Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
- Greatest I amposted 12 years ago
0Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.
Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.
Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.
Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
These links speak to theistic evolution.
http://www.americamagazine.org/content/ … le_id=1205
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.
If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?
Regards
DL"Evil" is not a term I usually use when addressing the nature of our species-though it does apply so some, obviously, very much so.
But I do acknowledge the human 'shadow'-a la Carl Jung-which resides in every human being.
We are all beings I believe blessed with good qualities and frighteningly dark-and I find we must embrace both. Wholeheartedly
Otherwise we will battle the 'evil' forces to our own destruction.
Interesting post.
I myself have pondered these questions in my search of the truth these days.
For me, the story has never made sense. The question of evil and where it came from, and why we would sin.
Another aspect which confused me was this: if Adam and Eve sinned, why should all of us be cursed with going to hell by default simply because they did something terrible? It seems pretty cruel from a God who is supposed to be so just.
Also, does God have an evil element? After all, he created Lucifer, and look what he did. How could anything God made even have any capacity for evil?
These questions and many more have caused me many sleepless nights.Perhaps the first thing you should do is recognize that when Christianity usurped the Jewish God, they reversed what the Jews saw as man's elevation to that of a fall.
http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
The second thing I would recommend is to in no way read scriptures literally. The Jews do not.
All God's should be thought of as myths unless you are lucky enough to have an apotheosis or revelation. Even then, if you find God and suffer through apotheosis, you will know or learn that you are to raise your bar of expectation and seek further.
The Godhead is real but it is not the miracle working super absente immoral genocidal son murderer that Christianity has invented.
Seek yes but find a God with morals.
Regards
DLPerhaps. But for me, one version of Christianity is just as problematic as another.
I understand but see that you do not know exactly what Gnostic Christians are.
We are basically the goats to the Christian sheeple.
That is why they hate us and when Constantine bought the church, they killed many Gnostics and tried to burn all their scriptures. Gnostics seek God and know that for most he can never be found. It bases itself on real knowledge and not fantasy. That is why Christians hate us.
I do not seek converts though. Atheism and secular humanism are my next choice and what I would be if I had not found something to keep me in the spiritual camp. Not the religious camp.
Regards
DL
God did not tell Eve to eat the fruit, Satan did. Satan was not truly a "Serpent" it was a term used to represent darkness. He was supposedly a very handsome fallen angel. God knew we would sin and would be tempted. God is not always nice as people portray him to be and all fall short of the Glory of God.
God has also given all of us "Free Will" each individual can make their own decisions. Humans know right from wrong and what choices they need to make. I personally prefer to be kind to others and not be malicious toward another person.Thanks for the dogma. Now try thinking.
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
Regards
DL
------------------------
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
I gave a message to A F just above. You need to read it because you have lost your reason and logic to fantasy, miracles and magic.
You should not base a theology on fantasy.
Regards
DL
It sounds as you are saying that Sin and Evil are one and the same?
I think to do anything which is harmfull to our mind, body or spirit (or anyone elses) is a sin.
Evil ?? I'm not exactly sure as to what that is .... by the sound of its name alone; I don't want any of it on MY plate.Yet you cannot help but do it.
Right?
Regards
DLYEP! can't help but to sin .... the evil thing? I am not aware if I was.
won't explain why but I don't get to get on here much any more ...sorry took so long to respond.Then let me broaden your awareness.
The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.
You could have done the empathic or kind thing and let him win but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.
You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil.
Regards
DL
- genaeaposted 12 years ago0
When I struggled with this question (for years) I found some relaxation in Romans chs 5-8. This section of the bible sort of speaks to these questions. I feel that God did create evil ,though it could have existed in the void atmosphere for all i Know for sure. There were two trees. The bible says he created the earth from nothing. Our free will means nothing if we have no options.
No, we can't help but do wrong. My Christian faith says that God deals with us as we are. He knows our hearts intent. When we err, we are remorseful and we say sorry, and God our father says ok.
no condemnation. For me, it is a way of life that struggles to do right rather than the much easier wrong. Evil is among us. With God's instruction, it does not overtake us. Punishment??? The jury is still out on that for me. There are "punishments" listed but again, we are dealt with according to our hearts and faith. Gods mercy endures forever.
The question grabbed me.If as you say, you cannot help but do evil, then is God's punishment fair and just?
Remember that you are doing finite sins and his punishment is eternal purposeless torture.
You spoke of A & E and free will.
How do you see the justice of what God did the first time A & E showed they were actually free to choose when they chose to do their will and not God's by eating of the tree of knowledge?
Was it just punishment?
Regards
DLOnly God can say what just is. I feel that it must have been important enough for them to be told to stay away from the tree. The bible says that God is just. But he can see the whole picture. He knew what would happen if the people ate of knowledge. The people, being ignorant, did not. It may have helped for them to leave the tree alone, but somebody, somewhere would have eaten. Free will was given, knowledge was taken, and consequences were the result. Yes, the punishment was just. They were free to choose...but they had instructions. They chose wrong. They and their children pay forever. One knowledge comes, it comes.
"Only God can say what just is."
I see. That means yiou are an idol worshipper who has pasted her bible pages all over a golden calf. You have hidden thee calf but it's shape is still showing.
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
------------------------
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
Regards
DLSince yours is extremely long, I will do my best to keep my post concise. Maybe it was not God's plan, but he knew what the children, being of free mind, would do. Therefore he made a way to fix the problem from the beginning. Idol worshipper??? I am in no way moved by that statement. It just doesn't seem to fit. However, God is God. We cannot figure out the entire picture. It is just too much for us to process. He gave us instructions. We are his children. As his children, we obey the instructions (on the "fridge") until he gets off work. If we don't obey, there will be consequences (or no tv) right? I mean, we (as A&E) just dont understand. Eve did not know the harm that she could cause. God did not tell her. He said, dont. She then had a choice. As we do now.
So God had no plan. Rather selective reading on your part and certainly not the dogma that your immoral religion shows.
"Therefore he made a way to fix the problem from the beginning."
Yes. To have his son murdered.
"It is just too much for us to process."
For you it seems so.
For those who can thing, this does not apply.
