Utilitarianism: Is God worse than the Devil?

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Matthew Kirkposted 12 years ago
When you think about it logically, God has done more evil than the devil himself...

A Utilitarian believes in ethical matters that maximize overall happiness (and sadness) and in order to do this I suppose you have to measure happiness. Here is a fact no Christian, extreme or not can argue with.

Sending one soul to hell for eternity, will create more suffering than every soul that has ever lived on earth ever suffered.

I put it to all of you, that the above statement is incontrovertible, and strongly weakens any argument (I know... what argument?) for the existence of a benevolent god.
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  ElSeductorposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you believe in God?
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  Matthew Kirkposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  noooo
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are not punished for sin but BY sin. In other words, people send themselves to hell for not repenting of evil. After all, what kind of God allows a unrepentant paedophile into heaven? If the law never punished a paedophile on earth, would you approve of that?
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  Claims-Adviceposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which one is real? And who has has it wrong?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Both are real! It is erroneous to believe God is capable of any thinking. It comes from the Old Testament and I have a huge problem with it knowing it is corrupted.
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  Claims-Adviceposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I mean which religion has the real God and which ones are wrong?
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "It is erroneous to believe God is capable of any thinking. "
  
  Wait, what?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol. I meant, "It is erroneous to believe God is capable of creating evil."
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire you fall into the same illogical trap that so many other followers of Church creeds do. Your central claim against universalism is that you think it means paedophiles go to heaven. You clearly do not understand the grace and everlasting love of God. Why can't you conceive that upon death, God deals with the sin within the person, via a cleansing purifying fire, after which the person is made whole? Where do you get the idea that God's mercy only lasts whilst we are alive?
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think that I think that God does not cleanse a REPENTANT person of sin? That's His mercy. However, how can He show mercy to a unrepentant evil-doer? Evil cannot be near Him. And, yes, true repentance can be achieved in death.
  
  People say God is mean because UNREPENTANT evil people go to hell. My comparison about the paedophile is that nobody would think that a judge is evil for locking him away. So why do people think there are no consequences in death for evil on earth?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There will be no unrepentant person when face to face to God whose holiness exposes their sin.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There are evil people who HATE good and God. They will never be repentant for evil they have done.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire it won't matter what a person is when faced with the shekinah glory of God. No man can see his face and live. No one could stand in his presence above the mercy seat. No one will be unrepentant. Every knee will bow and confess him as Lord to the glory of God and it will be a free will bow because an enforced bow will not be to his glory.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, no one can see His face and that is why we have Jesus. Every knee will bow because evil people are terrified of God. Confessing Him as Lord and actually worshiping Jesus out of adoration are completely different things. When Jesus exorcised the demons, they acknowledged Him as the son of God and were petrified. That doesn't mean they repented of their evil.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, apologies for quoting scripture but 1 Cor 12:3 says that nobody can confess he is Lord unless they have the Holy Spirit. So if every knee bows and confesses, all with have his Spirit, thus all saved. It's a free will confession too.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Holy Spirit cannot impose Himself on anyone, i.e, make us love Him. As I said, demons confess Jesus as Lord but they are hardly born again Christians. I hardly believe Satan is going to either. Or are you referring exclusively to humans?
  
  If an evil person only repents because he is made to then that is not true repentance. I don't think you understand, and perhaps even Paul, that not everyone is going to repent because they can't stop committing evil.
  
  Do you believe hell is only reserved for Satan and his demons because no one is going to hell? Jesus most certainly did not believe that. Do you believe that irrespective of what we have done, we have salvation? Do you believe we are saved just because he bow our knee to Him?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire as we see in 1 Cor 12:3 and phillipians 2:10-11, everyone will confess he is lord and that confession is impossible without his spirit, ergo, all have his spirit, thus all are saved. QED.
  
  I've stated time and time again on this forum that the Christian hell is a manmade construct. It simply does not exist in the bible. The popularised Satan individual and demons are not of Hebrew origin, but came into their superstitious beliefs from their exile in Persia. The Church adopted these beliefs.
  
  If hell, the Christian version of Satan, and demons cannot be found in scripture, aka the Hebrew scriptures, I cannot sensibly believe they exist. The NT is not scripture, it did not exist at the time of Jesus, it represents the memoirs of the apostles and the opinions/sermons of Paul, and was only deemed scripture by Vatican committee.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you read Revelation 16:8-11?
  
