Political Quiz

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JaxsonRaineposted 12 years ago
I have a hypothetical situation. Would you say this was a good situation or a bad situation?

Someone takes over a company with borrowed money. This company was heading for bankruptcy, and everyone would have lost their jobs if this person didn't step in. This person cut jobs and consolidate operations. This person cut wages to the remaining workers. The company starts turning a profit.

Should the person that took over the company be praised or criticized?
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  homdiggityposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  i think its pretty good if they save the company
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  Josakposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Someone takes over a company that has been running for 105 years and is till turning a small profit, the man then comes in loads the business with debts, cuts corners and sells of vital parts of the business, when the business goes bankrupt and thousands lose their jobs he walks away with a profit in the tens of millions, he then refuses to pay the workers their pensions and health insurance as covered forcing the federal government to step in at taxpayer expense to save the ex employees. Should that person be praised or criticized?
  
  Meet GST steel.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you talking about the GSI plant BAIN purchased in 1993? That plant was already set to close. Bain saved it from being closed in 1993.
  
  Again, I've gone over this company, but you haven't addressed the points I've made about it.
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Cagsilposted 12 years ago
Neither.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you don't think Romney's work at Bain was good or bad?
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is what neither means doesn't it?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Generally speaking, yes.
  
  Do you hold the same view of the auto bailout?
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devjeetposted 12 years ago
Obviously such person should be praised because he/she turned that company in profit. Some times you have to be rude to achieve the best.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you devjeet. I agree, it's better to save part of a company than lose it all.
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JaxsonRaineposted 12 years ago
I would really love to hear from LMC, MightyMom, and Ralph, among others
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure you would considering I figure this post has something to do with Romney the idiot.
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  Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Cags,
  Ya think???
  I think Lady_Love has been reincarnated in the form of JaxsonRaine.
  There's something doggedly familiar about the relentness propaganda posting.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mighty Mom, always good to see you.
  
  And, you could be right about "Lady_Love".
  
  But, I rather not assume it to be true. However, it could be a possibility.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't know who Lady_Love is, but it's definitely not me.
  
  It's funny, people say I'm spreading propaganda, but refuse to address the factual information that I present.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can't answer my question without either
  
  1 - Criticizing Romney and Obama
  2 - Praising Romney and Obama
  
  So you resort to off-topic gossip.
  
  You then try to derail my thread? This has nothing to do with Koch.
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  Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is there any topic you won't willfully turn to Romney propaganda?
  This thread is about the Koch Brothers.
  They don't need your defense.
  Unless, of course, you are on their payroll and not directly on the "presumed GOP candidate's."
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  homdiggityposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  what does this thread have to do with koch brothers?
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  Mighty Momposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Everything.
  If it promotes altruistic capitalism it's funded by the Koch Brothers.
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  homdiggityposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  so you think the op is being paid for posting this?
  
  why dont you answer the question, is it good to save a company or not?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you get confused and think this was your Koch thread?
  
  It's not propaganda. If you criticize Romney for what he did at Bain, you have to criticize Obama for the auto bailout.
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lovemychrisposted 12 years ago
Obama didn't even cross my mind!

I mean--how much did Obama make off with? What was his take?

Bain came in to cut and skim.

Obama came in to save.

Apples and oranges, as your man says.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why does it matter if Romney made money? If he used borrowed money to take over a company, consolidated, and turned it into a profitable company, the net effect is the same. A company(read:jobs) was saved.
  
  And both GM and Chrysler filed for bankruptcy.
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  lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  His reason for doing it was to make money...not altruistic or caring...Money Grubbing.
  
  It matters to me, I don't want that dude as my president.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, you don't like capitalism?
  
  Is it bad for somebody to invent, say, an iPhone for profit?
  
  Is it bad for someone to charge you for mowing your lawn?
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  lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't like Romney...is that allowed?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, that's allowed, but why don't you answer my questions?
  
  So, you don't like capitalism?
  
  Is it bad for somebody to invent, say, an iPhone for profit?
  
  Is it bad for someone to charge you for mowing your lawn?
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  lovemychrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because it has nothing to do with Romney.
  Capitalism/Shmapitalism, he's a no-good Robber Baron In My Opinion..
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it does.
  
  You say you don't like Romney because he saved companies for a profit, and that it is only ok to save companies out of the goodness of your heart.
  