Regards
DLI am not sure what you are looking for. If God planned for everything to happen then who are we to judge him??? I say if he wants puppets (or those who merely play their roles in his big elaborate production) the how can you or I stop him? I think free will means free will but you see it differently? But God does what he wants. I have decided for myself that I will follow the instructions, especially the ones left by Jesus. I don't have to justify my belief. I only have to report it.
Sa-lay-very??? You kiddin'? I am so free it is frightening sometimes. The many, many, many years I spent in the church didn't help though. But I realize why I spent that time. I am freer than the "average" Christian. The rules that Jesus spoke against are still alive and kicking in the average church. I want you to ask me what you desire. If I can, I will answer. But all this talk about bondage is ridiculous! I am bound however. The Lord is my shepherd.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago0
I believe the crux of the problem to be that we are attempting to define sin on a global scale. The answer lies within. Sin and evil lie within and we project it onto the rest of mankind. We eat of the apple each time we perceive evil.
I'm not implying that no one does anything wrong. We all do, by our perception. However, we have to see it and label it as evil in order for it to be perceived as evil. I think the more evil you see, the more it resides in you; not the other way around.
The problem with labeling things evil is that you refuse to compassionately view your fellow man. You trivialize the circumstances and thought processes that brought them to that point.
That is why the saying 'Judgement is mine, saith the Lord' carries so much weight. You cannot know what motivates another human being. Why be so quick to see sin and evil? We set ourselves up to be judged in kind and we are party to the process of increasing the perception of sin by geometric proportions.I honestly don't believe that to label something evil is simply reflection. We all know good from evil, well, most of us. How can I not look upon injustice, or murder, or rape, or hatred as evil? When I see the evil act, am I merely seeing me because I noticed it? If the murderer or rapist or hater looks upon your acts and call them good; is it because he too is good? Really... No offense. I just would really like to understand what you mean when you say that.
I don't think you see yourself in the actions of others. Most of us wouldn't commit a heinous act. The problem is, we don't try to see ourselves. That is the root of sin.
Put it this way. When you feel you have fallen short, you ask God for forgiveness. You know there are extenuating circumstances. You were a good person who reacted poorly to an unfortunate chain of events. You know God loves you and will take everything into account and, even though your actions were wrong you will be forgiven. Because, there are underlying factors only God can see.
The sin is in not loving your fellow man enough to care to understand the underlying causes. And your fellow man is expecting to be judged by an unreasonable yardstick. When you see the worst in another, that is all you see. And they know they will be judged by others only by the limited perception of each individual viewing nothing more than the actions, never by people attempting to understand the how and why.
If you were to pick up something in a store and walk out and I labeled you a thief, would I be right? Even if your family owned the store and that was the standard practice? No.
What if I told others you were a thief. They explained the circumstances to me and I continued to call you a thief? I set myself up to be judged harshly in response. By the different perception of as many people who know my actions. All different. These people, in turn, will be judging me harshly and those they encounter will continue the process; judging not only me, but the people who judged me first. Simply because I first perceived evil where none existed.
It works that way with everything we chose to judge. We set ourselves and the world around up for failure, by not giving each other the same benefit of the doubt we expect from a higher plane.Ok, I see what you mean. However, what if I am a liar? It is wrong to lie. I know that I make a practice of lying. Are you a liar if you notice me lying and call me out?
It wouldn’t be wrong to notice the lie. But it would be wrong to label the lie a sin or evil. I have no idea why you lied. I need to know what motivated you to lie before I can begin to ponder what it ultimately means.
I know that isn’t a good enough explanation, but there are an infinite number of variables that contribute to any course of action. Nothing need be so simple that we just write it off as bad, or evil, or sin; without first attempting to understand why. There is always a why and the why is important. When we ponder the why we find the good. We justify our own actions by the why. We see ourselves as good because of the why and we owe others the same consideration.
If we never lost sight that there was always a why we wouldn’t recognize evil because it wouldn’t exist. We would constantly be striving to help bring our perception of good to the surface of our perception of others.I understand. God looks at the why, and he is the only one who "really" can. No judgment from us and that is why... We just can't see the heart. Yes we are to love without condition. I see your point. That is the kind of love God has. He wants us to love in spite of our brother's condition.
I would say we were supposed to love in spite of our skewed perception. Simply because if I say 'I love you, in spite of your condition', it comes of as judgmental. I honestly don't know what his condition might truly be.
But, we are on the same page.In spite of our skewed perception. I can't hate my ex for dropping my 6mo old in a pot of boiling water because he was tired of changing diapers. God looks at the heart. Now, the instance did not occur in my life, but I knew and loved her. Such a cruel act can and will be labeled. However, I must love. The act was an evil act. God decides the rest of it. There are consequences. I believe the why sometimes is irrelevant. Consequences.
I'm so very sorry genaea. No one should ever have to deal with the pain of such as that.
Thanks. I felt horrible for that young lady. My point for the story was just to illustrate that evil is evil. We need to be able to recognize it so that we may steer clear. Sin are those things that go against right. We need to be able to recognize it. Now judging someONE as evil is God's business. The acts are to be paid some attention by us though. If one consistently ACTS evil, he shows us where his thoughts are, he begs to be left alone by those who strive to stay away from evil. (I probably would have fed Jeffrey Dahmer, -an act of love- but, he probably would not be allowed to eat alone with me -a consequence.)
You are soooo evil. I cried when I read that. I thought you were talking about yourself. I was worried about you.
I'll be honest, some acts are so far removed from what we consider to be acceptable that it is impossible to put them into perspective. People such as Dahmer to the side, my heart does go out to many people who commit tragic crimes. I worry about what will happen to them if, and when, they come to understand what they have done to others. The pain of remorse will be more punishment than we could ever mete out.
There are no hard and fast rules in life, so there will always be an exception; but I still stand behind my statement that we create the perception of evil when it would be possible to see the good in its stead.
And I do believe the things that happen which we cannot understand are the result of someone failing another human being at a critical point in their development. There is good in everyone and we have to be there to help them see it in themselves. The only way to do that is to make them see that we see it. And we can't do that by judging them.Sorry Emile. The me and my was for impact. Again, i apologize. You called me evil:) i won't go there, but i did in the next line say that it did not happen in my life. Sharpen your perception;) i think that since we (christians) do have a definitive set of rules, we are in a good position. There is a bar by which to measure our behavior. When the ultimate love of God is allowed to be paramount, then all those other things fall into place. No more killing and lying and stealing. It makes us too sorry. When we do, and we do; we measure automatically. The holy spirit ensures it. Evil is evil no matter why. I may have had a "good enough" reason for acting out evil, but still i yielded to the temptation to be evil. I could have chosen to do good instead. We all know right from wrong. That idiot could have chosen ice water.