  8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was allowed to scorch people with fire. 9 They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.
  
  10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.
  
  So you think the New Testament is wrong when Jesus spoke of hell and demons? Hell is the complete separation from God and the above people have chosen to reject God knowing full well who God is.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If God is omnipresent then it is impossible for a place to exist separated from his presence.
  
  Seeing as John borrowed Babylonian astrology for the four living creatures, why should we believe what else he climbed to have seen?
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  John didnt borrow from any myths. what most people cant understand is that satan exists and has been around and deceiving man since the garden of eden. he knows full well what GODs plan for man (and for himself) is. he is the source of all those myths. creating false gods and the myths behind them is his doing, and since his goal is to cause humans to reject GOD, he knew that making myths that resembled the birth and death and resurrection of CHRIST would do just that. that is why there are myths like them...to deceive man into rejecting the truth.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Can the devil be in his presence? No? And he is in hell. He is omnipresent on earth but certainly not in hell. That is why when Jesus was descending to hell, He asked, "Lord, why have you forsaken me?" God was absent. It's only because Jesus took on all sin that He could go to hell.
  
  When there is a new heaven and earth, will God be in hell? No.
  
  Are you referring to John of Patmos when you said he borrowed from Babylonian astrology or John of the Gospel? I most certainly don't know what you are saying about the four living creatures.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire, the four living creatures are based on Babylonian astrology. When you read Rev 4 what do you think John saw? The literal throne of God surrounded by four mystical angelic creatures?
  
  Or was he really standing on the Earth looking up at the stars and imagining this vision. To the Babylonians the stars were gods, but John knowing there is one God concludes the stars are angels instead. He sees these 'angels' in the pattern of the constellations. On one side he sees a lion (aka constellation Leo), on the next he sees an ox or bull (aka constellation Taurus), the third had a human face (aka constellation Aquarius), and the fourth was an Eagle (aka constellation Scorpio). Scorpio is the only sign of the zodiac with two images, in the West we see a scorpion, but the Banylonians percieved an eagle god. Now look up an astrological or astronomical chart and you will see these four constellations at four 'corners' of the zodiac, at four opposing sides of the sky.
  
  Thus John merely looked at the night sky, saw the four constellations, understood the Babylonian imagery, and concluded they were angelic beings surrounding the centre of the heavens. Likewise when he claimed to see a war in heaven between the dragon and the angles, most likely he actually saw some astronomical event, perhaps a comet, and thought he was seeing a dragon. What the Babylonians thought we're gods, and John thought were angels, turn out to be nothing more than enormous balls of hydrogen undergoing thermo nuclear reaction.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So John was just making up the number 666? Apart from what you have written, what else is astrology?
  
  Was it a farce that Jesus spoke about Satan in the New Testament? He spoke of Him as a murderer and liar and exorcised demons.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I may, YES.
  When Moshiach went into the wilderness to be "tested" not "tempted" we must ask why and by what. The answer to both is quite clear:
  Why? To remove the stumbling block of ego from him and begin the process of Restoration. The beginning is defined as the anointing. This empowerment, if one recalls, was not limited to he alone. Others before him had this power. However, the extent of this power exceeded those before him. Samson {Shimshon} hair was not anointed, he was. Elijah dd not have "angel goggles" or titanium alloy legs, etc. Yet each was "tested" to prove their ability to accept, handle and manage that power. Same as Moshe was tested in that same wilderness, away from civilization. One on one with themselves and Creator.
  
  What or Whom? Ego. As said many, many times, no demon nor mention of demon nor Satan existed anywhere in Hebrew history, but did exist in Babylonian mythology -of which most in the region knew about, to some degree. Moshiach was tested in three main points of ego.
  a. bodily desire v reliance on the Spirit
  b. control over the masses v humility before the Spirit
  c. ego to manipulate or supersede Creator v being led by the Spirit
  
  In all three areas, his own mind -that ha~satan tempted him to alter the offering of that power, and use it for other means. And believe it: with the measure of that power could have easily taken over the Hebrew world and even Rome itself. Even with just that pre-resurrection power.
  
