Many people in this World seem to have many different ideas about what a Christian is or should be.
What do you think a genuine Christian Is?
What does the life of a genuine Christian look like?
And what is the standard to make such a determination?
A Christian is someone who is convited by the Holy Spirit and realizes s/he is a sinner, believes that Jesus is the Son of God, born of the Virgin Mary, then lived a sinless life and was then curcified and rose again on the third then He decended to Heaven, and then asks Him for forgiveness and asks Him to be his personal Lord and Savior. The person will then prove that commitment by baptism. Showing to the world he is dead to his old life and is resurrected with Christ. He will then do the best he possibly can to become more Christ-like with each passing day. S/he does this by prayer, personal devotion, fellowship with other Christians, etc. Christians are not perfect, they are forgiven by God's mercy. Jesus Christ is the standard. I see alot of people trying to say that Christ is all love etc. But, when you read the Bible you find that yes, God is love but also that He demands certain things of His followers if they are to go to Heaven (really be a Christian) The things I told you are then only way to Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ. This is not my opinoin, this is God's Word. For those of you who do not believe me, you can go to the nearest motel and find a Gideon's Bible there and research it for yourself. You do not go to Heaven by simply being a good person and loving people. That is a lie and so easy to want to follow. There is One Name given by Heaven whereby you must be saved, the Name Christ Jesus. A fool has said in his heart there is no God. They are corrupt. When people tell non-Christians how to get to Heaven, they are often accused of judging. Explaining how to get to Heaven is not judging, it's loving other people and not wanting them to go to hell. It is only with compassion that Christians explain how to go to Heaven. They love you and do not want to see you live forever in hell. That is not juding, that is loving.
"All Shook Up" Excuse me, why exactly would a person who is a "good person" and "loves people" not be entitled to go to heaven? Wake up, that is what religion should be all about and what Jesus or any decent God would want!!! Strangely enough, as a Pagan I don't believe in Hell anyway, simply Karmic justice and living the best life you possibly can by other people and yourself to ensure spiritual advancement. We don't need to be saved from "Hell", and it isn't compassion that makes most Christians tell us this, it is trying to get us to agree with their opinion, that actually has little evidence to back it up other than a dusty, frequently mistranslated, and conveniently quoted book. Let's never forget most Christian Churches are built on former Pagan sites, and that the so called images of the "Devil" are based on horned Pagan Gods such as "Pan", who pre-dated Christianity by many centuries if not longer. The easy way to convert Pagans to Christianity was to use their sites for Christian Churches, and portray their Gods as being images of "Satan". Look it up on the net if you doubt these words, and I have many Christian friends who agree with these facts even if they do have a love for Christ, (who probably was a great Prophet at least).
We don't need to be saved from "Hell", and it isn't compassion that makes most Christians tell us this, it is trying to get us to agree with their opinion, that actually has little evidence to back it up other than a dusty, frequently mistranslated, and conveniently quoted book.
I was wondering. Since you have discounted the Bible as authority for the "Christian," what is your authority for your Paga belief?
Ben - may I tell you a true story?
I had been working in India for a spell and then had to travel to Beaverton, near Portland, Oregon. The journey took 48 hours on 5 planes and I arrived pretty tired, but hungry. I sat down for dinner at my hotel and a couple at the next table asked me to join them as I was on my own. I didn't want to intrude, but they insisted, so I did. It turned out this was their wedding anniversary, and once a year (only) they came into town for a meal in the hotel. Again, of course, I offered not to intrude on their special day, but again they insisted.
We got talking and they couldn't really grasp the idea of traveling the world, but they were fascinated. The conversation, after they'd realised I'd really just arrived from India went like this:
Couple - Out there in India, I guess they're all good Christian folks?
Para - Well, not really. Mostly they're Hindus but there's also a big Muslim population. There are Buddhists and Christians too, but not so many.
Couple - But all these Hindus and Muslims out there - they're all good Christian folks, ain't they?
Para - Yes, just like us, really.
Now, for me, that couple were true Christians - meaning that they were good people who lived well, believed no ill of anyone, and only wanted to know the world was full of 'good Christian folks' like themselves. They had taken the best of Christianity - love thy neighbour as thyself - and were disposed to live by it. They didn't know the first thing about Hindus or Muslims but just assumed they'd all get along just fine.
Referring to the other thread, they were not Christianists.
Your conclusion that they were "good people" and that the "best of Christianity" (Love thy neighbor as thyself) is based on what standard?
What standard, Ben? Common humanity. They were good people because they wished to do no harm to anyone and to live in peace.
As for why is "Love thy neighbour as thyself" the best of Christianity? - Reportedly, Jesus added only that one commandment to the first of the ten and said, in effect, it encompassed all the rest.
Personally, I live without the first commandment, seeing no reason to believe in any god, but believe Jesus's new commandment to love your neighbour as yourself is good, if difficult.
And back to my couple - I would say they had more love for their neighbour (hospitality to me, a stranger, predisposition to love the Hindus and Muslims) than is shown by those we're calling Christianists. So, what further 'standard' do I need? They said they were Christians. I believed them.
What you have said about loving your neighbor is fine. However, that is not what Jesus said. In fact, Jesus conditioned loving your neighbor on loving Him first. He told His Disciples and others in John 14:15, "If you love me, keep my commandments." You cannot separate Jesus from His commandment. Loving others is Loving Him. And loving Him is Loving your neighbor.
Why are you telling me what I can and can't do? I don't necessarily think there was a historical Jesus, but there might have been. That doesn't alter the fact that the Jesus in the book is reported to have said we should love our neighbours as ourselves. I think that's good practical advice. Why do you have a problem with that?
The world is full of decent folk who try to 'do unto others, etc' because they know it's the best way to live. Many of them have never heard of Jesus. But my friends in Beaverton would still call them good Christian folk.
You seem unconvinced that people can live decently independent of Jesus. I find that strange.
This post is about the life of a Genuine Christian. If you want to separate Christ from being a Christian, you can attempt such logical suicide if you must. But please, don't expect me to go along with your incompatable statements.
Since when can you be a Christian without identifying with Christ.
If you want to pick and choose the sayings of Christ, feel free to. But don't expect me to do the same.
This thread is not about how someone else from another religion lives. It's about Christians and how they live or don't live and their authority for doing so.
You seem a little touchy
The point I've been making from the start is that the world is full of people who live a good life, in peace with their neighbours and wishing no ill to anyone. Some such people call themselves Christians and have the right to do so.
But you know, lots of them don't believe in the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, the ascension, even the resurrection. Some do, some don't. And it doesn't mater, because their beliefs are their own business. Don't you think it would be slightly rude to challenge these good Christian folk against your creed and perhaps declare them non-Christian?
Don't you think it would be ruder still to set fire to them? It's happened before.
Not touchy, just trying to stay on topic. It's too easy to go many other directions.
Rude? No more rude than you challenging me against your creed.
Which I have not done and have no intention of doing.
You started the thread by asking "What is a genuine Christian?" Was that because you wanted to know or because you wanted to tell?
I don't have a creed, by the way.
Maybe it's just a metter of semantics. What exactly have you done?
Are you on this thread because you want to know or want to tell?
Everyone has a creed. Otherwise you have no basis to say or do anything.
What have I done? - taken the conversation where I saw fit. I was interested to hear what you would think of the Beaverton couple's philosophy, or whether you would not consider them 'proper' Christians. I'm still not sure where you stand on that one.
I'm happy to explore, to wander. No particular agenda.
But you directly contradict me again. If I say I don't have a creed, it's because I don't. If that's a troubling concept, check out my hub called Freedom from Belief, rather than just telling me "everyone has a creed".
Paraglider, from the hub you recommended,
Reconcile what - the final comment "At least, that's what I believe!!" ? That's what's called a joke - you know, when you say something deliberately incongruous with the intention of raising a smile. The double exclamation points are a Strong Hint that I was making a Joke
Speaking of incongruity, please explain how that which is tautological (that which is known - science) can be applied to a non tautological field (that which is unknowable- pseudoscience - wisdom, fairness, legislation, religion, society)
I think you have not yet understood the Criterion of Demarcation. You see, "that which is tautological" is diametrically opposed to science. Tautological fields are, for example, arithmetic and logic. Also certain branches of mathematics. Fields where you start with a few fundamental axioms or principles (e.g. commutative, i.e. AxB = BxA and distributive, i.e. n(A+B) = nA + nB, the existence of unity e.g. 1A = A and of zero e.g. 0A = 0, the indefinability of division by zero, and the definition, x^0 = 1) Within such a field, you can prove complicated equalities. But such equalities are tautologies and are shown to be so by the fact you can prove them to be equalities.
Science (if you'd understood my hub) is not "that which is known" but "that which has been proposed in falsifiable form but has not yet been falsified"
Now, taking your list:
pseudoscience - leave it well alone. It is the stuff of e-books. False statistics, false claims and general mumbo-jumbo.
pre-science (which you didn't mention) - fields where there is still insufficient knowledge or data to allow for falsifiable hypotheses, but which are beginning to yield to our best efforts. Some may remain forever too complex for analysis.
wisdom - rationality tempered with compassion
fairness - applied rationality coupled with explanation
legislation - fairness (above) derived probabilistically
religion - no worries, but keep it to yourself or inside your own church
society - all of the above
Hindus believe there is no need to change your religion or faith as all are good and lead to God.Infact it is foolish to change or convert someone as it is an insult to the persons Religion.The teachings are basically the same.
There is no need to change your faith,
And on your old religion lay a wreath.
Its is wrong to blame the religion as the religion does not encourage violence.To justify his wrong act he says its gods will,why should god or the religion be blamed for the wrong doing of some person.
There have been good and bad people of all religions Hindus,Christians or Muslims.
OK Ben, I have a few questions for you first before I answer this question that was directed at me.
allshookup has given a pretty adequate explanation of what a genuine christian is not.
What do you think is a genuine christian?