I did see the second part and it seemed at odds, but you first said it happened to you. So, I decided to err on the side of caution and extend my condolences. It would have felt callous to ask for clarification.
And, as a Christian, you might look back to your scriptures and see what was said about calling someone an idiot.No clarification needed if uou had only read what was there. I did not fool you, your perception was clouded by what you had read. That was your error, not mine. I am not applogizing for an error, i apologized because you were hurting for me, though your hurt was not for nought, it did happen to someone, i still hurt, and that baby, grown up now, still lives with the scars im sure. Please tell me what my scriptures say about calling someone an idiot.
Actually genaea, you did create confusion, on purpose. I didn't ask for an apology. None is owed. You did what you did to prove a point. I didn't consider it to be proof of a point; but I wasn't willing to comment on it because you had created enough confusion to ensure that I couldn't. Had I commented, you would have called me callous and pretended that your first statement was the correct one. Or not. I don't know. So, why don't you just leave it at that?
As to calling someone an idiot, I consider the same as calling someone a fool. You could have easily googled this but, after a protracted conversation with another believer in another thread, I'm beginning to see that believers don't believe in even the simplest forms of research.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:21-22
Anger
21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother[a] will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; [b] and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell[c] of fire.
Since you believe in the Bible and hell; you might rethink your previous statement.Ok, again, you are sure that I intended on scamming you? Are you reflecting? My next line was clear. Now I will leave it at that. Anyhow, a literal translation would clear me. That idiot, is not you fool, in no way shape nor fashion. So, since you are so excited about researching the scriptures, read some more. But, before you start, clear your brain. Ask God to give you the knowledge of what it all means. Ask him for his spirit to keep you. Then live life from there if you wish, you may not be so tense and quick to correct. You will be too busy learning and loving.
I'm not tense genaea. I was, and remain, disappointed.
For you, possibly.
Do you really understand what you are writing here; what you said to Emile?
I read her comments and yours, unbiased, and can assure you, what you are stating emphatically is from a biased perspective -regardless of the circumstances. Because circumstances are the effect of Reason. Reason is the failure, or better said, the misstep of Truth.
She is correct. You are making assumptions of what is true or what others did/do, based on the parameters of truth as you perceive it.
You -like most- are too interested in the revenge of consequences, based on old coven and applied to life experiences, to justify that feeling. Yet equally sat Let Go, Let God.
We do understand, which is precisely why you argue to protect your thinking, your reason -from text or not. You live -like Eve- choose when you are supposed to live without choice, in complete faith...
My question then is: why do you feel so guilty, so compelled to defend your position through memorized texts --the already fulfilled old coven terms/conditions?
James.An even better question, Hi James:), is this: Why do you feel so compelled to knock me off of my path??? I don't bother you. I never come to you to tell you how to feel or what to think. Are you missing what I have? The bible says to choose. That must mean we have a choice, and should act on that. I am not the one who made the rules. Nor am I the enforcer of said rules. I am only telling the truth as I see it. If you see it differently, ok. But know this, you and I do not mix in thought. The words you speak sound foreign and made up from a hodge-podge of made uppedness. You will not get me onto your train. Must we constantly disagree? Cant we just do it one time and call it a wrap??? Emile is a big girl. She surely is capable of putting words together, I've seen it with my own eyes. As for your question. My God has ensured guilt-free for me a long time ago. I don't walk a path that requires it. I defend my position with the memorized text because I was told to. It works every time. I have no need/desire to veer. The words work. When nothing else does. But I know you know already. And it may have something to do with why you are so envious of me. But, you can have it too. Peace is amazing:)
You, really, make little sense. And if I had not experienced the self-imposed command of the text absolute, would probably not understand where you are angling from. Sadly, I do, which makes it even more bizarre.
So, let's take it from the top, shall we?!
Hello Genaea! Good to see you.Path, what path? Oh, you mean what you believe to be the true and only correct path? Well, sadly to be 'knocked off' a path, you have to be on it. Given our previous conversation as testimony, can only conclude this to be true: you have many knockoff paths...a lot of zigzag around it.Please, no sulking, it is unbecoming of a lady.Well, it would be nice if you did, you know, us being humans and all, striving together for immortality. But, besides that, I need only read what is posted.What do you have that I do not? Some hidden wisdom or yod of text I overlooked in the 14 some translations, which I too memorized and spoke the same as you?Wham! Zigzag. From 'I have something you don't have -na na' to 'the bible says' {deep echo voice}. The bible says to choose what, exactly? To make it a god and worship it above the Creator? Maybe. Even if it does not, people are certainly doing that, yes?Right, so why then do you continue to have to choose or keep choosing? Seems you still have not made up your mind and still do not trust your own heart -a heart that is the light of Life, of Creator. Awkward... furthermore, choice is inside of reason -which is ego and only ego. If you still have to choose, ya kinda missed the entire point. Choice is exactly what is keeping you from Truth.Actually, you did and do make the rules. But, you pretend Creator made rules for you to follow. The only rule is the Golden Rule, Love. But like the Hebrews before you, who lived and breathed every yod of their text, added 603 addition rules to a simple ten, you also add burden to yourself and others. But, you only do so, because you do not know any better. You continue to believe, to need-to-believe, and need to credit or justify every corner of that belief, by binding it to the text. You also enforce those rules upon yourself -and others you continue to strive to save or minister to {indoctrinate} into the bible cult[ure].Yes, I am well aware of that. I know your mode of thinking, because to you it makes sense.Ha! That is a boldfaced lie. We do mix in thought -all of us. We are all irresistible to another. and rather than enforce your rule of vendetta and division, you should be seeking to heal and unite. Do you see it yet?Hmm, I have little doubt my words sound foreign to many. Which is kind of cool. But, just because you prefer not to see them or study them, does not mean the are incorrect either. There are many here, on HP, and many more in real-time, from SAHM to Power Brokers, every day people -even children and their nannies, who do understand every single word. Choo-choo. Ha! That was cute. But, seriously, there is no train to get on. And why you seem hellbent on the idea that everyone is trying to harm you, knock you or deceive you -you have failed to see you have, in essence, deceived yourself...I do not see it as disagreement...Wow, such a tone of segregation and, well, a rather boring notion. What kind of human are you?!Finally, to the point. If you re-read your posts, you might see that statement differently.Precisely! You were told to by words in a book, and are still being the good little robot, bringing burnt offerings and washing it down with high fructose corn syrup. It is not even you who wants to do this. Are you seeing it yet? Yes, you said a mouthful.Yes, Hebrews said the same. Look what happened to them, over and over. Stiff necked people they were called, refusing to veer or bend. How does the saying go, "To those who choose captivity, into captivity they will go". How many times were the Followers of the Rules made slaves, captives, oppressed, overrun, even killed? That's odd, because I was told only faith works. And the works of man -memorized texts; his reasoning- cannot reveal salvation nor the KOH. In fact, the rules -texts, laws- keep a person in Reason -which is the knowledge of good-evil.Wham! Fiery dart -deflected! Nice try. Envy you? for what, you have nothing I want nor need.Yes, what you call peace is satisfaction, and not peace. Satisfied to have the text, and a little hovel of a hide, away from the world. A game of shadows.
