I have published many religious as well as spiritual hubs and in return I receive allot of good support however I have also received many people that have left comments of hatred on my site! Why do you think this and do you think this right? Do we not have the right to the freedom of our religion on Hubpages?
Sure you do, and you have the right to moderate the comments left for you also. You have to understand that Hubpages is an international community and taking stronghold stances on religious issues in a public manner is an open ticket for controversy. If you are steadfast on your beliefs then support them, just don't try to convince someone that has other beliefs that yours are right. If you're not up for public debate then don't make your beliefs public.
The scriptures have a lot of references to this. Expect being reviled and even imprisoned. If this is your message and mission keep it up.
You also have the option to shake the dust off your sandals and move elsewhere. Seek your own guidance in this area, that's what we all have to do.
Walk with me, the journey has started. Strenghten the army, spread the message, ignore the humans who ignore you, the sacred religions turns human to beast, not to blame the religions. The function of religions being poluted, it became a wall of HATEness between them. The wall of HATENESS getting stronger, religion fanatics let the hateness to conquer them instead of the love.
"You are being controlled by satan while you are busy hating him". chukra G.
Only those who don't know Christ can be controlled by satan. Satan is the prince of the power of the air in this world. Jesus has told us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. We have no hate. We are in this world but not of this world. So which world do you belong to?
Only those who don't know Christ can be controlled by satan
"Me and my father are One" Jesus. Do you know the father he is talking about?
John 10:30 Jesus speaking," I and My Father are one." God the Father
So you can connect with the father directly? Just like Jesus, Buddha and Muhammad did?
Of course, Mohit - anyone can. Surely you learned that when you become enlightened?
I know Jenny I was just asking Born Again 05.
Yet you choose to call people that you know nothing about fools? Definitely you walk your talk!
First of all I admire you for posting spiritual Hubs etc.
I joined Hub Pages a few weeks ago and have only recently been coming to Forums. In the last week, I've been responding to religious postings and noticed some hostility.
The fact is some people are ignorant. Secondly, society has changed so verses of various religious/holy books are either taken out of context or are ridiculed even by highly educated and intelligent people.
So, I pat you on the back and pray that God gives you wisdom for writing Hubs and responding to requests. I've actually decided to steer clear of all Religious postings for a while. I just want Peace. Regards, Elena.
I'm just finding out that the 'E' in your screen name stands for Elena...beautiful name.
A forum on religion is not necessarily a forum on Christianity.
Religion is not Christianity, and even what is passed off as Christianity may not be Christianity at all.
Which is why I hesitated a lot to start a hub on religion.
I like discussing doctrine, but seeing the kind of comments and commentators here, nah, don't think it's worth it.
one sharpens iron with iron, and there's no iron to sharpen mine with here.
most of the commentators don't know the Bible, have a "hearsay" view of Christianity and Jesus, and others are just plain ....
I think everyone has the right to their own beliefs, but the non-believers aren't the only ones who are being impolite, to say the least. I think by "non-believers" you mean people who do not believe the same as you. You have mentioned "the true religion" in your threads and that is offensive and prejudicial. So how can you get offended at others?
Well, mdawson, we're at post #60+. What have you learned from the hatemongers? They have crawled into your thread, finding ways to berate you. They smirk at how clever they are in diverting the subject to something else. For people that hate religion, they love to hang around it.
People that define themselves by something that doesn't exist are irrational. They love to hate you; what can I say? Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to reading your hubs.
On a different note, what I said earlier doesn't apply to everyone, but it does apply to atheists that keep circling the religion wagon. In the words of historian Paul Johnson, they're "great haters." What's so funny is that they go around calling everyone else "hateful." After a while, it's not so much an obstruction as it is a sideshow. It's their time to waste, so let them waste it.
But that doesn't apply to everyone. I agree with one of your first posters that religion is controversial and you need to be prepared to state your position forthrightly. Your position is going to get attacked. If you want to honor the Lord, as I do, it goes with the territory.
But, I also think that writers often don't think that they're coming across as "mean" or "hateful." Most of us spend our time writing and refining our work. We're trying to make it sharp (you know, "clarify, clarify"); we want what we say to cut through the fog. So, many writers tend to have a sharp tongue (or at least a sharp pen!). They hurt people with their words, but most wouldn't hurt anyone physically (Of course, if you stole their story, but I don't even want to go there...).
As for the profanity directed at you (or on hubpages, "profanity lite" #@*&@%$--I don't think I do it very well....) or the "you're a moron" comments, that's just the trash you have to kick under your feet while you proceed. No place is litter-free (well, maybe except Disneyworld).
Yes, you have
Yes, you have
if that's true, they will just loooooooooove my next one...
this is what I think. Religion does NOT equal GOD.
Many many many people have been badly hurt by organized religion.
If you are strong in your faith, no one should be able to shake it.
Hatred is a blind and destructive emotion, but just look at history, the fight between believers and unbelievers has always been there. plenty of "believers" have been hatefull.
Most peole are real happy about freedom of speech 'till someone disagrees with them.
If you cant stand criticism, dont talk about controversial things.
You have the freedom of religion, and so do they. If you put out your opinion onto an open environment when anyone can comment, you open yourself up to everyone else's opinion as well. Some people do not handle themselves in an eloquent fashion but, that's why there is the little "approve comments before posting" box for those with limited vocabularies
you're faster witht he submit button...lol
Don't let it bother you too much, dawson. Its part of christian life. Count it all joy.
I think 'religion' and religious beliefs become an integral part of our identities. When our identity is attacked (religious beliefs are attacked) it feels personal and upsetting. I think that debate and discussion are ways to connect with each other about our beliefs and identities. Although I do not like to see abuse, some conflict is better here in print than in real physical situations. Defend what statements you can, disregard the abusive commenting whenever possible.