  As for casting out of demons {dæmon in the traditional Latin and Greek} refers to a good spirit that is "unclean". The Hebrews have the same terms for clean, unclean. The man in the graveyard was considered afflicted/unclean equally as the one afflicted with leprosy. It says both of their spirits/hearts were unclean and afterward both clean. He even called the Pharisees unclean {or dæmon}. lol. No actual entity was tossed out, as only one spirit can occupy a human being -that is The Spirit. And the Spirit is not divided in Himself.
  
  Yes, ha~satan WAS a murderer and a liar from the beginning.
  The ego murdered Adam's immortality; caused Cain to murder his brother, etc etc etc.
  
  James.
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  lone77starposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good point, Claire. It is by our own decisions that we commit our souls to heaven or to hell.
  
  Matthew Kirk assumes that it's God's doing.
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  youcanwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus came to save the sinners.
  
  Jesus Loves you
  
  Jesus saves sinners from hell and will take them to Heaven.
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  tsmogposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have a view of hell likened to that of the Atheist concerning God. I don't believe it and it has never been proven to me with scripture of the 'existence' of a hell. Hell can in my humble view exist within metaphorical language as a purgatory, which it too is still unproven to me as well.
  
  If I use reason being that of deductive or inductive thought this will be a very long contribution. Cutting it short I offer verse, which is for believers some say and not non-believers. I prefer Occam's Razor with the thought process offered with this forum entry.
  
  1 John 5:12 "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." For there to be an experiential hell there must be life experience. It can't be both. For this humble person. If you do not have the Son, then there is nothing, a poor word choice, yet relevant. I was taught if the Bible is inerrant then if one wrong or false, the domino effect comes into play. The result essentially is all are false.
  
  A choice must be made, and where that choice leads is as a nature personal and not as a nature community. However, community does offer nurture while we each are wise within, again, a personal happenstance or circumstance of positional truth, while testing the spirits sort to speak.
  
  I leave with the thought regarding good vs. evil one may look into what numinous means. Ponder. Then apply it. Then ponder some more.
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  who says GOD is benevolent? who says HE has to be? something people have a very hard time comprehending is that GOD doesnt need your approval for anything HE has done or is doing or will do. HE is the Creator...therefore HE alone has the right to say what will or wont happen and what the rules will or wont be. it just so happens that our GOD desires a relationship with HIS creation. HE offers all the chance to accept or reject HIM and HIS Son. all know what the consequences of rejection will be. and all the while they reject HIM they cry it isnt fair. GOD never said life was fair. all the crying and denying in the world isnt going to change what will happen to those who reject HIM. GOD says no man will have an excuse...no man can plead ignorance. if people simply cease to exist or if they burn for eternity...that is GOD choice. you dont get a vote. what baffles me is why anyone would reject HIM when accepting HIIM makes life so much easier. you have peace in your life, you learn not to fret or worry, your enemies become no threat to you. all your needs are met. you are never alone. you always have a comforter and one you can trust. i cannot imagine life without GOD...it would be desolate.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "overall happiness and sadness" is not the issue, neither is it the most important - to God.
  If everybody were happy and no one were sad, who would look to or think about God. The bible shows that persecution and affliction work together to bring people closer to God. He prods us to think about Him. He wants to bring people into knowledge of Him and this doesn't happen by ridding the planet of sadness or affliction and making it all like one big happy garden of eden, because that did not work either.
  Your utilitarian post approaches from mans point of view which is nothing like Gods point of view.
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  Lybrahposted 11 years agoin reply to this
  God is loving, but remember, He is also just.
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jacharlessposted 12 years ago
What Devil? Once we resolve that question, the answer is evident.
There is no empirical evidence for the existence of such an individual or entity, although there are many mistranslations -adjectives, metaphors for such a personality or character of something else.
James.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where does evil come from? There are opposites in everything. If there is a supreme God of good, there needs to be a supreme god of evil.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why must there be a supreme evil to rage against a supreme good God? This is dualistic not monotheistic. Are you a follower of Zoroastrianism?
  
  The source of all evil is the hearts of men. No devil is required; the concept is redundant.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There does? That is very strange thinking. Hmm.
  And, ps, you never answered my questions.
  You simply asked another, then made a very aloof statement about equal supreme evil.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, so evil comes from God then? I mean, if good comes from God then evil must come from Him, too if there is no evil deity from which all evil manifests.
  