James.You're funny!!!!!!!
you should end your posts with bwaa-ha-ha-ha-ha. I may respond once I settle down. Im outside and preoccupied.Finally, a moment. Ok, I can't do the cut-paste, but I will try to respond thoroughly, you always talk so much (I wonder about that. Do you?). I will start with the fact that you seem a bit "hell-bent" yourself:) my path is sure. From our past, if you care to remember, I have consistently spoken one language. You however, have spoken many; you say I have many knock-off paths??? So, now I see what you mean by reflection. Zig-zag? You must know how, well.
I have made my choice, I only had to do that once. My life will always seek to be like Jesus. Not James;) i know Jesus from "the book" and that one agrees with the spirit within me. I know you feel alright about your new-fangled love/light-darkness/enlightened discovery, but I did tell you before that I can't eat your berries:) I won't offer you another apple:) lol. I know you miss it. That is why you cling to me You know you just love your genaeatime. I have the father within me. I know I am right. If you have the same assurance, why bother with the WAY I walk...huh? I mean heck, James. Wanna do lunch with me and my honey, or something? Shoot! 
please know, I will be serving you Jesus biscuits, with bible gravy, and blood (you know who's I will never turn you away. Other than that, what can we do? This head-butting is fun-n-all, but... Oh!!! The bible is a guide for me. It is not worshipped, as you say. I have a lot of respect for scripture because it allows me to know when self/ego is too large. It guides the follower in every matter of life. Yes, the WORDS work. They live in me. They live in you. And my Emile (I love her so). You know they work. The adulteration of them, don't work. Na-na that, James! That is not the Truth, that is your truth, yes? What leads and guides into all Truth -every matter concerning Life & godliness? Come on now, you know this one.I too respect the text, as a historical reference and very poetic piece of literature. But I do not -in any way, shape or form- put it before Creator to idolize it {worship: to meditate on day-night; adore; look wide eyed at; seek its council, affirmation, support} as you are saying you do, and everyone else ought to. This is precisely what the Hebrews did and taught. "Bind the words between your eyes, meditate on them day and night; wrap them around your right arm; teach them to your children and their children; Put them on your door posts so you remember them as you go in and out." Yet, Moshiach said all of that was useless. It was ego that brought the laws, the prophets, the laments, reason and such. And ego that maintains them. They even went so far as to believing the text made a person righteous in their thinking, because they memorized it and recited it as often as possible, all day every day -holidays, weekends, feast days, morning noon and night.
Moshiach said to let go of the law and all its parts and be born again -by the spirit, in spirit, who would lead/guide into all truth. I mean, if you are still drinking milk, you cannot grow correctly. At some point, you have to close the book, wait for the Spirit and be fed solid food. And like it or not, you may have left the church, but the church has not left you {is still in you} -is still evident in every word you are saying. Not true. The words in the bible do not live in me. The words in the bible may be stored in my mind, yes, but they are not the Ruach {Word} of Creator. They have no power!!! Go ahead, put it to the test. Quote them aloud, at the top of your lungs, like the priests of baal did to Elijah. And I will respond just like Elijah and ask if your God is on the toilet {yes, that is the literal translation of his statement, lol, gotta love the Hebrews!}
Do you see that beautiful sky up there; that tiny little bug crawling on the dirt, the dirt itself? That IS the Word, the Breath of Life. This is the issue I am emphasizing, the rest of the issues are pretty much irrelevant. Moshiach said that Word is to live in you -and is your life itself -is life itself. So to pass from death {memorized law, rules, good-evil, reason, etc} to Life {immortality in body, brain and spirit; unity with Creator -he in you/you in He} that Word must live in you and you should meditate on that Word day-night, every chance you get. Not the written words in books.
This is the issue with Theos {religions of science and sensation}. Both sides are trying to use their own power and external elements -bibles, microscopes, particle accelerators, political, legal means etc to understand and control the mysteries of Life. Where is the salvation in that? Where is the need for faith then if those words {in the bible} are all that is required, necessary? Makes no sense at all.
Jesus biscuits? lol.
PS, I actually do not talk much, but do write a lot -and really enjoy it.
And if you are planning on having a Hub BBQ, and inviting me, be ready for some serious critique - am a former professional chef, love every kind of food {except mayonnaise} -especially Americana Southern.