Guys, I really liked that "stones in our crown" statement. Do gotta remember that the stones are really diamonds, rubies, emeralds, sapphires...all that beautiful hidden stuff...! Good and great going, keep it up, and make your choices.
Yeah I like that too, "stones in our crown". Good choice of words mdawson17.
I came from Europe. We always looked to America as an example for freedom, equality and so on. I found out that it is based on Christianity since before existence of US there was not those goodies on the world. Today globalist are worry what international community say. We are looking for answer to Europe but believe me they do not have an answers and they are in bad shape.
I am a believer, and I am looking on religion as man's opinion. But I do not have to be rude to religious people, which is in those days getting worse. Many religious are very good people.
We believers have an advantage, we love them (unbelievers) no matter what. They have nothing, only arguments.
I heard this song at church and I feel it answers the original question? Their hearts are lonely, hurt, lost and they can feel when they are negative, they gang up on Christians, beacause they can't stand the light.
I can tell you with certainty that the majority of folks you will see here are NOT lonely at heart, hurt or lost. Their reasons for refuting the sometimes lucid but often times ill-worded claims of many people are based in very sound concepts - don't take Mark's slightly inflammatory approach to mean that he is sick at heart.
As to the "ganging up" on anyone - it is a two way road. It is a cycle that will not break until one or the other side decides to say - believe as you will, but allow me the same courtesy.
Truer words of wisdom were never spoken. How many people deride other religions by making statements like ..... (fill the blanks) isn't a religion but a way of life unlike other religions. Other religions have no relationship unlike.....
For a .... other religious believers will be infidels and for a ... other religious believers are non believers.
GamerGirl what you say may seem easy but trust me it is so difficult to follow in public/private lives for many. If I wasn't your fan already I would have become one now. I bow to your wisdom
Earnesthub complimented you earlier on this post, Gamergirl, and I want to as well.
I generally avoid the religion forums, because I find the go around and the black and white hue of the posters' comments not that interesting and generally fundamental in nature--those seem to be the ones who like to preach... People of faith obviously have a right to their beliefs. Do they have the right to proselytize to everyone else is the question...it goes back to that 'lonely, lost and hurt.' I don't think so. I think those that are proclaiming (not discussing) and at an extreme are more likely to fit into that category.
In the world at large, death and destruction in the name of religion has been a dominant theme throughout history. And I don't think all that is about God. Fundamentalism in the United States and many other countries is also the root cause of much hate, ignorance, close mindedness and misinformation...and I daresay deaths (yeah, how about those Salem witch trials or the Crusades?).
I just wanna also say, when I first started on the Hubpages forums, lol, I was 'attacked' by Mark Knowles when I wondered into a religion forum. It was long ago...but I think I was talking about myths and Joseph Campbell. I remember I was editing a friend's thesis or something like that. When I called him on this, he immediately apologized and made a joke with a . Then I started to notice that many of the 'Christians' and others on here were his friends, and that they seemed to like the back and forth. I also noticed he helps people out with technical and Hubpage questions whenever asked. I believe that's something some do not seem to get (grok). I wanted to put that forth, for those who would attack and state 'bigot' without knowledge.
lol He also likes Heinlein - you know, for some, that's really enough. Those who read a couple other books than the Bible, that is, .
This cannot happen ever. The bible says quite clearly that anyone who does not believe is a fool and quite clearly instructs believers to "spread the word."
How on earth can this ever be turned into allowing some one the courtesy of respecting their non-belief in an invisible super being?
Hence the "attacks" that are made by people who "hate" god and "hate" believers.
This is the problem with holding a wholly irrational belief. There is no room for compromise - ever. Which is why it will inevitably end in yet another religious war.
And anyone who "honors the lord" by spreading ther belief is obviously going to come in for some critiscism. The fact that they perceive this as "hatred" is really the basis of their entire belief system.
Goes with the territory. If some one argues that there is not a god and the idea of being "saved," is laughable, by their definition, this is hatred.
They fail to see just exactly who started the entire discussion.
It certainly did not start with, "There is no god."
Far as I am concerned, people can believe whatever they like. But advertising it all over the place is aggressive, obnoxious and designed to cause fighting and strife.
This is what religion is all about - control and domination. Billboards all over the place, people knocking on your door to sell you salvation, leaving pamphlets under car windshields, building edifices to the invisible super being, fighting over which irrational belief is best etc etc etc.
"Honoring the lord," should be done in private - not shoved down everyone's throat.
Maybe then we atheists would have some respect for it.
And this is not "hatred" directed at people who believe. It is merely asking for common courtesy. Stop spreading your message and I will stop criticizing you for being 100% wrong and wholly irrational. Too much to ask?
Be a good example of what you believe, as consistently as possible. There will be enough people who see your light and want to follow that kind of life. And, we never know that those who criticize may one day be converted. Remember Saul?
Don't concern yourself with the arguing, the Spirit of Contention multiplies if we participate, but dies when left to its own.
Life your life according to your belief. I wish you well. )
Gamegirl, that has to be the best comment ever left on a religious forum. Like Mark I don't mind a discussion, but prickle when someone else's god threatens me.
I agree with Earnestshub...that is a very nicely worded comment you left Gamergirl!
People also respond more positively to grammatically correct thread topic titles. It shows you took the time to think it through.
It was the Psalmist who said " Only the fool says in his heart ,there is no God"
I think only a "fool" tries to define God.
You are really something, Sandra. Very few people have the ability to expand there vision to include the whole of humanity. The concept/definition/purpose of "God" is certainly an individual personal preference and easier to describe for many but difficult to define.
You nailed it.
