3 things that are stopping the poor from working

1. 60

   Imani Faithposted 12 years ago

   Child support thats not about the child, and takes over half of what a person is making pluse jail
   Not being able to drive because of a unfair systems with DMV

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      MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      So, basically... you got pissed off because they were taking your money for child support, stopped working to avoid it, and they took your driver's licence...
      
      Yeah, no sympathy.
      
      Solution: Get a job, pay your child support, get your license back.  And in the future, if you don't want to pay more support... maybe you should keep that thing covered.

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      HattieMattieMaeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I would say that childcare is one reason, but think the lack of jobs and training in some states, as well as being educated. Not being able to get a job that pays enough to be off the welfare system. It is a vicious circle for most. I would say that and federal offense on your record you are basically screwed. Think people have to decide whether they want to use drugs, and alcohol, or other forms of addiction. Those are choices that my contribute to poverty, but not the main reasons why.

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2. 71

   Cagsilposted 12 years ago

   I will agree with you on the child support. It should be reasonable.
   
   I will also agree with you on those who go to Jail. However, I'm not sure there's a way in which both side could compromise on and be beneficial to both. A record will prevent people from getting a job. And, almost all criminals cannot own or have a gun license, which would prevent them from doing other jobs.
   
   However, I would need you elaborate on the DMV? As far as I know, all the rules and guidelines in place are fair. So, what exactly do you mean?

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      TamCorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      What he probably means by this is that a parent's driver's license can be taken away in some states if they fall behind in their child support payments.  I know that, here in Ohio, that's the law.
      
      I don't agree with it.  My ex fell behind numerous times, and never did catch up, but I never would've wanted his license taken away--how could he get to work and back if he couldn't drive?  It's ridiculous.
      
      Of course, in larger cities, there are other options, but in rural areas, we pretty much have to depend on cars to get to work and back.

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      1. 71

         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Well, that's completely foolish and hinders the person who has to pay child support. So, it's unproductive laws like that which is hurting even more on top of other things.

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   2. 64

      Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Cagsil, I can tell you that in Massachusetts, alone, the RMV has laws/programs in place (or that aren't) that are not fair.  It doesn't help that court system is a joke either.
      
      When I left my marriage (no choice) the court just left me without any place to live and without any way to earn an income.  Because a few relatives who questioned the "sanity" of my needing to leave a situation that I'd kept to myself (out of not wanting anyone to think less of a stressed out spouse), the whole divorce picture was muddied, contaminated, and complicated.  By being left to live in my car but have my children with me every day after school and until 6, as well as on every weekend from Friday afternoon until Sunday evening; I had no choice but to drive a car that needed an inspection sticker.  I had no money to get the tail light fixed and pay for the sticker; and even though my husband could easily have afforded the $16 light and fee for the tickets I'd eventually gotten (also, even though the lawyer could have acted on my behalf at the Registry or within the courts), there wasn't any help.  I had a court order that ordered me to have the children out in the car each day and had to choose between complying with a court order or with laws that would have had me park the car.  So, OK - unfair courts/lawyers.
      
      Where the Registry comes in is that there are apparently no provisions/laws that require them to adequately tell a person his options (or explain what to do about lack of them) in such a situation.  The license-free person can't always get to Boston or a train from some locations, for example.  Also, by the time, years later, when I had hearing (after hearing on the radio that there's such a thing as a Cinderella license that lets drunk drivers go to work), I was told "there's nothing in place for a person in your situation".
      
      As far as reasons a person can't work, those reasons are numerous and often include things related to things like these:  The person with damaged credit after a divorce may have trouble getting work.  The person over a "certain age" (like 40 in some cases) may have trouble finding work.  God knows what happens when the court files have pure lies in them - so that's another issue with something like background checks.  The person who is normally and properly bonded with children but separate from them can go through an overwhelming grief and/or anger/horror phase (not to mention devote so much energy to winning a custody case he's stressed to the point of not being able to concentrate on some things.  Back when I had my kids each day, I'd spend the mornings working on the legal situation and finding ways to get showers, eat, deal with things like writing to creditors, lawyers, etc. 
      
      I actually looked into welfare programs, but it turned out there's no financial help (or housing apparently) for mothers who have fled their homes WITH their children but been "accused" of being "crazy" (at least enough to make those who did accusing dig in their heels and see "crazy" in anything the person did or said after making the initial mistake). 
      
      As someone who had lots of background and work experience (in more than one area) I didn't need what was available as far as their lousy job-training went.  One welfare worker actually said to me, "Well, even if you don't need job training, maybe you'd like some."  You know what the training she had in mind was?????   "Keyboarding"!!!!!!       ("Gee, thanks."  )  The other thing is that there's the assumption that a person who has no income must be ignorant, have a low IQ, and/or be unable to manage money.  Welfare programs don't even recognize that there's such a thing as people who don't have money (through no fault of their own) but who are otherwise well trained, educated, skilled and/or perfectly intelligent and hard-working.
      