James.I love mayo!!! Now, you're going too far
next, how can you say that you have respect for scripture when you feel it is not needed? Jesus said he came to fulfill the laws. NOT change them. The rules are still in effect. The people in biblical times used it to "seem" better than the rest. The man told God, "See, I'm good, i don't do this, I do that, i follow." In a sense, love me because I am good. Jesus said that the more acceptable prayer was, now, I know YOU know this one:) the spirit of God leads and guides us in all matters, yes. However, his words spoken in our hearts agree with what is written. God's word is forever. He did change the consequences, because of Jesus. He changed the way we are to do things as in, no more bull-killing to atone for sin because still their hearts were still filthy. Yet, they believed that since the bull was dead, life as usual. Sin away, we've got plenty bulls!!! "Wash the cup, Jamar! So you can be acceptable." Jesus said, nope you got it wrong fellas, the inside of your cup sucks. Or something like that;). They said, how you gon heal that boy on a Sunday? You can't be the son! Jesus showed them their error there too. Jesus spoke the words of scripture all the time. He just correctly devided it. The sabbath was made for the people, not the other way around. So, i will definitely bind the words, Sir. I will know what the word of the Lord says. I will know that my heart is right when It says, you don't have to get your clothes on and go meet Jesus because he is at Kroger. I would not know that w/o the script. I would be fooled by my failing heart that longs for Jesus to come. See? I neeeeeeed the bible. I still need some stuff it says. If you don't it is fine. But be careful, we got Jesus sightings all the time:)Kroger, where down south are you?
And if there were a devil, mayonnaise would be it. Used to make roughly 50 gallons of fresh mayo a week. I cannot even get near the smell of it or I start hurling. lol.
Now, you never answered my question: where is the salvation then, the need for faith if the book is all that is required -read, recite, remember?
And again, exactly what the Hebrews did. You gave perfect examples that.
The Hebrews would see the deeds and match them up with the text, just like you do.
"But, brother, the Torah says you cannot do this/that. Rules are rules!"
Torah was called the Good Book long before 14th century.
Now tell the truth, what did folks do from 33 BCE to the mid 14th century, until the bible was compiled {inaccurately I might add}?
Awkward....
PS, who's cooking?
JamesLived down south once for a year. Said Kroger because it was the first universal sounding thing that came to mind. Nothing more. Now, I live in Illinois. Yes, sort of southeasterly. You are not far from me, yes? Anywho, I did not make mayo ever. I gotta have it:/ a sandwich just isn't a sandwich...
yes, i know it is gross to some, but so what. It won't defile my soul.
For me, the soul is connected to the word of God. For me, his musts and possiblies are in the bible. The Spirit of God rests, rules, and abides within me. His word, the bible, serves as a resource. I would not know these things without the bible. You would not know the things you know, of God, without the bible. I think the "church" twists some of it, because w/o the twist, the offering plate is possibly empty. And the pews are possibly empty. It is a money- making scheme in many instances and I have seen that at almost all of them. Hundreds literally, from my viewpoint, here and abroad. See, our church travelled, back in the day. You may have suffered from some of that adulteration. Changing the word of God for personal gain is one of those no-nos. Again, I would not know that w/o... You guessed it! God deals with those who do that. As a teacher, there must have been a time you said, or didn't say, based upon your pockets. You got tired of THAT charade. I applaud you. Please don't forget the words of Jesus, the first one who actually got it right. God, or one who agrees so totally as to be called by his name, came and showed us how to do it. He died so that we may be released from the first "money-grubbin' word adulterators, who were prideful because they were called God's only link at the time, so they became puffed up and started adding stuff to control the people" we are free! But responsible for our output. Only the words of God are pure. But if the ones in your heart, DON'T agree with the words Jesus spoke, while he was here, you are an ADULTERER. Going OUTSIDE of your first marriage. Jesus knew the ultimate truth and all that it contains. It made him an excellent teacher. He learned first, remember? Or maybe he actually was teaching them the correct way to devide the scriptures, even as a boy in his father's house. Seems like those "DEAD" scriptures said something about that. Jesus left an unmistakable record of what he said. The IMPORTANT matters of the law are written for ALL to see. What's ur beef? Please smile, I sure am.Am always traveling between San Francisco and New York City.
Speaking of, I know the 1st Century believing traveled up to 25 miles at a time, and on Sabbath no more than a 1/3 mile, as they still followed the rules of Torah. When Nero destroyed Rome, everybody fled for the mountains and anywhere they could hide.
And Grr, you still dodged my question. {grumbles}
Still, the contradiction is in this:So, you agree then the spirit is the word -the ruach, yes? {hears squealing breaks..........} That is the contradiction. Saying the word lives in you, rests in you, rules over you -then to say you would not know that He does without the external text makes no sense. Which seals my point, I suppose, that when the Spirit is in you, the book goes out the window just from the shear magnitude of revelation of spirit. We -you, me, everyone can most certainly know Him, His Word, without ever hearing the words from the text.
James.I know what you mean, James. There is one or two without the bible and they do fine. But to disagree with the words that are there is merely going against the one who did it right. So ok, if you don't need the bible, ok. But if you disagree with one tittle, you are totally off base. Do you agree with that, at least???
Off-subject, i noticed your pic change. I don't know how from my phone. HP asked for filename. Can you tell me where to find out how?From a phone, no. From the web, you may choose an already uploaded file, or upload a new one from your profile page.
Not really. Even if no one knew everything in Torah pointed to Moshiach or that work had been fulfilled by Him, via the text, wouldn't change the indwelling power, ability, reality. The text may provide affirmation of events, which is history, not emphatic power.Again, no. Even a tittle can be disagreed with, which is precisely why the text should not be referenced, quoted or even considered, regarding guidance into Truth. Again, when I say guidance into Truth, I am expressly referring to the Spirit within, correctly revealing that Word {of His power} and resetting the minds method of thinking accordingly. Text is text, and it causes division, opinion, conflict, wars and whatever else man deems necessary to protect it. In addition -and a huge point- is the text is keeping, has kept and will keep millions from experience. An experience called Eternal Life, immortality.
James.Thanks. Must get another pc.
Ok, the jury is in. You do not believe the bible should be referenced, yet, you reference it. How's that for "all over the place"? There are so many that will follow you, and have gone before you. So, you keep on properly dividing your insides, since that works for you. I will be working with the bible. Are we there yet?I reference -actually paraphrase- the text, sometimes, simple because of textual mentions, and nothing more. I do not quote or reference the text, like most do, because they believe it to be absolute and containing power or revelation of the KOH. It does not. To be thoroughly accurate, the entire text is a compilation of parables/short stories, even poetry and songs, from Genesis to Johns Revealing. A parable is a story, a mystery, not easy to decipher or understand. Interesting how millions, upon millions of believers -and nonbelievers equally- are scrambling day and night to decipher the text. lol.
