Blame all Christians!
Is it really necessary to blame all Christians for the idiocy and violent actions of people who think God is telling them to kill people, or other evil things?
Three points for this:
1. The "crusades" and "inquisition" happened a long, long time ago. I wasn't a part of that, or I'd be one of the oldest living humans on earth. Plus, I'm not Catholic! You can thank the RCC for that one. Even things that happen in more recent times, I get flak for, like those morons that bomb abortion clinics. I can't be everywhere at once!
2. Jesus warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing. There are traitors to Christ within our midsts, and it isn't my fault; I can't control what other people do, and I firmly condemn all that do on an individual basis.
3. Jesus SPECIFICALLY said to turn the other cheek (Matt. 5:39), and do violence to no man (Luke 3:14). Jesus never sent His apostles out into the world to conquer it by force, and anyone who does advocate violence and calls themselves a Christian, is a liar (see #2).
Isn't that no better than the concept of racism, which is another radically extreme ideal: Why are people so against racism, yet so willing to condemn all Christians for the actions of evil people?
Serious question. Why is it so easy to condemn racists, yet you can't see that your own collectivist thinking condemns all Christians for what other people do? Isn't this the same mentality that led to the Holocaust? By birth, I'm a Jew, but by faith I'm a "Christian" (more like a Messianic-Jew, really, but...), so this really scares me how radicalized people are in condemning a whole swath of people based on ONE criteria.
Thank you for your consideration.The Nazi Party of Germany happened not that long ago, yet there are still followers in the party who keep it alive and kicking today. That doesn't show the Nazi Party to be an more or less responsible for their actions then nor does it give the Nazi Party and more credibility today as an organization to be taken seriously, other than seriously dangerous.
All dictators, despots, egomaniacs and control freaks will say pretty much the same thing.I really have never met anyone who hates anyone for their belief (at least they never shared the hatred with me). I guess I have been lucky. But I have been banged on the head with some bibles while being told I was going to hell if I did not accept Jesus as my savior and then reminded God hates the sin but loves the sinner. Me! I do not like it when people do or say that to me, especially since they have no real clue what I believe, but I don't blame all of Christianity for their action.
Is it really necessary to blame all people of any particular belief for the idiocy and violent actions of people who think their God or deity is telling them to kill people, or other evil things?
In every religion there are fundamentalists who have to scream louder than the rest of the followers, and those are the ones who get all the attention. Their view no matter what religion seem to be based on their particular interpretation which almost always has a base constructed to strike fear in the hearts of their believers and they also set themselves up to judge all those who do not believe as they do. I think those are the ones the dislike is aimed at, seems sad that the rest of the people feel the fallout.
I'm going to weigh in here. First, I am a Christian. Second, I have been a believer and a Christian for a good portion of my adult life. I understand that it's not pleasant to feel as though someone is blaming you personally for the conflict, hatred, and violence that has been perpetrated over the centuries in the name of Christianity. But if, as a Christian, you cannot look honestly back over history and acknowledge that the institution of Christianity has done evil to those of other or no faith, you will never grow.
You must come to the understanding that the faith you choose to espouse has a history. In many cases, it's a bloody one. Posts like this that attempt to excuse it away because it was 'a long time ago' are amazingly easy to shoot down. There is absolutely nothing that you can do or say as a Christian that will change history. What it looks like to outsiders when you post things like this is that you're in a state of denial about what has happened over the centuries. To say that the criticism is unfair because those actions went directly against Jesus's commandments is a completely wrong argument. If anything, that makes the historical evil of Christianity's actions even worse.
Now, I believe that those 'Christians' over history who have perpetrated these horrible acts on others have acted from their own motivations, and attempted to 'excuse' it by claiming it was somehow a part of God's plan. What it boils down to for me is that there is no - absolutely NO - justification for violence on the part of any believer in, and follower of Christ. To make excuses for it, to get offended when others denounce it, or to pretend that it has no bearing on what humanity as a whole thinks, feels, or believes today is to completely set yourself up (unintentionally, of course) as the same type of antagonist that the institution of Christianity has been turning out since the inception of the faith.
