If "No," would you do it if you knew that you would be resurrected three days later?
I guess we're talking about Jesus here. Thousands died the same painful death of crucifixion so in that sense his death was not remarkable. Those others could only hope in a distant future resurection as any comfort, but Jesus knew he was going to gain a great prize: humanity redeemed. So if I was in the same situation as you specify, then I hope logic and precognition of an immediate resurection (comparitively speaking) would would overcome fear and make the decision a no brainer.
Considering the argumentative nature of most of the people here I doubt you'll get an honest response from anyone.
That sounds very much like the premise in "The Last Temptation of Christ"
Well lets see. You must be talking about whether I would guide my rocket ship filled with anti-matter in to an asteroid for earth so I could save the world and in particular my own kids and grand-kids..
So the answer is obviously yes I would.
Other than that,, were I to believe in a god that gives eternal punishment I probably would too. But I wouldn't respect nor love such a god. I mean, if someone is not redeemable at all the just thing to do would be let them die and vanish from the records of existence, so to speak. Probably what happens now anyway, to everyone.
In evolution, the species that can not be redeemed and can not redeem itself vanishes. So why should a gods punishment be harsher than that?
If I knew I was going to be resurrected three days later? Well if I believed it it might be a bonus, but at the same time, what's the point then?
I really would not have made any sacrifice, would I? Not that I desperately want to, mind you. But I wouldn't want others saying I sacrificed my life for them. In effect, in agreeing to suffer for a short time I would won myself everlasting life. Not sure what that would be like some where other than earth.
I can tell you one thing: If all I do is sing hymns and worship the lord, I think I would rather die and vanish. I can see loving god if god is a nice guy with half a brain, but if he needs to be worship all the time there is something wrong with his basic character.. Who raised this guy anyway?
Oh he raised himself. That explains it I suppose.
But as it happens I don't believe such a god exists, and If we want to we can probably thank nature for that,.Not that it cares. It might just some of us feel better. Always nice if there is something to thank or to blame.
In fact, one of the traits the big three is that their god can, does and in fact demands all the credit for the good things that happen. But he takes no blame for the bad things.
Were I to meet him I'd have to ask him why it is that some of us humans can think more logically than he can? Any conscious being that creates a world where everything has to kill and eat everything else in some way, just to survive, can't be forgiven for the injustice it has brought to it's creation. The pain and suffering and the injustice it has created by design, only so we should worship it so it will grant us longer or ever lasting life?
What was it Dante said? Better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.
I know, I know. God rules hell, not the devil. But the sentiment is a good one anyway. Better to fight the tyrant than become the slave, even though that could mean eternal torture at the hands of a mad man,
I really am happy I don't believe that stuff. But what amazes me is the believers are likely to say that my take on god is all wrong. Yet if I were to tell them about a king who did exactly and demanded exactly what their vision of god does, they would condemn such a man and join me in freeing ourselves from the tyrant.
It is astonishing. Does it mean that the promise of ever lasting life is so great that believers are willing to see black as white just as long as it gets them the gold?
But you really have to believe it or it won't happen.
Yeah... It won't happen. Remember. You have to die first. Some how I don't trust promises like that. You'll be dead, so what will you care if never wake up? Maybe it's just me, but unless I get ever lasting life without having to die first, and receive my perfect body now please, this one is feeling the ware and tear of age, I don't see the point of taking the believers word for it. Sounds like a scam.
One thing we can agree on there aguasilver, that was the truest statement I have ever heard for why most of us are atheists.
Thanks Slarty! I agree 100%
Thanks.. But actually, nothing in that post is not already in one of my hubs. Creating another with the same content would have been redundant.
Your question appeals to the higher self which is noble,but until one gets close[and I mean close]to the reality of the full experience and depth of pain,one cannot honestly answer this question.
My heart and spirit say yes...but I have so many pain receptors I,and most others IMO,would back out as soon as that first bamboo sliver was inserted under a fingernail.It seems the body does not share the nobility of the heart.