Hey, thanks for chiming in Aya and Sandy All that fool/psalmist thingy was in relation to this one http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/15928?page=3#post218089
I personally do not care what people believe in their heart of hearts, but I do resent when people say that something is true or untrue and then can't back it up with facts. Bible scripture quotes do not pass as fact anymore than Quran scripture quotes do, or any other holy book for that matter.
Face it, if you believe something, that's great, but don't tell me what I believe is garbage because your unproven holy book(s) or dogmas demand that you believe it and therefore it is completely true and what I believe is completely false.
The only kind of things I "attack" in hub pages are the things where someone says I have to believe this because the bible (or any other holy book) says so. I have found there is no proof of these books, nothing that would stand up in an impartial court of law, for example, but I have no problem with people taking them on faith, just as long as they do not try to pass off their faith as factual information. The evolution vs. creationism "debate" comes readily to mind. I really don't care if you believe in evolution or not, but do not try to tell me that because the bible says so, it wipes out scientific knowledge that has taken in millions of pieces of evidence in favor of it. In truth there is more known about evolution than there is about electricity, yet no one doubts electricity!
Anyway, that's my two cents worth.
*waiting for some scriptures scholar to come up with the opposite quote*
Mdawson, you and I have written comments for each other and although I may disagree with your point of view about religion I respect your right to believe as you desire.
One possible reason for negative criticism, one that inspires me, is when people with a strong point of view, be it political or religious or whatever, write as if people who don't believe like them are somehow ignorant or wrong-headed. I seldom argue vehemently with sincere people, as long as they don't trigger the "holier than thou" button in me. I may ask them why they believe as they do and point out factual errors in their logic, but unless someone just blows me off I try not to get like a know-it-all. (And sometimes I may fail, but I am only human! Ha-ha!!!)
I applaud people who hold their beliefs sincerely, even if I disagree with them. And as others have said, if you put your ideas out there, expect praise and disparaging remarks as well. Keep writing and you'll be OK.
Yes its amazing how people can be disrespectful and get all personal when someone beleives or think differently to them .
Since Ive just written my first 'controversial' hub ,wasnt to me , but anyway convinces me that there are nutcases on both sides of the fence...as Im sure someone thinks I am too I enjoy hearing different opinions. I do my best to answer fully, but its my hub ,so if I do I do ,if I dont I dont.
Detention days are long over , Thank God ,hehe
Respect , Courtesy and no name calling sure works for me! (even if we dont like one anothers god) n
I have respect for all peoples' beliefs. Respect will get you a long way. Eaglekiwi, you have respect and humility. You are NOT a nut.
I agree with Eaglekiwi's last comment. I am making an effort to show dignity and courtesy even when I disagree. People who don't respect others usually don't respect themselves very much either.
mdawson17, if people are going to be rude and hostile they'll write comments on any subject. You should see a couple of my Hubs that are about nothing controversial whatsoever - and that have absolutely insane, hostile, comments (although some I haven't allowed because they were so crude). Religious-slanted material invites more anger. If I see someone's Hub that is "heavily religious" and involves a religion or beliefs different from mine I just won't read it. A lot of people like to fight about religion (as world history has shown us, and which I kind of a strange concept, isn't it.... ).
It's the same both ways really...."Why has non believers come against the believers platform on hubpages?" Or it could be "Why have the believers come against the non believers platform on hubpages?"
Because they read something they don't like, and have to respond to it.....They seem to forget the "agree to disagree and leave it at that" leaving their response that is sometimes not very nice at all....Christians and non christians alike.....
Assumptive statements will and should be challenged. It is insulting to non-believers to be threatened by some other person's god, or to be talked down to as if the only reason not to agree is they do not know or understand the material discussed.
I think believers do not fully understand how non-believers sometimes see them. I wonder how many believers would take me seriously if I said "Mickey Mouse is coming to make sure we are saved for eternity." Really, how many of you true believers would take me seriously if I turned up on your doorstep and wanted to spend an hour trying to convince you to believe in Mickey. "Come on people, lets get down on our knees and say a few words of prayer to the mouse."
Be honest now, how would you react?
Oh I know you dont hate me Mark , I just piss you off
I am not a fanatic or crazy , I have different beliefs, but I still put my pants on the same way as everyone else when I get outta bed in the morning.
but listen lets be fair here,
Secular veiwpoints and many decisions are made throughout Universities and Governments all over the globe.
I feel offended when they shove their propaganda down my throat , on my television screen , in my childs school sylabus too!
We could get along , if we played nice
So it is too much to ask then?
I thought so. Oh well. Thanks for being honest.
And no you don't piss me off per se. Your irrational beliefs and assumptive statements are offensive. But none of you believers seem to understand that. How come?
If youre gonna answer youre own questions , no need for me too ,now is there!
by the way check out the thread 'Analyse A Hubber' you might be pleasantly surprised
OK - then answer the question if I mistakenly took your answer to mean what I thought it did.
Is it too much to ask that you stop spreading your beliefs?
I will check out the other thread.
I do not shrove my beliefs down anyones throat
Will I stop sharing my beliefs-No
Im amazed you would ask me too
Really - why is that? As I explained - people who do not share your beliefs find the way they are spread and the way you make assumption that everyone else must believe the stuff you believe to be offensive. The very idea that there is an invisible super being who is judging me to decide if I get to live forever or not and the idea that a "personal; relationship with god," is something that is somehow better than the way I live my life is offensive to me.
Why should I not ask you to stop being offensive to me and others?
Is that not a reasonable request?
Hi Mark. Welcome back. In your absence we all behaved so very civil the atheism is boring thread started by enders is just about dead.
We missed you but things had got so very respectful and fair I doubt you would have been comfortable.
As for me I am avoiding useless arguments. I'm busy writing hubs and doing my offline economic survival thing.
I mean at the end of the day it's a choice between a hopeless end or an endless hope.