The absolute best way to practice your faith is to DO what Jesus told you to do. Don't spend your life telling others to do it. Those instructions were for YOU and YOUR growth, and meant for the correction of believers, not those who believe differently or don't believe at all.But if, as a Christian, you cannot look honestly back over history and acknowledge that the institution of Christianity has done evil to those of other or no faith, you will never grow.
No, I don't feel guilty because evil people misrepresent the name of Christ in their words and deeds. They're evil for a reason, no matter what label they claim. I call it out for what it is: Evil.
What am I supposed to do, apologize for something that isn't my fault? How do I pay for the sins of another person? There is only ONE who died for the sins of all, and that is Jesus. I can't pay for anyone else's sins.
There is absolutely nothing that you can do or say as a Christian that will change history.
Exactly, so why try and apologize for something that can't be changed? Why feel bad about something that literally has nothing to do with Jesus Christ or what He commanded? Jesus never ONCE told anyone to harm another human, and anyone who does so in the name of Christ is a LIAR. Plain and simple.
To say that the criticism is unfair because those actions went directly against Jesus's commandments is a completely wrong argument.
What kind of madness is this? Are you serious? You can't possibly be serious.
The absolute best way to practice your faith is to DO what Jesus told you to do. Don't spend your life telling others to do it. Those instructions were for YOU and YOUR growth, and meant for the correction of believers, not those who believe differently or don't believe at all.
Jesus rebuked the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus stood firmly AGAINST the religiosity, the "holier than thou" within the synagogues of His time. He never laid a hand against them, but sure as heck called them out for what they were. "Den of vipers! Hypocrites!"
My point in all this is twofold: On the one hand, you have "Christians" who are really only pretending to follow Jesus' example; and on the other, trying to show people the fallacy of condemning a whole group of people based on the wickedness of people beyond my control.
I can't help it if idiots and morons share a label they put themselves under, that they are neither passionate about or willing to follow in full. But I'll be damned before I just sit by and let them get away with calling themselves "Christians".Wow.
I've never seen someone miss a point so completely.
We have obviously reached a point where reasonable dialogue isn't possible between us.
Good luck fighting this fight.Really? Give up so easily?
"So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." - Revelation 3:16.I don't give up. I'm not fighting. You are. For that part, I find my actions far more important than my words when it comes to this particular subject.
Lukewarm. Never been called that before.
I don't need your approval to know where I stand with God, but thank you for putting in your two cents.Are you just so ready to give up and accept that those evil people actually represent Jesus Christ? The Crusades and Spanish Inquisition were things that Jesus commanded?
Not rebuking those things for what they were, is "lukewarm". Don't be afraid to call out supposed "Christians" or supposed examples of "Christians" for being evil.
Saying they're evil, is not judging them. Judgment is more of a final thing, like death. You're not sentencing them to death or telling them they're going to hell. It is easy to see that those people never really followed what Christ said in the first place, because if they were following what Jesus said then they wouldn't have done it! Hence the whole quoting "ye shall know them by their fruit" thing, ya know?
They're wolves in sheep's clothing, vipers, hypocrites. They are NOT Christians, they are servants of Satan.
2nd Corinthians chapter 11:
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
and
Matthew chapter 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Where, in everything that I wrote did you see me say that the Christian past is not evil? Are you sure you're responding to me and not to others with whom you've battled in the past? I'm completely confused as to how the points I made have you thinking that I support the evil done over history by Christians. Again, I've never seen someone miss a point so completely.
I'm sorry. I've had this conversation with others several times. Forgive me if I'm not interested in doing it again.
Also, I know my Bible. There is no need for you to copy and paste verses in an effort to support your argument or to rebuke me.
"But if, as a Christian, you cannot look honestly back over history and acknowledge that the institution of Christianity has done evil to those of other or no faith, you will never grow."
YOU said that. Christianity has not done any evil to anyone, because anything that is evil is NOT Christianity. It can't be, because Jesus said to do evil to no one, and to love our enemies. Therefore, if anything is contrary to that, it isn't Christianity no matter how hard people try to ascribe it to the rest of us Christians.I sure did say that. Right there in black and white. I see that you argue in abstract concepts rather than concrete facts.
"Christianity has not done any evil to anyone, because anything that is evil is NOT Christianity."