I have looked at your hubs, most of which are re-produced from elsewhere (I don't know if you wrote them yourself) , and I have looked at your blog, which seems to be saying the same things and uses the same income generators.
Are you here to discuss and learn or are you here to tell me what the TRUTH is?
Your questions are perfectly fine, Mark.
As far as my hubs, every hub has been written by me. If not, I'll say so and give credit to the genuine author. The same for my blog.
As to the reason I'm here, who says that it has to be one or the other? Can it possibly be both to discuss and learn as well as to tell you or anyone else what the truth is?
Ultimately, my original question didn't just deal with thoughts on what a Genuine Christian is. It also included the standard or authority for anyone and everyone making such pronouncements.
It's easy for you and I or anyone else to make any type of statement we like, but the authority for such is automatically included. It cannot be ignored.
If you went to my blog as you say, then you probably say the post entitled "Final Authority." Everyone has a final authority they depend on. Is it authoritative enough?
The fact is, that I can learn from just about anyone. This doesn't mean that I follow them or what they have said. It may be nothing more than that they have added to my body of knowledge and/or understanding. But even then, I can still make determinations about the veracity or efficacy of their statements. Someone may tell me a lie, yet it may prove valuable to me. On the other hand, I may be of value to somone else by what I say or do. I don't look at myself as necessary in the growth or maturation of someone else. If I am used in that way, great! If not, great!
Ben - this is what your profile says:
Which rather suggests that you already have the Truth.
Standard and authority?
I make my own standards and authority.
And you did not answer my question
Mark and Misha,,
I fail to see what it is I need to reconcile. I am here to promote Truth. Does that imply that I think I possess Truth? Yes, it does. Does that mean that I possess all Truth. Obviously not. The fact that think I possess a certain amount of Truth in no way means that I am precluded from discussing any topic and increasing knowledge and understanding. In fact, the promotion of Truth demands that I "be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger." (James 1:19)
Of course, my quote of a Bible verse announces my authority for what I say on this post.
By saying that you are your own authority, are you saying that you are the origin of that authority?
As far as answering your question, I presume that you, as a professional blogger, will understand my refraining (for now) from answering the question on the basis of being the originator of this post.
However, at a later time, you may back me into a corner and force my hand.
So, I am a little confused. You know the Truth (with a capital letter to distinguish it from the truth) but not all Truth?
That is a good quote. I like that. I am quick to hear, quick to read between the lines, quick to speak, and extremely sloooooow to anger myself.
Authority? You have some authority? What sort of authority, may I ask?
Better than mine?
Bigger? More powerful? Stronger? Explain please.
No, not really. I answer all questions on what I write - as soon as I can. Or I delete the question
You can bank on it.
Whenever you are ready.
Why did you ask me this question, and what is your answer?
Well, if you can't see the logical contradiction between those two statements serious discussion with you seems impossible. We still can have fun at your expense though, which is better than nothing
Great comment! I must admit a certain amount of laughter myself at that one.
The reason I say that there's nothing to reconcile is because the process of discussing and learning is part of the promotion of Truth. If God can use a Jackass to speak to His stubborn Prophet, then using another person, regardless of there status before Him, is well within His ability. So, I am careful to acknowledge the possiblity of learning from anyone, even though they may not be someone I seek out for advice.
If you need an example of Truth, look to Jesus, who called Himself Truth. I believe His actions speak loud enough when it comes to His treatment of others. Though Jesus was the living incarnation of all TRUTH, he nevertheless, received those who were rejected by society's elite.
A Genuine Christian is simply someone who has been reconciled to God and Jesus through repentance and belief in the sacrifical death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for their sins.
Just because I said I know Truth doesn't mean that I know all Truth. All Truth is the realm of God. Deity and Omniscience are beyond my capabilities.
As the creator of your own authority, over what areas of your life does this authority extend. All areas? Or is it limited? And why?
My authority is from God as revealed in His Word.
I consider myself a genuine Christian although we all have faults. Sometimes my anger gets the best of me.
I certainly do not want to see anyone nuked Misha.
Hint for Paraglider - the New Covenant.
Mark when you take into context the Christian belief in everlasting life then allshookup is fairly accurate. Christianity is more about getting to Heaven than it has to do with this life on Earth although what we do on Earth determines whether we get to Heaven. Please do not take this as an insult because it is not meant to be one.
Mike - not offended in any way whatsoever.
allshookup on the other hand - does believe nukes are an appropriate use of resources.
And I am not so sure christianity is all about getting into heaven rather than this life. You may read it that way, but I certainly do not.
That is what Christianity means to me and most Christians Mark, getting to Heaven.
I have not read that allshookup believes that nukes are an appropriate use of force. If that is actually what she believes then she is following a false prophet. There is no other way to say it.
From another thread.
And yes - I know that is what christianity means to many
That is scary.
No wonder I see what I sometimes think is your attack on Christianity with quotes like allshookup's.
I'll say it again, she is following a false prophet.
I am very glad to hear that Mark.
This is my main "attack" on christians and christianity. If she and others like her practiced what the bible preached, we would not be having this discussion.
Jesus didn't mean us to be fighting wars in His name. Wrong - All wrong. Yet there are many like her.
Please post a link tol that thread. I cannot find it. I see your quote, but I want to see the context. I see a lot of trash talk, and I'd rather see the facts, not stabs in the back. I can see what may have been meant by that comment, but I want to see the conversation before i take sides. Thanks, Mark.
Sure, vd - this is the entire quote:
And this is the thread that you could not be bothered to find:
You know, the one where I was "backstabbing" some one ?
Facts. You mean "facts" that the bible contains? Or real facts?
Which, as you well know, I started as a joke against this person:
Who started numerous threads in a similar vein. Yet was closed because of your personal attacks on me?
How very christian of you......
Exactly. It's nice that we can finally agree on something Mark.
By the way, you'd make a good Christian preacher.
This is my opinion of your questions.
I think that the post from allshookup is quite good. I do not think it is easy to answer for the critics here all about what a Christian is. The Bible is the main part of what a Christian is. the Bible is 100% true, and it is infallible. So, I believe that a Christian is seeking to rectify all the word of the Bible and live by it to the best we can, and we need to be very, very good at that.
I would add to allshookup's post that it is important to help others. Of course, allshookup and I and everyone else I know could not capture everything. This is because the holy spirit lives in all of us, and that is a living part of us, not just written instruction. God is omnipotent and omnipresent, so there is no way for anyone to truly know God. So, that keeps our wisdom growing, too.
Like allshookup said, there are immense misperceptions that come from an incomplete knowledge of the Bible. I find all the time that non Christians tell me what I should do to be a Christian. If I am not doing what I should, I know it already. I have never gotten one good piece of advice on that from a non Christian. This is far, far more complex than a non Christian could ever dream.
Why bother, though, Ben? I doubt if any of the non Christians want to learn a single thing about Christians. It is easier to just say who they should be, according to their misperceptions. Christians have the Bible to help them get it right if they are not there yet.
Wanting to learn is not the problem. That fact is that they have learned plenty about other Christians. And what they've learned repels them from most things "Christian." Can you blame them?
It's easy to point a finger at someone who doesn't profess to know Christ. BUt the problem isn't them. It's the Christians. There's nothing wrong with admitting that many Christians are jerks, because they are! Hiding behind the fact that they are just sinners and are not perfect doesn't cut it, either, because that's obvious to everyone.
There's nothing wrong with saying that many Christans have no clue about what they are talking about, because many don't have a clue. They only parrot what they've heard from a pulpit. And when it comes to explaining their core beliefs to any degree, they can't. And most are too proud and stubborn to admit it. And they won't take the time to shut their mouths and study their own handbook.
And when it comes to receiving hostile words and actions from non believers, many Christians are simply reaping what they've sown to the non believers.
No wonder there are so many ideas of what a Genuine Christian is. Because they really don't see the one thing that Jesus said the World would know that we were HIs disciple: love. We seem to be too busy bashing everyone.
I understand what you are saying, but we deserve much of what we get from others, our pious rhetoric notwithstanding.
I think the distinction comes in here about people vs Christians. Grouping me in with some prejudice - sorry but any grouping is just that - is crazy. That is what we fought the civil rights battles over in the 60s and 70s.
Ask a black person what black people are like, and you will get an answer if he trusts you. Tell a black man that it is right to say black men are a mess and deserve to be looked that way should get your butt kicked. Your logic sounds pretty good on the surface, but is very dangerous on the street. No, I cannot buy your argument there.
I didn't group you in with anyone. I apologize if I wasn't clear anough. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular.
As far as understanding the streets, I hear that type of statement. SInce my wife and I homeschool our children, I am always getting concerned Christians on my case because I shelter my children from real life. I politely remind them that I do concrete work for a living and my boys have always worked with me. I remind them that my boys and I must go on construction sites on a regular basis. I usually stop at that point because they realize that their point doesn't hold water.
I've dealt with Christians who have wounded their own and have no remorse for doing so. I have spoke to criminals and excons who can and have told there stories at the hands of so called Christians. I've seen some of it first hand. I've experienced alot first hand.
I've been in the midst of what Jesus would have referred to as "A brood of Vipers". I'm not overreacting.
Getting my butt kicked for legitimate Truth? I'm not worried about it. I've learned that many times, you don't have to say anything to a Christian to get Him angry. He already knows the Truth and what He's doing wrong in relation to others. I've had people get angry at me for doing nothing more than not going along with what they were doing. I said nothing.
In fact, when it comes to the streets, most street people would rather hear it straight than have to muddle through any nuanced mumbo jumbo. They may not like it initially, but ultimately, they prefer the Truth. That way, they know exactly where you're coming from. Guessing games are eliminated.
Did I say that we are to go around speaking roughly to everyone? No! Jesus says to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. Speaking the truth in love demands it.
I hope this helps to clarify what I said.
Nice try. As I recall, the thread was closed by your attacks. Ha ha, no one was blamed. You are losing credibility when you just make up crap. I think you can do better.