Here is some food for thought that I might do a thread or a hub on: "The book of Revelation predicts a global crisis at end times".
Ah - you mean a bunch of religionists sitting around congratulating each other on choosing the correct irrational belief system and going to live forever while the heathens burn? Yes - does sound a bit uncomfortable. Never mind - I am livening things up a bit for you.
Thanks for the welcome back. Perhaps you could answer my question?
As for the global crisis - ever hear of the south sea bubble? Or any other crisis that is the inevitable result of our Judeo-Christian approach to living life that involves expansion, conquest and growth growth growth to sustain itself.
On the contrary the discussion was taken over by the atheists, and as I predicted very very early in the thread was really a non-argument once both sides accepted the inevitable lose-lose conclusion.
Cyclical boom and bust are intrinsic to modern capitalism. What I'm talking about go see this hub as a kindergarten reader in whats coming. Not a religious hub.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Did-Goldman-Sac … Depression
Hint hint, the conspiracy theorists are on to something but they are looking in the wrong places for the ultimate answer.
It might suit an unrepentant cynic like yourself to see God as an alien astronaut but don't rule out a Superior Intelligence exists somewhere with a cosmic plan.
Dear oh lordy dee. Haven't you read your book? That is the trouble with taking it all so literally - you miss all the useful stuff.
"And, behold, there came up out of the river seven well favored kine and fat fleshed; and they fed in a meadow. And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill favored and lean fleshed; and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river. And the ill favored and lean fleshed kine did eat up the seven well favored and fat kine. "
How about answering the question?
Guess you have not read any of my hubs or blogs either huh?
Way out of the literal sphere when it comes to looking at the book of Revelation friend. And the story of Joseph you cited demonstrated the sovereignty of Yahweh over the affairs of humanity.
I've read your very useful hub on traffic, google ranking etc. The bike thing.
Which question? I'm too busy to engage in pointless trivia which will not enlighten either of us. No wise warrior begins a battle that he is not sure to win. Until you open your mind to the possibility of a Loving Deity any discussion with you will be a stalemate at best.
But hub pages is not the same without you. Don't stay away so long next time.
I'll pray that the Lord will give me the wisdom to point you to His love. Until then lets agree to disagree.
Condescending as usual. Oh well, you learn what you want from the bible, I learn the way the world really works.
If you want to ignore the "proof" that boom and bust cycles occur in nature and did so in biblical times - you go right ahead and "interpret" it to mean that god is in charge and it is all about "modern capitalism."
As for the question - here it is again:
I and others find it offensive to be told that I am a fool for not believing - and that you have all the answers in a ready made book written by an invisible super being and if I just opened my eyes to your truth I could live for ever.
Is it too much to ask that you stop telling me this?
I dont deny that boom and bust cycles occur in nature. There are all kinds of cycles in nature. You do forex so you know about fibonacci sequence. Fibonacci sequence is also in nature, well similar patterns at least. One of the reasons I do not take you seriously is that you impute to me an attitude that I dont have. You dont know me well enough to know my TRUE attitude about many things. Simply because I'm a believer you make false generalisations. In fact global warming is not a result of man but the cycle of the sun.
Here is the rub. I believe in the sovereignty of God. I believe that nature is negatively affected by sin. I believe, and I trust you will respect my human rights to have a belief, I believe that God will restore the cosmos to a state of harmony at the end of the ages. I believe that we are living close to that eschatological era, and if you were patient enough I could share with you the biblical signs of the end. The conspiracy theorists are barely scratching the surface with their illuminati/global elite/new world order warnings. There is another side to the conspiracy predicted by the bible.
I'm sorry if you found my previous response condescending. Not my style to be condescending. what I was trying to say was that I find it spiritually and intellectually non productive to pursue endless debates where THERE APPEARS TO BE no effort on one side to even begin to respect the human right to have freedom of conscience and religious beliefs.
Go read the last five pages of enders thread and you will see that the forum can get along in peace once we communicate with respect. The sad part is that once the thing became so sterile it sort of ran out of passion. In other words jenny succeeded in reining in everyone, and with your absence everything became...calm. So far!!!
Your QUESTION is strange. Faith systems propogate themselves by proselytising, in my case by witnessing about the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
But we prefer to live the gospel. Take for example the story of eden, the best diet goes back to that formula. If you are really nice I'll tell you the story of the man behind Kellogg's corn flakes. Gotta run now. As usual I used up my hub article time on the religion forum.
"I'll pray that the Lord will give me the wisdom to point you to His love." I will hope that you eventually come to your senses and realize your irrational beliefs are just that. Is that the sort of respect you are looking for?
Now will you please answer the question that the other religionist decided not to?
You can believe whatever you like. I do not care one whit.
Do you think you could stop telling me that this is the one and only way and I should believe it also? Or rather "pray that the lord will give me the wisdom to point you to his love." And therefore believe the same rubbish you believe?
Too much to ask?
Exactly. I find this offensive and have asked you to stop.
Will you respect my request - or not?
Don't hold your breath Mark. I have asked for the god botherers to do this since my first reply in religious threads. They just do not see their presumptive insults.This thread is a prime example, glendoncaba keeps saying he is not being condescending in the same sentence that is offensive. "None so blind" and all that.
The above is the disputed 'prayer'.
Any open minded person will see that this is an admission that I cant humanly do more and must appeal for divine help FOR ME in order to communicate a response to Mark. I don't recall the great terror taking offense at this statement.
I believe there is an intense effort by atheists to scare believers into a corner. Unfair debating tactics are so transparent. Why do you persist with such tactics. I try to be very forgiving but I'm only human, so sooner or later I will give up trying to communicate this gospel of Christ to some of you. Wipe dust of that city.