You are speaking of the concept of Christianity and its practice. I am speaking of the institution of Christianity...the CHURCH, if you prefer. And, indeed, the CHURCH has done evil to those of other faiths or no faith. In many instances, even to men and women of their own faith. And before you start throwing your anti-Catholic sentiment in there, I mean the CHURCH as the body of Christ on earth, regardless of denomination. The CHURCH of God has done evil. You cannot deny it or prove otherwise, no matter how hard you try or how you try to cleverly spin your argument by conceptualizing your faith and distancing yourself from others who practice it.
Does that make you personally responsible for it? Of course not. Does that mean it hasn't happened? Nope.You cannot deny it or prove otherwise, no matter how hard you try or how you try to cleverly spin your argument by conceptualizing your faith and distancing yourself from others who practice it.
Uhh, yeah I can. I don't go to church. Any church. Churches are based on the traditions and doctrine of mankind, not the bible.
Do I share similar beliefs as some churches? Yes, but I can't help that.
The CHURCH of God has done evil.
God does not dwell in structures made by human hands. Therefore the "church" of God has not done evil. You ascribe evil to something where there really is none.
And before you start throwing your anti-Catholic sentiment in there ...
lolThis entire post reveals a lot.
I hope that you feel that I have been rightfully vanquished.
All the best to you.
That is good that you know your bible well enough to recognize when something does not add up to instructions left by Jesus but many do not know their bible that well since they seem to take on faith what ever is said from the pulpit. You are not being condemned as an individual. These collections of bad decisions are only inciting Religion wars and genocides. Standing against it is sometimes needed or you will just be an addition to the problem. Simply voicing your opposition to what you believe goes against God.
People have lived Peacefully among each other for centuries but aggression only begets aggression.
Standing against it is sometimes needed or you will just be an addition to the problem.
Right, and I make my stand against evil by voicing my disdain for those who call themselves Christians that do violence. Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone, right? You won't catch me picking up any rocks.
two cents...
You think it was worth that much? Opps, couldn't help myself.
I like your hair style, miss. You have a great smile. Anyway, God doesn't exist. Stop preaching that absurd faith here. We are all grown ups.
Ceegen, can you teach a goat how to ride a bicycle? Stop making the kitchen cleaners wiser!
Umm, I didn't have the time to read all that, but do you ever reread what you write? You continue to say one thing and then when questioned you say something completely different.
Did you really just ask "How do I pay for the sins of another person?" because I'm pretty sure according to your book we are all paying for the sins of Adam and Eve. Your own book is telling you we are paying for another's sin and you say "it's not my fault" Well of course it's not you fault, but that bible keeps telling you something else. Either the bible it right or you are. Which is it?
I know you'll respond with something completely different, probably start taking about smoke or beans or something, but go ahead. It'll make me laugh.I can't pay for the sins of Adam, but I am under the curse of sin because of Adam. What Adam did is a debt I can't repay. Jesus, a sinless man, payed for that sin and all others. This is why Jesus is the only way to salvation.
Being a follower of Jesus, makes you a "Christ-man", and if your words or deeds betray your faith in Jesus, you are not a Christian. No one has a choice in being human, and all are under the curse of Adam because all are human; but everyone has a choice to follow or reject God.If Christ is as he is portrayed as per the bible, I find it hard to believe he would demand someone follow him or be damned. just does not sound logical to me. Probably the reason I am a recovering Catholic, logic and religion keep bumping heads.
It takes a thinking person to see the heads bumping. I scratch mine often.
Yeah well, Catholic doctrine does that to people. It's why I'm not a Catholic, but I didn't just throw baby Jesus out with the dirty bathwater.
I knew you would do that. 'I don't have to pay for anyone else's sin", but you're paying for Adam's. But you just call that a curse and not a sin and your able to sleep at night with that?
Let's try it like this...
Sin = Loan
Curse = Interest
Sinless Death = Payment of loan
Tree of knowledge of good and evil = Bank
Because Adam was the first to take out a loan that couldn't be paid off, all of humankind accrues interest, because the loan was taken out of God's bank. Satan was just a middle-man who got Adam to sign an intermediary contract fee.