The trick is to go to the tipping point, after which you can't back out. Then accept it and sit out the ride. But you are right, most people just don't know how they would react to an event that could mean their life in place of another. Many do back out every day and there is nothing they can do about it.
However, most of the time when someone does run into a burning building to save another they are not really thinking anymore, they are reacting in the only way they can at that point.
Most people we would consider heroes don't see themselves that way.,
I think my guy said it this way "Those who seek to save their life, lose it" and generally if someone thinks themselves too important, they will back away from anything that may put them at risk, and in doing so, never really live.
Yes. Life is risk. But I don't know that a lot of people think themselves too important. I think it is the contrary. They think themselves unable and unimportant, but they have a good survival instinct, never the less.
Some are happy calling 911. They did their bit. Others think someone else must have called 911 and that makes it ok for them to continue on their way. Best not to tie up the lines with hundreds of calls about the same thing. They walk away happy about themselves too.
But some could not live with themselves if they did not run in to the burning building. It is not a question of selflessness. The alternative to not doing it is guilt and remorse. So it must be done.
Each individual has their own reaction according to their personal conditioning. There is nothing they can do about that, it's their nature.
And as far as I can see it is a good thing that there is so much diversity in human nature. Having a hundred bystanders all unable to stop themselves from running in the building at the same time would be disastrous. Think of all the families that would suffer if the building collapsed.
So while everyone has limitations, they are not all the same limitations, and most of the time things that need doing get done one way or the other, and someone will just have to go in and try to save someone.
It's a good balance.
If there were an eternal punishment, yes, I would, regardless of a resurrection.
The chances are that every believer alive today could face death for their beliefs.
Yes, I would make that trade, if it were Gods will, and Christ did make the trade, because it was Gods will.
In a much smaller way, the believer makes the trade every day, because when someone submits their will to Gods will, we do tend to suffer at times.
That's a laugh considering the population of believers vs nonbelievers and the fact that history shows 1900 years of homicidal actions by believers towards not just nonbelievers but people who weren't prefect believers or people who they just needed an excuse to get out of the way using the law "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"
"we do tend to suffer at times." self inflicted.
This is what I find strange, you would make this sacrifice for your beliefs, for me, its other people, its humans that I would make that sacrifice for. My beliefs make no difference, they are totally unimportant. My friends, my family, my son, and everyone else who makes their lives possible and good, they are what makes a sacrifice like ones life worth it. For those people it is even worth 'saving' those who I don't like, respect, or think worthy.
The only problem is that I would need the freedom to yell 'no, no, no, please stop! arrrghhhh!' and whatever else while in the suffering phase before death. I couldn't do it in say silence or without physically struggling against the pain, this is pretty much an involuntary reaction to pain.
We already know to sacrifice our lives for our family, but my beliefs, which you discount, are what would stop me trying and possibly succeeding, in killing those who would kill me because I would not recant my belief.
Christ could have called all heavenly forces to bear on those who sought to kill Him, true sacrifice is dying when you have no need to, in order to give others, even those who are trying to kill you, the chance of redemption.
My family are thankfully already redeemed, my concern is for those who are not, whether they be nice folk, or people who would seek to kill me.
Are there really that many people threatening to kill you if you don't recant your beliefs?
Not currently, but the century is young and we do look to be heading for the time when it will start happening more.
I am fortunate to live in a moderate (Sunni) Muslim country, where the mix is very congenial to unity with each other, and in fact the Muslim leadership will stamp out any radical sections that try to impose severe forms of Islam, but there are plenty of places where Christians are being killed, just for being Christian, and I suspect that as the bible tells us it will increase as iniquity grows (and iniquity is definitely growing) so, much as I think that God will protect His people, there are no guarantees in life.
Should we ever get to the Antichrist taking power, and the 'number' becoming a requirement, then yes it is highly likely that belief will become something folk are killed for.
