not.
             
             And these are not Cultural laws, they are Islamic Shari'a, they apply to the entire Ummah, Islamic community world-wide.
             
             I have tried to keep this answer short, as to go in depth would take a long time and a lot of space. Anything you do not understand, or which is unclear, or have a question regarding, ask. But I am not making this up as I go, Psyche. This is Islamic law and what is permitted under it.
             
             And no I am not saying all Muslim men accept this and act this way. But I will tell you they do not bother those who do, because they are not breaking any laws of importance. And they would most likely be beaten for opposiing the law as it stands, for it would be an affront to Mohhamud to question his actions or infer they were wrong.

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                John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                But TM, it is only recently that in our culture a woman has been allowed the freedom to refuse sex to her husband, only recently that we've recognised marital rape, and I mean recently, not 10 years ago, nor even 50 but more like 20 years ago.
                
                And though you rightly say that we can not apply western standards and concepts to Islam, you repeatedly do exactly that. Though I don't condone child brides, their culture does and taking a child bride, by their culture is not rape.
                
                And nowhere is sex with a male child condoned although you state that it is, in fact homosexuality is punishable by death!

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          John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          All the links you post refer to marriage, you and I might not think too much of the idea of marrying a seven year old but it ain't rape and it certainly isn't wanton random rape.
          Not one link refers to boys, homosexuality is an offence in Islam.

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    psycheskinnerposted 13 years ago

    Where the laws come from is kind of irrelevant if you live by the holy book and not the laws.  Which most Muslims, and most Christians, do.
    
    The only difference is that with Christianity the laws that everyone ignores (about who to stone and why) are actually within the holy book, with Islam they are not.

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       Evolution Guyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Is that so? Most Christians have lived by the book ? LOLOLOLOLOLO
       
       Really? Why 2,000 years of killing then? Konfuuzeed innit.

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          psycheskinnerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          That being my point.  The typical follower of any major religion does not follow it as a body of law.
          
          Islam and Christianity being completely equivalent on this matter when comparing like to like (e.g. people in the same geographical area).
          
          Both Christians and Muslims are prohibited from rape. Most ethical people of any type, likewise.  Most don't rape, same do.  No difference there.

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       That is just BS Psche. You cannot dismiss 1400+ years of Islamic law because you choose to ignnore the reality of Islam.
       
       No muslim interprets the Qu'ran for themselves, it is unlawful as per the prophet's own words and the Qu'ran. Only the Itjahadi, Imams and jurists have that authority, as per the qu'ran and allah.
       
       So in follwing those laws they are following the qu'ran.
       
       Stop please with the denial.
       
       Go read the Qu'ran, Sunnah, and Hadith, and then speak on it. Not just make assertions based on what you think it says and how you think they follow what aspsects and books.

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    I have been reading more on this topic and TMMason may have a valid point about what is and what is not allowed within certain traditions

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       It depends on what you read.

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    I guess there is a view no matter what way you look, any recommendations on this topic

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I would say read the Qu'ran and Hadith, they are online, and then look at the site I linked "Answering Islam.ORG", they supply all source materials, sunnah, Hadith and Qu'ranic, TIO. Many of the designers and writers on the site are ex Muslims who fled that faith as soon as it was safe to do so.
       
       And they will cite every source so you can go eximine it yourself. It is a lot of reading... but you will find the truth.
       
       hope that helps.
       
       http://www.answering-islam.org/

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    Do all religions and cultures tolerate a certain amount of child abuse

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       It would seem that child abuse is endemic in the Catholic church, but a little digging reveals an amount of abuse in the protestant church too. I'd assume that it is tolerated in most main stream religions.
       
       As for cultures, it's harder to say, there's nothing to really focus on.
       Going fro living in the UK, I think there is more acceptance than a quick evaluation would suggest. Look at the prurient interest shown by the press when any story involves children and look at the number of people who demand the right to beat their children! OK, that isn't necessarily sexual abuse but . . .

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    TMMasonposted 13 years ago

    Look at the way children are sexualized all over the TV and Modeling. It is pathetic that we, America and the Western world, have no morals anynmore. But it our own faults to have allowed it take place. the Liberal Progressive agenda has destroyed this country.
    
    And I condemn all religions who allow this, and all societies, but that doesn't mean when it is blatently accepted and practiced in one religion or culture, while the rest suffer abherations of this act, that it should be ignored! It mus be addressed honestly.

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       John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       With the emphasis on honestly.
       No distracting finger pointing, like I used to work in advertising and there were not a lot of lefties or liberal progressives in the trade.

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          TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Thats cause as soon as the way is opened any and most all would take advantage of it. It is human nature, self control and responsibility be damned.
          
          But I guess I can agree with your point without pointing fingers.

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             John Holdenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

             Good grief! Agreement, still, I suppose it had to happen one day

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    What is the rate of ethnic rape in the USA? Are Asians more likely to rape children than whites?

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       I am ot sure TIO... I have been working my way through the FBI statistics site...
       
       http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cr … ble-4/view
       
       But I have not seen anything broke down specifically by race for rape yet.
       
       http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/ucr
       
       You have somewhere else maybe I should look?

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    TMMASON, searching for stats myself,plenty of stats for UK

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       TMMasonposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       Very open admin and Govt. we have eh?
       
       I have learned in the past so many years that you have to dig through google lists for the right and good information. Mostly PR and spin on the top 100 regardless the issue searched for.

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    Citizen KAhNeposted 13 years ago

    Can't you think of anything else to write about? Ralph is right.

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       Ralph Deedsposted 13 years agoin reply to this

       irishobserver's comments and hubs are misandrist.

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    Are Asian men mor or less likely to abuse children statistically, is this just more anti-Muslim propaganda?

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    Lady_Eposted 13 years ago

    Sorry, I don't agree with you. They are just the ones that got caught. It's sick men of various nationalities who abuse these innocent kids.

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    Any good source for establishing if Asian men/women are more prone to raping children than whites or other ethnics

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    theirishobserver.posted 13 years ago

    Lady-e, you will find that women and men equally abuse children, women are less likely to be prosecuted as their deviance is often called 'mental' illness where as the actions of men are treated as criminal

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