Only Jesus could've payed off the loan, and He did. So now Jesus is the holder of the title, and only by accepting His payment are our debts erased. Otherwise, Satan still holds the title to your payments, and you can never pay Satan off. He always finds ways to increase your loan payments.
You have no debt to be paid from Adam because if you believe that Jesus repaid that debt then the only sin you now carry would be an act committed against the Laws of God. Let no one call you a sinner as if you wear it like a vest. It is an act.
As an atheist, I applaud you...
Finally, a believer who doesn't appear to be BSC (just think about it, it'll come to you).
+1Well then, thank you very much. I appreciate your kind words, sir.
Just know, I'm not going to lie to you: I'm after you. I do want to convert you to Christ, not some church. I don't want your money, and I don't want your sympathy or praise. I want you to worship God, and that you do that by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.
Well, I have high hopes, at least. But at least I am up front with you about it. I'm not going to try and sneak it in, or try to guilt you into believing. I want you to love God out of your own free will, just as I do. No one forced me to believe this stuff, I just do.
Anyway, before I go off on a sermon, again... thanks for responding positively. It really shows your maturity and patience.
Christianity seems to be a religion of Plots and Snares. Though we accepted this religion in our land it certainly did not erase the past or present atrocities that come under this religion. I am quick to respond to wrongful acts they commit because what they do bring defamation to us all. This is no different then your N F L team player being arrested for a child pornographic ring or provoking genocide. How would you then feel being on that team? Don't forget that the Pope has affiliations with the Nazi so what do you expect to come down the pike even when you see him doing his stupid wave of peace please do not be fooled by it because his blade is at your childrens throats. Remember who they really are. We must not sit silent under this kind of reign. Since we make up the Organization then we are responsible for what they do. Though violence is associated with Liberation it is important to know if liberation is being used to mask Occupation. Who would benefit from the fall of power in that country or region? Let not your feet run to evil (proverbs) warns of taking part in wicked deeds for profit.
Okay first off, My brethren, Why are we arguing over our Lord Jesus Christ? Is this what we have come to, arguing saying if he's real or not, and "i dont like your thougts, we'll i dont like your thoughts" junk? Our Father is a Man of LOVE, HONOR, AND STRENGTH. My brethren, who HAVE a relationship with Christ, i know how you feel and you want to explain the Lord to these people who Don't know, and you want to reveal it ALL to them, God will do so in HIS TIME! There are ALOT who are NOT READY to be Awakened just Yet! The time may be running out every second that passes, but if they don't get it, we tried to help, we won't go to the bottomless pit for their mistakes. So please my sisters and brothers, don't pressure these people who are trapped in the Human world, one day, they will be on Our Side once more!
Not everyone blames Christians for everything, but it is a Christian doing these things. As a whole, the Christian community has done good, but they've also done a lot of bad. Christianity has had a lot of radicals. I understand that isn't the religions fault, every religion attracts radicals. We must look past these when judging the whole religion, but we can't ignore these radicals. They're a problem. Every abortion clinic bombed is one less place for me to take a girl on a third date. If you don't think abortion is right, then don't get an abortion. Bombing the clinic just shows everyone how insane you are, and that the other group, the one not bombing medical facilities, is probably right.
How does Mitt Romney represent the Christian Conse.vative voter? Besides insulting and over talking the Moderator He just Lied about every thing he said during his campaign as if we don't have it on video. Let him have his Cake because tomorrow he must eat a lot of Crow! As an Independent Voter this just became a No Brainer.
- Emile Rposted 12 years ago
0Anyone who blames too for item number one is grasping at straws hoping to find a scape goat. No one is responsible for the actions of others...whether they be dead or alive. And no one is responsible for the actions of an organization. Unless, they are in charge of that organization.
I'd think long and hard about number two. Because it can always be argued that you aren't the good Christian. Stay with number one. You are only responsible for your own actions.
For number three, same advice as number two."Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?" - Matthew 7:16.
I rebuke any "Christian" who uses violence as an excuse to solve a problem. Usually it's the same "Christians" who advocate violence, that in the same breath say that the OT laws are now void and that we can eat shellfish wrapped in bacon, and then go on to say "eye for an eye..."!
