Scientist describing how science (reprehensibly) suppressed Religion

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W Vidalposted 12 years ago

How did science get so focused on the material, and why is materialism on shaky ground? Here is Bruce H. Lipton (Curriculum Vitae - http://www.brucelipton.com/curriculum-vitae/) , talking on the felonious suppression of religion, by science.

"Science originated to challenge the faith-based dogma of the church, by describing and measuring phenomena in the physical world, and then making conclusions based on those observations. In a “détente” between two ideological superpowers, science was given domain over the physical and visible world, religion got custody of the metaphysical and invisible.

When Newton was able to predict the movement of clockwork universe without God or spirit, it was assumed that eventually science would be able to explain the entirety of existence merely by observing the physical world in finer and finer detail.

However, a funny thing happened on the way to absolute faith in matter. Quantum physics ultimately revealed that the material world itself is a matrix of entangled energy that science calls “the field,” that is oddly similar to the “invisible moving force” that religion refers to as spirit.
By ignoring nonmaterial reality, science has omitted at least half of reality – and the portion that Einstein believed was the most important."

http://www.brucelipton.com/spontaneous- … l-answers/
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When morons are replacing scientists, what more one should expect?
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exemplify your argument by naming a living scientist, that you consider 'sane' or 'intelligent'.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It would be difficult to get even a dead scientist!
  Science started as a rational explanation of nature instead of the magical, illogical and even idiotic and contradictory explanation religion offered.
  Physics stopped being physics when a mathematician who had no hypothesis, who merely offered a mathematical description for gravity, was hailed as one of the greatest scientist.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "was hailed as one of the greatest scientist." -It should be, "one of the greatest scientists."
  
  Anyway, I found no example in your post.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Try typing from a touch screen mobile!!
  
  This has nothing to do with the OP nor the point I made.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I requested an example of a scientist that you consider 'sane' or 'intelligent'. You couldn't provide one. If you consider Lipton to be a 'moron', then one can expect you to make it clear as what you consider to be the opposite of that.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is not 'who!, it is "what is considered rational". One who says nonsense as a scientist is a moron.
  
  Why not Darwin?
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What makes you think that what Lipton says is irrational, and what Darwin says is rational? On what basis did you make that differentiation?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You can start with an "introduction to logic" by Copi.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, are you saying that you had to consult "introduction to logic" by Copi, to conclude that Lipton is irrational while Darwin is rational? Was that the process?
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  good one
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As the person who couldn't differentiate between an irrational from rational argument, it's you who should consult the book.
  Validity is relative?? Do not showcase ignorance!
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Quote arguments from Lipton's message, that you consider to be irrational.
  
  "Validity is relative?" -Put that into the exact context where it originated. You might even start to understand its meaning.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Instead, point out the rational arguments, if any, from the excerpt you provided. I certainly will never try to teach somebody who is smug In his superiority, who do not want to study.
  Validity in logic is not relative, either the argument is valid or it is not.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have already made it relative, with your sentiments.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You have a long way to go.
  Awareness, sentiments, conditions or knowledge has nothing to do with the validity or soundness of an argument.
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  Toschposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Seems like it's relative in the end. None of you could adequately prove whether it's rational or irrational. Funny.
  
  *"Science originated to challenge the faith-based dogma of the church" ? Sorry, that is simply incorrect.*
  
  Incorrect is entirely different from irrational. The Zombie is dancing in air.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Proof has nothing to do with rational!
  Who's opinion should we consider to deem a sentence correct or not?
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  Toschposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If it's not proof which decides which is rational or otherwise, then it becomes relative. It becomes like 'beauty' or 'morality' or 'goodness' and stuff. These are all relative issues.
  