  Is there empirical evidence for the existence of Satan? Does that mean he doesn't exist? No. Many people may have had encounters with Satan but will find any other explanation to explain it away. So Satan can only be proven to those who know how to interpret his existence.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You seriously, genuinely and honestly believe that? Hmm, interesting.
  
  By the way, in answer to your question: Evil is misunderstood and therefore attributed in the wrong method. Understanding what evil represents/defines -not the definition of evil- explains in great details why it even exists and the only creature it effects. In addition it confirms, unequivocally, Satan [title, entity] cannot exist.
  
  James.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Satan cannot exist? I'm sorry, but you are saying God is responsible for evil then by default. You don't even appear to know what evil is.
  
  Who inspires the mind of someone who shoots a child in the head? God?
  
  So tell me: what is evil to you?
  
  What did Jesus save us from if there is no Satan? Are you saying the NT has it wrong? What is hell?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Evil comes from men's hearts. Satan is a redundant concept. Jesus paid the penalty for sin and those hearts. There is no hell.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  +++
  Well, that was easy. lol
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Oh, so evil comes from God then? I mean, if good comes from God then evil must come from Him, too if there is no evil deity from which all evil manifests. "
  
  If God created everything then God created evil. Or He created Satan, who created evil. It doesn't really matter which, because either way God is the one who's ultimately responsible.
  
  You can't say that there's a supreme god of good (God) and a supreme god of evil (Satan) and that Satan came about independently, because Christianity is a monotheistic religion. If you believe in two gods (whether or not you worship both) you are by definition pagan, not Christian.
  
  I realize this is hilarious coming from somebody who considers herself a Christian agnostic, but this is Christianity 101 we're talking about here. Your statements are quite startling coming from one of HubPages' more vocal Bible literalists.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God did not create everything. How can He create evil and then be against it? Yes, create evil so that He can send His son to hell. Does that make sense?
  
  You know who is ultimately responsible? US. We make our decisions and we must stop blaming God when things go wrong.
  
  I don't fit into the category of the classic Christian but that doesn't mean I'm not Christ-committed. What is the victory of Christ if Satan was just a minor evil character? This creature is powerful and has always existed like God. Satan can create just like God.
  
  So I don't think pagans believe Jesus is the son of God.
  
  I have a similar view-point, although not exactly, with Marcion of Sinope, a bishop in early Christianity. Here it is:
  
  "Study of the Jewish Scriptures, along with received writings circulating in the nascent Church (the majority of which were eventually incorporated into the New Testament canon) led Marcion to conclude that many of the teachings of Jesus were incompatible with the actions of the god of the Old Testament, Yahweh. Marcion responded by developing a dualist system of belief around the year 144.[7] This dual-god notion allowed Marcion to reconcile supposed contradictions between Old Covenant theology and the Gospel message proclaimed by Jesus.
  
  Marcion affirmed Jesus to be the saviour sent by the Heavenly Father, and Paul as His chief apostle. In contrast to the nascent Christian church, Marcion declared that Christianity was distinct from and in opposition to Judaism. Marcion did not claim that the Jewish Scriptures were false. Instead, Marcion asserted that they were to be read in an absolutely literal manner, thereby developing an understanding that YHVH was not the same god spoken of by Jesus, e.g. in the Genesis account of YHVH walking through the Garden of Eden asking where Adam was, Marcion read this to mean that YHVH physically walked through the Garden without foreknowledge of Adam's whereabouts. Marcion argued that this proved YHVH inhabited a physical body (unlike the Heavenly Father) and that YHVH was ignorant and without universal foreknowledge, attributes wholly incompatible with the Heavenly Father professed by Jesus.
  
  According to Marcion, the god of the Old Testament, whom he called the Demiurge, the creator of the material universe, is a jealous tribal deity of the Jews, whose law represents legalistic reciprocal justice and who punishes mankind for its sins through suffering and death. Contrastingly, the god that Jesus professed is an altogether different being, a universal god of compassion and love who looks upon humanity with benevolence and mercy.
  
