How do you interpret the second death in the book of Revelations?

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   SwordofManticorEposted 11 years ago

   How do you interpret the second death in the book of Revelations?
   
   It is found 4 times in Revelations and as I understand it, it is symbolic for the second desruction of the temple and the Jewish religion a second time at the hands of Rome. The first time was by babylon. It is the spiritual death of the Jews for God as I see it. Any takers?

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   JThomp42posted 11 years ago

   The "First" death then, is the physical death that each person dies on this earth - a physical, but TEMPORARY death from which everyone will be resurrected. Those who are righteous will be resurrected to everlasting life and those who are wicked will be resurrected for the judgment and the "Second Death", believed by nearly ALL to be a physical death also, but this time the death is presumed to be PERMANENT!
   
   So, both "Deaths", the First and the Second, are physical deaths - according to present day theology. The ONLY difference, most Christians believe, is that the "First" is temporary and the "Second" is permanent (and its method of accomplishment more hideous).
   "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body...Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is spiritual."
   1 Cor 15:44,46 (the "natural" body is first - and the "spiritual" body is second.)
   Since this is the ONLY other type of Death (other than a physical death) that is spoken of in the Bible, at least up until the book of Revelation, wouldn't this logically--and chronologically, be termed --The "Second" Death --- a Second type of Death?
   
   If so, is this synonymous with THE "Second Death" spoken of in Revelation? If not, then since the different types of Deaths appear to be numbered in the Bible, what number is this Death? And where does it fit in the scheme of things?

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      JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      2 Peter 2:4
      For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Tarturus was a prison for the rebeliouse Greek pagan gods such as the titans, and hades is where the Greeks believed all the dead went. If you did more study, you might learn something for once.

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      JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Gehenna is a place on earth. Read this:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Gehenna was a garbage dump. Imagine you being a pharisee and proud, and then some guy called Jesus comes around telling you that your body will be dumped there instead of at Hebron. The burial place of the royals and honourable religious leaders.

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      JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      SOM and DH? Do you consider name calling to be Christ like?

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      It is about as christ like as your belief of eternal torture.

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I haven't called you any names J. However, you mentioned Matt 5:22 and the inference that anyone who calls his brother a fool is going to hell. Well looks like Jesus is in trouble: Matthew 15:16
      ‘Are you still so dull?’ Jesus asked them.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Well I did call J a coward. Didnt Christ call the selfrighteous pharisees the same?

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I believe he did.
      I like your comment about Pharisees & garbage dump. It was Gehenna that the bodies of the criminals were thrown. Christians take the second half of Matt  5:29 literally but not the first, that's why there are no maimed Christian

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   tlmcgaa70posted 11 years ago

   4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
   
   5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
   
   6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
   
   according to scripture there will be a period of one thousand years, a time when CHRIST will reign on this earth with those faithful to HIM, those who died in HIS name, never having worshiped the beast or its image. this is the first resurrection. everyone else who are dead remain dead. then at the time of the second resurrection, , that is when all are resurrected from the graves (all are dead at this time), and all are judged. those who are not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire...that is the second death.

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   Disappearingheadposted 11 years ago

   I think we need to first understand what the lake of fire is. It certainly isn't the pagan hell myth that the Catholic Church grafted into Church belief and perpetuated by evangelicals (a myth unknown to the Jews, hence Jesus and Paul never taught it). Time and time again throughout scripture it is God that is associated with fire; he is a consuming fire. So this lake of fire, is God himself performing a consuming activity on anyone being cast in. Now Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire; that is tested. Paul states in 1 Corinthians 3 that everyone's works will be tested with fire. Those works that do not measure up (their life choices and actions that God deems as sin), will be consumed but nevertheless they themselves shall be saved.
   
   Thus I see the second death as that activity where God burns out the sin from a person's life in his lake of fire, aka himself, and through that activity they will receive ultimate reconciliation and salvation. The second death is the death of sin inside the person.
   
   It seems ironic to me that Christians will emotionally sing "Lord let your fire fall", or "Purify my heart.....refiner's fire....", yet they will walk out the door and tell their neighbour God will use that same fire to burn them for eternity or utterly consume them.
   