  Being incorrect is entirely different from being irrational. Now, who decides what is correct and what is incorrect? There are many ways to figure that out.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Proof is just like beauty or morality- an opinion.
  It is Not proofs that determine rationality.
  "Being incorrect..."
  I agree, but correct, true are all opinions.
  Then again, the sentence you quoted was his opinion, the contention is about the premises and his theory.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Because, Lipton is merely rehashing old news and everyone knows that, except you.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That can be classified as a rational, and relevant answer.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, you've never read any refutations of Liptons quackery?
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How did you interpret that answer into this question?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is one of most ridiculous and misinformed conclusions I've ever read from a doctor.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you actually suggesting the science should not study anything they cannot see. Like gravity for example. Should science leave gravity for the religious to figure out? Science has no interest in religion. Religion is not part of the equation. I wish Religion had no interest in science, but there they go teaching ID in science class.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dogma in science can suppress much just as dogma in religion can.
  
  He is one extraordinary genetic scientist!
  
  I like his discovery about cells and the genes. Where scientists once thought the nucleus was the brain of the cell, experiments have shown that it is not true. I was watching him the other day and a lot of what he says makes huge sense to my non scientific mind.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dumbed down and mysticised so it makes sense to some one who doesn't understand science.
  
  That about sums it up.
  
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So it makes no sense to you then? Only scientist that agree with the dogma that you subscribe to do?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No - it makes no sense.
  
  What you said makes a lot of sense. You like it because you don't understand science. This is what this charlatan is banking on.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you are right in that I like it for that reason. We might never know what it is he is banking on? Only time will tell whether or not his experiments and theories are proven or disproved. Scientist in the same field have the ability to speak up and prove otherwise.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That has already been done. Sorry.
  
  Reprehensible suppression of religion?
  Felonious suppression of religion?
  
  What experiments are these that show the invisible "spirit" realm?
  
  Clue - invisible.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps you are on a different tangent?
  
  Because...What experiments to show the invisible spirit realms are you talking about?
  
  If you read my post, it was referring to the stem cell experiments that he did proving the nucleus was not the brain of the cell. For years this was thought to be true by fellow scientist. He proved that the cell is influenced and changed by its environment and not the blueprint of the genes.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What? He proved no such thing - sorry. He expressed a religious opinion - no proving involved. He is a religious Quack.
  
  Probably that is why what he says makes sense to you? Because it fits your Majikal Dogma?
  
  http://spiritualityisnoexcuse.wordpress … ffoon-phd/
  http://bayblab.blogspot.fr/2007/12/quac … nline.html
  http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/ … h-help-fr/
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha ok. I am assuming you referring to the link provided by the OP. I was referring to something completely different.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But, to scientists, Lipton is a quack of the first order. He supports crank theories that have been shown to kill people.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean like Einstein was rejected by other scientists too? For several years his theory on relativity was controversial. His quanta theory was rejected for 14 years before it was finally accepted.
  
  What crank theories might that be that have killed people? Theories do not kill last time I heard.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Einsteins theories were not refuted, Liptons were. A little more info for you non-scientific mind.
  
  Liptons support for holistic therapies, of course.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Google Einstein and you might find his theories were not accepted initially. At least not the one's I mentioned.
  
  I didn't know he supports holistic therapies? I see nothing wrong with holistic healing. What is wrong with that in your mind? How many have been killed by holistic therapies as opposed to misdiagnosis by conventional medicine? Google that too if you like? You might be surprised to find the study that says 40000 ICU deaths were due to misdiagnosis.
  
  Medical Schools are apparently offering holistic courses to their students, so conventional medicine obviously do not dismiss it's usefulness. Nurses here do aromatherapy courses in the initial stages. Go figure.
  
  I have always thought they should work together and now it seems they very well could be.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that the opinion of a non-scientific mind?
  
  So, according to your logic, one form of dying is okay, you see nothing wrong with it. Again, is that the opinion of a non-scientific mind?
  