Well, I am sure that they just forgot the other half of this story, huh? I am sure that no one intended to decieve the readers of this thread by posting half the sotry. No, no one would do that. Not on the revered Hubpages forums, huh? Give me a break, will ya? Here is part two, which was "accidentally" ommitted. Yeah, right, sure...
"Also, nukes can be used for making a point. Threatening. Not killing. To make them listen."
Now that we've unequivocally established the correct definition of a Christian, let's turn to the issue of the type of a life lived by a Christian.
The main one discussed so far has to do with killing and murder.
There have been many assertions on this post about the wrongness of Christian Killing.
1. What is your authority for such an assertion?
2. What makes your authority compelling enough to have others listen to you and agree?
3. What makes you authority applicable to others?
We've done no such thing.
1. Common humanity
2. Common humanity
3. Common humanity
Some of us do not need to appeal to any higher authority than consensus of the civilised majorities of the world. Killing in some circumstances may be necessary (e.g. when under lethal attack) but intentionally going out to kill (warmongering, murdering) are clearly wrong.
I was not aware that we had unequivocally established anything. I know you want to get to the meat of your authority, so you can tell us the Truth, but we really need to do some more establishing before we move on to that.
Answers to your questions:
2. It makes sense
3. Nothing. Others will continue to decide to read the bible so it says what they want it to say. If that means "dominion over the animals," means "shoot and drill them into extinction," to them, nothing I say will convince that person otherwise. They believe in god, they read the bible, they have all the facts they need. They know the Truth. Therefore they are Right. That is what God said. Just look at what vd is saying. If that is christian behavior, I want none of it.
Any more than your authority holds any sway over me. But I apply a different standard than most christians.
I don't ask myself, "Is that what it says in the bible?"
I ask, "Does that make sense to me?"
So, as an example, it may indeed say in the bible that man has dominion over the animals. But it doesn't make sense to me that it comes with no responsibilities.
Which makes the bible a faulty authority as far as I am concerned. If it was actually god's word, he would have known we would in a position where we are extinguishing entire species by our poor behavior, and it would say something about that. It doesn't - why not? Because it is man's word. Written by arrogant people who could never see the day when the polar bears could become extinct.
Careful, now! You might be thinking more like God than you give yourself credit for.
In fact, God did foresee a time in which conditions would be as you say. And as far as responsibility, Revelation 11:18 says that when Jesus comes back to this earth, He will "destroy them which destroy the earth."
I would caution against transferring to the Bible what its adherents claim or actually perform......or the lack thereof. As has been stated on this and other posts, People have performed atrocities while quoting Scripture as their authority. That doesn't make their actions right. And it doesn't make their understanding or use of the Scripture right.
In this particular example you and God are in agreement. Of course, I would presume that God's thought on the subject preceded yours, unless you have evidence to the contrary.
Well, that is one line cropped out of a huge swath of text and there is an awful lot of conquering, killing and burning in that piece. Is that where the Spanish Inquisition got the idea that burning at the stake was god's will?
Although, I think we are in agreement to a certain extent. Most people claiming to be christians are not actually christians.
Myself - I do not believe there is a god, but if you have some evidence to the contrary......
Which is also why I refuse to quote the bible. People then hear exactly what they want to hear, and I have been accused of believing before, so I keep away from it. I say what I have just said and quote from the bible, and people hear, 'He believes the same thing I do. He says we should kill all the animals. Glory!"
I also mirror Paraglider's sentiments. I am not a christian. I do not need to be a christian to live what I consider to be a "good christian," life
I am not worried about going to heaven. Speaking of which - Mike - yes, we can agree on some things
My 'salt of the earth' couple in Oregon worry me in only one respect - They are good 'simple' folk in the nicest possible way, but that very simplicity might leave them open to be hijacked by the Christianists. Simplicity is fine when not under stress, but it's no substitute for education when the chips are down and you have to think critically.
Mark, if you or your property were about to be destroyed, would you take measures to prevent that? And why?
I would have to say it depends, but probably. Are we talking Hurricane or Men with guns? Why - I have a built-in survival instinct.
You still haven't answered my question.
And I will turn that question of yours around.
If you were told that your property or you were about to be destroyed, would you take measures to prevent that, or would you educate yourself as to whether or not the person telling you your property or life was in danger was telling the truth in the first place?
The reason I ask the question is that the reason for "destroying those that destroy the earth." is a matter of God dealing with His personal property, His creation and those who have trashed it. Most men would have no trouble preventing such from happening or deal with those who have already trashed it. And since God gave the care of the earth to men, and they have not handled the responsibility very well, He deals with it. And that care also included dealing with other men and women on this earth.
If men using their own standards to deal with protection of their property is fine, it should be fine for God to do the same, shouldn't it?
Well, I like the way you interpret that particular piece of the bible. It is certainly what I read in the bible, but many seem to disagree.
Although "god" seems to be pretty indiscriminate in his dealings. And when the time comes for the planet to "deal" with those who have trashed it, it won't make the slightest bit of difference what your religious beliefs are; neither will it matter if you spent your life recycling and walking everywhere rather than using a private jet and dumping all your trash in the sea.
Does that mean you think that anyone who does not protect and care for the earth is not a genuine christian?
Disagreement doesn't alter the plain meaning of a text. And I assure you that God is not indiscriminate in His dealings, appearances notwithstanding.
I'm not really sure what you mean in your second paragraph. You may need to clarify.
No, it just means that they aren't acting like a genuine Christian.
Well, wars have been fought over the meanings of this particular text, so I will have to disagree with you there.
What I mean in my second paragraph is that sooner or later, the planet will defend itself from us. (If that is not already happening.) And however that takes form, a new ice age, rising sea levels, hurricanes, stronger storms, whatever, it will not make the slightest bit of difference what your religious beliefs are or whether you personally tried to take care of her. You might call that god dealing with those who destroy the earth
Now explain how some one can be a genuine christian without acting like one please.
Mark, the context in Revelation is one where Christ comes back to this earth and takes those actions at that time. This in no way precludes Him from dealing with mankind prior to that time, as you point out. In fact Scripture reveals that he specifically does deal with mankind but in ways most don't like to contemplate.
The presumption is that an action is what makes a Christain. As I stated previously, A Christian is one who has been reconciled to God by accepting the Sacrifice of Jesus. A person can do absolutely nothing to obtain or maintain that reconciliation.
In no way, though, does this give license for a Christian to act any way they want to. At the same time, reconciliation does not create a perfect saint while on this earth. The Bible does lay out very clear standard of conduct for His People to live by. The most that can be attained while on this earth is a certain level of consistency in personal actions, not absolute perfection. Otherwise we are all doomed.
Obviously, there can be a variety of actions in certain areas of life, simply because of the variety of interpretations of the Bible. But the Bible says that the interpretation of itself is not left to the individual whims of man. There is a consistency within Scripture that is there for all to view and understand. It also talks about the greater responsibility of those who stand in positions of leadership and lead others astray in their understanding and living of God's Word.
Scripture also talks of the personal responsibility every person has to continually examine himself or herself to see if he or she is acting according to the Scripture. Why, because every true Believer will stand before God to give account of the deeds done in the body while on this earth, whether they are good or bad.
Another aspect is the person who calls himself a Christian but actually isn't in his heart. Jesus refers to those who will stand before Him and plead their good works in His name. His response is, "I never knew you." These people obviously trusted in their good deeds to gain them entrance to heaven without having personally known God.
I hope this addresses you question also, at least to a certain degree. To the degree that I haven't, let me know.
And I wouldn't worry about the perception of a threat. I've never noticed anything of the kind on your posts. That goes for Mark and Paraglider also.
I have a question for ben and VP, serious question, no threats nothing of that sort.
My question is...
If Jesus was the only way to God, then tell me about the story of the Symaritian.
You know when Jesus tells the story about the man left for dead on the side of the road; a preist walks by but doesn't help him, another man walks by steals his stuff, then a symartian walks by...
Jesus' deciples say, a symartian, they hate us... Jesus continues and says, the symartian stops and takes the man to get help and says he will pay whatever he needs to to heal him.
Jesus goes further to say, that, that symaritian will go to Heaven. How can Jesus say he will go to heaven, when that symartian was not a Christian?
From my understanding Jesus is very broad and accepting of those with a good heart. Those whom express:
the ability to learn
slow to anger
not too proud
gentle and kind
at peace with those around them
will not raise a hand to anger, but "turn the other cheek"
offer assistance where needed
love themselves as well as thier "neighbors"
are well aware they are no different or better than anyone else,
do their best to repent as in they try very hard to not make the same mistakes again.
know they "sin" or as I like to say, "mess up".
and "try" to obey the 10 commandments.
and have "faith", a genuin belief that no matter how bad they mess up God will still love them.
Would rather be killed then kill
woe the day of Armegedon
believe in love
love their enemies
treat "foreigners" as guest
are not weary of man
do not pass the blame but accept the consequences for thier actions.
believe words are just words, but actions are what count.
care about the world they live in.
help the poor and feed the hungry
do not make money transactions in their place of prayer
What I see from most whom call themselves Christains is:
The need to be right,
a feeling they are always been frowned upon for their beliefs
help most only those who believe as they do,
decide far in advace they are right, and everyone else is wrong.
are quick to anger
cast and devide people out, into seperate groups even amongts others who also believe in Jesus.
believe they are better and have been set apart from the rest because of Jesus sacrifice.
use the knowledge they have about sin and repentance as a scapegoat for their actions.
would rather kill then be killed.
point the finger and pass the blame.
beleive that those who do not accept JC as thier savior or God is evil and the anti-christ.
believe that life is a race to Heaven.
condem left and right, though they say they don't.
judge people by thier words
I could go on, but I think that is enough.
In other words - 'good Christian folks' as recognised by my Beavertonians
I think the 'folksy' Christian is closer to Christ's teachings than the evangelical type.
VP here, and I will reply to your question for me.
How about giving the other cheek? I heard Christians are supposed to do just that...
