Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?
Many blame Satan for the evils of this world even as his power to deceive all of us comes from God.
As the creator of Satan, many think that God deserves the blame as he knew what Satan would be because God knows everything in advance.
What is the greatest evil you can think of and who do you think is to blame for it?
Who is the greatest sinner, Satan or God?
I lean toward God as scriptures name him the Alpha and Omega which to me means the best and the worse. Also, scriptures have God saying not to place any other above him and I would be going against this by placing Satan above him in the category of the most evil. I do not want to break the first commandment.
Do you dare by putting Satan above God?
There's two conflicting views a theist can hold: everything originates, or emanates from God, putting him above Satan; or, Satan has existed eternity to counter the goodness that is God.
You should look up Gnosticism, it has an interesting take on the spawn of evil.
I happen to call myself a Gnostic Christian. I do not recall what their scriptures say on this issue. We tend not to read scriptures literally. Not even our own as they were just written to open dialog and not really point to any given God.
God, or better said, access to him is within each of us.
Care to refresh my memory in brief on the scripture you ar referring to?
The gist of what I read on gnosticism was from it's wiki page , but it says the material world was created by a demi-god, and because the demi-god is not perfect, evil inevitably entered the world (this demi-god has been called adam or satan). Jesus is seen as either the embodiment of the true God, who brings gnosis (or knowledge) , or just a man who attained divinity - or gnosis -, alike the buddhist enlightenment.
I can't remember where I read it, but the body count in the Bible is approximately:
Satan = 8
God = 32 Million
Seems pretty obvious who is the greatest evil based on murdering people.
The word evil implies Satan. Us humans have a neat way of transferring blame. "The devil made me do it". We also don't like to take credit. "Thank God for putting food on the table" Wait, don't thank God, thank the person who made the money and bought the food. And Wait, don't blame the devil for you wrong doing. Accept blame. On Christmas morning, don't lay out a bunch of gifts and say Santa put them there. You bought them and put them under the tree, put you name on them. God or Satan only exists in ones mind.
No argument but I like Christmas being for children. They will know soon enough that it is a fantasy given to entertain children.
Unfortunately, Christians forget to tell their children that religions are all myth based as well.
I like Christmas being about children as well, but they can thank there parents. What happens when we lie to a child. They learn it's okay to lie and deceive someone for one's own entertainment.
Christmas lying is for the child's entertainment more than for the adult's.
Just how is that entertaining for the child? I think it's a good way of introducing a belief system, but the kid doesn't care if there is a Santa and would be more happy if he knew all these gifts came from his parents. Are we to afraid of gratitude? Do we have to pretend someone else bought the gifts. When I do something wrong I accept the blame.
You have never seen children entertained by Santa?
You should get out more.
Did I say I never saw a child being entertained by Santa? I've been to the mall.
Then if you were there, you can answer your own question.
"Just how is that entertaining for the child?"
I have also played at being Santa and also found it entertaining just to watch the children being entertained.
I think you are missing my entire point. It doesn't matter if you enjoy lying to a child, it fits nicely with Christian culture. We tell children there is a Santa and we tell adults there was Jesus and God. Santa and God do the same thing. They always watch and they know when your good or bad and they will punish or reward accordingly. I think we tell them about Santa as a primer for a much bigger lie. But that still is not my point.
My point is... we must learn to except blame and take credit. We buy a bunch of presents for our children and we give credit elsewhere (Santa). We good things come our way we give credit elsewhere (Thank God). When we do something bad we blame the devil. I'm not sure why we are being taught not to except credit or take blame, but it's about time we did.
Sure. And I have no argument except for the timing of when we tell the full truth to our children. Till then, I think it best to let them use their imaginations and have as much fun as possible as long as it does not get out of hand.
It has with religion I will grant you and that is the enemy, not fairy tales.
Would you scrap all the books of fairy tales out there?
No of course not. But we shouldn't deliberately lie to children about spirits to keep them in line. And we should take credit for the food on the table and blame when we do something wrong.
No argument with your last but those things speak to religion and not fairy tales. I agree that credit should be given or taken where it belongs.
Let us not fault fairy tales for children when it is the fairy tales that grown adults believe in that is our target.
I know what you are saying but ask women and Gays just how harmless theistic beliefs are.
They continue to be denigrated and discriminated against mostly because of what the religions teach.
It is my view that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are Religionists.
They all hurt their parent religions and everyone else who has a belief. They make us all into laughing stocks and should rethink their position. There is a Godhead but not the God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution. Belief in fantasy is evil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HKHaClU … playnext=1
They also do much harm to their own.
African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXr … re=related
Jesus Camp 1of 9
Promoting death to Gays.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMw2Zg_B … re=related
For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.
Depends what you mean by God. Can I take it you are referring to the classical Christian concept of God? If you are, then your question is nonsensical, because that god is, by definition, infinitely good. So your question is a contradiction in terms.
If you want to assert such a being doesn't exists, fair enough. If you want to assert that such a being exists but doesn't meet the classical Christian definition, fair enough. But if you accept that the classical Christian God exists for the sake of argument, as you have, you can't then suggest that being is evil. That makes your argument incoherent.
Only if you are foolish enough to think that genocide is good and good justice is punishing the innocent and not the guilty.
Is that your immoral position?
I don't think you've understood me.
I'll try again. You can say God (as defined in the classical Christian tradition) doesn't exist. And you can say a god exists but is not the one described by Christian theology. But you can't (and by can't I mean the rules of logic prevent it) say that the Christian God exists, but is not good. That is, by definition, impossible.
