There are a couple of Christians piously insisting that a few of the Hubbers on this site are swine. I think I am considered among that group. So, I have a few questions.
If I have what I consider to be a 'pearl of wisdom' and you have what you consider to be a 'pearl of wisdom' and we can each trace our understanding of this 'pearl' to thoughts brought about from passages in the Bible, who is the swine? Are we both swine to each other, or can only one of us be swine?
What if an atheist makes a very insightful observation? Which you agree with. Are you momentarily porcine, or is the atheist momentarily reprieved from the family of even toed ungulates?
Last question (I promise). Does it make you feel good about yourself to openly admit that you think others are swine?
Just curious, "Does it make you feel good about yourself to openly admit that you think" people who believe there is a hell are equivalent to Nazi death camp guards?
I don't feel comfortable knowing over one billion people would actively participate in the extermination of the rest of us, no. Would you feel good if I was joyously waiting for your extermination?
Believers want folks to avoid hell, and if they're active, it is in trying to keep others from going. Why must you twist that, saying that believing there is a hell to avoid is the same as actively working to send folks there? It is quite the opposite of the picture you try to paint. If real, folks can't wish hell away. All they can do is warn.
No. What does this have to do with believers who work to try and persuade folks to avoid hell? Your sentence is completely unrelated to believers who do not want anyone to go to hell, but can't force people to listen.
I wouldn't cherish the thought of you "joyously waiting for my extermination", but as long as you don't act upon that to harm me, think and wish for whatever makes you happy.
I find your sensitivity to the term "swine" in a general analogy that merely encourages prudence by not wasting valuable time trying to persuade folks who we are told won't listen, a bit hypocritical considering you are willing on an individual basis to personally compare someone to a Nazi death camp guard simply for believing hell exists.
You don't actively participate in the system that, if real, would mean the extermination of billions? By believing in it, you are acquiescing and, therefore, participating. To say you can't change it is not an excuse. Would it be an excuse, if you sat and watched the genocide of humans here? Would it be acceptable to attempt to convince me that genocide made sense?
I'm not sure what you are missing here. For people to state that others will be exterminated if they don't agree with you and then to call them swine for finding your philosophy heinous.....and then to plead ignorance because you refuse to accept that this behavior would be crimes against humanity if carried out in real life is honestly bizarre. Especially since it is done in the name of a guy who would call you a viper if he was here to witness religion, once again, attempting to spiritually enslave people.
Ironic, because I am not sure what you are missing here. If I am aware that around an upcoming bend a bridge is out, and I stand at the fork in the road warning those who will listen, how is that me wanting folks to drive off the bridge? Is it because I have an allegiance to the owner of road, who went to great lengths to provide a safe path? Truth is, He put up signs, and even built in a nav system, but folks who choose to ignore it all are free to do what they will.
If the bridge is not out, good for you. In that scenario, you were right and the nut at the fork in the road was harmless. But either way, to say he wants you to go off the bridge, or is somehow at fault if you do, is strange reasoning indeed.
Getting back to the OP though, you remain offended at the swine analogy but justify your calling anyone who believes in hell and would warn you of it, a Nazi death camp guard, and see no hypocrisy in that, correct?
Before we get back to the OP I feel compelled to ask why the owner doesn't fix the road, or close the road. It seems pointless to make you stand there and scream at oncoming vehicles. Doesn't the owner have an obligation to negate the danger?
To the rest of your question. No. I don't really think it is hypocritical. Because you have to admit you know about the system, you participate in the system, you do nothing to attempt to change the system. You won't take responsibility. Nothing you can do about it, according to you. But, I'm swine for standing up and saying the system you participate in has a death camp that you support?
The scripture being quoted is:
Amplified Bible (AMP)
6 Do not give that which is holy (the sacred thing) to the dogs, and do not throw your pearls before hogs, lest they trample upon them with their feet and turn and tear you in pieces.
It's an apt description of what has happened whenever believers use scripture to answer non believers, when (at least previously) a plethora of dissidents heap abuse and ridicule on those posting scripture.
It's companion verse (contextually) would be:
Amplified Bible (AMP)
And wherever they do not receive and accept and welcome you, when you leave that town shake off [even] the dust from your feet, as a testimony against them.
Which explains why I seldom bother to visit the forums these days.