I would call letting yourself be nailed to a cross pretty doormat-like
But you do not feel the need to behave as he did?
Do your kid a favor and send him to school.
Ummm? Hardly about forgiveness... Could be my ESL though But it sound pretty much the same in Russian, too
That is a very good question, and a place of immense misunderstanding about the Bible. My issue with Sandra is her prejudice against Christians.
I am to turn my cheek if I am attacked. That is actually part of the concept of discipline. It shows the meek that they can indeed inherit the earth. Because someone has discipline does not make him a coward per se.
The Hubpages forums are an attack against God, Jesus, the Bible and Christians. This is the time where I will either be with God or against Him, plain and simple. To turn my cheek to the insults against all of this would just be cowardice. God promises that cowards will burn in hell forever. I have to call it like I see it. When the conversation turns away from obvious disgusting prejudice, my conversation will turn, too, but not before.
If it is started, I will finish it. I hate prejudice, and there is no excuse for it.
Let me ask you, should black people in the 60s have turned the other cheek? Martin Luther King was a Christian pastor, you know. If they did, where would they be today? Believe me, Misha, I will fight with all my might against prejudice against all of these things.
You either turn it - or not. The rest is demagogy.
VP - seriously, I think you are being too defensive. Yesterday I observed that some Christians are too aggressive in their manner. (So are some atheists and some Muslims. I've not met many aggressive Hindus or Buddhists yet, but probably they exist.) Anyway, instead of considering the point, you immediately identified with them and called me for prejudice. That was uncalled for. I espouse no religion but am happy for others to believe what they like, provided they do not impose their view or legislate from their perspective. Because that is unjustifiable.
you know what, you are right, Jesus said in that story, which one do you think will make into heaven.
So you must think the samaritian wouldn't. hmmm.. how very christianist of you.
Or is it Christain of you. I don't really know, never met a genuine christain, heard a lot abou them though.
Where could I find one? I know I will ask Paridglider. ;P
This is for Mark:
You go to another thread and copy only part of what I said on the thread. Thankfully VP had the intelligence to go and see everything I said and not just part of it. Apparently there are some people on here blind enough to just take what you copied and not search for the the truth.( I wonder if they realize how that makes them look to the people who read their replies.) I hope by seeing what VP showed them that from now on they will be wiser to you. I saw where moneymaker or someone just believed what was typed and didn't research. moneymaker and others out there who didn't look this up, you are reading bits and pieces of what I said. If you want to know the truth, research it and do not just take what Mark copied and take that as everything I said. To do that makes it to where he is telling a half-truth which = lie. If you want to be a follower and follow blindly, that is your business. But, I did feel that most of you are adults and know better than to just take a person's word for something. Research people. Read eveything that is there. Mark likes to take that one thing he shows you and turn those of you who don't know me well against me. It is your choice if you blindly take his word as truth. It is your choice also if you want to know everything that was said. Thank you VP for wanting to know the whole truth. Looks like you are the only one who really is interested in the truth. And for you who made the comment that I follow a false prophet, I follow Jesus Christ, call Him what you wish. I am human, I do make mistakes, but I do my best to live the life Christ wants me to. For you who do not follow Him, you cannot tell me what I should look like or act like. I answer only to my Heavenly Father, not to any human. He is my judge, not you.
Actually I read your original post at the time it was posted, and got an impression you are ready to use nuclear weapons if this means less casualties to American army. Did I misunderstand you?
It would be much easier to understand what you are trying to communicate If you start using somewhat easier language. Not all people here are proficient in English, I for one have real difficulties trying to understand you.
I'll do my best. I don't mind more questions about what I've said, in order to clarify. I appreciate you making the point.
In that case, Misha, I apologise for my last one - it was probably incomprehensible. After 3 beers, the mathematician in me grabs the microphone!!
allshookup - I did not take oit out of context. I later added a link to the thread so that people could see everything that was written. You said what you said. It is there in black and white for all to see here:
I also added all the text you wrote. You later defended your statement that "that is what nukes are for," by claiming that you meant they should just be used a a threat.
How very christian of you. If you think Jesus is telling you that evolution is a lie, nukes should be used, and the polar bears are a worthless species that you do not care about, that is your choice.
Personally, I find these sentiments abhorrent (look it up) and you have completely mistaken what Jesus was saying.
Do your kid a favor and send him to school.
Ben - What you seem to be saying is that as long as one "accepts the sacrifice of Jesus," it doesn't really matter how they behave?
And it doesn't really matter what good work I do, when I die, I will be going to hell if I never did this.
And the bible is not a guide for how to live a christian life, it is about accepting Jesus' sacrifice, so I should not look to the bible as a guide to how to behave. What is really important is acknowledging that I am a sinner and worthless, but if I accept Jesus, I will live forever.
That about it?
This is the Truth you have come to Teach me?
You copied the part of what you wanted them to see and then only put a link to the rest. Why? Because that is really the only impression of me you want them to get is what you copied. I hope they can see the things like this that you do and how you try to turn people against other people. Now I hope people can see what you really are like because as soon as other people say something you don't like, you'll do it to them too.
Mark, is that what I said? Of course, not.
There is one issue that is related to this. And that is the matter of Judging another. You hear it stated all the time. "Judge not lest you be judged." This has to do with making a personal judgment about the state of ones soul, whether or not they are going to heaven or hell when they die. We are told not to do that because that is the responsibility of God to judge a person's heart. Not mine. Not yours. Or anyone else.
Jesus does, however, teach us to judge whether or not a person's actions are right or wrong according to His Word. In fact, we all make those type of judgments on a regular basis. Some judgments may be right. Some may be wrong, but we all make them.
On this thread, many judgments have been made about a variety of actions. You have made some yourself, some of which have been right. It matters not that they were made against the actions of a professing Christian. If your judgment is right, it's right! And that can't be changed. A Christian is not free to ignore the Truth, even if it comes from someone who does not claim to be a Christian.
I'm sorry that you have never met someone you can call "Christian." I'm also sorry that you have met others who have acted in very "Unchristian ways." A sad reality to be sure, but reality nonetheless. Don't let the imperfections, small or large, of someone else determine your view of that which is "Christian." There's more to it than that.
Of course there is more to it than that.
But, you need to be a little more clear what you say, because that is what I read, and judging from the behavior of many "christians" on this thread, they seem to believe the same thing. Saying "while on this earth," when you mean something else is bound to lead to confusion. Many think that they have done all they need to do by "accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior." End of story - done what they need to do to get into heaven.
I see it completely differently. But, I will take issue with one thing:
Now, I have not cut that out to take it out of context, but for clarity
But - this suggests that no matter the good works, if some one has not "personally known god," they will get some short shrift from Jesus, and presumably burn for all eternity.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It states it very clearly.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
Jesus didn't play around. His message was one of inclusion but according to His Truth, not anyone else's version of it. A person either know Him or they don't.
Ahah - I understand. I should not judge whether or not a person is a christian by their actions, I should judge a christian by whether or not they have accepted Jesus as their personal savior.
Sorry, I have heard this Truth before, and I will continue to judge people by their actions rather than their words. I am not in a position to look into their heart to see if they "Know God" or not.
Personally - never met a christian myself, but I live in hope.
If you tell me you are a christian, and in the same breath say war is right, I will judge you not to be a christian.
You know it makes sense
Mark, you can NEVER again say you do not resort to personal attacks. People on this thread can see you saying that about my son. I homeschool him because my husband and I are convicted by God to do so. That is a personal attack. You can say it's not and get some of your cronies to agree. But the fact is, it is a personal attack to me and my family. It's none of your business what how we educate our son.
And Jesus GAVE His life for us. He chose that so our sins could be covered. He was not a doormat. Since you feel you know everything in the world, you should remember when He went in and saw the people and what they were doing in His Father's house that he drove them out. I do not see that as being a doormat. I see that as cleaning house. He did the right thing. He is God, you know.
How is saying that you should send your child to school a personal attack?
Let me get this straight:
You are allowed to have an opinion as to whether or not a woman should be allowed to have an abortion. And you think the law should be changed to prevent that.
But - I am not allowed to have an opinion on whether you should send your son to school or not.
And lest we forget, you are the one who wrote a hub saying that god "convicted" you to home school your boy.
And you believe evolution is a lie.
Do your kid a favor and send him to school.
Or how about starting a movement to stop homeschooling?
The continuance of public argument and debate on points between individuals who all believe they are right (or project such a thing for the purposes of keeping a debate rolling) is an attack between those people who contribute in it. The rest of the forums can be left out of it, thanks.
I see no purpose in explaining my views to you because I feel no matter what I say, you would do your best to pick it apart and twist it. So I feel that in spending time explaining, it would be in vain.
I completely understand what Ben is saying. It's plain and simple to me.
Well, it wasn't even plain and simple to Martin Luther. Entire theologies have clashed over this interpretation. Because, you know, a heathen could live an excellent life, loving neighbours, seeking reconciliation with enemies, helping the poor, showing charity and justice. And still not know Jesus. What happens to such a one after death? (I think we all just die, but I'm addressing anyone who believes in an afterlife and a 'personal' soul). Isn't that a fair question?
I think this is the answer paraglider:
27 He answered, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself.”
28 Jesus told him, “You have answered correctly. ‘Do this, and you will live.’”
This allows for their ignorance of Jesus. Even as it allowed for it before Jesus came.
Well, what I said was that I understand what Ben is trying to explain to you. The Bible says that there is only one way to Heaven and that is by having Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. It doesn't matter how smart you are on earth, how rich your are, how poor you are, how many times you fed the poor, how much you gave to charity, how many enemies you are now friends with. Unless you confess your sins and accept Jesus into your heart, you will not go to Heaven you will go do Hell. I did not write that, it is not my opinion. It's the Word of God. It doesn't matter who believes it or doesn't believe it. His Word is the Truth..
John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
I put that there to show you that it is not me who said it but Jesus Himself. I hope this helps.