Don't laugh in victory too soon. Rejection and withdrawal of warning message is usually followed by divine judgment.
We persist because God is not willing that any should perish...
EDIT: Here is Mark's comment on that 'prayer thing'
("I'll pray that the Lord will give me the wisdom to point you to His love." I will hope that you eventually come to your senses and realize your irrational beliefs are just that. Is that the sort of respect you are looking for?)
EDIT: You see even Mark sees that what he should attack here is the philosophical foundation of my position, not my offer of prayer since there was not an explicit offer.
Mind you I would be a bigger hypocrite than what you are accusing me of if I deny that I pray for others.
Truth is i can only afford to continue on Hub pages if i learn SEO etc from gurus like Mark instead of engaging in pointless religious trivia that will lead nowhere. It is not the approach of my denomination to conduct hostile debates. We do bible studies, build schools and hospitals.
Mark also quoted you "I'll pray that the Lord will give me the wisdom to point you to His love." I will hope that you eventually come to your senses and realize your irrational beliefs are just that. Is that the sort of respect you are looking for?
Don't call me a liar unless you want to be seen as the hypocrite that you are.
You are incorrect when you implied that I patronized him by offering to pray for him. His response showed no such interpretation.
I offered to pray for ME to get wisdom to do something, namely "point you to His love."
You are wrong. And you should be man enough to admit it. But that would make you kind and generous to a Christian...
I can be a bit tactless sometimes but to insult Mark with advertising pious prayers for him would be begging for a fight. His response was to my prayer for wisdom to point him to God's love.
When I am wrong I am man enough to apologise. This time you need to admit that once again you jumped the gun because you assumed you were dealing with a blind religious fanatic. So funny but I am probably anti-religion in more issues than you.
For example I believe in separation of church and state. See. You guys are boxing in the dark when you take on Christians and generalise.
The topic of this thread is seen. But why this blind hatred of all things religious. Intolerance only leads to the inhumanity of man to man.
We are arguing about semantics as usual when the real debate is freedom of conscience. You will never ever, by the grace of God (forgive a foolish believer for invoking divine aid) find me condemning or denying right to free speech for or against your religion or lack of it, so long as it does not injure my right to freedom of conscience.
I may have been mistaken, and if so I apologise, I will examine the thread to see if that is the only reference to prayinf for some one, but let's be clear. You call me a liar because I may have misread one reply, and in light of your arrogant reply and how you jump to "liar" this is more indication of the point I am trying to make. Your replies are assumptive. You assume ignorance. I do not need to see all the posted scripture, I learnt it well as have many others who arrive at different conclusions to you. You try to back away from any real discussion, with outrageous assertions that those who disagree with you are "dangerous" You must be looking in the mirror of your own sub-conscious!
Allow me to clear this up for you then.
Yes - I am offended by the statement you made. Not because you are praying for me, but the underlying assumption that I am ignorant and hateful whereas you have wisdom and love.
And if you pray hard enough to your invisible super being - I will change and start thinking the way you do.
This is offensive on so many levels and at least 4 people on this thread have tried to explain why to you.
Rather than accept what they are saying and perhaps rethink the way you speak to people - you are arguing that it is either not offensive or you should be allowed to continue behaving in this way because you are right.
Not really sure how else to get through to you other than to pray to the one true god (FSM) that you eventually see the error of your ways, become enlightened as to exactly how ignorant and offensive you are and start to think the way I think - which is, incidentally, the perfect way of being and much, much better than your way of being.
@ earnest - talking to a brick wall.
@ Sandy - well said you dolphin hating communist, you.
Cool it big fellow. Did you get this hot when we were talking or only because your cohorts pushed you. I recall having a civil discussion.
Well if this is how you feel i apologise for hurting you. I prefer to build bridges than walls.
Seriously Mark you trumpeted at my position generally but look at our talk again. This bellowing now is not you. Quite overdone. The conversation was too short to warrant this.
But if you really feel this way then I'm sorry. I really prefer peace to war.
Tell me now. Short of shutting up, how do we begin to explore the subject of faith without your side conceding some ground.
Want to sleep but need to respond quickly:
"not because you are praying for me" Good that settles part of the issue with earnest since the prayer was for ME to get wisdom to reach you.
"assumption...ignorant and hateful" your assumption. Not mine. My assumption is that you are God's child just like me. You deserve love and respect just like me.
"4 people on this thread" the majority can be so wrong think Galileo, Columbus, Jesus etc. but I admit that i am learning to tone down to more value neutral messages where possible.
"the perfect way" OK Mark i can take a joke. You are being sarcastic right. Flying spaghetti Monster and all.
Scary isn't it? But it's true it does predict it to all those who go through the tribulation....
Thanks for your input ellie.
Even more scary is the intolerance I see in the religious forum from both sides. Yup! Both sides.
here is a fine example...praying for Mark. Rude. Assumptive.
Nothing is rude about saying one will pray for wisdom and love if one believes in the positive results of prayer. What? One may not pray for wisdom and love? Solomon prayed for the very thing in the bible. It is now politically incorrect to pray. No wonder you guys arrest pastors in Europe who preach against homosexuality. Yet the homosexual can preach his lifestyle in every schoolbook and movie.
It would be more politically correct to say I'll light some candles and hold some crystals and chant for the inner self etc etc. The foolishness of the Christian gospel is its simplicity, we pray.
Earnest you see demons in every word. I said I would pray for myself that God will grant me wisdom to communicate with Mark.
For a believer thats like saying I need to go to the library to look up a word in order to make sense of a book. So by analogy I need to consult the realm of the divine in order to proceed.
It takes a very intolerant person of any persuasion to take offense at such a statement. Look into your heart. Do you have any love for others who are different. In beliefs. Any tolerance. This is really scary. This has nothing to do with religion. This is about freedom of conscience here.