      While I've never lived in "the generational welfare thing", I've known a few young women who grew up in it and who got themselves out.  I've seen, though, some of the challenges that people living on that kind of money and in the kinds of neighborhoods where a lot of them live; and I know it's really easy for anyone (including me) to sit in a middle-class suburban home and have no clue about some of the mental, financial, family, and external challenges a lot of those people have to live with.  I'm convinced, too, that a lot of them could overcome even all those challenges if the welfare programs were designed in a way that is as oppressive and destructive to individuals and families as they now are.
      
      In the meantime, it was 1993 when I couldn't renew my driver's license, and I still don't have it to this day (after decades of never having even a minor violation or accident, and after living life barely ever touching alcohol)..  Why I don't have it to this day is a long story that I won't go into here, but believe me it is nothing that has to do with anything I've done or not done in terms of trying to get it back.  I also won't go into the story of how things went on once my ex-husband (a well educated professional) was laid off when "everyone else" was being laid off and then had a tree fall on his car.  Those are points/stories for another time/place.

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      1. 71

         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         I've addressed much of your post in other posts I've already made.

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            Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I know.   I started out with the license thing, and then kind of started addressing the "overall picture" of all the the posts on here.     Oops.    The overall lack of understanding a lot of people have, though, is one of those "button-pushers" for me (not for me, because I can deal with my own situation, but for a lot of other people that I know have been in similar situations and weren't as skilled/able to deal with it effectively). 
            
            I'm not alone in what happened with me, so there's people like that.  Then, too, I've known plenty of people who just got laid off from work, ended up in serious financial trouble, and either had to remain without income or feel compelled to accept some kind of assistance because they had kids to feed.  Then, too, anyone who has really known any kids who have started out in one of those "generational welfare families" has seen the kind of stuff their parents and/or they have to overcome (which would be more than a lot of people could/would be able to overcome, no matter how smart, hard-working, or otherwise "stellar" they were).
            
            Yes, there are the drug users and alcoholics on welfare (but they're are a lot of them not on welfare too).  Either way, it's a whole separate "branch" of welfare recipients and something that should be addressed as a separate type of problem than "general welfare" or "general low-/no- income situations that have nothing whatsoever to do with drugs or alcohol.
            
            A whole lot of people would like nothing better than to be able to work and stay away from welfare programs.  The problem is that welfare programs either expect someone to go hook, line, and sinker into the way they do things and think; or else there's no help.  For example, I walked into a welfare office and said, "I don't want or need anything but either a lawyer who will represent me on at least this driver's license thing, or else $600 to take care of the fees that happened as a result of the tickets (and penalties).  There was no such help available, but I was offered that job training, food stamps, medical insurance, etc. etc. that I didn't want or need.  Heck - I was even offered "assistance" with finding work where the special needs people work and have a van that gets them back and forth to their jobs.  Honestly!  All the woman at the welfare place had to do was look a letter or two that I'd typed myself and handed to her to see that a) I could type, b) I could string together words, and c) one letter had a resume attached to it that showed I was capable of more than "special work".  (And, nice as it may be that there's such work for special needs people; I"m sorry - nobody without special needs and with training/education/experience is going to want to ride a van to a minimum-wage job with special needs folks.
            
            Welfare programs aren't based on the reality that there are people whose only problem is a temporary need for cash in order to be able to find themselves some work (and get to it).  Instead, they don't even factor in that reality and instead are aimed at the assumption that anyone who even asks about what assistance there may be is assumed to be stupid, lazy, unable to manage money, or otherwise in need of the "expertise" of often mediocre, commons-sense-lacking, state employees who, themselves, are sometimes pulled from earlier welfare roles and trained to process paperwork.

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3. 60

   Evan G Rogersposted 12 years ago

   I would argue that you need to look at why poor families are more prone to breaking up and thus needing Child support measures to be put in place.
   
   There are numerous laws on the books (mostly welfare laws) that encourage the poor to divorce.
   
   I've heard stories of people intentionally trying to have their child be born with handicaps so they can get even more welfare money (the stories come from Northern Columbus near the poor Somalian communities).
   
   Welfare has some very damning consequences.

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      Stacie Lposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      a child born with a handicap gets SSI as well.
      many drug users on welfare have handicapped children..
      it's a drain on the system that was supposed to provide temporary help.
      welfare needs a complete overhaul; the generational welfare families have to have some serious job training and change in attitude..with the threat of being cut off financially some may become motivated

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         Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Motivate through fear?