BTW, the original question isn't would you die painfully to save your family, it was would you die painfully to save everyone. Sorta different. In the end, you think your family is 'saved' and this makes me wonder if you really would die a painful death to save everyone, even those you claim you don't kill because of your belief only, when those you actually care about are already 'saved'. Seems disingenuous.
Actually you brought up the family aspect, my original statement made no reference to my family, I did say:
"My family are thankfully already redeemed, my concern is for those who are not, whether they be nice folk, or people who would seek to kill me."
That does not preclude that my family may not be killed for faith, or just by circumstance, my son ministers in Harlem, NYC, to street kids, children of gang members and such, so we always stand the chance that any one of us may be killed in the course of our works, and I was liable to be working in Nigeria, where certainly Christians are being killed, and where white believers are at risk of kidnap and death, so I think you miss the point, death has no mystery or fear for us, whereas we (believers) do have concerns for those who are not redeemed, and just a hour ago I learned of the death of a good secular friend of mine, and much as I will miss him, my greater concern is what his condition is now.
Now as to your confusion over what I said:
"even those you claim you don't kill because of your belief only, "
It is natural (literally) to kill those who seek to kill you, and in normal circumstances permitted by (world) law to do so in self defence, and with no spiritual problem, but that scenario changes once the AC has been identified and starts putting the screws on believers, because those executions will be for refusing to accept the world system and renounce Christ, and in those circumstances our witness by refusing both 'escape routes' is what will bring those, who have bought into the world system, to faith, or at least some of them.
For the world would call us crazy; to choose death over renunciation, and that is what will break the dark spiritual hold over them.
If just one sinner gets saved as a result, then the death will have been worthwhile.
Christ died for ALL, not just those who came to faith, but obviously those who believe in Him can understand this better.
I love how you can use a fantasy ideology to defend a fantasy ideology. Sin and the idea of dying for your belief in Jesus and all that.
Thanks, but it sorrows me that you can ignore it.
Seeing as Jesus when prophesying of the tribulation about to hit Israel in Matt 23 & 24 said that the troubles of those times would be worse than ever before and never to be matched again, and seeing that they were fulfilled between 70AD and 135AD, why do you think that there is going to be some worldwide persecution of Christinity? Historically it is Christianity that has persecuted Jews, Muslims, and their own populations. Not that I believe there is ever going to be a single World Antichrist but if there was, I would guess that it would be someone from the Church.
Ok...now you add preterist to the universalism title... interesting, did you get those replies I had from my list? or have any answers?
If I could be resurrected, yes. It'd make a helluva book deal. And after giving birth to my two daughters, I have a reasonable pain threshhold.
It would depend on how I "knew" I would be resurrected. If it was some dude with an old book promising me I would come back, then hell no. If God actually came down (and not just a voice in my head or something, because that would most likely be delusion or too much beer or something), like as in, he showed up and did some magic—turned my dog into a dragon, maybe took me on a trip through time and stuff, you know, so I knew he wasn't some charlatan B.S.ing me, then sure, I'd do it.
No in both cases. Pain is something I don't deal well with and resurrection could be just as painful.
It is doubtful that many people can understand the love of God including me. God recognizes how hateful, evil, lying, stealing torturing mankind is which gives cause for condemnation and knowing all of this God still chose not to wipe mankind out of existence.
The sacrifice that Jesus did is a love that many of us will probably never understand for he chose to lay down his life in order that others may live even when those whom he has died for were/are sinners.
Uh, I think you meant to say that he chose not to wipe mankind out of existence AGAIN.
The first time he pretty much wiped the slate clean as I recall. Just a couple of guys, a boat, and some critters (they left the dinosaurs behind though, apparently. Probably too big for the boat).
If any were left behind them they weren't wiped out. I find it interesting that we as people overlook the fact that our behavior is such that we can k_iss off even a benevolent God.