  So I wonder, is it ok for someone to charge to mow your lawn or to charge you for an iPhone?
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are leaving out a very important detail. Too often, those companies that were "saved" by Romney ended up going under due to the massive debt put on them by Bain Capital. Too often, that debt was used to pay off the investors while the workers lost their pensions and their jobs.
  
  There is nothing wrong with capitalism; there is something wrong with people who think it's okay to line their already-rich pockets while letting the poor and middle class sink. One can embrace capitalism without being a robber baron or condoning robber barons.
  
  Get it?
  
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And yet, nobody can provide any actual proof of this happening. I have provided proof of Romney creating jobs. Nobody has provided proof of what they keep claiming.
  
  Yes, some companies went bankrupt, but that doesn't mean everyone lost their jobs. GM and Chrysler used bankruptcy, it's a tool to give corporations another chance.
  
  Some companies went under after Bain was no longer in control.
  
  But nobody seems to be able to link anything to irresponsible management by Romney/Bain.
  
  I get the idea, but it's the facts that I'm concerned with.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Facts from factcheck.org: http://factcheck.org/2012/05/lemon-pick … ama-style/
  
  Read the entire article and you will have your proof.
  
  To be fair, Bain Capital apparently started out with a focus on saving small businesses. That focus eventually changed to enriching investors through leveraged buyouts. I'm not saying Bain didn't have success stories. They most certainly did. However, investors frequently made millions of dollars by putting companies heavily into debt in order to pay themselves, while claiming that no money was available to honor pensions.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have no respect for factcheck.org.
  
  From their article:
  
  "Both Obama and the super PAC Priorities USA Action spotlight two businesses — Ampad and GS Industries — that filed for bankruptcy while under Bain’s control"- emphasis mine
  
  Ampad was purchased by Bain in 1992, when its parent company was laying off workers(Mead). Bain grew Ampad's revenues by 50% year after year until 1996, when it became publicly traded. At that point, Bain no longer had controlling interest in Ampad. Ampad filed for bankruptcy in 1999, but that doesn't necessarily mean that jobs were lost, nor does it specify how many(if any). It's a moot point, because Bain couldn't control the company after 1996, and they were doing fine in 1996.
  
  Factcheck.org lied already in the second paragraph.
  
  GS Industries was slated to be closed in 1993 if no buyer could be found, as it was not profitable. Bain stepped in to try and turn things around. Things improved at GSI for a while, but in the late 90's GSI faced long labor strikes, a doubling in energy costs, and a flooding market of foreign steel imports. GSI petitioned the government to limit steel rod imports the problem was so bad. By the time GSI filed bankruptcy in 2001. The CEO of GSI stated that Romney and Bain had nothing to do with the bankruptcy, rather it was the changing marketplace that caused the problems. By 2001, a large portion of the US steel industry had gone under, not just GSI. GSI's CEO blamed it on rising costs and falling prices, there was no way to compete.
  
  http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … ake-gst-s/
  
  I could go on, but you just brought another example of poor reporting. The media has done a very poor job of covering the topic of Bain's record. If you don't believe me, I'll provide more sources, including links to financial reports that show how these companies were doing under Bain.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Both Obama and the super PAC Priorities USA Action spotlight two businesses — Ampad and GS Industries — that filed for bankruptcy while under Bain’s control"- emphasis mine
  
  This was a characterization of Obama's and the super PAC's ad. In other words, factcheck was pointing out the falsehood in the ads.
  
  Did you read the entire article? It was quite balanced. I'm not sure where else you claim they "lied" since you didn't point it out.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, no the page stopped loading at the first image, that happens to me sometimes. I was upset at FactCheck because I hadn't seen them correct that. I'll go back and read it again.
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  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  At the last count the person who invented the i-player hasn't made a penny out of it.
  Good old capitalism.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What?
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  innersmiffposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's the BBC's on-demand service. The British government did not invent the on-demand service so I don't understand John's point. And if the guy who made the iplayer isn't getting paid for it there's a serious problem somewhere!
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  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No it isn't the BBCs on demand service!
  It's that wretched little music player that everybody seems to have plugged into their brain these days.
  