The reasoning behind informing non believers what scripture states is obvious, firstly it is a commandment of Christ:
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13 But he who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And this good news of the kingdom (the Gospel) will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then will come the end.
[Prompted] by faith Noah, being forewarned by God concerning events of which as yet there was no visible sign, took heed and diligently and reverently constructed and prepared an ark for the deliverance of his own family. By this [his faith which relied on God] he passed judgement and sentence on the world’s unbelief and became an heir and possessor of righteousness (that relation of being right into which God puts the person who has faith).
As to your hell analogy, it's a cap fits scenario.
If someone does not accept that hell may exist, it has no consequence, if someone has any inclination to think that hell does exist, they should take care to avoid it.
Nobody should take any pleasure in thinking any soul will end up in hellish situations, nor can anyone decide someone will, that is Gods decision alone.
But forewarning someone to check their 'life condition' is not an offence nor judgemental, it is being a good neighbour by making someone else aware of a possible danger ahead if they do not change their course of action.
Now I depart these forums again, dusting feet, so to speak!
Another person tickled pink at themselves for pretending they are sad about the fact that they pray for the death of others. Pray for your car keys. Don't pray for your version of God to actually live up to the example of Christ. That would be horrible. If he did, you might have to.
Nobody prays for the death of others, and you are being dramatic for effect, which is unsuitable considering the status of the situation.
Christ is the very person who was delivering the message you so obviously object to, the rest of us are just messengers and ministers of His word.
If you have a problem with what Christ told us, take it up with Him.
That's pretty much my point. You don't take it up with anyone. You guys look to scriptures for how to conduct yourselves, but you pick and choose what you want. You ignore anything that raises an eyebrow at this type of conduct. When I read the book and imagine that world and how its society functioned when Jesus was teaching, I see you and those who defend this as the pharisees. You consider the Bible to be law. You see yourself as the interpreter of the law. The keepers of the law. If we follow your law we can be as righteous as you, in your eyes.
You look at it no differently than the children of Israel at the foot of the mountain. Trembling in fear as the thunder rolled. You guys want to be Moses or Jesus, but all you are doing is spouting words you don't understand and acting at direct odds with the good news you think you share.
Emile, you posted the question, why did you do that?
To raise contention?
I and others have attempted to answer your question, now you attempt to label me a Pharisee when you have never met me.
I try not to pontificate over anyone else's life, but I do retain the right to tell anyone what scripture states, when they ask a question pertaining to scripture, which obviously they cannot define for themselves from scripture.
I really cannot be bothered to quibble about these things, this just reminds me of the futility of time wasted in these forums, which seem dead anyway.
You certainly have the right to share your ideas. I have the right to read them and share what I think of them. I apologize if honesty offends you.
Didn't you knock the dust off three posts ago? Why do you keep posting? Do you like getting your sandals dusty?
I honestly don't think Jesus was actually calling anyone a pig. He was simply drawing a comparison that was intended to be extreme and shocking in order to drive home how precious his message was. Just as a pig would have no use or appreciation of pearls, the Pharisees would have no use or appreciation for his or the apostle's subsequent ministries. I don't think for a minute he was suggesting that Pharisees, Gentiles or Atheist Hubbers spend their time eating and wallowing in shit.
I don't think so either. But, I don't get out of that passage anything near what they do. I simply wonder how they can feel comfortable interpreting it that way and openly using it in that manner. I don't think it reflects well on them and having read through my responses last night, I don't think it reflects well on me when I comment on my opinion of their opinions. Sometimes the holier than thou bs pushes me past the point of courtesy. I need to work on that.
I think the common misinterpretation is that Jesus was saying that those who would not accept his message were like pigs in all regards. This fits with their theology that unbelievers are going to hell, so calling someone a pig is an apt description for unbelievers which they hold in disdain. Yet again we have people reading something at face value and not really thinking. If they really thought about it, they would conclude that Jesus calling an unbeliever a pig would be out of character, and therefore there must be an alternative explanation.
1. Do pearls ever go BEHIIND swine?
2. Am I to assume it's HP-acceptable to call a fellow hubber "swine" whereas to say "You are a pig" will get you banned?
I am obviously spending my time in the wrong forums!
Please remember at all times to take the Bible, in context and as a whole.
While Jesus said there would be those who would trample his word under their feet like filthy animals, not knowing what to do with something precious...