Hypocrisy.Hypocrisy? I agree. However, all Christians use the Bible to justify their actions and it is unfair to insist that some are Christian while others who don't agree with you aren't. This desire to judge others permeates religion. You read a book, interpret what you have read through the cumulative experiences of your individual life and deem your interpretation the universal voice of a deity. And then proceed to share your thoughts as if only your interpretation is correct.
One thing I found fascinating about the teachings of Jesus was how he tried to explain how difficult it is to judge sin. How almost everything is sin, if you think about it long enough and carry the beginning of judgement to its logical conclusion. The whole point was to stop judging. God stopped judging man first; according to the Gospels. I wonder how long it will take humanity to follow suit. Because judging another, on any spiritual level, is the greatest hypocrisy of all.However, all Christians use the Bible to justify their actions
That is simply not true. Some might think they're Christian when they justify their actions with scripture, but does that make them Christian? Any time we bend scripture to mean what we want it to mean, it becomes something less than scripture, and we become less than Christian.
and it is unfair to insist that some are Christian while others who don't agree with you aren't.
I never said anyone here wasn't a Christian. I don't make assumptions like that about people I don't know, but it is quite obvious that the people involved in the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition were not Christians. How can anyone kill in the name of Jesus and honestly call themselves a Christian? They can't, because it isn't what Jesus taught!
This desire to judge others permeates religion. You read a book, interpret what you have read through the cumulative experiences of your individual life and deem your interpretation the universal voice of a deity. And then proceed to share your thoughts as if only your interpretation is correct.
It doesn't matter what my interpretation is, I'm still just as wrong as anyone here. I'm a sinner, too. "Of a truth, I die daily!" (1 Corinthians 15:31). Only God is right, and if I am speaking of my own behalf, I am wrong.
But I am telling you, the meaning of the word judgment has lost it's sting. Rebuke/reproof is not judgment. Judgment is more of a "final" thing, like death, or condemnation. I am not sentencing anyone to death or condemning them to hell. Calling out the fake Christians for who they are, is not judgment!
"He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding." - Proverbs 15:32.Who are you to rebuke, offer reproof, or call out fake Christians? I think you missed the point.
No need to question yourself, you're right, he missed the point.
Every Christian has the responsibility to do so.
"This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;" - Titus 1:13See, that's what I find humorous. Do you guys ever quote the guy you are named after? I'd be curious where he told you to run about attempting to ride herd over the rest of the world.
Jesus rebuked His disciples quite often.
It doesn't matter that I'm a sinner too. What matters is, if I point out a sin you commit, and you ignore me... Hey, I did my part, and that's all I can do. But if you find a fault with me, and I do nothing about it? I'm at fault, not you. It works both ways, and I am not ashamed to be wrong once in a while.
So when I say that the Crusades and Inquisition were not products of commandments from Jesus, I can prove it with scripture, and I have.
Anyone who does violence in the name of Christ is a liar if they call themselves Christian. Why make this about me, now?Christians aren't Christ and they weren't called to be disciples. It's a bit egotistical to compare oneself to any of them. It's about like someone who believes in reincarnation insisting they were Napoleon or Cleopatra. Or a buddhist claiming they are the buddha. Visions of grandeur are like oil to the water of spirituality.
Christians aren't Christ and they weren't called to be disciples.
Uhh, no. All Christians are called to be disciples of Christ. You know, the whole "great commission" thing? Jesus was very specific about not being violent, and I am talking specifically about violence.
Rebuke/reproof isn't violence. My words aren't going to give anyone a black eye, though they may feel their pride has suffered a few dings.
And, what gives you the right to point out sins?
That's nice, those who were involved with the Crusades and Inquisitions can just as easily produce commandments from Jesus to justify their atrocities. So what?And, what gives you the right to point out sins?
So now you believe in sins? I thought you said there is no such thing as sin? Or does that only apply to you? Why don't you take responsibility for your actions! lol.
That's nice, those who were involved with the Crusades and Inquisitions can just as easily produce commandments from Jesus to justify their atrocities. So what?
No they can't, and neither can you. Show me where Jesus said it was okay to kill anyone, ever?Well it does say to confess your sins to one another. Jesus Tauht against murder so genocide can not be upheld by his teaching. held
Most thinking people use reason, rationale, logic and critical thinking skills to develop morals and ethics of which they abide in order to remain honest with themselves, hence totally avoiding the need to confess anything.