Parody could not be funnier. In essence they are all outside -external -at the door of the KOH, not letting themselves or anyone else in. So, it all -again- comes back to the experience of practical faith versus the regurgitation of information, that convinces people they have it "right", are righteous by memorization or can be made righteous by evoking names, slices of text {sound bites} -even full chapters- as absolute wisdom, absolute power, absolute authority or absolute instruction.
Not one yod {tittle} of the text can bring anyone, anything to life, nor root in them eternal life. And that is the entire point, yes, of believing in the first place. Experience -manifesting the example, proof- nullifies all textual necessity, voids all reason {be it rightly or wrongly dividing}, it ends the good-evil paradox and renews both individual and collective. Millions upon billions desire this experience. Me, I am of the heart and mind to believe, without hesitation, they all can achieve it should they put the aesthetics {books, banter, bangles, beads, beliefs and benevolence -whew, that's a lot of b's} aside, permanently, and start fresh: Spirit-spirit, Heart-heart, Creator-creation, just like it was "In the beginning...".
James.Great, James! You seem to "b" on track with yourself!!!
It's good to see someone "b" so close to the father, that he does not need to reference what Jesus (God) did himself, reference, CORRECTLY, let me add (there). I cannot damage or shake your faith in your ultimate truth. You have proof that the "b" should also accompany an "s"
I read your profile last night. We have a lot in common! I love pool (tho I feel that term probably gets under your skin, for some reason:) i bought a table last year! The game is my release, though I'm nowhere near expert. We differ here, Vodka (with juice:), and HipHip hop, or something smoother once it gets late. A "dope" bass beat groove beats blaring guitars any day, in my opinion. Not sure who your music people are, or what genre they play. So, billiards (pool) it is! We must!!! See you in the next forum/thread. Love ya!Matisyahu - King Without A Crown
Matisyahu - Sunshine
This is some of 'my' music people. lol. He is a former Hasidic Hebrew and the only one to ever do Ska/Reggae. You might like it. He too believed he needed rules -lots of rules, until one day...
Funny thing, he looks a lot like my brother, must be the Arab side of our family. lol
Back in the day, it was gin n juice, a blunt and double blind spades til 5am...ah, college days.
James.Yep, a dude after my own heart! Lol. My brother, now dead at 39, loved the game of spades. Double blind, we only attempted a few times. But he, my aunt, his homie, and i played just like that (taking a out of the mix) for hours a day, for years! So we agree somewhere. Let the judgment begin...NOT!!! I know what I know. Im covered
harmony...peace...see, it's possible!
Hi genaea. I know this comment will fall on deaf ears, but james reflects wisdom in his posts. I don't see his words as contrary to anything written in the Bible, but more along the lines of understanding what was written. Knowledge doesn't always result in wisdom. Some people just take memorized words and repeat them, without understanding them. James appears to understand better than most.
I don't always understand everything he writes, but I think about it because I have no doubt it's worth thinking about. You should try it too. It can't hurt, and might help.Thanks Emile. But, I feel that James is full of knowledge about a lot of things. But knowledge gets in the way of the kimgdom of God in life sometimes. Go to the book and ask Solomon. Man cannot serve two masters. He will love one and hate the other. I think that we humans find ways to "serve" knowledge. I know that this post probably fell on deaf ears, but I'll say it again, if you need me to
you are my favorite for sure.I'm not referencing knowledge, but wisdom. We learn this, that and the other throughout our lives. All important, in their own right. But, putting it all together, understanding how each very important piece contributes to the whole, and becomes another even bigger whole, is the beginning wisdom. We can all remain mired in our corner of understanding; or we can embrace the greater whole.
Did you check the scriptures about that definition of the beginning of wisdom? I did catch that. Knowledge and wisdom differ. I like you because you seem to be very/extremely/oober, intelligent. And pure in heart. I love those qualities. You seem to get a bit mean at times, but, i was promised that I would be hated. Now i know you don't hate me. But at times you hate what I say. Then you blow, or, wrap me up in a word /definition web, and I smile and walk you through the steps out:) I too love people. All of them. Easily:)
I'm not uber intelligent. I was simply raised to be more pragmatic than most. Or, more probably, it's simply who I am.
And, I have been known to allow my frustrations to get the better of me. I do recognize that and, would apologize But, as I told you before. It has been my experience when I recognize and address my percentage of the responsibility for a problem (as someone else perceives it) I am usually broadsided by the other party's refusal to respond in kind (as I perceive it). Life is a lesson in give and take. I now wait. Until the other party shows signs of honest dialogue. It saves a great deal of frustration.
As long as you perceive hate, you aren't open to honest dialogue.
I refrain from the use of the word love. I consider it over used and shallow. They are only words. Actions are never shallow when I make the effort to understand them. I think I do the best I can with my actions. I fall short of the mark I set. But I learn, and try to do better each day. Maybe one day I'll actually get it.But you must be patient with those who are not as learned. Pragmatism is a form of love; meet your brother, or sister, in this case, where she is. Love looks beyond ignorance. I was raised in practicality myself. You could not be more practical than my granddad. Love, harmony, peace. Those things are required of me. I won't let my ignorance to get the better of me in a conversation with you, one for whom I have a great deal of respect.
Yes. You can help but do evil.
Can I help but do evil? Not as of yet.
That being said...those are by my standards. Which do not necessarily reflect the opinion of any higher consciousness within the cosmos.Evolution says that the entity must either compete or cooperate to survive.
"Yes. You can help but do evil. "
How can they not compete and do evil to the loser of that competition?
If an entity never competes for resources, would it not die?
Try to explain your statement please.
A fairly exact scenario would be nice.
Regards
DLYou answered the question yourself. Cooperate.
Thanks for the scenario. Not.
Here is how life works. Refute it if you can.
The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.
You could have done the empathic or kind thing and let him win but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.
You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil.
Regards
DLThat scenario is ridiculous. I suppose it would make sense if all of the following were true:
1. We were only allowed to apply for a position with the same job description once in our lifetimes, and there was only one job available for every two people.
2. In order to ‘beat someone out of the position’ I actually had to physically beat them.
3. Death results from not being hired for a job
4. Our society did not have safety nets set in place to help the unemployed.
I have not gotten every position I applied for. I do not consider the person who got the position evil. I don’t consider the firm that chose someone else evil. And, I’m going to be brutally honest here, I consider it disturbing that you would present such a ludicrous scenario as if it were evidence of evil.So much for you knowing what life is all about.