Paul said he, (A Christian) was the chief among sinners. Whist a non believer, he was a murderer. Whilst a believer, he struggled with his flesh... basically like we all do. Desiring to do things God forbid.
Back to Jesus. The bible says while we were sinners, *that is when he died for us. (Not when we were saved.) The Bible also says salvation is a free gift lest any man should boast that he is saved b/c of his own goodness (which doesn't exist apart from Christ.)
So if you put it all together, Christians are no better than non believers and Jesus loves every man and gave his life so that we *all could be saved.
Emile, Jesus loves you as much as he loves me... as much as he loves Mother Theresa and the mother of the bombers. God wants to save us from hell, not send us there. Heaven is the gift, if the gift is rejected, what else is there? It's Heaven or Hell... how do we blame God if He begs us to run into His arms?
You may have misunderstood me. I think blaming God for anything is ludicrous. We live here, together. Whatever we say or do is on our heads. No one else's. Nor do I doubt that all of humanity is on an equal footing, spiritually.
I do believe that Christians don't accept that we are all in the same boat. You think you have checked a block and were somehow removed from the ship. I simply don't think it works that way. I think, the good news is that we are all on the same ship. Our final destinations are the same. The good news is meant to bring us together, not separate us. No one can prove anything they imagine on a cosmic level. I don't see how it benefits anyone to imagine a cosmic level where your neighbor dies. I know the canned response is because you love them, but my reaction to that is....Really?
I've always thought the point behind Jesus' teachings were to do the right thing, for the right reasons. To do the right thing by others. To think about your actions and understand your motivations. I don't see how anyone gets a hellfire and brimstone message out of it.
Which I totally respect your right to believe as you please. I'm not all knowing.
Really. Im a selfish bastard. If God didn't fill my heart with love for another human being, I wouldn't go out of my way for anyone. I gain nothing from being hated and mocked by non believers. (Ppl I might actually enjoy being friends with in real life.) My only motivation is that I might share something that causes them to dwell on the fact that God loves them long enough that they might at some point in their lives, take a leap of faith and reach out to Him.
Ok, here's the big thing you HAVE to realize about Christians... they are exactly like everyone else. Some have horrible personalities, some have good ones...There are also ppl who believed in God, but maybe never allowed God to transform their hearts... they run around telling ppl they are going to "burn if they don't turn" and they seem to get some smug satisfaction from that. Yuck! Jesus didn't die for NOTHING! He died to provide a way to avoid Hell, so we could be with God forever... a God who created and adores us. This is not the msg those ppl are preaching. All I can say is ignore them the way you would ignore your mother when she tells you you'd be more attractive if you just put on some lipstick. But don't ignore God! Avoid every Christian on earth if you can't find one to relate to, but don't ignore the lover of your soul. Seek Him and His will on your own if need be, and then decide.
I think your passion is sweet, but weren't you one of the ones supporting the pearls before swine comments?
I know here in the forums we tend to think everyone is lumped together. But, when I complain about statements made it isn't intended to be a complaint about all Christians. It is shock at the comments made. I think everyone has a good heart. I think every person posting on this forum does so because they honestly believe they have something of value to share. But, pearls before swine comments are basically saying you don't think sh#t of what other hubbers think. That doesn't mean I don't think your heart its in the right place. It means you aren't doing justice to the heart of another.
That is a very good point. No, I wouldn't say I don't care about what others think, I am actually into hearing other ppls thoughts and stories. I find ppl endlessly interesting, except at work where I tend to wish that 98% of the customers I wait on would burn in hell. haha! NO! I didn't say that. lol... they;'re just so freaking evil. haha... ok... anyway, I don't think I ever commented at all on the pearls before swine thing pretty much b/c I know that conversations like this will ensue when ppl are understandably insulted, b/c the word of God isn't presented correctly... at least many times it isn't. If I did say anything, it most likely had to do with a certain someone who shall remain nameless cause he likes to have be banned every other day. He comes across a little swiney at times, but maybe it's just a personality thing... maybe I wouldn't like him if he were a Christian either... but all that aside, I'm truly sorry if you or any one else has been hurt by anything any of us Christians have said... I believe you're absolutely right and very generous to say, I think we all do have the best of intentions, or at least I hope so.
I'm right there with you on the customer comment. But, I've found the most difficult top deal with see my most faithful customers. The ones I adore ate one time clients, it seems.