   An addendum, is that Revelation claims all whose names are not in the book of life will experience the lake of fire, yet oddly, nowhere in the bible does it state how to get your name written in there in the first place. We know David's enemies were in the book of life because he said so in Psalm 69. So to say that only bible believing spirit filled born again evangelical Christians (or alternatively Catholics if you're a Catholic) are in the book of life is merely an unfounded speculative Christian claim.
   
   I'll put my soapbox away now.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      this belief contradicts scripture, which says that GOD gave those who reject HIM over to the lusts of their hearts and blinds them lest they see and HE must heal and save them. if GOD had planned on saving everyone from the get go, why  do that?

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      @Tim, why do you hate your neighbor so much?

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      its TLM...and i dont, i accept GODs Word as truth. GOD is righteous and all HE does is. HE is sovereign. im not the one who makes the rules, HE is and i abide by them.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You are a product of your belief system, and if you believe that Love will allow most of its creation be eternallt tortured. It says alot about who you are.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      yes it does. it says im not wearing blinders or interpreting scripture to please myself or justify my lifestyles. you are free to believe whatever makes you comfortable. but it wont save you

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      3 reasons why hell makes no sense:
      1 Jesus said do good to your enemies and God's love is everlasting.
      2 Sin in finite life doesn't warrant eternal punishment; eye for eye...
      3 97% of people in hell means Jesus' mission was a complete failure.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      it helps to look at things from GODs perspective and not human ones. you cant pick and choose what part of the Word you wish to believe, its either all or none. and no it doesnt mean anything of the sort.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      greed DH. Those who believe in hell, don't understand that what they believe as eternal in regards to punishment, is "age".

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      tlm, you pick and choose. You choose verses that tickle your ears for hell belief. You have no desire to belief what the writers intended.
      Read 1 Timothy 2:3-5, Isaiah 46:10-12, 1 Corinthians 15:22, 2 Chronicles 33:1-6, and string them all together.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Matthew 5:29
       And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It is Gehenna, not hell. Scripture suffers more from Christians than atheists.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I don't care what you say it is, there are over 55 verses in the Bible talking about hell. Am I to believe you or God? God! Where do you come up with your fantasies? We have proof in the Holy Bible.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I get it J, I know you dont want all to be saved. It is obvious, but FYI, there are over 600 verses in scipture that supports universal salvation.

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       Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       There are no verses in the bible talking about hell. There are verses talking about Sheol - the grave/unseen, Hades = Sheol, verses talking about Gehenna aka Ben Hinnom Valley or garbage dump, Tartarus - pagan myth in 2 Peter not written by Peter.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       THE BIG QUESTION: Then why did Christ have to go through hell for us to be saved?

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       DH, I have never met such arrogant ignorance like I have from this J guy. How many times has he asked the same question over and over about why did Jesus have to die and we have to suffer such stupidity.

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       Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       The idea that Christ descended into hell to be greeted by demons and Beelzebub himself is Christian fantasy. He died! He went to Sheol, the grave, the place where God told Abraham he'd REST with his fathers including Terah who worshipped idols.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Jesus talking:
       Matthew 5:22
       But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Tho

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Oh now I am going to hell for calling you stupid J? I bet the thought of that gives you great joy.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       No no one going to hell gives me any type of joy. We are to love one another and spread the good news of Jesus Christ to save people from hell. That is a ludicrous statement.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Ok, let me ask you this. If YOU were given the power to save all of those in the hell you believe in, would you save them?

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       SOM.. Your ego and arrogance overwhelms you.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I knew you couldnt answer that question, because it exposes the darkness and hatred you have for nonchristians.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       That statement is as idiotic as your question.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Not as idiotic as your belief of hell. I will answer it for you. YES!!! IN A HEART BEAT!!! I love all mankind including you. You use excuses to avoid hard questions, and it says alot about you.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I'm only avoiding RIDICULOUS questions.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       It is a good question. Would save someone from drowning if you could swim?