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            Nick Lucasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, Fear and a boot in the A$$

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Figures you would motivate people through fear. Talk about limited.

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                  Nick Lucasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  well tell me this what motivates you to drive the speed limit? is it fear of getting a ticket?

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                     Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     And, what makes you think I drive the speed limit?

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            TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            If telling them they need to learn to fend for themselves because this is not a life-long ride, nor generational, is a fear tactic, then fine.

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               Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               There's a better method to take. Creating negativity isn't always productive.

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                  TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Perpetuating the need to live off the Govt for you and your children's lives, and then for generations more, is not productive.

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                     Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     TMM, I'm not disputing that and nothing in anything I said in this entire thread implies that. So, you've no ground to say that to me. Get real.

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                        TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                        So do not tell them this is not a free ride for life or generations... and then just continue to give them it for their lives and generations to come.
                        
                        Great logic.

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                           Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           A stupid reply. Again, read the words in front of you. Ignorance is never justified.
                           
                           Your reply to me again is making something out of nothing. You talk as if I said it was okay. And, NOWHERE in any of my posts do I imply it's okay.
                           
                           Get real. Try learning some sort of comprehension would you.

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                           1. 59

                              TMMasonposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              You are the one who thinks that telling people welfare is not a life-long assistance program and will not support generations of your off-spring... is a fear tactic.
                              
                              I am just wondering how you would let them know that things are going to change and they will not be able to count on being welfare the rest of their lives, and their off-springs, for generations?
                              
                              How would you reeform the system without telling that basic truth to anyone?
                              
                              Of course America will never have entitlement reform with a white president... he would be called a racist and crucified. No, that is going to require a President a color to acomplish unfortunately.

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                           2. 60

                              Repairguy47posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              I'm sure he just lacks understanding, Ay yi yi.

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            2. 83

               gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               +1,000,000,000,000,000.

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            3. 83

               gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               AMEN.

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      2. 83

         gmwilliamsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Welfare as we know need to be reduced at least 50%.  Welfare is generational in the U.S.  People need to make intelligent choices in their lives, to take responsibility, and to be accountable in their lives.  People need to think very carefully before becoming parents.  If one cannot afford to have children, THEN DON'T have them.  Many poor people reproduce willy nilly and ad infinitum, not being concerned about their actions upon their children and on the general society.

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      Lisa HWposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I'm not sure they're more prone to breaking.  I just think it causes more financial devastation to all involved when they do.  My family was quite comfortable when we broke up, and the court system swooped in and managed to create poverty for me in spite of the fact that I'd done all kinds of things to assure that I'd never find myself in poverty or anything close to it.
      
      All it takes is a few lies in court, a few bad laws, and a few screw-ups that could make "court people" people (or others who presented the lies/bad information) look bad - and there you have it.  Immediate poverty in spite of all your life's worth of guarding against it.

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4. 84

   rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

   I would think that there already is some sort of job training required for those affected families. If there's no motivation, it will never change, except for those individuals who take their own initiative and make a better life for themselves.
   
   Cags, why roll your eyes over those who often take advantage of the system? Why continue to hand out to those who won't take initiative? I can understand helping those who are truly in need, but not for generations if all they're doing is producing more babies for additional income.

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      TamCorposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with this 100%.  Too many women are having babies that they cannot take care of, just to stay on public assistance.  Then THEIR children learn how to do it, and the cycle is repeated.  It's way out of hand.

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Try reading my statement again. This time read the words and not your interpretation of what you thought I said. I wasn't rolling my eyes at what you're implying. I rolled my eyes, based on motivating other through the use of fear. There are already enough people living in fear and many are crippled by it, because they lack understanding how to beat it.
      
      I understand what you're saying about those who take advantage of specific system, however, if it wasn't for the dumbing down of society, then they wouldn't have to step to such tactics. So much for equality huh?
      How about addressing the underlying issue WHY they won't take initiative? Wouldn't that be better?
      Understood. But, it shouldn't be handled by attempting to use fear as a motivator.

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         Stacie Lposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         what do you propose...I've worked with children and families on the system for many years and few were motivated until the state of NY was about to cut them off unless they entered job training program.Many were upset at first but the follow up interviews showed that a great deal of former welfare recipients need that that push and were now feeling better as a productive contributing member of society.
         they didn't have to depend on anyone else.

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            Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            That's the problem, it's the original implementation of the program from the beginning, which was faulty.
            
            The motivation shouldn't be fear, but should be about self-esteem and improvement upon one's own life.
            I'm not doubting that. My point is that these people should be educated in a better manner than in the past and it's the dumbing down of society of the last several generations, which brought about all the welfare mentality.