See, that's what makes me laugh. My comment was in response to THIS post from you:
So in his love, he drowned hundreds of thousands of people to death. Drowning is a pretty brutal way to die—they use it to torture people all the time (yeah, the evil torturing humans learned a trick from the loving, evil torturing God I guess).
I find it funny that you can count the fact that he saved one family as merciful. And for what? So he could torment them some more. He's like a cat playing with a mouse or something.
Yes, so torturing humans with various plagues, pestilences, and floods isn't enough, so, just for kicks, he had his son nailed to a cross to die a torturous death. Oh look, more torture from the God of love and mercy. But of course this all makes perfect sense if you think about it.
Um. I guess.
You complain about humans being torturers and evil, and yet the God you worship is the God of torture, death and pain. Which is great. I seriously don't care what you believe, and I'm happy you can find comfort in worshiping a God who can do all of that stuff. For me, I'd rather find a God that doesn't delight in torturing the beings HE created, making them purposefully flawed and putting ETERNAL TORTURE as the cost of not following the stories about him. Which, for us and everyone not from the middle east, means believing stuff written on sheep skin during the bronze age in a desert no where near us, and before anyone had even conceived of bacteria or the fact that the Earth wasn't the center of everything. Enjoy your religion, but don't expect me or too many others to buy the "God of love" thing.
I find it humorous that you feel the endless torture, depravity of keeping people enslaved by human beings is a condition which should have continued rather than killing those who are unjustly killing the innocent and the weak through torture, pain and slavery-that is laughable.
Mankind arrogantly, constantly stands in judgment of others while completely ignoring all the evil that man does. Someone once said in order to communicate you have to talk to people in a language they understand, during the early stages of man debate and litigation weren't their strong points and so while we completely ignore these people stoning other people we're quick to point the finger at God.
We may think we are good people by not administering any discipline when it comes to our children but by not doing so often the child wonders if the parent actually cares about them. In our willingness to make ourselves seem better than others some parents refused to tell their children about the evils in the world believing they are protecting the child only to find that when a child gets old enough and enters into the world they fall into the traps for which they were told nothing about, I would say that would entitle God to point the finger at us.
Even though he wasn't really dead he was resurrected. That's not a sacrifice nor is it love.
what's to understand?
It should be remembered that immediately prior to Christ's death, He realised He had been abandoned completely by God, for the first time in His existence He was separated from God.
That is when faith needs to take over.
We (believers) face that scenario also at times, and like Christ (and every other human) need to make the decision... our will or Gods.
"He realised He had been abandoned completely by God" Until, of course, that you realize Jesus is supposedly God. In that case, how do you abandon yourself? Unless you don't believe Jesus is Lord.
"our will or Gods." until you realize God doesn't exist and the will you follow is neither God's nor your own.
Not really, in the "Last Temptation of Christ" Jesus is hanging on the cross with those doubts and immediately prior to His death, God provides the "evidence" and NOT faith to his salvation. He lets Jesus see what his life would be like if He decides to not allow himself to be killed and it is this vision that makes Jesus decide.
Enjoyed the film, but hardly scriptural or relevant.
And yet, Kazantzakis argues in favor of Jesus and his struggle. This book should be an argument that supports Christians.
"The central thesis of the book is that Jesus, while free from sin, was still subject to fear, doubt, depression, reluctance, and lust. Kazantzakis argues in the novel's preface that by facing and conquering all of man's weaknesses, Jesus struggled to do God's will, without ever giving in to the temptations of the flesh. The novel thus powerfully advances the argument that, had Jesus succumbed to any such temptation, especially the opportunity to save himself from the cross, his life would have held no more significance than that of any benign philosopher." wiki
Well put my lad. You have an excellent grasp of the humanity of Jesus. You testify to his divinity as well. I see you are the bearer of the good news. Your sins have been cancelled by the work he did on the cross. Your garments are washed clean by the blood of the lamb!
Preach it, brother.