  And damn it, I meant i-pod, not i-player, sorry, age and sunshine have done for me!
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  John Holdenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, stunning isn't it!
  Though the Englishman who invented the i-player did make something when Apple paid him to testify in court that he invented it.
  It was all about somebody else trying to shake down Apple claiming that Apple had stolen the invention from them and all the time Apple had got it else where.
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JSChamsposted 12 years ago
Let me see if I understand what I am hearing.....

No one should step in and turn a company around so that it makes a profit because doing so is evil and immoral?

Is that about it?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you make a profit from it... yes.
  
  And, especially if the company goes bankrupt(never mind whether or not anyone loses their jobs) half a decade after you no longer control the company.
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  JSChamsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh so we would have been better off letting some central committee in the government oversee that?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's what some people here would think... It's sad when someone would rather see a company go bankrupt than see someone make money by saving it.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are missing the point entirely.
  
  First, show me where anyone here has said they would rather see a company go bankrupt than see someone make money by saving it. Show me. At least be honest in your assessment of those who disagree with you.
  
  Second, the point is that Romney opened this can of worms by touting his Bain Capital experience as evidence that he would be good at creating jobs. Neither Bain Capital nor Romney has released any evidence that this is true. It is natural for his opponents to ask for evidence of such a statement and to scrutinize Romney's actions at Bain if that is what he is running on.
  
  And, as has been repeatedly pointed out, making money for investors is an entirely different goal than creating jobs. Sometimes jobs are created in the process, but oftentimes they are lost while investors get rich.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LMC has repeatedly denounced Romney, and finally admitted that it is solely because Romney made profit while saving companies.
  
  Yes, it's natural to look, but to call it vulture capitalism with no proof, or with using obviously distorted facts(like bringing out the former union leader who wouldn't agree to a 22% pay-cut in a shrinking industry), that's what we shouldn't be doing.
  
  When somebody does come along and provide facts, should people keep saying 'nu-uh, he slashed jobs and looted companies!'?
  
  The goal was to make money. How? By making companies more successful(or successful, period). Bain was not a raider. They wanted to make companies successful so they could draw more consulting fees. They had a vested interest in helping companies, and part of helping companies is creating jobs.
  
  Can you at least admit that in every instance where the facts of a company's financial situation are available, Bain had a positive effect?
  
  If not, can you provide proof of the opposite?
  
  My main point is that it's dishonest to discredit Romney without any proof, and it's more dishonest to discredit Romney in the face of proof to the contrary.
  
  My secondary point is that Obama did the same thing with the auto industry that Bain did, but nobody criticizes Obama for that.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I gave you proof in the article, which you seem to ignore. Yes, sometimes Bain saved companies, but sometimes Bain loaded a company with debt, used the borrowed money to enrich themselves, and let pensions go unpaid.
  
  Why do you insist that I am not admitting that sometimes Bain did good? Can you not also admit that sometimes Bain enriched themselves at the expense of a company and its workers?
  
  Show me where LMC said that, please.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If an entire industry completely changes due to the flood of new foreign imports, I don't blame Bain for that. Yes, Bain made money off of GSI, but before the market changed, GSI was doing well. That's my point, it's ridiculous to blame Romney or Bain.
  
  Let's say Romney/Bain hadn't made any money off of GSI. Their debt load would have been $358 million instead of $378 million. That relatively small figure had no discernible impact.
  
  Also, the GSI mill would have been closed down 8 years earlier if it weren't for Bain.
  
  So yes, it's dishonest to blame Bain for that instance.
  
  Ampad is worse, because it did very well under Bain, and didn't close until 5 years after Bain was no longer in control.
  
  So where is the problem?
  
  LMC said that in this thread, you can find it yourself. I believe his exact words were robber baron.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently, you and I are interpreting the same set of facts differently. No sense continuing the discussion. I disagree with your interpretation that it is unfair to judge Romney negatively for his role in Bain Capital. I guess it all comes down to what you value in a human being, especially one who wants to be President of the United States.
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innersmiffposted 12 years ago
I think that person should be praised, not elected President.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you think the knowledge of what barriers companies face to success isn't applicable in the presidency?
  
  Do you think the president should engage in the same practice as Obama did?
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  innersmiffposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No I don't think it matters next to their understanding of the basic principles of the free market and economics. I consider that one of the most important things, and Romney does not understand that. He is a corporatist puppet existing to serve the interests of Wall Streets, and not much more, much like Obama.
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  PrettyPantherposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Something we can agree on!
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