Too bad you cannot follow a logic trail and have no clue as to how evolution works.
Regards
DL
GIA,
Have seen you throw that term out a few times. Sadly, there can be no such thing as a Gnostic Christian or Christian Gnostic. The terms are at odds with one another. If one claims to be a GC or CG, then sadly they too are at odds within themselves...
JamesIgnore history if you want.
Christian Gnosticism in the first centuries.
Important early Gnostics include Simon Magus, Cerinthus, Carpocrates, and Basilides. Early figures such as Marcion, Theudas, and Nicolas of Antioch are more debatable.
Jesus is usually claimed as a gnostic leader by gnostics, as are several of his apostles, such as Thomas the Apostle, often thought of as the founder of the Thomasine form of Gnosticism. Indeed, Mary Magdalene is respected as a Gnostic leader, and is considered superior to the twelve apostles by some gnostic texts, such as the Gospel of Mary. John the Evangelist is claimed as a Gnostic by some Gnostic interpreters.[1] As is even St Paul.[2]
A student of Valentinius claims that Theudas was a student of St. Paul, and in turn taught Valentinius, which would put Theudas in the late 1st century if true.
Nicolas of Antioch and Jezebel of Thyatira are sometimes claimed as leaders of the Nicolaitans described in the Book of Revelation. They were late 1st century figures. It's unclear just how Gnostic these figures were, but Epiphanius believes that the Archontic Gnostics are descendents of the Nicolatians.
By the 2nd century several major schools are separating out, such as the Sethians (with no clear leaders), and the Valentinians following the teachings of Valentinus.
By the 3rd century the prophet Mani gave birth to Manicheanism, a syncretic gnostic religion which was influenced by Buddhism, Zoroastrianism and Christianity.
http://www.google.ca/search?sourceid=na … n+Magus%2c
Accept it or--------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4NKYn4A3mg
Regards
DL
If no living thing commits evil except humans, it is because no living thing engages in excess and profit except humans.
Knowledge = the collective mirror of light-dark; revealed-hidden; good-evil.
Reason = the dividing of Knowledge.
Sin = justifying the passion, behind Reason.
Ego {ha-satan: to create opposition, to be adverse to; to cause division}
Agape/Philos = the combined Force of [all] Life which supersedes Knowledge and Reason. Creator is Agape / Creator is Philos {Wisdom}.
What opposes Agape / Wisdom? Ego, which creates Sin, which is Reason, the dividing of Knowledge, which leads to death.
James.I'm just curious if you've contacted the dictionary companies with your brand new definitions?
And in Kind, have you contacted the Guinness World Records for the most ridiculous questions asked by one person, on a single website, else decided to become a contestant on the television program Jeopardy?
A profound sounding question, @Greatest I am.
Yes, you can help but do evil. No question about it.
It's called "responsibility."
My current understanding (and it keeps changing and evolving over the last several decades), is that ego is the source of all evil. Ego is the false self -- a physical universe construct with which we interface with physical reality. Ego is the essence of evil in so many ways. Not only do we get murder, theft and betrayal from ego, but we also get the victim, the suicide perpetrator, and the self-righteous church goer who would not have anything to do with sinners. These are all manifestations of evil.
Evil is attachments to physicality (like possessions, both physical and mental). Evil is the sense of importance of things and states of being (like pride).
You say we must do good and evil? Absolutely not.
Even the supreme good of the Pharisees was considered evil, because it was the relative good of a physical dichotomy. It was a self-righteous good of ego for ego's sake.
True good (true righteousness for righteousness' sake) is without blemish. It is perfection, like the Buddhist paramitas -- a true, one-sided coin of perfect goodness. We must do only paramita good. This is the good of creation and everlasting life.
Let me give you an example: The confidence of true "faith" is that which allows miracles to happen. It is perfect confidence without even the tiniest spot of doubt. I have been there.
When Peter stepped out of his storm-tossed boat onto the Sea of Galilee to stand before his master, he had given up the reason and reasonableness of mortal ego. There was no room for doubt in his perfect confidence. The moment doubt returned, he began to sink. That doubt was evil, because it was part of the trap of willful turning away from the spiritual wholeness of God.
It took me a lifetime to understand this much. And after all of the miracles, I still have so very far to go.Yes. I see that you do.
You say "Yes, you can help but do evil. No question about it."
I will assume that you are not speaking of yourself.
Care to show how you would refute this scenario.
The last time you competed for a job let's say. You may have won but created a loser of the one who did not get the work. He would see evil in this because if he has a long string of loses and cannot find someone to beat out for a job, he will eventually die.
You could have done the empathic or kind thing and let him win but then you would be the loser and if you continued to do this you would be the one to eventually die.
You have to compete and win and create a loser and thus do evil from his POV or you will die. You like all who want to survive must do evil.
If you accept this as true, then your statement above hints that someone has beaten this system. Please show how.
Regards
DL
I have it that the ego interprets the body. All bodies excepting the difference between male and female are the same. My body does not hate any other body. Identities are created as interpretations of the mind. A religious Identity and a science identity interpret the same phenomenon in different ways. I am a preacher. I am a scientist. Both bodies are the same. Identities often do not agree. Identities often hate each other.
Identities are created to accomplish objectives. Firemen fight fires.
I have one body. I can have many identities each to accomplish different objectives. My identities can hate my body. My identities can hate others.
In so far as I can tell my body hates no one.OP,you ask this question as though everyone agrees on what evil is.It would be clearer if we had a consensus on that.
Seems to me that evil depends upon time,place,and circumstance.An interrogator in Nam would inject amphetamines to keep his"subject"awake and aware of the pain he inflicted...The interrogator came home with medals and ribbons on his chest.
Same scenario but this time change the place to Dallas Texas and the interrogator gets the electric chair as a demented serial killer.
Human sacrifice,pedophilia,incest,even torture are perfectly acceptable or a horrendous crime depending on...Time,Place,and Circumstance...always.So,what is evil?Is it an absolute...very unlikely.
From a solipsist point of view,we can not agree on whether anyone else even exists,let alone what evil is and when it should be condemned or not.