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               Nick Lucasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               so under this theory we just need to educate terrorist to?  Basically you are saying all people have good intentions they just dont know or arent smart enough

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                  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Education of terrorists is going to happen anyways. So get real.
                  Yes, I prefer to look at people as being good, which apparently you're not willing to do. Many people are ignorant with regards of many things. Thus, they either don't know or not properly educated.

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      Nick Lucasposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Rebek- Very well said!!!!

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      gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      EXACTLY....

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   wychicposted 12 years ago

   I agree that something needs to be done about how child support is calculated. I make roughly $15,000 a year before taxes. Now my husband is unemployed, and I am the sole caretaker for the family. And I'm still expected to pay 25% of my pre-tax income to someone who makes almost $40,000 a year, and I can barely cover my bills before taxes or child support. The law doesn't care -- as far as they're concerned, I'm a deadbeat, and reasons don't matter. Thankfully the caseworker for child support enforcement has been understanding of the situation -- they started pushing for collection when I was 9 months pregnant and my husband had just gotten suspended from his job. I won't even get into the fact that my ex pays less in taxes than I do too...yes, it's not just irresponsible people who don't want their kids who don't pay child support. I love my son, and fought as hard as my finances allowed for him, but the ol' boy's network...ahem, sorry, the local judicial system...didn't care that he was the one who was unfaithful in the relationship, and didn't care that he would be working all the time and would barely get to see our son anyway, and didn't care that I'd raised him every day of his life at that point. They figured it'd be better to hand off that responsibility to my ex's pregnant 19-year-old girlfriend.
   
   I also agree that it is exceedingly disheartening for people who receive any kind of assistance, that if they make an extra dollar working then they're docked a dollar of assistance. Can't they dock .75 of assistance for every extra dollar of income? You know, actually give people half a chance to get out of the hole? Or would that be too empowering to people who are really trying? That said, I disagree with the welfare system as it stands in most states anyway -- I think every state should go to "workfare." Let everyone have an income to support themselves and their families, but make sure that everyone who is capable of doing any job at all actually EARNS it.

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6. 84

   rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

   cags, I see it more as motivation with the incentive of being self-reliant and being able to break the cycle. Plenty of people have successfully broken the cycle. When people don't care about being responsible, and know they can continue to live off welfare, and aren't being productive citizens, they need a realistic motivation. Welfare should not be for generations.
   There should be a cut off. There are already programs available for those in need to receive job training and education. Their children have access to free early childhood education, free meals as they go through the school system. There are opportunities for the parent[s], but many don't take them.
   
   How many people wake up every morning and go to work in order to provide for their families because they love work?  Work is part of life. If we want to be productive human beings and have food and shelter, we work. I call it reality, not fear. I think in this regard, we can learn a lot from the ant kingdom.

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Then change the mentality by using positive motivation, not negative.
      Yes, they probably did, but HOW? By using a positive mentality.
      Agreed. A realistic motivation? Positive, not negative.
      Correct, it shouldn't.
      Yes, there should be.
      Correct again, but many are ignorant about them.
      Agreed, there's plenty things like this. However, the school system is the problem. IT needs to be fixed.
      There are opportunities many don't see either. Therefore, cannot take them.
      Very few compared to the number of people who work everyday and cannot stand their job.
      I'll agree partially. Working a job should be only temporary, until business ownership is made possible. Thus, more people learn to understand wealth creation...nevermind just struggling to get by.
      Not disputing that.
      And, I can understand that. It's the mentality of motivating by fear that I don't agree with.

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   rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

   What I said was, work is part of life. It doesn't matter whether it's a job or your own business, work is part of life. If one has his own business, he still wakes up and takes care of his business, assets, etc. Not everyone is going to be able to have his own business, and there's nothing wrong with that. Businesses can't survive without employees.
   
   Those who break the generational welfare cycle very often were motivated by fear, the fear of remaining in a desperate cycle of poverty. So they make up their mind to do what it takes. Although I believe a positive mentality is important, it's not necessarily what guarantees success, it's doing what is required to bring about the desired outcome. 
   
   

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      Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Businesses will always have employees. There's not a doubt about that.
      Really, and you can prove that? I would think it's about one motivating themselves to improve their life, not from fear, but because they want more from life.

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      gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      +++++++++

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8. 84

   rebekahELLEposted 12 years ago

   Not from any statistics, but from stories and accounts of people who broke the cycle and have told their story. I actually think there are harmful stereotypes about those receiving welfare. It can't be easy to rise up and break out of the generational cycle, and our welfare system needs a comprehensive look at what can realistically be done to help those in need. All I'm saying is reality can be a great motivator, and in some situations is the necessary motivation for survival.

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