Where the other people going who is not going to follow Jesus.
This means everybody in this world has to follow Jesus. Otherwise they are going to hell.
I think thats what you are trying to say here.
Am i missunderstood?
Let me show you from the Bible what I'm saying please:
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
(We are all sinners)
Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(We all deserve to go to Hell. Every single person. But God gives us the gift of eternal life if we accept it. But, the only way to accpept it is through His Son Jesus.)
Romans 5:8 " But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
(Even thought we all deserve Hell, God loved us enough that He sent Jesus to die for us. You, me, every single person who walks on this earth)
Romans 10:9 & 10 "That is thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shlat believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
(When and only when we confess our sins to Him and ask forgiveness and accept Him as our Savior are we saved. It is a gift from God. It is not something we earn by doing good works, (there is no possible way we could do enough good works to get us to Heaven) it is by faith only.)
Ask, Believe, Confess....Easy as ABC. That's all it takes to go to Heaven. Believing on Him and having Him as your personal Lord and Savior.
But because it is Truth, clearly you believe it, yes?
OK. Now please, purely in the spirit of education, since I am to go to hell, please tell me what awaits me there?
I've read about the worm which dieth not and the fire which is not quenched. Is this really to be my lot for the next million years or so?
But you know, this worm - EXACTLY what is it going to do? Do I get a personal worm or do we share them around?
Hey, I wrote a hub about bed bugs a few months ago. They weren't much fun. But this worm - does Pif-Paf spray help at all?
Flippancy aside - this is a big issue. When people believe that 'others' are fit only for this sort of treatment, it becomes a small step for them to start meting it out here below. That, and not hell, is what does trouble me.
Paraglider, Christians tell about Heaven and Hell because they are worried about the souls of those who have not accepted Jesus yet. We are not trying to hound you or anything else. It is because Christians care that they share. If you knew that there was a huge cliff where there were tons and tons of buring debris and if you saw persons going toward that cliff, would you not care enough to stop them and explain what they are headed for? It's the same thing. It is not to talk down to you or anything of that sort. It is only trying to help. I wish you could see that. Why do you think we would spend so much time on here typing when we could be doing other things? Because we care about your soul. To answer your question on Hell, there is no time frame in eternity. It goes on forever and the fire there is many times hotter than any we have here on earth. We just don't want anyone to go there. The way to the gate of Heaven is narrow but the way to Hell is wide. God stands on the outside of your heart's door knocking, only you can open the door to Him.
Care about your souls so much as to be ready to nuke your bodies if you don't listen Talking about condescending...
Still, I notice you held back from explaining exactly what the worm is going to do. This suggests to me that you are a little ashamed of holding such a doctrine or, perhaps, you have 'a delicacy' as the Victorians used to say. Either way, it amounts to the same thing.
I keep going back to my "Beaverton couple of good Christian folks". There's no way they believed that most of humanity was destined for fire and worms. You see, it's un-Christian to be so blood-thirsty.
You know the old thing about to look too long upon a woman is to commit adultery in your heart? Well, I put it to you that even to contemplate eternal torment for your fellow creatures is to wish for it in your heart.
It seems that you have adopted the Beaverton couple as your authority for what a Christian is. Why?
"You either turn it - or not. The rest is demagogy." I should have known better than to waste my time. Coming from you, that is a great compliment.
Sandra. I think you are the closest. The Samaritan is the very best example one could choose. Many people forget the WHOLE story. The parable of the GOOD Samaritan is a story that Jesus gave IN ANSWER TO A QUSETION. What was the question?
The Good Samaritan Luke 10
25 Just then an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. He asked, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 Jesus answered him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?”
27 He answered, “You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind. And you must love your neighbor as yourself.”
28 Jesus told him, “You have answered correctly. ‘Do this, and you will live.’”
29 But the man wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
SO HERE the question is what must I DO - to inherit eternal life?
Jesus answers, love God with every fiber of your being - and love your neighbor as yourself. But the teacher wanted clarification on who his neighbor was. Jesus not only tells him who his neighbor is but also how you can love him as if he were yourself. Now comes the illustration.
30 After careful consideration, Jesus replied, “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho when he fell into the hands of bandits. They stripped him, beat him, and went away, leaving him half dead.
31By chance, a priest was traveling along that road. When he saw the man, he went by on the other side.
32 Similarly, a Levite came to that place. When he saw the man, he also went by on the other side.
33 But as he was traveling along, a Samaritan came across the man. When the Samaritan saw him, he was moved with compassion.
34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them. Then he put him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, ‘Take good care of him. If you spend more than that, I'll repay you when I come back.'
36 “Of these three men, who do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of the bandits?”
37He said, “The one who showed mercy to him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do what he did.”
But that is only most of the story. Jesus referred the man to the LAW. "What does it say" he asked the Lawyer. Later, Jesus says He Himself FULFILLS the law - and that since He fulfills it - they must then believe on Him whom the God of the law sent.
So a true Christian is one who loves God with all his being, and his neighbor and accepts Jesus Christ as the Son of God who fulfilled the law becoming our sacrifice for sin. When you accept Him - He comes and lives inside of you - it's personal. Not intellectual or philosophical.
It is not enough to merely believe in Jesus, or accept Jesus, or believe he was God or believe he was just a prophet or just a spirit or any other number of things. One must believe the three things he said above which he STATED are necessary to inherit eternal life.
"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
You can't see me right now, but I'm turing my other cheek.
Why must you and Mark and others go from one topic to another on the forum bringing up things from other forums trying to tie that to whatever thread your in at the given time just trying to stur up things?(It's been done more than on this thread) Kindergarten indeed. Ben has a great topic for this thread. I told him where I stand. It's his thread and I tried to answer his question. It seems all you want to do is make attacks and try to make it your thread.
It's not your thread, and not my thread. It is a public forum. Everybody is free to post here. If you don't like what others are saying, it is your problem - providing everybody is staying within the TOS.
You are absolutely free to hang on somewhere on a Christian site where nobody will question your beliefs. This site happens to attract *thinking* persons, and looks like thinking and Christianity do not get together well
PS Welcome back PT, did not see you here for a while
Ben directed this question at me on another forum thread:
And if you think each tread lives in isolation from the others.......
Jesus said I have come to give you life and life more abundantly. A person in the state you talk about paraglider - does not have that kind of life - but he can still know God and love his neighbor.
Knowing God is not a prerequisite to loving your neighbour. To me, it is far more natural to love your fellow species and other mortal species on this earth than to know or love some 'higher being' for which/whom there is no tangible evidence.
Maybe so, but Christians don't believe that. We actually love our neighbor more by knowing God.
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
11This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
No, you don't. You do not love your neighbor, therefore it makes no difference whether you know god or not.
Or rather - according to your beliefs - you are going to burn in hell for all eternity.
I "love" you.
Mark, sometimes I think you just like talking to yourself. How can you possibly know what you've said above. I think you misunderstand what Christian love is - or rather like to hold Christians to an impossible interpretation of it.
Love you too
PT - I accept that good Christians behave well because they believe God expects it of them Will you accept that others behave just as well with no such belief?
No - I will not. According to the Samaritan example - it is the one who loves his neighbor with his:
that is behaving well - and it is our personal actions which determine if we love God with all our hearts. According to virtually every poll on the subject - religious people who are ACTIVE in their faith - are similarly active in their actions - behave well. It is not a universal state based on a common species argument.
In all 3 of these categories - the Protestant nations - and the Protestants in those nations lead in all polling. If practice is an indication of the heart - I'd say you have the answer to your specific question, "can non-religious people be just as well behaved?".
Behavior is an outflow of one's heart, mind and beliefs.
6 of the top 7 most charitable countries are Protestant Tradition. (on a % basis)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo … _countries
Religous people outgive non-religous people 7:1
""""Research in the United States suggests that religious belief is the strongest predictor of giving. One study found that average charitable giving in 2000 was over three higher by religious individuals ($2,210) than by secular individuals ($642). Giving to non-religious charities by religious individuals was $88 higher. Religious individuals are also more likely to volunteer time, donate blood, and give back money when accidentally given too much change. A 2007 study by The Barna Group found that "active-faith" individuals gave on average $1,500 in 2006, while "no-faith" individuals gave on average $200. "Active-faith" adults gave twice as much to non-church-related charities as "no-faith" individuals. They were also more likely to register vote, volunteer, personally help some who is homeless, and to describe themselves as "active in the community."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mo … _countries
So as these and other studies consistently prove - talk is not walk - and rationalizations are not facts.
I am not saying others of various Christian sects are not loving or giving, or even atheists and seculars can not be loving or giving. I am saying they are not the same because they draw their desire from different wells. If one were to believe what you are implying - it would assume that everyone is the same - and according to the Bible and the view of Christians - it is not.
Neither am I saying that Protestantism is the end all - but rather that it understands these issues better than most as evidenced by it's willingness to conform to it's requirements. Protestantism understands James.
The 2nd chapter of James gives a very plain and clear opinion of this.
1 My brothers, if you have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ of glory, do not take a man's position into account. 2 For if a man comes into your Synagogue in fair clothing and with a gold ring, and a poor man comes in with dirty clothing, 3 And you do honour to the man in fair clothing and say, Come here and take this good place; and you say to the poor man, Take up your position there, or be seated at my feet; 4 Is there not a division in your minds? have you not become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Give ear, my dear brothers; are not those who are poor in the things of this world marked out by God to have faith as their wealth, and for their heritage the kingdom which he has said he will give to those who have love for him? 6 But you have put the poor man to shame. Are not the men of wealth rulers over you? do they not take you by force before their judges? 7 Do they not say evil of the holy name which was given to you?
8 But if you keep the greatest law of all, as it is given in the holy Writings, Have love for your neighbour as for yourself, you do well: 9 But if you take a man's position into account, you do evil, and are judged as evil-doers by the law. 10 For anyone who keeps all the law, but makes a slip in one point, is judged to have gone against it all. 11 For he who said, Do not be untrue in married life, is the same who said, Put no man to death. Now if you are not untrue in married life, but you put a man to death, the law is broken. 12 Let your words and your acts be those of men who are to be judged by the law which makes free. 13 For the man who has had no mercy will be judged without mercy, but mercy takes pride in overcoming judging.