  Marcion held Jesus to be the son of the Heavenly Father but understood the incarnation in a docetic manner, i.e. that Jesus' body was only an imitation of a material body. Marcion held that Jesus paid the debt of sin that humanity owed via his crucifixion, thus absolving humanity and allowing it to inherit eternal life.[8]
  
  Marcion was the first to propose a New Testament canon. His canon consisted of only eleven books grouped into two sections: the Evangelikon, being a version of the Gospel of Luke,[9] and the Apostolikon, a selection of ten letters of Paul the Apostle (whom Marcion considered the correct interpreter and transmitter of Jesus' teachings). Neither section included elements relating to Jesus' childhood, Judaism, and material challenging Marcion's dualism. Marcion also produced his Antitheses contrasting the Demiurge of the Old Testament with the Heavenly Father of the New Testament.
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope
  
  This has Gnostic sentiments but there are a few things I agree with: the god in the OT is obviously someone or entities that could verbally interact with the Jews. The literal translation of the Old Testament says as much. These gods aren't Satan but are creations by him.
  
  I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm a Christian agnostic. There isn't such a thing.
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "So I don't think pagans believe Jesus is the son of God."
  
  A pagan is anyone who believes in more than one god, so some pagans (like you and Marcion) believe Jesus is the son of one of them and some don't.
  
  "I'm not sure where you get the idea I'm a Christian agnostic. There isn't such a thing."
  
  I didn't say you were a Christian agnostic, I said I was. As for "there isn't such a thing," there aren't supposed to be any pagan Christians either, so by any "classic Christian" definition of Christianity neither you nor I ought to exist. Yet we do. Fancy that!
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So I'm pagan Christian? That's an oxymoron and is impossible.
  
  What is the flip-side of my pagan Christianity? Well, it means God created Satan and is responsible for all evil and has some nerve punishing us for things He created. So He creates the very being that made Jesus sweat blood and descend to hell. And, of course, He must have foreseen that.
  
  A person ought not to be a Christian if they aren't sure Jesus is not the son of God. What exactly do you mean by agnostic Christian? You are just a Christian nominally but is not sure of Christ's status as the son of God?
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Claire correct me if I'm wrong but:
  You believe that Satan is the source of all evil. As you believe that God agrees with you on this, you cannot believe that God created him. Whereas the Church believes God did create him but he was once nice before choosing to rebel. So you conclude there is a good God and and evil god aka Satan.
  
  Sounds to me you are a Zoroastrian then.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's interesting that there often is a kernel of truth in each religion.
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "So I'm pagan Christian? That's an oxymoron and is impossible."
  
  Clearly not. Claire, the definition of pagan is someone who believes in more than one God. You have just started that you believe in more than one god. Therefore you are pagan.
  
  You also follow Christ, therefore you are a Christian pagan. It's very simple and not an oxymoron at all. Pagans don't have any defined set of beliefs other than believing in more than one god, so it's quite possible to be a pagan and a Christian at the same time, at least from the pagan perspective. From the Christian perspective, it's not possible, but that's because Christianity is monotheistic. You are not, so what you're actually doing is using a definition of Christianity that you do not personally agree with to declare that you yourself do not exist. If I were you I'd give up and embrace your paganism! The Christians excommunicated Marcion, you know.
  
  "What is the flip-side of my pagan Christianity? Well, it means God created Satan and is responsible for all evil and has some nerve punishing us for things He created. So He creates the very being that made Jesus sweat blood and descend to hell. And, of course, He must have foreseen that. "
  
  Yes, that is in fact the logical conclusion of the traditional Christian concept of an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator. It just happens that you reached that conclusion, decided you hated that version of God, and figured out your own ditheistic model of Christianity to make God responsible for all the good and Satan for all the evil, while I reached the same conclusion, decided I hated that version of God, futzed around for a couple years to see if I liked any other versions better, realized that the concept of god itself wasn't really doing it for my rational, evidence-based brain, and eventually became an agnostic who happens to hold Christ as a model for the ideal human being.
  
  In other words, we're both heretics, just in different ways.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cool, I'm a Christian pagan. It's sound fancy!
  
  But, no, I will not give up my Christianity because Jesus is the son of God. That's the crux of the Christian religion.
  
  So as much it is sad that you don't know Jesus personally, I respect the fact that you rejected the evil version of God in the OT and decided to say you just don't know, as you are an agnostic, but have accepted Jesus as the ideal human being even although He is much more than that.
  