And, while I'm quite sure you can find verses in the bible to show Jesus was against killing others, or can you?
Didn't Jesus state that the old laws still applied and that He was there to uphold them? Wouldn't that mean all the child abuse, murder, slavery still apply?"t thinking people use reason, rationale, logic and critical thinking skills to develop morals and ethics of which they abide in order to remain honest with themselves, hence totally avoiding the need to confess anything. "
-Amusing thought, A Troubled Man! If that is how people develop morals, then it's so damn easy for them to modify those morals when they have the need! Do you understand what that is? You are free to choose moral that fits your purpose! LOL!
It's better to trust a hardcore Christian than you. He will not change color when you need his help.And yet, what we actually find is exactly opposite of that.
People modify their morals when they have the need all the time. Everyone does it, even Christians. In the end it doesn't matter what label someone puts on themselves, their character shows what type of person they really are.
Earlier you stated that Jesus rebuked Satan...?? Not Peter...
So which is it?Oh ye of little faith, let this strengthen you:
God rebuked Satan in that one instance, but Jesus also rebuked Peter, telling him that he would deny his Lord no less than 3 times before the sunrise rooster.
And that is exactly what happened.
Some things are things of this world, and some things are of the next. If you can't learn to differentiate the two while reading the bible, you need to read it again. You missed something, and really need to pray and re-read it.
Every human is pretty evil all on their own, but the root cause of all this is Satan.
"Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." - John 19:11.
Not only is God taking personal responsibility for everything, and planned to personally die in your place for your sins, He also has a plan for Satan who is the cause of all this.
There are spiritual things, and there are heavenly things, and our battle, our common enemy, is none other than Satan. He is not a friend, a mis-understood rogue, or even just a force or type/representation of evil. He's an actual entity, and very deliberate in trying to get people to hate God.
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." - Ephesians 6:12.
Have you ever read the book of Job? Did you notice what Satan's goal was, when he talked to God and said, "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face." - Job 1:11.
All Satan is trying to do, is get you to spiritually die. Wake up!I know what the bible says...I was asking about your comment...
And Jesus telling Peter he would deny him three times was not a rebuke, but a prophesy...Prophecy, which is the truth, is rebuke of the lies. Peter said he wouldn't deny his Lord, and yet Jesus said otherwise. That's a rebuke.
re·buke/riˈbyo͞ok/Verb: Express sharp disapproval or criticism of (someone) because of their behavior or actions.
proph·e·cy/ˈpräfəsē/Noun: 1.A prediction of what will happen in the future.
Poor Peter was only human...He couldn't see how he could deny Jesus...Yet Jesus knew he would...Interestingly enough...That story varies somewhat depending on which Gospel you read it in...
Jesus didn't rebuke him...Just told him of what was to come.Can light co-exist with darkness? Can a lie stand in the place of truth?
No, it can not.
Prophecy is truth. The truth is bold, and rebukes lies. Peter, was a liar, and the truth rebuked him. Peter eventually saw how unrighteous that he really was, for saying something that isn't true. The words of vanity such as "I'll follow you anywhere, Jesus" can't possibly be true if what Jesus said is completely contradictory to that.
Breaking the bible down, in order to prove itself wrong, is exactly what religion does. They try and separate prophecy, as something separate from any of the actual stories, along with everything else in the bible. We even have it in two "major parts" -- "old" and "new" testaments? It's one story, and "Christians" are Jews, without the traditions. Jews are Christians, without the freedom in Christ.
The truth of the matter, is very challenging to anyone's world-view. That is why it is so hard to accept it as true. It is much easier to say "I'm right" rather than "God is right". It is very hard to admit that we're wrong about what God says.
Churches will make you jump through hoops in order to be forgiven, but God just wants you to admit that you're wrong. He does exist, and He does love you, and you are wrong about Him.Not when His alleged words are written for all to see, which shows God as nothing short of a despot/dictator.
Then, the words in the Bible are wrong about Him.
God was always in control even though he allowed Jesus to die to cover the price of inherited sin.