14 What use is it, my brothers, for a man to say that he has faith, if he does nothing? will such a faith give him salvation? 15 If a brother or a sister is without clothing and in need of the day's food, 16 And one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warm and full of food; but you do not give them the things of which their bodies have need, what profit is there in this? 17 Even so faith without works is dead.
18 But a man may say, You have faith and I have works; let me see your faith without your works, and I will make my faith clear to you by my works. 19 You have the belief that God is one, and you do well: the evil spirits have the same belief, shaking with fear. 20 Do you not see, O foolish man, that faith without works is of no use? 21 Was not the righteousness of Abraham our father judged by his works, when he made an offering of Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was helping his works and was made complete by them; 23 And the holy Writings were put into effect which said, And Abraham had faith in God and it was put to his account as righteousness; and he was named the friend of God. 24 You see that a man's righteousness is judged by his works and not by his faith only. 25 And in the same way, was not the righteousness of Rahab, the loose woman, judged by her works, when she took into her house those who were sent and let them go out by another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead even so faith without works is dead.
SO PARAGLIDER - one may also have works without faith - and that is also dead.
Knowing God makes you understand the oneness of life,all is you.The reality is by harming someone else you are actually harming yourself.As an atheist I would kill animals quite indiscriminately with this really nice air gun,infact I would get a sadistic kick out of killing.
Now that I have seen God its something I just cannot do as I see God in all.God entering your life will make you more peace loving ,it happened with me.
This is what life is about from being in a dream stage to what is called self realisation or - th e awakening. As much as you tell someone about God it has to come to him from within- the self.
Hi Mohit - that's all fine, but in my own case, though I had a pretty nice air gun, I preferred shooting clothes pegs off the line. On a windy day, it took skill. I never had a desire to go killing things.
Maybe if the Lord of Washing had revealed himself to me I'd have given the clothes pegs a break. Who knows?
Nice to see you are peacefull,do you see God in all things?.Here I am saying that to say Christians or people who believe in God kill is non sense and that atheists do not, more garbage,
I am at peace, without seeing God in all things or indeed in anything, except books.
I don't like intolerance or aggression, whether exhibited by Christians or members of the Village Green Preservation Society.
But most Christians I've met just get on with their lives, offending nobody. So do most Village Green Preservationists.
Are you referring to "tangible evidence" for someone you cannot see? If so, can you give a brief explanation or example of what you mean. Thanks
Ben - I don't need to explain.
You believe there is a God. So you probably have all sorts of reasons that make sense to you, or perhaps you have chosen to believe through faith. That's no problem for me.
I don't believe there is a god. As I think you know, I don't find 'belief' a useful phenomenon.
The tenor of your statement seemed to suggest that tangible evidence is important to you. I was simply asking what consitutes tangible evidence when it comes to the existence of God. Doesn't scientific enquiry demand at least the postulation of such possibilities? If not, Why?
I can't speak for Paraglider, but there is the realm of what we know, and what we believe. What we know requires demonstrable evidence; what we believe demands nothing except what we want to think is true. Religion governs belief. Belief is inherently not disprovable (that does not mean it's provable); scientific theory is.
I would have just as much luck "disproving" God as you would disproving that the universe is governed by a giant spaghetti monster.
Because a book written a long time ago insists something is fact does not prove anything to those who don't share the same beliefs as you.
I appreciate the response.
I understand the impossibility of proving the non existence of God. But what His existence?
The reason I ask is the Biblical definition of Faith. It's not what most people think. Hebrews 11:1 says, "Faith is.....the evidence of things not seen."
When you say demonstrable evidence, what exactly are you saying? I'm not asking for a dissertation, but a brief explanation.
And where does evidence affect the traditional meaning or understanding of belief as opposed to scientific theory?
You are quoting the bible to define faith. What if I said I had a book written by the Son of the Giant Spaghetti Monster that said, "Faith is...a giant bowl of jello." Would that be any less valid?
I do not agree that faith is evidence of things not seen. Maybe that would be an acceptable definition 2000 years ago when people didn't understand that things that they couldn't see actually existed. (like oxygen molecules, bacteria, gamma rays, etc.) But we have to remember that just because the bible was written thousands of years ago does not mean it's automatically wise and correct.
Demonstrable evidence is something we can sense and/or measure, in a reproducible fashion.
I have no idea what your last question means.
I cannot speak for paraglider or livelonger either, but:
May I ask what is your definition of "evidence"? Or rather, the Biblical definition.
Personally, I would be happy with any demonstrable evidence.
And by demonstrable, I mean something tangible, visible, measurable, tasteable, testable, provable, or otherwise in this plane of existence.
Do you have some?
Mark or anyone, Christian or non-Christian, if you had proof that 70,000 people witnessed the sun dancing in the sky and falling towards those 70,000 people on the very day that the Blessed Virgin had previously said a miracle would happen would you believe in God?
I'll ask again.
Anyone? Mark? Misha? Sandra? Paraglider? Mohitmisra? Anitha? Gamergirl? (This goes along with you identifying with a feminine figure, because of the stereotypical nurturing and mothering that you seek. But not a goddess) Jyuva? Livelonger? Knolyourself? Jenny? Or any Christians?
Would you care to give a brief explanation?
I believe because I do, what more do I need? Someone to confirm what I already know? Silly question don't you think.
It might be silly. Maybe not.
I just wanted to see if you had anything else to say. There haven't been many short comments today.
I have a comment......................God bless you all and...................God loves you
A prime example of a good Christain, from speaking with him, I know that he is good. I know it because he choses not to argue about God, he choses to accept people for who they are and love them regardless. Or in other words, he decides to walk in Jesus' shoes instead of show them off.
Mike, sorry, I can't always react immediately. While I love to hang out here, I have home duties and such. I had to bath and put to bed my kids, so I was out for an hour or so
As for your question - I don't think I need an evidence that God (in general) exists. While Mark and Paraglider seem to decline the supernatural, I tend to think it is real - this way my picture of the World works better. However, my God has nothing to do with the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God, and I doubt really hard one can invent something to prove that the guy in white robe really sits on a cloud and eternally cooks sinners.
No. Let me explain why.
First, I'm guessing you're referring to Fatima. There are plenty of scientists that offer meteorological or cosmological explanations for the "dancing sun", all of which I'm more ready to believe than stories of people who are willing to attribute what they don't understand to "God".
Second, not understanding why something happens doesn't default to "it must be the act of God" in my book. It just means we don't understand something...yet. I don't understand the impatience of the religious who feel they need to attribute everything they don't understand to "God", instead of waiting and doing some investigating. I'll quote Carl Sagan here: "It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
I've been sleeping for 8 hours - is that OK?
I think it likely that there is no possible proof that the sun danced in the sky and started 'falling'. The sun is quite big, really, and quite far away, and not much interested in us !
Well I was hoping at least someone would request this proof.
Why don't you take 5 minutes to read this web site that shows that 70,000 people witnessed the sun dancing in the sky. Priests didn't believe it would happen. Even some freemasons seen it. The proof was published in a masonic paper among others.
http://www.fatimapeaceconferences.com/b … ts/pc3.asp
The sun is visible because rays traverse 93,000,000 miles of free space then about 10 miles of the Earth's atmosphere, then about 1 centimetre of each human's eye. I wasn't there either, but either it was dancing or it seemed to be dancing. If the explanation is physical, it has to be one of:
1. it actually danced - this is so unlikely as to be imho impossible
2. some local atmospheric perturbation took place, causing sun's apparent position to change. This is not impossible, for example there are recorded instances of the sun seeming to rise, immediately set, then rise again, for just this reason. Dancing? Don't know.
3. some chemical or drug affected the physical properties of the eyes of the people. (Unlikely, I know)
Apart from these physical causes, there remains mass hysteria.
What do you think happened? If you say the sun really danced, why was it only a visual effect? Why did the rest of the earth and the other planets experience no gravitational effects, as they surely would if the massive center of their orbits suddenly moved.
I don't know Paraglider. Actually it wasn't just a visual effect, it had been raining all the night before and up to the time the sun started dancing in the sky so they were all wet. After it was over the 70,000 people were all dry. There is a shrine to Mary about 45 to 50 miles east of where I live. A couple of years ago it was broadcast on our local TV station interviewing a teacher and two students that seen Mary there, and they were not hysterical or anything. Other people have seen Mary there too. Also some people have seen the sun dancing in the sky at this same shrine to Mary. I've been told the sun dancing in the sky was seen as far west from this shrine as Havelock which is about 20 to 25 miles from the shrine. I can't explain it other than it seems to me that Mary is trying to tell us something.
Hi Mike -
I read the link and can't explain what seems to have happened. But I am by nature predisposed to believe in natural rather than supernatural causes, even if I don't have the explanation to hand.
Now, please take this as a serious question too:
If you are right and Mary is trying to tell us something, why is she not doing a better job of it? Not being flippant, but if she can cause the sun to dance and dry a wet crowd in minutes, then she must be pretty powerful. Why can she not simply manifest herself unequivocally and say, "Thank you for coming to see me. I am Mary. I have come to warn you that humankind is in error" Or whatever. I won't presume to know what she'd say. Would not that have been at least as effective?
Well that's exactly what Mary tried to do through the 3 shepard children Paraglider, Lucy in particular. Lucy relayed Mary's message that the consecration of Russia was suppose to happen no later than 1960 but it still hasn't happened properly yet. That is why I included the link to petition the Pope to finally do the consecration properly in my Heavens Key to Peace thread, http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/7922
This is not just a Catholic issue. Anyone can petition the Pope to do the consecration properly.
Somehow I overlooked this post of yours. I apologize.