  So if I didn't know Jesus, I would definitely choose to be in your position.
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  Claims-Adviceposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There's a good argument to say that good and evil in stories ans life are manifestations of the cycles of light and day that happen to be in place in our planet and solar system. Sun, safety, sight, warmth. Night, darkness, danger, uncertainty, cold.
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prettydarkhorseposted 12 years ago
He/she wears Prada..
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No doubt.
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  Shadesbreathposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL, yes, and looks simply smashing!
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schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years ago
My opinions about religion change a lot from day to day.
I am pissed off to know how many screwed up people are in churches are "acting" like they're good and some are very sick people.

I'd like to give you an answer but I can't.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
It seems bizarre to me that people would look up to a deity such as Satan with passion and a reverie.

When did Satan ever create anyone? What in the world makes people think that Satan actually cares about the human race-it was Satan's actions that began mankind's Spyro down to condemnation.

Satan did not praise Job for being a follower of God No, he made every attempt to make Job's life as miserable as possible and to be restrained by God's commandment not to kill Job.

Where in the Bible does it talks about Satan doing anything good for mankind?
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  Matthew Kirkposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure it doesn't but thats not the point - the point is:
  
  Sending one soul to hell for eternity, will create more suffering than every soul that has ever lived on earth ever suffered.
  
  Therefore god is just as bad, if not worse for sending someone to hell.
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  jukelsposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What does the bible say in Joshua 1:8? And in Ezekiel 18:20? Also in Romans 6:23? The bible has been made a life manual. It contains rules and principles that should govern how we live our lives. You do not believe in God? Change that mentality, because the earlier the better.
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jukelsposted 12 years ago
What in the world would make an individual to think that the God who created the Heaven and Earth would be compared in such a manner that is considered irregular? He's the Lord, that's his name. He'll never share His glory with anyone. So, get that out of your mind. He (God) is the supreme being, ok?
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peanutroasterposted 12 years ago
Where does good come from? Any successful society has to have rules that further the society so that it benefits the society. Basic things like murder and stealing goes back to the first caveman groups. Sorry folks but the 10 Commandments are not anything original or revolutionary. Its rather basic rules any society. Evil comes from greed, power grabs, breaks in society, mental illness etc.
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Larry Garnerposted 12 years ago
thats why jesus died to save us from our sins and from hell
romans 3:23 all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god
romans 6:23 the wags of sin is death but the free gift of god is eternal life
romans 10:13 whosoever calls upon the name of the lord will be saved
do u want to really chance not to say the sinners prayed ? and find out that thier is a real hell i hope you dont
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I will go with Disappearinghead's statement to answer your question, if he does not mind.
  So, if ALL ARE "saved" by the act of one man, death, the grave itself and hell overthrown, full restoration in effect -in each one who exercises practical faith versus biblical memorization, evoking and idol-worship of the text- then YES, I will take that "chance". Although I am certain nothing happens by chance. No lot to cast, no dice to roll. Furthermore, if the grave, death and hell are overthrown and the one who made that happen saved all, not one would go to such a place. It would completely contradict his work.
  
  James.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Larry when you quote Rom 3:23 why do you exclude v22 & v24? Like James I do not wish to measure my life against the text as this is salvation by works and human effort,and I do not wish to be as the Pharisees who think they had eternal life by memorising text either.
  
  Nevertheless I do wish to use the text when arguing a point.
  
  Notice that v23 starts with a 'for' note the lower case 'f'. Thus it is not a phrase you can take on isolation as it continues from v22.
  V22 states clearly that the righteousness comes via the faith OF Messiah NOT the faith of the individual. Notice it comes to ALL and upon all who believe for there is no difference between these groups of people.
  V24 states that the ALL who sinned in v23 are now made righteous freely by Messiah.
  
  You may need to read a literal translation to see these. Nevertheless, we see clearly universal salvation here for ALL.
  
  Rom 6:23. Sure the wages of sin is death. Fortunately the gift of life age during has been given to all by Messiah.
  
  Philippians 2:10-11 says that every knee will bow and confess Messiah as Lord to the glory of the Father. This is not an enforced bow and confession but a free one otherwise the Father is not glorified. 1 Cor 12:3 says no one can say Messiah is Lord but by the Holy Spirit, thus everyone will one day be filled with his spirit, thus they must first have been restored, aka saved in Church parlance.
  