Satan was rebuked during the fast as he told Jesus to throw himself from the mountains knowing that Angels were charged with his safety until he decided his work was done. JESUS said we are not to tempt God by requiring of him when not necessary.Peter was rebuked by Jesus because he questioned the severity or urgency of a part of Jesus mission and Peter was rebuked for violence when he cut off the ear of a soldier who came to capture Jesus.
taking any religious idea taken too seriously is concern not, christianity or islam o ....only Idea which taken too seriously and is still guaranteed non violent is jainism.....
Jainism is more false doctrine based on attaining some type of enlightenment without the benefit of God. The created being is not above the Creator (YHVH), nor is the created being able to sustain itself without the life-giving qualities of the Creator.
Without God, we die, and God sustains even those who hate Him simply to give them time to repent and be saved.@ceegen false or true is not the point...all religions are false...atleast jains have never been violent in history of 5k yrs.....we arent debating that...what we r debating is whether christianity can be blamed...as per my opinion any religious doctrine taken too seriously can bring animal out of us....that was point...Jainism doctrine is based on non violence...if taken too seriously it is guaranteed that there wont be violence...thats point...
And my point is that Jesus both taught and lived a life of non-violence, even to the point of forgiving His murderers. Anyone who isn't following that example, is a liar, not a follower of Jesus Christ.
What does Jainism have to do with Jesus? Why even mention it? Especially if you're just going to go and say that "all religions are false"?@ceegen bcoz jesus could not teach to his followers about how to live non violently....only jainsm proved it...that y mentioned...what jesus said is immaterial considering christian past...what chirstians did is more impt...u can put it in different way...jesus was weak teacher in comparison
What kind of nonsense are you spewing? None of the apostles were violent. They were all martyred for their faith in Christ at the hands of Romans and Jews.
What apostles did you read about? Peter, who in his nonviolence, cut off a guard's ear? Oh, wait, maybe Paul...who murdered followers of Christ before he converted.
Are you a recent convert?"But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he [Jesus] rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men." - Mark 8:33.
Are you a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?Hmmm.
Again with the concept of 'once it's forgiven, it never happened and doesn't need to be acknowledged.'
Why do you think Peter was rebuked by Jesus in that moment if not for his violent act? The only thing you've proven with this verse is that Jesus abhorred violence, not that Peter wasn't a violent person.Maybe Peter wasn't a violent person, which is why Jesus was rebuking Satan, and not Peter. Demonic influences drive people to do evil things, and the evil in us all loves to give in to doing evil things.
Why is doing the right thing, always the hardest thing to do?That, my friend, seems to be the ultimate question. One to which we may never have the answer to, I'm afraid.
Oh no, it's an easy question to answer, m'dear! Just go look in the book of Genesis, and say "Gee, thanks a lot, Adam."
Adam knew better and sinned anyway. Eve was tricked into sinning. Both sinned, and both tried blaming someone else. Eve blamed the snake instead of taking responsibility, and Adam blamed Eve instead of taking responsibility.
But such is the curse of having free will...Christians blame Satan instead of taking responsibility. Notice that your religion has taught you all about not taking responsibility and how to shift the burden to a third party.
Christians blame Satan instead of taking responsibility. Notice that your religion has taught you all about not taking responsibility and how to shift the burden to a third party.
I do not shift the blame of anything wrong I have done in the past to Satan, but Satan is not exempt from the cause of temptation which provides an avenue for sin.So, why did Adam, who lived in a perfect world and walked every day with a perfect God do wrong in the first place? What was his excuse?
So, why did Adam, who lived in a perfect world and walked every day with a perfect God do wrong in the first place? What was his excuse?
"And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat." - Genesis 3:12.
Adam blamed Eve for his sin! Can you believe that?
Sadly some churches are still doing that to this day. Yeah, Eve sinned too, so it's not like either one of their sins canceled out the other's. It was their own free-will fault, and both are guilty of sin, man and woman.
@motown oh yes ...i forgot peter...the first pope...no wonder
BRETHREN, STOP FIGHTING! Dont we ALL fall short from The Lord? Every man/woman, has different views, as long as we have a relationship with the most high, who cares what another thinks?
@ceegen nonsense?...ok let me put in simple way so that it makes sense to u.....jesus was cool guy...he was non violent....did his followers indulge in violence?....YES.....when?....when they had power ....e.g. witch hunting , crusades....in same way u can have in all faiths...