Damn,I wrote a whole hub huh?Gotta quit these Espresso double shots every morning Ha!Good thoughts. One must make his own decisions about what evil is. For me, it is sin, for you, maybe not. And vice versa, all the way around. We are dealt with according to our faith/standard. In a somewhat nutshell. And that agrees with my spirit. The bible, as well, agrees.
How do you know what sin is? Sin is only identified by the law and apart from the law sin is not charged to anyone's account. See Romans. The 613 laws dealt with sin, and as we cannot invent new laws we cannot invent new sins (which Christians spend a lot of time doing) for which there is no law identified. Thus we are free to live by our good conscience and need not be concerned by anybody's opinion on what constitutes sin. We truely are free and do not need to be bound up with worrying about sin.
You, in a sense, said what I said. Are you so caught up in verbiage, that you cannot receive the message?
Genaea
You agree with the bible?
You think human sacrifice and a genocidal God are good?
Give your pathetic head a shake.
Regards
DLIf you study, you realize that the word does not stop there. He showed us our just desserts for sin, then he sent a perfect lamb to right all your wrong because of faith in him. Sounds pretty good to me. The genocide was the Pharoh killing boys because he was trying to stop Jesus from coming? You mean that?
Eh, genocide. You know, the great flood.
God hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he could flex his holy muscles and kill children was just a worm up to his use of genocide. Just as immoral but not quite as good, ----- evil that is.
Regards
DLOoooohhh!! You're talking OLD old. What we deserve as a result of disobedience. Yes, he had some points to prove. Why don't you write him a stern letter. Then, obey. I mean, what else is there? You can't even see God. How can you fight him? His word was standing then, all those ages ago. His words stands forever. You don't have to. But I'm doing it. First, believed and then, asked for help from a heart that said, "please?" then believed some more. I read the bible because I was raised in the church and I saw it work for so many! Faith opens the door for seeing it with your own eyes/heart.
Yes and your evil heart says that genocide against mankind is good.
You just keep following that policy and God will enjoy giving your ilk to Satan.
Regards
DLYou keep repeating those phrases, which have no power, and I will keep repeating the ones that do.
Keep doing so. Your immorality does my job of showing people how immoral Christianity is.
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
Regards
DLI know we crossed this path before. Maybe the all-knowing God, not wanting to make puppets, but giving free will; knew that his children would disobey. He knew that some would not listen. He made the plan to forgive from the beginning. But first, needed the foundation, "See Child for yourself? I knew you would not listen." type thing. Not evil. Choice between.
Oh gosh. So those who disagree with you are hell bound? That's been done to death. You might try to find some new material.
Cheaptrick
I agree evil is hard to define and is objective and for this O P a definition is not necessary.
Now. Can you help but do evil?
Regards
DL
Where do people get the isea that to sin is to be evil?
In my mind ... I see evil as being void of anything which is good.We all have the capacity to do evil however we also have the capacity to choose between doing good and doing evil.
If people are sitting down at a movie theater and someone shows up with firearms they have the capacity and the freedom not to harm these people.
If friends come together and one or more decides to rob a store people have the choice not to participate.True, but some people are told not to do evil because they believe they'll receive their reward in heaven, while others just use their brains and figure it out themselves. Huge difference.
Frankly Troubled Man, I'm wondering where this figuring it out for one's self comes from because we aren't born with?
We aren't born with beliefs in gods or would know what their moral and ethical expectations were, either.
Both are developed over time along with the person's personal and biological development. If one is taught how to use logic, reason and rationale, they are quite capable and able to figure it out themselves.
Are you saying you never developed these skills?Unlike your understanding of logic it is still based on human understanding and humans have never been perfect so you keep believing in flawed beings.
I'm not interested in perfection other than how my margaritas and martinis are made.
I don't "believe" in flawed beings, either, because I have no idea what that means.
But, I can see by your response here that you have adequately answered my question, anyways. Thanks.
S S.
" I'm wondering where this figuring it out for one's self comes from because we aren't born with?"
Look again for the first time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA
Regards
DL
Greatest I am,
I appreciate the link to the supposedly cognitive thinking of newborns but frankly what these people were doing I honestly have to say it looks like nothing but a bunch of malarkey.
I saw no practical applications of real cognitive thinking and in fact if one chooses another authority I have read in the past children can be influenced by a number of factors one including color.
If we were to go on the assertion that the child is born with a moral compass how is it that a child capable of walking around would walk up to a newborn in their crib and smack them in the face probably repeatedly if they weren't stopped?
If a child understands the difference between right and wrong why is it that parents have to watch that the child does not dart out into the street where they clearly run the risk of being killed?
Born with morality Not Even.It is a survival trait.
Can you not fathom how it is better to survival if we cooperate instead of compete?
Regards
DLI've never seen nor heard of such a thing. Why can't you come up with real examples rather than just making them up?
Morality has nothing to do with darting out onto the street. That's just plain silly.You have never seen a baby beat another baby, til the baby squeals??? Right/wrong has everything to do with running into the street. But the other scenario is all about morality.
Is that a daily event in your home?
LOL!I'm guessing you're directing your comments towards me-PLEASE DON'T TELL ME WHAT I'VE SEEN how the heck do you are any of those who have not walked were I walk know anything about what's seen. I've see babies strike each other in the face while on the floor mad that the other child is playing with there toy. You want someone else to tell you the same thing contact-(Judge Judy and ask her about a niece whom she loves having done what I said).
People have to stop thinking for other people especially when they don't know.Perhaps, those babies are spawns of the devil and were not born Christians?
Would a baby born into a Christian family act that way?For someone who likes to think of themselves as enlightened your comments call into question how much common sense do you really understand. For people with common sense, recognizes spirit teaching is a process.
Actually, people with common sense recognize anything to do with "spirits" is nonsense.
And no, I don't think of myself as enlightened."no, I don't think of myself as enlightened"
Finally one thing we can agree on.Satan has worked his deception on you and the spirits you follow are evil.
Regards
DL
If you want to serve and worship a deity that don't give a flying leap about you then you certainly have my blessings.
God has no need of worship. or anything you can give. If you need to adore an imaginary construct then by all means do. Just do not expect to become brighter or develop good morals from your genocidal God than you already have. Good old human sacrifice. Yum, yum.
Regards
DL
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