From Genesis to Revelation the story of salvation is about free will. Never by force. "Whoever believes in Him."
I predict that one day there will be a Hub Pages convention in a large city somewhere, and I will hire two bodyguards to protect me if I know you will be there.
Is it a sin to bother others with one's own personal beliefs? If this causes stress and antagonism how can it not be?
Something interesting. I did a hub on Bible's hidden stories where I took all the names out of the book of Genesis and translated them from Hebrew and sure enough, on a hunch, when you put them all together in the order that they appear without repeating the names, you get a whole new story.
Funny thing happened. When I realized what the controversy between the gnostic and atheist secs. came from, it came from the beginning of the the story which states.
"Get ye out of your head that Yaw is God."
Have fun with it, check it out if you like.
You are free to disseminate information promoting atheism. Religious people are free to propagate their faith. My goodness this is not the Dark Ages.
You are offended by free people in a free society being free to share their faith. What is this? The Inquisition? Ever heard of the American Declaration and Bill of Rights. My goodness what is it with you guys?
I hold many of the philosophic positions of atheists. Surprise surprise. In fact in modern times I prefer a democratic secular state to a democratic religious state. Every time.
But get with it. There is a human right called freedom of conscience. I respect your right to disseminate agnosticism/atheism, and I insist that you respect believers right to express their religion, so long as such expression is not injurious to your wellbeing or freedoms.
You guys scare me. You are worse than the religious fanatics. Your attitude smacks of Nazism/fascism/communism/intolerance which breeds the inhumanity of man to man. Seriously, I am feeling very very scared right now. Your intolerance is scary.
You know what is more scary. If all the world were atheists, but say some of us have a different philosophy of atheism, you would insist that we who are 'different atheists' get in line or be ostracized, ridiculed, etc.
Intolerance is the scariest attitude on the planet, at least on hub planet.
Guys as a believer let me say you do not have to become a convert for me to love you or respect you. And when I make a statement of faith you are not to read 'condescending', read 'statement of faith'. I am not offended when you articulate your faith in no God (yes that too requires a lot of faith). In fact all, if not most, believers experience doubt on the journey of faith. And this forum has forced me to come face to face with some of my own fundamental questions. The difference between us is that I choose to continue on the rugged Christian journey.
Let me give you another surprise. I have studied Marxist/Leninist political theory with the leader of the communist party while at university, long before I studied theology. I understand dialectical materialism and the utter repudiation of religion by scientific socialism. So even the atheistic state propagated its ideology internationally.
My foolish beliefs in the bible is what took me through university without becoming a communist. My belief in bible prophecy told me that the greatest threat to freedom was not communism but an end time Antichrist coalition which will include American Protestants. You see while the world was watching the Berlin Wall I was watching the people who orchestrated the take down of the Berlin Wall.
My goodness I just wrote enough material for a hub.
And yet you still do not get it. No one is insisting that you become an atheist, but you religionists continue to be insulting and presumptive by including all in your fantasy. I am not a sinner, I am not beholden to your god, I am not a communist nor a nazi.
Wake up glendncaba, your rambling hub sized comment does nothing to bridge the gap.
Absolutely right, glendoncaba. I don't think you'd find many atheists who disagree with you.
When I read the arguments on the religion forums, I rarely see atheists or agnostics being intolerant. I do see them being rude, but only in response to religious posters who are being intolerant, bigoted, and intent on ramming their religion down other people's throats.
Now I agree two wrongs don't make a right, and anyway there's not much point in trying to argue logically with someone who is closed-minded. But I can understand why frustration causes these reactions.
In a nutshell, if religious people stopped creating threads trumpeting how only they know the truth, then they wouldn't get the reaction.
So true! I have been rude to religionists, but only in response to presumptive posts that preclude others in their belief and are rude, arrogant and assume that "non believers" are going to some mythiical hell to be tortured forever. Nice bed time story for the kids!.
As for the question - here it is again:
I and others find it offensive to be told that I am a fool for not believing - and that you have all the answers in a ready made book written by an invisible super being and if I just opened my eyes to your truth I could live for ever.
Is it too much to ask that you stop telling me this?
"fool" I personally dont like such strong words but thats what the psalmist used for the person who says there is no God. Any Christian who approaches an atheist with this as the foremost argument is on a slippery emotional slope. So on a relational level I would not begin a discussion by calling you a fool. perhaps I would prefer to discuss why the Old Testament uses the term, and show you the choice offered by God to peoples and nations in the OT.
"All the answers" No no no. Just enough water for thirsty seeker, enough bread for the one who hungers for righteousness. Enough light for those weary of darkness. Very very few answers especially for the post-modern secular minds like you guys. It is our obsession with answers that might be the obstacle. In fact the book poses penetrating questions like
"Where art thou?"
"Where is thy brother."
"Will the Son of Man find faith?"
"What will you do with this man called Jesus?"
As for your statement: 'book written by an invisible super being' nothing is further from the truth. Men and women of diverse background inspired to write.
sorry gotta run. My son wants to play. Later guys.
I agree Earnest, someone thinking they are doing me good by meddling in my personal beliefs or telling me they are praying for me is insulting. If they want to pray for me then don't tell me or do they just want others to know how pious they are?
You are correct. I agree. I would be both crazy and hypocritical to say that in the middle of such a conversation. So you see earnest is lying.
I felt that I needed divine guidance to continue so I was confessing my human inadequacy. And I never said "i will pray for you". Not that I would not say so but the discussion had not reached that point. but I said I will pray for wisdom....
Go read my statement.
I honestly pray for my offenders all the time.... I helped her not kill herself today....so don't assume all are pious....
one of my offenders wanted to kill herself....some days I wonder why I want to come to work and then this comes along...and I aM reminded....