I'll be back to address your question
Since you have asked for eviden based on what the Bible says faith is (the evidence of things not seen), I'll continue to base my answer on what the Bible says.
Romans 10:17 says, ".....faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
So, the evidence of thins you cannot see comes by hearing the Word of God. The Word of God will say things that is evidence itself or will point you to the evidence. When the word of God says something, it is true.
Take the word of God, in its statements, facts, assertions, details, history etc. and prove them. God's very reputation is at stake. And if the statements in the Bible can be proved to be false, then the God that gave the word isn't worthy of being worshipped. God is not afraid of any honest seeker looking for evidence of Him. He is up to the task.
In fact, various personalities have done their best to disprove various aspects of the Bible. They have continually been proven wrong. For the honest seeker the truth is available.
Good morning everyone - I see the thread is still running!
Livelonger - that's very much what I would have said, if I'd not gone to bed instead.
Hola Misha. I'll be in and out for a couple of weeks.
I already read that a long while back. He also stated that that was probably not the place for it and made a place for that particular question. Which I feel was polite of him to not try and take over another person's thread and make someone else's tread all about him and what he believes. Ben is a nice person.
Whatever you believe, as a Christian the way is narrow and the passage to heaven is small.
A genuine Christian is not defined by "man's" terms, but by God's. So, as entertaining as it may be, the underlying point in this whole debate (all personal attacks aside) is that the true Judgment, by the Christian faith and the word of God (as supposed to be in the Bible) comes not from Man but from God.
I'll not only recognize your niceness, but honor it as well. Thanks for your civility. It is much appreciated!
You are correct. Christ does narrow the way.
And you are also right. God has revealed in His Word what His desire for every person on earth. While giving man the choice, He freely offers his gracious forgiveness to all. But a person must come to God because God has already provided all that is needed for Eternal Life to everyone. It's a gift waiting to be received.
Once again, Thanks
Yes definitely you are not being ignored gamegirl.
What Paraglider's Beavertonians said is a very nice way to get along with non-Christians.
But in my opinion gamegirl should have made it very clear to non-Christians when she said "A genuine Christian is not defined by "man's" terms, but by God's."
Thank you gamegirl.
That said we can not take Jesus Christ out of Christianity. In John 10:30 Jesus Himself said "I and the Father are one".
What I find very strange about what gamegirl said is that I have read some of gamegirl's previous posts and she has given me the impression that she is not even a Christian. Please correct me if I am wrong gamegirl.
To continue I'd like to say that some people that claim that they are atheists seem to know more about what a genuine Christian should be more than some actual Christians do.
For example this post,
But the Bible also says that faith without works is dead.
From the King James Bible - James, chapter 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."
To Christians the words justified and salvation mean the same as everlasting life in Heaven.
Although allshookup is showing good works by some of her posts, especially her first post in this thread.
But definitely not when she posted this,
To me that looks like you are condoning the use of nuclear weapons. If you do not want any more American blood to be shed then bring the troops home from the illegal war. Don't even think about using nuclear weapons.
See allshookup when some people that call them selves Christians war monger or say things that you said in the quote above you give a bad name to all Christians. No wonder atheists and others look as if they are attacking Christianity in these forums. When some people that call them selves Christians war monger or say things that you said in the quote above you are not just scaring the crap out of non-Christians, you are also scaring the crap out of most of the Christian world. In fact what you said in the quote above is not Christian at all.
Misha and the world are still waiting to find out what you meant when you said you were being misunderstood.
Now allshookup if you were being misunderstood then you owe it to us to explain yourself.
I am thy shield and thy exceedingly great reward.-The Holy Bible
Not everyone understands this.
Jesus is correct when he says I am the way-thats why he is called the great Jesus Christ, The Prophet-saviour of souls and why millions believe in him.On this hub some like to fool themsleves that Jesus was a nothing and that they are important-huge egoes.
If you understand the master in you only the will you be able to appreciate Jesus and the other Masters.Respect yourself then you can respect others.
Well, I think I know enough about christians not to want to join their particular cult.
Thank you allshookup, you have once again demonstrated that being a christian is not how I want to spend my life.
Do your kid a favor and send him to school.
I am just off to see what I can do about making it illegal to home school your children.
God "convicted" me to do it, so I am sure you will understand.
I wonder why I even post in this section of the forums - I hate being ignored when I'm being nice.
You sure do ask a lot of questions. But then that is the key to learning.If I say water boils at 212F. I demonstrate it with a thermometer,where everyone agrees is the method for arriving at temp. But to be scientific everyone has to be able to duplicate with similar equipment the same.
There is no scientific method to test the evidence of religous belief such as god. There is reasoning which attempt to demonstrate like the perfection of whatever,
but it is not sensory testable.
I have proof that the "word" exist however I have no proof that God said it. If "Jesus" is the "word" then it exist as a "word". Evidence that "the word" has come into existance is through those who believe in the "word", which have done those things and are sowing thier own existance.
Similarly, by the "word" "Jesus", has also come the "anti-christ", a "word", which by the same followers have managed to bring into existance the "anti-christ", through the actions of themselves by way of the "word" "Jesus" and in utter denial of those who do not believe in the "word" "Jesus", have deemed and sown the "anti-christ" through their own actions which have coincidentally made thier own war againts themselves, which has or will bring into existence the "word" "Armegedon" or "the holy war" however you chose to call it.
All of which and as it also applies to everything has come into existance by thier actions. Not Gods actions, but by our own.
Thus, it is by your actions. Actions speak louder than words. Our likness to God is the ability to bring things into existence by first our "thoughts", then by our "words", then by our "actions".
Believe whatever you chose to believe as the truth, be careful of what you bring into existence. You can chose a better love which is always kind, or you can chose one that is not love and bring into existence what is 'hate".
If you get it, you get it, if you don't oh well.
Mike; I am altering my opinion of you as I speak .
Give the nukes stuff a rest, OK? I am tired of it, and for you to keep harping against another Christian is not the right thing in my book. You did say you are a christian, right? If you want another explanation of the meaning of the comments, just read back. This subject is dead, isn't it? There was nothing wrong with it except it was brought here with half the story.
Allshookup was 100% correct in the post made on salvation, too. What is your problem with it? So you know, she never said that works are excluded per se. Your works only count AFTER (no shouting, Mark, emphasis) you give your life to jesus, right? No faith + tons of works = hell, right? You just expounded on the post, right? Salvation is actually far more complicated than that, but I do not need to expound on that with several pages of additional information here and complicate things even more. I will though if you like. Peace. Some FYI's...
Rom 3:28 For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.
Gal 2:16 Yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Rom 9:32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone...
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision carries any weight – the only thing that matters is faith working through love.
Heb 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Sure, you want the subject to be dead - or rather concealed - but it is not
We are still waiting for alternative explanation, and until then assume that our interpretation was correct. I had no doubt you as a genuine Christian would support Allshookup in this issue
I expect that from you, Misha, just not Mike. Of course, I was not talking to you, though.
Hey I assume you are volunteering to quit the stupid religious arguments to help others, right?
You mean Mike as a Christian does not have a right for his own personal opinion, if it is different from yours? How very Christian
What made you thinking I do?
Why do you think you should question my Christianity? My Christianity is none of your business, since you know nothing about it. If you knw ew what it was all about, you would not be here saying the stuff you say. Mike can think whatever he wants and so can you. I just encourage you guys to get the transmission off of being stuck in reverse.
Are you ready to start helping the needy now and quit this goofy arguing?
I am not questioning your Christianity, I just cannot stop pointing out cases where you boldly display it
As for the needy - I do help them, but not 24/7, so I have some time left to have fun on these forums.
LOL Thanks Sandy
I don't think it matters to those guys, though - they consider us both their enemies, so yours is perceived as a tactical move to support your ally position against them
Well maybe some will say that they love us anyways because loving your enemies is a good christain thing to do.
However heavily disillusioned I am, I still believe that one day, maybe way far in the future that life will be good for everyone.
Unfortunatly I know that it would take an incredible amount of "faith" if you will for people to stop what their doing, through down stubborness and look at the world we have all created.
In all, I will always feel like life is too precious to throw away because it is what we do have.
Not that I even need to explain that to you or Mark or Jenny or Paridglider or Money Mike for that matter or Mohit or Jewels and many others.
Well viralprospector she did not give an explanation. This is too serious to be overlooked.
I'd have to agree with Misha again.
Now that is what we are talking about, "I accept that good Christians behave well because they believe God expects it of them Will you accept that others behave just as well with no such belief?" The answer is an unequivocal "yes". Yes, shouting, Mark.
Whether Christian or not, we are compelled to good works. When will everyone just start cooperating to do good works instead oh hurling insults. I know it sure limits my good works to come here and defend that which no one should ever have the stupidity to insult. I am not using the stupidity toward you, Paraglider.
How about if we all agree to forget whether we are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or some combination and try to come up with ideas to make the world a better place?. I could sure use all the man hours you all put into arguing with me in my 501 (c) (3) for helping ex prisoners, victims of domestic violence, the unemployed and countless others. I can use you all to help me finish off those wind generated electrolyzers to hydrogen fuel cars.
Jesus came to earth as God in the form of a man. As a man, he performed miracles. Why? How? He was just a man or was He God? Well Miracles show us He was God. He could not resist the needy people's plight, and He put everything He had into it. Poof, a miracle happened. That is His lesson to us. Put all we have into helping the needy. Guess what, we are not doing that by being on here. So why am I here. Because when God, Jesus, the Bible and Christians are attacked, I fight back with a vengeance. I know you want to get rid of me. So, just quit doing that, and you will never see me again. Plus, you are all standing in the way of me helping tens of thousands of people a year every year for 14 years. Truce?
How about if we all agree right now to never argue about religion again and spend all this time helping the needy and poor?
"How about if we all agree right now to never argue about religion again and spend all this time helping the needy and poor?" How about you go help the needy and poor and I'll stay here and argue. Maybe I'm poor and needy myself.