Jainism did mahavir preach non violence?....YES...did his followers indulge in violence ?....Never...
i hope now it makes sense to u...history never lies...Jesus preached but could not successfully teach his followers ...Mahavir preached 500 yrs before jesus was born and his message is followed till date by his followers...history doesnot lie...does it?...Makes sense?...
I love jesus by the way and i love mahavir too...cool guys..If a person even thinks about doing violence to someone, they are guilty of it. Because if you can think it, you can do it.
"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5:28.
So who knows how many Jainists thought of doing evil to their fellow human? Only God knows our thoughts.@ceegen u r missing the point...what ur scripture says is meaning less and so is what jesus said...Test of teacher is not what he says but what his students do...He failed like all other faith's teachers ...quoting goody goody things from scriptures actually shows jesus is poor light...it shows his followers had no respect for his words in front of what they wanted to do...it belittles jesus...He was really good guy...
ur second pt is taken...no body knows about thought of doing stuff...that applies to christians too...what differs is jain's strict adherence to non violence on the court where not only christians but all other faiths which shockingly include buddism too had failed...so point is christianity cannot be blamed...it is taking faith too seriously that can invoke animal to defend that faith...thats to blame...Again, if all religions are false as you say, why do you continue to advocate Jainism? You don't make any sense.
@ceegen
jainism is faith rooted in nonviolence...so if we come across fanatic jain, only thing u can be sure of is that he is nonviolent...m not promoting jainism...though if u ask me to choose between fanatic hindu or muslim or christian or jain with perceptive of world peace , i would go with fanatic jain then hindu then christian then muslim...in that order...why ?...jain is based on non violence, hindu is based on coexistence and multiple path , christians are less into faith and more into reason these day and muslims are for all to c...
i am not advocating jainism,,,My point was and is that faith when taken too seriously can bring animal out of humans...does this point have evidence?....yes countless through out history...that my only point...
in end no religion needs to be pursued over reason , coexistence ,civility and human life...
Let us remember that anger is provoked mostly due to injustices but it can be sin depending on how we act on it. Jesus showed us how to find enlightenment and liberation thus helping us to deal with religious and governments injustices without sin and faith in the strength to endure or place what oppresses us under submission thru Gods power.
"Blame all Christians!"
But I don't wanna blame all Christians.- Justsilvieposted 12 years ago0
Yeah well, Catholic doctrine does that to people. It's why I'm not a Catholic, but I didn't just throw baby Jesus out with the dirty bathwater.
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You answered your topic question! There are within the religious belief called Christianity sub groups who call themselves "The Christians" who have no respect for anyone else's belief even within the Christian umbrella, Theirs is the only valid view. They also assume all people hate Christians, as they assume they speak for all Christians. Just gets tiresome ducking their flying bibles and their self self righteous droning!I know exactly what you mean.
As a kid, my dad had me go to a Christian Science church. Later on my mother took me to a Mormon church. Needless to say, I was a very confused child. How can all these different sects, each be claiming to be the only "way" to heaven? I thought the only way, was through Jesus Christ? It really made me hate religion, and I didn't understand why.
You'd think more people would catch on to that.
So even I get attacked by other Christians, who wanting to hold on to their doctrine over what Jesus Christ actually says, yell at me for pointing out their sins?
Quite frankly, I am just as sick of it as most of you all are. And in the beginning of my journey to Christ, I found that these people are nothing more than wolves in sheep's clothing. They're just as much doubters as the supposed sinners they claim you all are. They're comfortable in sending you all to hell, to satisfy some misguided sense of pride that they're the only ones on the right path.
It's pure lunacy, I tell you.
Personally, I've never seen the logic in blaming an entire group of people for the actions of some. People are individuals and should be held accountable for their own actions, not the actions of others.
Thank you for actually seeing the point in all of this, I really appreciate your open-minded view of this subject matter. I am very glad that you even went so far as to not even get religious about it, because that is my whole point:
Even if you're not religious, you can at the very least, see the folly in condemning a whole group of people for the actions of a few. It's what led to so many misguided quests, that has resulted in millions of unnecessary deaths. What for, really?
What a strange, strange world we live in.
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