  James, no problem.
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  you are missing the point i think...the key phrase here is...ALL WHO BELIEVE. not simply ALL. it is made crystal clear that only those who believe in and accept CHRISTS divinity...that HE was/is the Son of GOD. it also states that that ;
  
  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
  
  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
  
  those three are found in 1 john 4, KJV.
  and of course John 3:16...
  
  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
  
  taken with the verses before this that i quoted shows that this belief must be in CHRIST.
  
  so not everyone will be saved.
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Matthew Kirkposted 12 years ago
Not a particularly logical lot are you. Nobody has remained anywhere near the topic here...

apart from tlmcgaa70 who kind of agrees with me.
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lone77starposted 12 years ago
@Matthew Kirk, no. You said, "When you think about it logically, God has done more evil than the devil himself." That's when you think about it, not me. You based your conclusion on one example: "Sending one soul to hell for eternity." And yet, the soul is the one doing the sending by its own decision. Anyone can decide to return to God or not, but every decision has consequences. Just like the suicide perpetrator who decides to step off the roof of a building. God created the laws of physics, so when they go splat on the pavement, that's God "hating" them at the velocity of impact. And I use the word "hating" in quotes to emphasize that this is a human interpretation, not His actual state of mind.

So, logically, your argument doesn't hold any water.

God loves all of His children. When they refuse to come back, He will let them wallow in physical universe oblivion (hell), but the choice is theirs, not His.

Everything God does is out of love. God created us in His image and likeness, but you have to remember, God is not Homo sapiens. If you ignore this point, then all of your arguments regarding God are worthless.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whilst people are living and dying without choosing to be restored to God, death is not the end. Every knee will eventually bow and confess Messiah is Lord and as this confession is impossible without the Spirit of the Lord, evidently all will be restored at some point in the age to come.
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Matthew Kirkposted 12 years ago
How do you close down a thread? Too many extremists. My mistake to make an empirical statement I suppose.
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  Claire Evansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tough. Nobody is going to come and stalk you down and become kill you by being a suicide bomber.
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Xenonlitposted 12 years ago
God does not do evil at all. God is neither the trickster nor the demon. The devil does the evil. We who are weak minded and spiritually pitiful do the evil. This question is an oxymoron because God is, by very nature GOOD.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not to intentionally disagree, Xenonlit, but inherently, Creator is neither good nor evil. Good & evil are the result of dividing Truth. Creator is not divided in Himself, in any measure, else He would essentially become just like humans and suffer the effect which is his own death. Not to mention destroy Himself -which means everything-everything.
  
  This is why the argument concerning good-evil continues. Humans remain divided in themselves. At one time they were not divided and Understanding was their experience. Immediately, as the story goes, upon indulging {dividing} Understanding, genetically programmed into them, became mortal, began to die. No more overwhelming proof or evidence is required to explain precisely why Creator is neither nor can be good nor evil, as application of either is duality, is inevitable destruction.
  
  James.
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  tlmcgaa70posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  james, this is very interesting and has set me onto a thought. GOD...IS. good and evil are human concepts. GOD...DOES. we call what GOD does either good or evil. if something is not pleasant or good in our eyes it becomes evil. GOD tells us HIS thoughts and HIS ways are not ours thoughts and ways, there is a huge, unbelievably huge expanse between our thoughts and ways and HIS. it would be like a toddler trying to understand the mind of a super genius, and even that doesnt come close. GOD created satan that man would have a choice and we call satan evil. satan is the opposite of GOD, so if GOD...IS, then that would mean satan...IS NOT. positive and negative.
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  jacharlessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, yes, Satan is not.
  Ha-satan however is opposition. But most do not catch that ha~satan is not opposite of Creator.
  Creator has no opposite nor equal. The idea of opposites is duality - good-evil, yin-yang, etc.
  This concept comes from and is only enabled//believed by duality, that there must be polar opposites of any thing. Ha-hatan is IN opposition to truth. Interesting enough opposition exists IN truth itself. What most can define as a lie. What then is a lie? It is simply Truth skewed. Truth is Understanding, is Wisdom. Man was formed and fashioned by the very Wisdom he opposes and the wisdom he is. Given a measure of Wisdom, which are the collective thoughts in his brain. A million billion gorgeous threads of light. When man divided that Truth, he became ha~satan. He essentially "got in his own way", cutting himself off from perfection. Ha~satan, translated from the Hebrew means: the opposition or the one in opposition; blocks the Way of; hinders; turns in another direction. { "ha" in the Hebrew means "the" and "satan" is a common noun or pronoun for "ego"}. Thus, none other than The human Ego is that thing which opposes Truth. Reason, meaning knowledge divided, opposes Truth.
  