Oh how generous of you. It is doubtful that you are among the elite who are poor. They are the happiest people in the world as a group. You hardly seem to fit that. Helping others is the #1 way to happiness... which contriburtes to your attitude problem. Also, the highest percentage of income given to help the poor is by the poor. You do not seem to hold that high position. Maybe some day...
Your arrogance is beyond belief. I thought I was the most arrogant person alive. But then there is a contender.
"Oh how generous of you. It is doubtful that you are among the elite who are poor. They are the happiest people in the world as a group." Wow I guess that explains the drugs, the alcohol, the crime the misey of
poverty with no health benifits, living day to day. Don't seem to me you ever been poor.
Please spare me. You and I do not belong in the same sentence, arrogance aside. Sorry you can't live with the facts of life. I sure can't change them for you. If you think rich people don't have crime, alcohol and other problems, dream on. That is irrelevent. If you think your conditions determine your happiness, yes, you do not need to be comparing yourself to me.
Happiness comes from learning to control your mind. Eliminate the left brain dominance and help others. You, too can learn how not to degrade others that did nothing to you whatsoever.
"You and I do not belong in the same (so christian of u) sentence, arrogance aside."
You know this will count againts me on hubpages and I am sure this thread will likely be closed because of this, but VP,
You are one very disturbed and foul human. I don't believe you are a human. I believe you are hurt, I believe you are sick, I believe you don't give a darn about anyone other than yourself or those who are in the exact likeness you yourself.
You are everything a Christain should not be. You are the most hateful person I have ever heard speak, I may even believe you are Satan himself.
You disgust me. Every single Christain I have ever met has had their problems or complaints and even bitter disputes but the stuff that comes out of your mouth is just hateful. Pure hate.
People like you are the reason I do not accept Jesus as my savior, and according to what I read, those who chose to preach or teach and cause those who are willing to fall from this path are the ones who will surley burn in Hell. That is according to your book the one you read.
vp: Yet another thread you've resorted to nastiness in. Please stop.
Make Money: You are absolutely right I am not Christian. I am not, well, anything specific really. I identify with diety as a feminine figure, because of the stereotypical nurturing, mothering Goddess I seek to be, seek to align myself with - regardless of any random forum trolling I may do at times. That said, I've spent the last.. err.. almost 20 years reading, learning, listening, keeping my eyes open to the religions of the world as I encounter them.
I'd like to, for a moment, ignore everything that is currently being argued about in petty fashions and go back to the question at hand -
For those of you who identify as Christian - beyond giving your devotion to Jesus Christ, and through him, G-d, what behaviors classically show a genuine adherence to the tenets of the Christian faith? What behaviors do NOT show adherence to these tenets?
Thanks gamegirl. To me as a Catholic I believe that it is vital for me to receive the Holy Eucharist at the Mass if not once a week then as much as possible.
I respond, not instigate. Stuff your nastiness comment! You are the nasty one to say that. You started it, and I replied, as always. You cut that crap out and I will too, OK?
I am very confused. All several of you have done is trash what I believe. Now all of a sudden what I believe is so very important to you? How did that happen? When did you start to care about me and my beliefs? I have apparently missed some posts on here where you had a change of heart. So, what you are now saying is that you people who trash me, all of you now care about me and my beliefs? Now you all care about me?
vp: If you actually read through the posts I've made in this thread, they've been civil and nice, no insults present (even thinly veiled) so please, I ask again, stop spreading negativity.
Make Money: In answer to your question about the miracle - Honestly, I can't really say that being a witness to such a miracle would change my faith - I, as always and forever, attribute my faith to something personal, and would most likely interpret such an event in my own way. I believe in a higher power, whom I define as feminine because my primitive mind requires some sort of substantial definition to that which I give my spiritual praise. So, to answer your question in short - if you already believe, and I mean truly believe in something, the miracle you mention would not sway my belief. That is, however, merely my outlook on the presented scenario.
allshookup: Sorry to hear you're so confused. There may be a bit of trolling going on in your direction. Try and have a good day, and pray for peace - inside and outside yourself.
A Christian is like a lump of clay ready to go onto the potter;s wheel. The potter shapes and molds the clay at just the right speed until the finished product is perfect. As he goes along the potter will remove any pebbles or impurities that he finds in the clay.
He is constantly working the clay as he goes, adding water when it is too dry, letting it dry if it gets too wet. Carefully putting his hands with just the right pressure in just the right places.
Yes, this is what real Christian is. It takes time and effort on the part of the potter, to turn the clay into a masterpiece.
Beautiful metaphor SirDent.
I bet it refers not only to Christians, though, all of our souls probably are like that
"on the very day that the Blessed Virgin had previously said a miracle would happen would you believe in God?"
Co - insidence. Mark Twain wrote a book called 'A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court', where the Yankee from New England goes back in time and he is
able to predict an eclipse of the sun, because he knows the date, and so they treat him like a god. Actually I have
experience over many years of what I consider proof absolute of something, although I don't call it god. Not sure what to call it, but of one thing I am sure and that is
you can't prove it, nor would I want to.
How I hate religion.
Just another excuse for people to bully each other...
And that's not what a Christian is all about.
With due apologies to the Bard:
Some are born religious, some achieve it, some have religion thrust upon them and some thrust it down others’ throats!
Why can’t we Christians be more Christ-like?
Wow, this one got out of hand pretty quickly.
So, rather than try and respond to everything, I would just like to say something as this thread was originally directed at me.
vd - you have proven yourself incapable of rational discussion and I have no wish to get into another slanging match with you. I am "turning the other cheek."
pt - Yes, I understand that the christian definition of love bears no relation to my own definition of the word. You guys seem to prefer the "tough love." approach. Worrying about our souls in case we go to hell and trying to persuade us that yours is the right way. That is how you show love. Even to the extent of using force if necessary. "For your own good," kind of love.
You don't seem to realize that this sort of love is seen as an attack if you do not believe. I also understand that you do not care, as it is for our own good.
asu - I am surprised you still have not explained your statement. Even when other christians have shown you why this is an offensive thing to say. Any time.
ben - Sorry, we seem to have lost the thread of our conversation - suffice to say, "evidence" that is not actual evidence is not going to cut it as proof.
What is a genuine christian?
Reading all through this thread, there seems to be two definitions.
1. According to the self-professed christians, a genuine christian is one who has accepted Jesus christ as their personal savior and this is the most important aspect of being a genuine christian.
2. According to the non-christians, a genuine christian is one who demonstrates by their behavior the traits that we believe Jesus Christ showed. Compassion, love tolerance etc.
These two appear to be incompatible.
Ben - I have yet to meet a genuine christian.
And I cannot use your definition of the word. Mostly because it seems to me that the christian definition of the word is all about getting yourself into heaven rather than doing any good, or making the world we live in a better place.I am not interested in being that selfish. Therefore I must use my own "authority," in determining what constitutes a genuine christian.
I understand, or at least, I think I understand why you think the way you do.
Don;t you think, though, that personal authority is rather limited? Does it really carry any weight?
In the BIble is recorded a few of the supposed thoughts of God as given to a few men. Part of that requirements for speaking for God are this.
If a man speaks in the name of God and makes a phrophecy, it better come true. If it doesn't, that man is not speaking for God and you are not required to follow Him in any way. It's a rather stringent standard, wouldn't you say? Regardless of what you think of man and His authority, they usually don't go around operating with that kind of standard.
That's why I point you to the Book. I'm not responsible for it, since it claims to be from God. Obviously, if you choose to not examine it or if you chooose to judge it based on some of its followers unexplainable actions, so be it. I don't think you can say, though, that you have tested ithe Book and found it lacking. Maybe some of the people who quote it are lacking, but not the Book and the One who it speaks on behalf of. Let your enquiry be genuine, then your rejection can be genuine.
As I said, it's not my standard. And it's higher than both yours and mine. And, it's reasonable.
"supposed" is the operative word there.
I have not yet seen a prophecy that a man who speaks in the name of god has made come true. There is no stringency to this standard because it is not testable.
Zero standards. Zero testability. Zero evidence. No standards.
There is a man on these forums who is claiming to be prophesying. Backwards. None of which proves anything because it is all based on a faulty assumption.
The people who wrote it claim it is from god. Huge difference. I have examined it, and judged it to be wanting. Using my own authority.
I can explain the actions of most of the followers - including yourself. Self-serving is the word that comes to mind.
You stated earlier that you were also here to learn and discuss. This is not the case.
You are here to convince me you know the Truth and it is Right, and are not interested in hearing my Truth. Simply using the argument that you are a genuine christian and all the other millions who have gone before you and used the same words to achieve their own ends were not, is not an argument I can swallow.
Actions speak louder than words, and I will continue to judge people by their behavior rather than what they say is going on inside.
And I don't like your definition - too selfish, too parochial, too much about you rather than anyone else.
vd- please do not call me a liar. That is a personal attack and will get this thread shut also. It is not very christian of you either
Your remarks could be considered disingenuous.
I've never denied that I have any Truth to present on this thread. I have never argued about the genuineness of my being a "Christian." That is not the point of the thread.
The fact is that you have made statements that are true, about not only Christians, but the Bible, also. And I've agreed with them when they were true according to the Bible.
You're right. Actions do speak louder than words. But the Bible takes it further than that. God wants both the words and actions to be the same. Once again, a lofty standard. It didn't originate with myself, yet you would agree with it. You have consistently made the point that Christians don't act like Christians. A valid point.
The example for us all in Christian behavior. How about Christ? How much more self serving and selfish can I get? Go to the One Who said it all and did it? Or have you found Him lacking too because he doesn't meet "your" standard for being a "Christian."
At some point there's a conflicting standard for what a Christian is. It can't be yours and Christ's, unless they are exactly the same. And if you want to disagree with Christ, that's your perogative. That also would be self serving and selfish.
The only way for us to not be selfish and selfserving is to go beyond ourselves. Otherwise we are all being disingenuous. A true interest in anything Christian must appeal to Christ.
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