The venom of the religion forum is totally out of my comfort zone. What would Jesus do?
He used strong words when necessary but only to save. He was usually tender, merciful, kind.
He is my role model.
Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am"... Horus? Mr. Glendoncaba, I understand that you don't see how offensive all your comments are, it's fine you will probably never see it.
So I am just gonna pray to Horus that love finds you enough to open your mind and understand that your god doesn't push because he doesn't exist, but you push because you want it to be true and it isn't.
Gods were a metaphor to try to explain existence. The people who spoke about them and told the stories and understood something greater then themselves know very well the truth behind the god or gods.
I know it is troublesome for believers, mostly (and I don't mean this offensively but as an observation) Christians who believe that Jesus is God, have a very hard time distinguishing fact from fiction.
I know not all christians are stupid, some believe in what Christ was saying and understand the perplexed nature of god and all can but tell you what it is but rather use story to help people really grasp the concept of "invisible nature", life out of non life, conception from a barren womb, a beginning with no end etc...
Many, many atheist are well studied in religions, humanity, psychology, philosophy and do understand things.
So I can pray for you, that one day you will understand it. But this prayer is from me to you out of the genuine love I have for life and a suckerfool soft spot for Christian's because it squashes my heart all the time to know that your really don't understand and probably never will.
I get the point.
Thick with irony. I understand. I really do. Jenny helped me in enders thread.
And it would be touching if you could persuade me that you meant your part of it. But the rhetoric reminds me of Mark Antony's funeral oration. Cute.
Truth is the venom was here before I arrived. I seem to spend a lot of time trying to explain the position of Christians in an effort to reduce the misunderstanding. I am not sure I have been of much help. I dont enjoy cut and thrust of battle like enders.
I know that to state a faith position is offensive. But to do otherwise would be to deny Christ. Out of respect for others I choose how and where. And thats why I admit to my need for spiritual guidance when dealing with celebrated hubbers who see faith in itself as an insult, and the sharing of faith as a double insult.
As said by someone else this is an open forum.
I try to stay out of it, but I must speak or the stones will cry out.
I am convinced that souls (and friends) are not won by heated arguments, so I have no desire to engage in endless word fights.
Here is a challenge for you and the atheists:
Actions speak louder than words. I have written 25 hubs. Only 3 or 4 are explicitly on religion. I even wrote one on the game of dominos.
If we put aside the intolerance what that will tell you is that I am willing to love, understand, and embrace the common humanity of man, regardless of race, creed, education, class, etc.
I have obvious weaknesses eg. because I prefer to be a peacemaker i get annoyed whenever someone keeps posting cruel attacks when i am trying to be conciliatory.
As a professional communicator i see that the biggest problem is that we frame our messages with our value systems. The solution is to use value neutral messages but in the realm of Christian religion this is impossible because religious faith calls for total lifestyle.
I am open to suggestions. I want to build bridges.
Had to giggle Mark, I do talk to brick walls don't I?
Would you care to comment on Mark's reply? I see you have said nothing further since calling me a liar about it.
Mark makes a wrong assumption when he says my praying posits wisdom vs hate.
My praying was because of my lack of human wisdom hence the need to seek divine wisdom.
Again the language gets in the way and you guys see an insult when I mean to be nice. I try to be nice. I wish you would too.
That is the best question in my view. What would you suggest?
Posts are crossing so you are not seeing my responses.
I said you lied about me offering pious prayer for mark. Read the context and you will see that the prayer was for me to get wisdom to reach out to mark. I'm repeating myself.
We have passed that. You are willing to apologise so that makes us both human.
As for me I must preach Christ. This is an open forum.
glendoncaba, you go right ahead and do that, no problem from anyone here except when you anoint your fairy as my fairy we will get along fine, providing you apologize for calling me a liar, which I am not.
I apologise. I think it was a misunderstanding.
Wish i could delete those posts. I'll try.
And still you don't see it. You basically said You want to enlighten Mark with your wisdom of god because Mark is...in other words, stupid.
No I basically said I need wisdom in order to share my faith with Mark. There is nothing offensive about that in an open forum.
Please move on past these false assumptions that differing viewpoints mean one is thinking others are stupid. Please try to be nice as well. You read these assumptions into any statement but I lost a lot of sleep last night making peace. Please concede that a man who confesses lack of ability is the one who is confessing need for wisdom. Your attack is unnecessary and unfair and incorrect especially at this stage.
Remember the wise men from afar who came to Bethlehem when the church people did not know. Wisdom is not confined to the pews.
You keep attacking someone who starts out as willing to negotiate in the first place. I will negotiate everything except the right to preach Christ.
And I am willing to admit that I am wrong when I am wrong. I cant be wrong in seeking divine wisdom to drive, to write, to love, to preach, to plant, to work, to reap. You get it. I dont think the world is stupid. It is the habit of people of faith to pray before they undertake tasks. This is not patronising, this is not insulting, it's what people of faith do. We even say grace before we eat. Does that mean the food is stupid, or the cook is stupid. No. We are advised to pray without ceasing.
So when I say I will pray for wisdom I am saying as usual I feel incapable of undertaking a strong challenge without divine help. When I pray before a sermon I am not saying the congregation is stupid, I'm saying that I need divine grace and wisdom to speak the right words to heal and love Gods people.
Enough. I'm sorry to sound impatient but when I make such concessions for the sake of peace, you can at least try to understand that a preacher believes in prayer without assuming that others are stupid.
BTW I see the entire world as children of one Source (thats a very neutral word just for you since you are attacking so late in the game when we have gone past this) and should be loved and cherished.
Mark I have a personal challenge for you:
I need to make some real online income to justify these hours. You are a very wise and successful guru.