  Certainly not the ones that are well know bunkum, which is what Lipton supports.
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  Aroxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It seems technology is your religion. And science too. Be well dear.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yet, a new sock puppet emerges. Obsessions aren't healthy dude. LOL
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  Aroxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Why not take a pill to cure yours?
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psycheskinnerposted 12 years ago
That's hilarious as satire. Because that's the only way I can read it.
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wildernessposted 12 years ago
"Science originated to challenge the faith-based dogma of the church" ? Sorry, that is simply incorrect.

Science originated as an effort to understand the world around us. To find the truth in questions about nature rather than make wild guesses and claims based solely on what a "researcher" wanted to be truth.

Although it obviously did (and does) challenge many of the tenets of religion, that is not the purpose of science. Just understanding and knowledge.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @wild exactly.....science never originate to challenge faith based dogma...science and faith based dogma originated parallely....when people in jungle believed some supernatural ate up sun , some group also developed stone tools for practical utility....science is approach to understand things rationally , faith is approach to label things which we dont understand rationally....
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jomineposted 12 years ago
Hypotheses non fingo.

I have not as yet been able to discover the reason for these properties of gravity from phenomena, and I do not feign hypotheses.
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W Vidalposted 12 years ago
Well, scientists do make mistakes. You must check the validity of their arguments. The problem is to find the ultimate arbiter who can decide the validity.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Have you ever heard of the 'peer review' process?
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Seemingly, no one ever heard that, except you. The point of my argument was quite different there.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The ultimate arbiter is called 'reason' and 'logic', try it.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They depend on certain conditions. One one them is awareness. Another one, which is very interesting, is access to the latest available knowledge. There is no ultimate reason or ultimate logic.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ultimate logic?
  Logic is a system of inference which
  works by way of explicit ASSUMPTION and implicit
  DERIVATION!
  It has nothing to do with absolutes, but only validity.
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  W Vidalposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That validity is relative. That's the point.
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  getitriteposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...and the latest available knowledge is that God, through His son Jesus Christ, is Creator of the universe, and He works in ways so mysterious that man cannot know .
  amen
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  isaacoolbeansposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ...No.
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pennyofheavenposted 12 years ago
No idea if it was an opinion of a non scientific mind, you will have to ask Wikipedia if it came from a non scientific mind or not?

I said I see nothing wrong with holistic therapies. There is a huge difference between seeing nothing wrong with a method of healing and what you are implying. Where did I say there is nothing wrong with one form of dying? I also see nothing wrong with conventional medicine.

People have died in both methods. More according to the statistics n the conventional healing methods. So what might you be getting at that I am not understanding? Do you mean people die needlessly when they choose the holistic therapies? And do you mean that if they use conventional methods they are less likely to die? If that's what you mean the statistics prove that more people die through conventional methods.

At the end of the day though we are all going to die. Sometimes holistic or conventional methods cannot, or rather do not have the skill to intervene in the dying process. That is just the way it is.

What are the well known bunkum you are referring to?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously, there are more people who do use conventional medical services than holistic. The point is that conventional medical services work and holistic don't. Those who tried holistic died because they actually needed conventional, not the other way round.
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  Aroxposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What's the point?
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In some cases that is true, in some cases it is not.
  
  A friend of mines Mum was diagnosed with terminal cancer. The cancer specialist said she was riddled with it and there was nothing that they could do except try to ease the pain via doses of morphine. According to the specialist she only had three months to live.
  
  His Mum requested that they take her to a healer. My friend and his sisters were against it but their Mum was adamant. They eventually honoured her request even though they felt it was pointless. She died on the healers table.
  
  Here is the most amazing thing. When they did the autopsy there was no cancer to be found in any part of the body. They could not find a cause for her death.
  
  So..Either the specialist in conventional medicine was wrong in his diagnosis and the healer played no special role
  or...The specialist in conventional medicine was right and the healer played a special role in healing the cancer.
  