  And yes, you are correct, what humans deem as good-evil becomes good-evil. As only humans were given power to create, to manifest anything. So also, he alone suffer from this affliction, this Duality. Nothing else in nature/creation does. And yes, again, human present mode of thinking is grossly far from His. But, that remembrance or right thinking was promised humans. That they could be restored to that Understanding, if led by spirit which supersedes that thinking and correctly aligns those thoughts. Not saying we would know everything-everything, but that we would remember what that amnesia, caused by Reason, caused us to forget. {aka the other 90% of our brains}. A measure of Understanding that allowed humans to be immortal, to know and engage every element of earth, to manage it and every creature within. Even to understand the stars, places afar off and who knows what else. We often forget two vital things:
  -man was formed after the worlds were made and things put in those worlds.
  -man did not have to suffer or labor to make them, know them or manage them.
  
  Humans were "management ready" upon their creation, knowing all they needed to, plus understanding of themselves and most certainly understanding of Creator, of whom they were designed to be a reflection of. Humans are the sum-substance of all the elements of all created things --which is the sum-substance of Creator in that reflection. The Irresistible reflected Himself and formed man, who is also irresistible to himself, all of creation and that Irresistible who made him.
  
  In the recent unearthing of the Sophia of Moshiach in Egypt, Moshiach speaks to the twelve, with M. Magdalene present, after the resurrection. They ask him many questions about the universe, matter itself, energy, immortality, what Creator was, etc. One major question they asked was about sin, sickness and death. The response was just outstanding. I will paraphrase it: "[Savior], What is sin?" He replied, "Sin is not evil or good, it is the division of truth; to oppose your very nature {translated ha-satan}. You sin because you still believe sin. That makes your body sick and what causes you to die"...."As you see me now is how you ought to be."
  
  James.
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courtyB3posted 12 years ago
I believe it is completely subjective. Depending on belief but so many believe that there is ONLY right and wrong but in actuality there are many grey areas.
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Wruyposted 12 years ago
This is in response to the original hub. The incontrovertible statement is only ture if you believe that God is going to send you to a lake of fire just for not doing all the things that most people consider petty. As a Christian, I can tell you that in the church I go to we all consider God our heavenly father who does love us. To gain heaven all you have to do is repent, be baptized and believe that Jesus died for your sins. We all slip up from time to time its in our nature. Thats why you repent. We also believe that if you have not heard the word your not going to hell. Your going to basically what I would consider to be like a waiting room. You go there and you are taught what you either could not learn here on Earth or what you would not accept. Then if you do not accept there your seperated from God. The weeping and gnashing of teeth isn't a pain of fire but of regret. Take it like this, someone offers you a million dollars, but you don't believe that its a true thing you take it for a scam so you say no. You Move or whatever you want to take as a metaphor for going to the "waiting room" , and the guy comes up and says hey its still valid and the money is just as good here so do you want this million dollars. You still say no cause you think its crazy and why would he be just giving you a million dollars. Your chance has expired so you go out and you see other people running around doing things they want to do with the money and your sitting there kicking yourself because you could have had that. Well thats how you should percieve hell. Seperation from God and your kicking yourself cause you could have been with him. Its funny because the firey hell is something that scares alot of people, so instead of turning to God and repenting people just outright deny God even exists. Thats the Devil pure and simple saying you are better than God. Same thing happened to Adam and Eve if you read and understand it. I just want to say to both of you don't just outright deny God, cause your playing right into the Devils hands. You can't listen to what some guy says you need to go out and do the research for yourself. I would start with Church of Latter day Saints. If you think I am off my meds I challenge you to go and put everything you have into investigating, as in getting involved with a local Mormon Church, ( Not polygamists), and see what change comes about in your life. Give it some time and get back to me. Its gonna be good I promise.
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Utilitarianism: Is God worse than the Devil?

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Utilitarianism: Is God worse than the Devil?

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