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       I am done with these spiritually contradicting ideas of yours. Therefore, I am done with this ridiculous nonexistence of hell. If there is no hell? Why must anyone be saved by the blood the Bible concentrates on in the New Testament? Think about it.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Of course you wouldn"t save that person. You would walk away and let them drown like the non good samaritan you are.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       No, we don't save people. We lead them to Jesus Christ who saves them. You have much malice to call yourself loving.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       That is a cowards responce J. If I saw an athiest drowning, I would jump in and save him, but you use selfrightious excuses not to.

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       JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

       SOM... You have a very low self esteem problem don't you?

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       SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Are you serious J? Real Christians dont worry about self esteem or pride for that matter.

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       Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       If a Christian saw someone on fire in a car wreck, they would try to pull them out and douse the flames. But if they failed, they think God will wilfully torch the person a second time in hell. So the Christian thinks he's more loving than God.

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       Basil the Greatposted 7 months agoin reply to this

       I know you wrote this 11 years ago, I wonder if this will get to you. What I find interesting is your comment about David's enemies being in the book of life in Psalm 69,

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   James-wolveposted 11 years ago

   I am not a Christian,but as being a reader of the Bible, I think the condemnation of The Second Death is for those who:
   1. Have missed out on the main 'prize' of the Bible, and
   2. Who have lived their lives with an attitude of unremitting and consistent evil, wickedness, and have lacked any vestige of mercy and compassion.
   
   Anyway,God or Allah or Jehovah loves us all unconditionally and wants the best for us.The repentence door is always open for us to return to him.I love Him and his messengers so much.I hope i didnt offend anyone .I love you all.
   Many Blessings.
   James.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Though, I disagree with you on many topics, your comment is alot less offensive than many Christian beliefs and theologies I have read recently.

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      James-wolveposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I really respect  all religions and creeds.It is true we disagree with each others on many topics but that doesnt mean we should take it on personal level.You are my friend and I respect your beliefs.

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   SwordofManticorEposted 11 years ago

   I know this a little off topic, but I am compelled to post it.  I have noticed recently the fascination some Christians have about the theology of hell. I recently called one of them a hypocrite for posting a question and deleting the answers that did not add up to his beliefs. One of the questions he posted was "Is hell real". I told him that the only reason why he asks these silly questions about hell is to gain more financial earnings with his hubs. He deleted the post and disabled answeres and comments. Preaching or asking questions about hell is profitable for him it seems. There is nothing more disgusting than a Christian that profits financially at the cost of billions who suffer eternally. He and people like him have what Christ calls the mammon spirit. Profiting at the cost of the displeasure of another. The world today is a reflection of him and his belief.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      that is why i dont listen to christian music or watch christian themed movies or read anything christian themed. i totally do not approve of using GOD to make money. i do believe in hell, but i wont argue. all r free to believe how they will

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I almost fell off my chair when all my answers and comments to the question "Is hell real?" were deleted. Are we living in medieval times  where some in the Church silence dissent?

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      i myself do not leave comments idly. i put my heart into them. i think them out. when they get deleted it makes me wonder why bother.

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      JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      tlm.... It is due to personal attacks and name calling which has no place on HubPages. Not directed toward you my friend. You always are very respectful.

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      Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Exactly. Deleting comments that people have taken care to write is just insulting.

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      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      it is only an insult or personal attack if you let it be one. otherwise they are just words.  always remember, you arent responsible for what others think, say, or do. only for yourself. GOD gave man choice. we should respect that.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      J, Why dide you ask eveyone the question "Is hell real"? What was the purpose of the question?

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      JThomp42posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      To see how many believed in universal salvation.... Not very many. This is why you are constantly debating with everyone you encounter.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      The numbers are growing and many are leaving the catholic traditions. I dont debate with believers of hell, only those who support and preach it. It will be like it was during the times of Paul and the apostels. Universal reconciliation of all.

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       Disappearingheadposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       The time is coming and now is where people will throw off the shackles of hell heresies. Those in the Church who call this enlightenment 'apostasy' will only find themselves left out in the cold.

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