How can you say that when you told me it was "hardly scriptural or relevant"? - you sure changed that tune fast.
I was 'amening' how Rebel Yell turned your post into a commendation for you preaching the word.
Thought that was quite clever!
Now if I ever DID hear you preaching the word.....
I have no idea where you get the notion I was preaching? All I did was understand that Kazantzakis reasonably and rationally showed Jesus to be human when he was alive and to show He was just as capable of experiencing human emotions as the rest of us. Kazantzakis goes on to show that Jesus was able to rise above the emotions that were pulling him away from his sense of duty and mission.
This book and movie are mostly condemned by Christians and banned in many places, yet it is one of best arguments in favor of Christs place as a redeemer.
I can recognize a good argument from a bad one even if I don't agree with either one, and it certainly doesn't suggest I'm preaching.
See that? The good brother was preaching like a house on fire and he didn't even know it. It reminds me of old Balam. He was going astray for greed and the next thing he knew, the dumb ass he was riding on started speaking the word of God to him.
Well, God should understand mankind, then, He created them. LOL!
Of course, wiping out mankind AGAIN, would only serve to prove his failure at creating a world with humans.
Just having a God that creates a failure and not knowing it would be a failure and then deciding it was a failure shows that God is either: Not a God, A Stupid God, an Evil God, or a creation of man whose qualities are said to be all of the above.
Why would that change anything I have said? And who is to say I don't already have something that makes me seriously ill.
It almost sounds like you hope I get cancer (sarcasm).
I sincerely hope you do not, for if you did, you would be faced with either killing the cancerous cells, or letting them live, thereby condemning your whole body to destruction.
If that is a tough choice, then maybe you will understand what God was doing when He removed 'cancers' from His creation in order to save the whole.
Why would I be bothered with killing cancerous cells? And if God was "removing cancerous cells" as you say, I guess he wasn't smart enough to create a world that couldn't get the kind of cancer that would require him to kill innocent people to remove the cancer... and if he is a God he wouldn't need to do such a thing in order to remove just the cancer, (like when he turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt).... you make your own God sound so human. You're an apologist, making up excuses for why God does something that you don't understand yourself and then digging yourself in a bigger hole.
Errr.... maybe because you wanted to keep the healthy cells alive?
But of course, that is also your choice, however you would be making a wrong choice if you chose to ignore cancerous cells in your body, but you obviously are not proficient at calculating which are the right choices to make. So be it.
Cancer is a by product of wrong living, it's the cancerous cells going into rebellion and starting to spread over the healthy cells. We make cancer thrive by our own actions, and equally we can stop cancer if we redress our wrong lifestyle.
You really do not understand this at all do you....
We remove the cancerous cells so that the whole body survives, once the cancer has been stopped, the body will restore itself, unless the 'patient' continues with the unhealthy lifestyle, in which case the cancer can return.
If you had any understanding of spiritual aspects, you would understand the analogy, but I suspect you lack spiritual discernment and it seems, from your comments, common sense.
Perhaps that is because He made us in His own image?
But in fact I am attempting to explain this to you in terms you can understand, hence the humanistic analogies.
Yes I am an apologist, a Christian Apologist, thank you for correctly identifying me, but I think you group me in far better apologists company than I merit:
Christian apologetics (Greek: ἀπολογία, "verbal defence, speech in defence") is a field of Christian theology which aims to present a rational basis for the Christian faith, defend the faith against objections, and attempt to expose the flaws of other world views.
Christian apologetics has taken many forms over the centuries, starting with Paul the Apostle in the early church and Patristic writers such as Origen, Augustine of Hippo, Justin Martyr, and Tertullian, then continuing with writers such as Thomas Aquinas and Anselm of Canterbury during Scholasticism, Blaise Pascal before and during the Age of Enlightenment, in the modern period through the efforts of many authors such as G. K. Chesterton and C. S. Lewis, and in contemporary times through the work of figures such as Alvin Plantinga and William Lane Craig.