  The mystery is..She died even though there was no cancer. No one knows why. This reinforces what I said when intervention by conventional or alternative methods may do little in the dying process.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Strange they would do an autopsy on someone who was diagnosed with a terminal cancer?
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know? It might be standard practice here? My Mum had an autopsy done and she had cancer too. My sister's baby had an autopsy done. How do they find the cause of death without an autopsy?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If she was in the late stage of cancer they know the cause of death.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm both his Mum and my Mum were in late stages of cancer? (At different times) My Mum died of heart failure not cancer, she still had the cancer though? Maybe that is why they do autopsies, because it seems they do not always die of the disease they are supposed to die of. I don't know?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My mom didn't have an autopsy.
  
  "In fact, most people do not get an autopsy when they die. In cases of suspicious deaths, the medical examiner or coroner can order an autopsy to be performed, even without the consent of the next of kin. In all other cases (not of a medicolegal nature) the next-of-kin must give consent before an autopsy can be performed."
  
  taken from http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ … ekey=77553
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe autopsy isn't the correct term to use?
  
  I just googled the coroners role in New Zealand and apparently they are the ones that determine whether or not an autopsy is done. Their role is to determine cause of death and can direct whether or not an autopsy needs to be done. So I have no idea how they do this and how they find the causes of death when they don't do an autopsy? Maybe they have other ways of determining causes of death?
  
  In the case of my friends Mum and my Mum, the coroner must have deemed it necessary to do an autopsy or it wasn't an autopsy at all and was only determined the inquisitional process (apparently that is what the coroner does? What that means, I don't know?) and came to the conclusions that they did.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See how that works? Big miracle, until someone questions.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We should always question in my view. So what was your point about 'big miracle', I think I am missing something?
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  She suddenly had no cancer in her body? Why do an autopsy on a person how has a few months to live? Yes I'm questioning the story.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I get it now. I do not consider successful natural healing as a miracle so I didn't get what you were saying.
  
  No idea why an autopsy might have been done? Assuming one was done?
  
  All I know is this. When anyone dies they go to the mortuary for hours, what they do there is not clear to me even when googling. However, on my Mums death certificate it listed all the diseases she had, even some we were not aware of. Then it listed the cause of death as heart failure. On my friends Mums death certificate it did not list any diseases including cancer and the cause of death was undetermined and presumed by natural causes.
  
  So either someone got it wrong or didn't do their job properly or the healer healed.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess there was no autopsy, so we can't assume she was cancer free when she died.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where do you find assumptions were made? We can assume there was no autopsy done but that is pointless. The certificates tell it like it is. Or do you think they just make up reasons based on guesses. If that were the case one would assume the cause of death in my friends Mums case should have been cancer and not presumed natural causes.
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  Rad Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No no no no. You said she was free of cancer when she died, as if it was a miracle or something. She may have died of something else, but she was not free of cancer. The death certificate only states what she died of and not wether she still had cancer.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh sorry, gees bit slow today. I get you now and what you say makes sense. It could just mean that the coroner did not do his/her job properly and did not list the diseases present as was done with my Mum.
  
  So she may have died because she just died and the healer played no role at all.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, such an amazing coincidence, isn't it?
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where is the coincidence in 'may'? What coincidence might you be talking about then? If you read all the posts, it is all speculation as to how it was. Nobody knows? Can you just not accept that?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or, more accurately, she had a maximum of approximately three months to live based on the diagnosis, which is based on evidence of past cancer patients.
  
  Then obviously, the healer killed the woman right then and there.
  
  If the cancer was cured by the healer, the woman should have rose from the table and walked out the door.
  
  Your ridiculous story is just that, ridiculous. Autopsies don't reveal cancer, they reveal cause of death.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am just telling you how it was. If it is ridiculous to you I can do little about what you think about it.
  
  People die for all sorts of reasons. It is obvious she did not die of cancer. Why she did not get up and walk away is anyone's guess.
  
  If you are buying into the fact that healers can kill, you are buying into the fact that healers have some sort of special magic ability.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I suspect you're probably making it all up, like you've done so much in the past and have been caught red handed in the process.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Haha! Perhaps in your dreams that is true. You are entitled to dream.
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