Try it this way. If I say I have a shape with 3 sides (let's call it a triangle), you can say my shape doesn't exist, or you can say my shape actually has 5 sides, but you can't accept that I have a triangle, and then say it has 5 sides. That would be, by definition, impossible because a triangle is defined as a shape with 3 sides. See what I mean?
Either the Christian God does not exist, or a god exists that's different to the Christian god. Either of those arguments is fine, but if you say the Christian God exists, but is not good, that's the equivalent of saying a triangle exists with 5 sides. It's a contradiction in terms.
I have not said that the Christian God exists.
I can say that if the Christian God exists, he is a prick if the bible is to be believed. He is not to theists but then they are delusional to begin with.
Since I did not say God existed I will ignore your rest.
Hate to be pedantic about this but you really can't, not without contradicting yourself. That's kind of my whole point. If the Christian God does exist then it can't be anything other than what classical Christian theology says it is, otherwise, by definition, it's not the Christian God. Being 'a prick' is not part of the classical Christian definition of God. It's therefore logically impossible for the Christian God to be a prick, in the same way that it's logically impossible for a triangle to have 5 sides. To make it possible you would have to change the definitions of 'triangle', '5' or 'sides'. Likewise to make what you've said possible, you'd have to change the definitions of 'Christian', 'god' or 'prick'. Does that make sense to you? I'm actually trying to help. You would be better off just saying that you think the Christian God does not exist.
If people don't get that from what I wright then they are too dense for me to bother with.
Probably best though if your argument isn't a contradiction in terms, as that detracts from what you might be trying to say. I understand the point you are making, but the way you make it is nonsensical, which is a barrier to anyone who has any understanding of the application of logic. Just saying.
And neither do you, evidently. What's the point of criticising others for not using logic, when your own argument is just as illogical? That doesn't make sense.
Only if you show the where my logic fails.
Have already, but I'm happy to repeat.
The Christian concept of god is an omnibenevolent deity. So if the Christian god exists, then by definition it's omnibenevolent. If you think a deity exists but isn't omnibenevolent that's fine, but that's exactly the same as saying the Christian god doesn't exist. Where your logic fails is that you are saying - "if the Christian God exists, he is a prick". That is logically impossible.
That is opinion and not knowledge so logic does not really apply.
How do you judge the Christian God given what is said of him in scriptures?
That is a value judgement and sure some logic will guide you but it is not a question that logic alone can answer I don't think.
I am not interested in your view of logic or eve3n my own here.
Let's talk God.
God. After all it 'manufactured' everything as well as determined what each person would think, do, or say, when it said the magic words and created the universe.
Such is the Christian malevolent fairy tale.
Gnostic Christian? Lol
That is the ultimate theistic paradoxical. The two cannot coexist without destroying their host.
As for who gets the brownie button: it goes to man, who is -generally speaking- ha-satan to Knowledge, meaning the collective options of good-evil.
No thinking person would agree with you being the traditional Satan but I do agree that it is all mankind. Who else can do anything. Certainly not an absentee God or fictional Satan.
We nust all grow up a bit. Here is the formula.
Man is the winner of the greatest evil. The Devil only amplifies that which is already in our hearts. God made you and me to have free will, so even though he could have made us robots to do whatever he wanted, he gave us the free will to live how we want to. Man made its choice. Continue reading the scriptures you may have missed out on some stuff.
For sure. I suggest you do the same.
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women.
They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqN8EYII … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dspWh9g … re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c0RFxXr … re=related
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from. God or nature.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c … F680C1DBEB
This is why I give God the award as the most evil.
If God is all powerful...
Then He created or permits Satan to exist.
Or maybe He isn't and is just one of many...
Or maybe neither exist at all...
Lol you made a good point, but it sounds as though you do believe that God does exist. If you did not think he did you would not be getting all worked up about it. We were given a choice. All Man was given a choice. The choice to do good or evil. If a man says he is of God and does nothing but evil what does that make him?...... the answer is , he is not of God. If everyone cooperated then we would all be working towards a better future. We wouldn't need money, nobody would be starving, wars would not be happening. Mankind competes for petty things, and because of this we have so many problems in this world. The bible also says that God knew us before we were in the womb. We are all sent out on this journey.(life) We are tested daily. Natural disasters, problems in our lives, = tests. Its to see how we will react. Will we push away from God and claim ourselves to be better because of one little incident that makes us sour towards him. Or will we trust that maybe God who created EVERYTHING might know a liiiiittle more than us, and that his plan will work out for our good. You know to tell you the truth I found this website on accident. I was looking for a new job. But really it kinda feels like I was meant to be here just to start this dialogue with you. Your opions are not being scoffed at. But your kinda generalizing when you say that CHRISTIANS did all these bad things. Again what are christians. Men and Women. What are men and women capable of.... Evil acts beyond imagination. But we as people are also capable of Actual and Genuine kindness and love. Whether you want to admit it or not you do believe there is a God. And he does love you. It just might take a little more time for you to see that. I don't mind further discussion.
You speak in evolutionary term. Cooperation and competition.
You indicate that we can somehow take competition out of our system.
Pie in the sky. FMPOV.
Change my mind by showing how you would do such in a fairly benign activity.
Humans compete for knowledge. In school, we have competitions, exams, to bring the fittest to the top and the weakest to the bottom.
That could be called a non-destructive game but it still has a loser who, if he continues to lose at competitions, will eventually die. He will see his situation as evil.
How do you get around this?
How can the loser be made to feel like a winner?
A superior being does exist. The law of infinity demands it. As to whether He gives a damn about us is another matter entirely.
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