Apologists have based their defense of Christianity on historical evidence, philosophical arguments, scientific investigation, and arguments from other disciplines.
Are you sure you understand the term?
(to quote 'The Princess Bride character "I don't think you understand the meaning of this word")
I do, and I hopefully make a good job of explaining it to folk, not making apologies (which is a different thing) but being a Christian Apologist, which is trying to explain things to those who lack understanding.
As for hole digging.... I will leave that to you, and let the readers to decide.
I understand the term Christian Apologist, The Cancer analogy (which is still wrong) and the idea that your idea of God makes God... not very God-like.
The cancer analogy doesn't work for humanity, because human life as well as all life seeks one very important thing above all else and will do anything to attain it, Survival. Understand that first and foremost. Cancer, however, is not a rebellious cell, it is a cell that has been damaged and no longer knows how to stop growing. Take our normal cells, they have a life span and they regenerate and multiply for a certain number of times and then they completely die. Cancer cells do not or can not, they are in essence immortal.
Back to the "human cancer"... bad people, criminals, most of these people are desperately trying to survive in a world that has abused, and neglected and ignored them. They are desperate and angry and the law and respect for authority vanishes in their mind. There are even other criminals who are so messed up they have lost all hope for being recoverable and have lost their empathy (socio and psycho pathology). However, your Bible has a much stricter and more oppressive view towards humanity and squeezes out many traits humanity cannot lose. It's very tyrannical.
Back to the Apologist term, I totally understand what it means and use it loosely since you are not a scholar. I use it in the sense that you will try and explain away any inconsistency pointed out in your religion and in the Bible.
Twenty years study does not a scholar make, at least not in your eyes.
Anyhow, we agree to differ, may you be richly blessed by God with a full understanding of who Jesus Christ is, through the power of the Holy Spirit.
I'm tickled by you. You talk pretty big for a guy on a Vespa. Are you mad at God because he made you a failure? Only an evil God would make you ride a scooter. Come back around when you get a truck or a Harley.
It's not a Vespa. It's a racing lambretta scooter. The same one that almost killed me In 2006, probably was the fastest thing in the state at the time. My newest scooter is also 1972 Lambretta Jet200. I hate Harley's... I also hate cars and trucks (aka cages).
So rather than questioning my statement or attacking my words, you choose the cowards way of attacking my character?
Why you want to play head games? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of all understanding. You don't understand nothing, milk toast. Step off!
If it refers to Jesus look at the masses, looks like everyone is suffering an eternal punishment anyway. So what was it all for?
The saved think they're saved, but are they? Are they really?
Major misinterpretation of what the dying and resurrection was all about, especially if no-one is following in his footsteps. Perhaps he did it for nothing. Are the saved actually walking around as Jesus is? Nope. Well not the Christian Right Fundamentalists. But they think they are. Delusional perhaps? Misguided? The good ol US of A is going down the gurgler, suffering left right and center. Something's gone a tad skewed in the saved department.
I think you are on to something, and if you read the book of revelations. The rapture was to occur during the lifetime of the authors of revelation. That's also around the time Romans were killing Christians big time.... 250 years before it became the national religion of The Roman Empire.
Of course I'm an atheist so I don't believe in any of it.
The rapture is a load of hooey. However, I do wish someone would press the button anyway and see the fundamentalist right sucked up into their heavenly abode.
I just wish they had respect for others. If they really were Christians they would be but saying they are Christian is really just fear and indoctrination induced lip service. They barely know what it is that the Bible even says much less what it means to be a Christian. That pretty much goes for every Christian I have ever met.
A breath of fresh air was had when the Christian Left got their act together and started to go counter to the fundamentalists. Every now and then they go a bit off center - which is on par with the world at large so can't be too hard on them. But they are really sick and tired of fundamentalists bastardizing the entire Christian faith. At least the Christian Left have a bit of common decency and more intelligence.
New Living Translation
Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world."
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