At some point you may want to do a critical analysis of my hubs and email me with some ideas. (In return I promise to pray for you, evangelise you until I baptise you, and make you into a solid missionary).
And I thought I had no sense of humour anymore. Sandra does a better job, dripping with irony and all.
Seriously, nearly every single bully that picked on me in school became my friend eventually. One guy even became my friend because I fought back.
I still admit that right now I need to meditate (a lighter word) on how to relate to my atheistic friends. The 30 day hub challenge begins tomorrow and i want to write 60 hubs or more so off to bed.
Well, implying that I am a bully is certainly not helping. Perhaps if you actually considered what you are saying before doing so?
It is easy enough - just hit "preview," take a look and see whether it is possible some one might consider the statement you just made to be implying they are a bully.
Read this hub for some advice on making money here:
http://hubpages.com/hub/Making-Money-On … t-hubpages
You can ignore the ebay advice as it looks like that program will not be an option soon. Which means I have wasted about 200 hours on those hubs I wrote to make money that way.
Read this way back. Became a fan because.
Will read again. Sorry about the ebay slap.
There is also an academic research site somewhere that pays good money but I think its unethical to write term papers for students. So for now I'm stuck with PPC sites.
Amazon turk is digital slavery yet I have been spending time there too. At least you see the dollars (more like cents) for each job.
I may have to do a new thread for this. Way off topic.
The "perfect way" is a joke glendoncaba, but can you see how similar what Mark is saying is to your own approach to this subject?
IMPORTANT NOTE TO FORUM READERS: I have gone back and edited out the words 'lie' and 'liar' from recent exchanges with earnest. Hence the discrepancy between the posts and the quotes.
My thanks for that, a gentlemanly thing to do.
Attack??? You have every right in the world to preach Christ. Mark and Earnest have every right int he world to do the opposite.
You believe the world belongs to Jesus and your doing his work because you believe that is what Jesus wants.
I get it, but I don't buy it.
Your stance on atheist is that we lack understanding, compassion, fairness and as some others believe, love.
How do you figure?
Ye old Bible says... Even the godless can love. Look it up.
Wrong again. My stance on the world theists and atheists, is that we are both capable of love and hate. All I want to do is love.
Like I said earlier the problem with the religion forum is intolerance on both sides.
And because the atheists are so used to some religious people insulting their philosophical foundations they assume evil motives to all theists.
Just look at sandra assuming that I think mark is stupid because I (the stupid one really) need to unburden my stupidity before God and seek divine wisdom in order to communicate my faith with someone.
I am willing to discuss. I am willing to understand. But dont tell me that I cant pray to God for wisdom in my own time in order to improve my communication in an open forum.
This is intolerance. This is presumptive. And will seek to undo the progress we made last night.
I understand that you guys are offended by any reference to deity, but please try to understand that we invoke our deity automatically as a part of who we are. We dont mean to insult you, and for my part I will seek to be more careful in how I phrase statements. Can you do the same?
Well I don't really understand why you got upset about a simple statement.
Tolerance? Who said you cannot pray for wisdom to share your faith gracefully?
You see, Glen. You prayed for wisdom to share your faith in a better way but most of the responses to your prayer are coming from the people you disagree with the most.
The great mystery of prayer is that you expect that your prayer only be answered by those coming from the same belief as yourself.
In which case, you have disregarding the wisdom you are seeking. Your prayers are being answered but you wont accept it.
Have a good laugh on me for the following.
I have spent the better part of a day defending my suggested plan to pray but up until now I still need to spend serious time on my knees about this issue. I've only said short whispers to God about it.
But you are right. Wisdom is coming from hubbers on how to communicate better. Answers come from many sources.
Sandra you are picking a fight with the wrong Christian. I'm a lover, not a warrior. I prefer to heal instead of hurt.
Like so many persons in this forum you wont even read my recent posts. Both sides are human. Both sides are intolerant. Let us begin the healing.
Pardon me, I am very tolerant. However it seems as though you would like to place us both in the same category as human when you recognize the "bad" behavior that is equally as prevalent to all people.
All is well in the just human category until it comes to beliefs in which case you have been pretty sufficient in concluding that you are right and others are wrong.
How so? Tell me why you are right and I am wrong.
Am I? What do you think?
So you don't believe you are right but preach as if you are? Unless your rhetorical statement was an issue to warrant righteousness?
Now please answer the question. I will restate it for you so it makes better sense.
Why do you believe you are right and I am wrong?
When I just came to this forum i would answer you with the usual Christian response about the need to preach the gospel to the world, and the wonderful content of the Christian gospel of salvation for sinners. Now I know that to begin there would only incense you so again I invite you to read this hub and we'll continue later:
Can we dialogue without using value laden terms like right wrong to start off. How about what answers are in your world view compared to the Seventh-day Adventist world view? Lets discuss the questions in the hub?
Of course I believe in the rightness of my cause but I'm no idiot. Why should i offend you before you even understand me. I have come a far way. I understand you.
Do you understand me? Read the hub. Please. And see you later. I promise you you will enjoy the exercise at the end.
Could we just for now discard the wrong/right dichotomy for a bit and explore the big picture. Please read my little hub and respond here, in hub comments or even privately. Oooops you look so good in that blue dress I trust the other guys dont get jealous at my request for private audience.
Told you i was bad.
You make wrong assumptions too quickly.
I know that sharp speech dominates the forum. Just like in the movies I guess conflict sells. But I prefer a quiet bible study to a hostile diatribe.
Here is a little offer to you.
I will do an online course on athiesm if you will do one of my online bible studies.
My birth numbers are 666, can you save me?
Blah... seriously, Im only bringing humor into the forum. My birth Numbers really are 666 though. HAH! I mean, Growl?
((munching on popcorn)) Carry on...
later guys. gotta work too.
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