I apologize also if anything I have said offends. I don't mean to be offensive, but am naturally so. It's a weakness I sometimes forget I'm supposed to be working on.
Yeah, you didn't seem like yourself on this thread... all cool and collected... the words must have really stuck you. Im sorry for that.
I'll follow your lead and leave a Hubber unnamed as the blame for that. We all put our foot in our mouths, at times. I think what set me off was, not only did they not back down from the insults, they started a thread in hopes of finding support for it.
You know what? I know it's not right, but I agree with you. I don't mind when Christians defend their faith... as a matter of fact, they should most times. But I don't like it when they start threads in order to invoke controversy. They have the same right non believers do, but I don't like it much.
Hello Beth. You are aware that to be consistent, Emile's "Nazi death camp guard" analogy refers to you. I am not the one who set her off with the swine comment, however I also agree with the intent and meaning of the verse. I only chimed in here because, in light of her leveling the most offensive, misdirected and unfair personal charge I have received on the forums to date, she starts a thread because she is so offended by the term swine in a bible verse being quoted correctly, and not even directly in reference to her. I do agree the person using it had fake pearls, but the quote was still valid when considered apart from their specific content.
I actually thought you did a good job explaining your motive with the bridge out thing, but I might have let the whole nazi thing go. I wasn't actually referring to you with any of my posts... Ive always appreciated your educated and well articulated posts.
I don't care what Emile calls me... if she was referring to me... it is a point of view she has from not understanding ours. It offends me so little compared to the blue man. Maybe it's a personality thing... I like her. I have heard Chris say he liked the blue man and Im like... "Why?!" lol... Im sorry if you thought I was putting you down. That was the furthest thought from my mind.
Have you been able to explain the difference in the two? The only explanation, to date, is that it is God's will.
I was thinking about you and your philosophy this morning. The first person in the Bible that it is said God considered righteous was a person who stood up for others and defended them, when he had the power to. Didn't he run off to war to save a neighbor? His neighbor wasn't a part of his religion. He didn't have one. He did it because it was the right thing to do. Didn't he stand up to God and argue for justice? Would Lot have survived if Abraham hadn't been willing to fall out of good grace by questioning the fairness of the plans?
Many of you look to the example of Abraham being willing to kill his son when commanded, but you don't think about his willingness to demand justice for others, by an earthly understanding of the word. If you don't insist on justice for others what does that say about you? If you won't stand up for your fellow man, why do you think God would stand for you?
Yes, we are "swiney" because we criticize your religion, but you will insult us personally for doing so.
Who is actually acting swiney here?
"We" as in those you despise and insult.
Who are you to say who I despise? There are very few I despise and those I do are usually responsible for molesting and hurting children and the weak... is that you? I'm just extremely unfond of you and your ways especially... as for the others... I doubt you find any who said I so much as disliked them. Ive already said I like Emile and Radman. JM and I don't seem to get along well, but I don't dislike her either. I just feel like she condescends to me more often than not and that is my issue. I have to work on that... maybe it's a pride thing, IDK, but I don't think I dislike anyone. If you'd mind your manners, I might even be able to like you too.
My manners have nothing to do with my criticisms of your religion. And, it is those criticisms that bother and upset you. I could care less if you like or dislike me, that has nothing to do with the function and purpose of public forums. Get over it.
Why not just focus on the subject matter rather than the individual and we can all get along. Thanks.
Yes, let's get back to criticizing Christians... that's *always the subject on your mind.
Again, you appear quite confused. We are criticizing Christianity.
I just woke up and read through this exchange. I swear it's like a boy in third grade (no offense there ATM) picking at the girl he likes.
lol... Well I guess this is what you do when you can't reach her braids. I hope that didn't sound dirty or he's gonna lay into me again. That did sound dirty.
Wow, your reading comprehension skills are far worse than I had originally thought.
Oooh, he gotchu good Emile... did you feel that on the left braid or the right?
Well if you count calling me a delusional liar, he flirts with me endlessly.
The subtext embedded between the lines appeared in bold on that exchange.
In my defense I'd just awoken. I may have been a tad woozy. In retrospect, I can see how ludicrous it might seem to think you liked someone.
So, literally everyone you come in contact with is evil and should burn in hell, because you tend to wish it.
Hence, everyone else is the problem.
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