Comparing Deism, Atheism and Theism

1. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   According to the dictionary, the term Deism was used during the intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries. Deism accepts "the existence of a creator on the basis of reason," but rejects the belief of a "supernatural deity who interacts with humankind."
   
   Q. Is the belief of God objectionable in the light of Deism to Atheists?
   Why?
   
   Q. Is Deism objectionable to Theists?
   Why?

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2. 61

   Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago

   #1. Yes, because atheists believe there are no gods of any kind, and deism says there are. Obviously objectionable.
   
   #2. Yes, because deism says the god(s) don't intervene while theists say they do. Obviously objectionable.
   
   That was easy.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Okay, then, can the belief in God be based on reason?  ( We really need some deists to explain deism, if there are any.)
      
      Maybe we are all fighting Theism which most of us, in all actuality, realize includes superstition and fantasy, (in this day and age).  Wouldn't most Christians admit they are really Deists?
      and NOT Theists?

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         kessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Even thing we believe, we believe for a reason.
         
         Since reasons differs from person to person, We argue and deny and sometime do not admit to the real reason for our beliefs... but that does not mean it is not there.
         
         But it is foolish for someone to think his belief does not have a reason.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, and with this brilliant observation I will let this thread and the previous one go. Thanks kess.
            I shall go and evolve, now.

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   wildernessposted 11 years ago

   #1 yes.  This is an oxymoron as reason cannot be the basis for a belief in any supernatural creature of any kind, let alone a god that created all. 
   
   #2 yes.  This concept negates the entire reason for religion in general (there is no longer a reason to modify behavior for religious reasons) and specifically organized religion and the billions of $$ it controls.  Quote objectionable.

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   1. 81

      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      What if Christians discovered Deism was a better alternative than Theism... wouldn't that be more agreeable to Atheists?  We also need some Christians to analyze Deism and tell us what they think. Wikipedia: "Deism is the belief  that reason and observation of the natural world are sufficient to determine the existence of God accompanied with the rejection of revelation and authority as a source of religious knowledge. Deism gained prominence in the 17th and 18th centuries during the age of enlightenment especially in Britain, France, Germany and the U.S. among Christians who believed in one god, but found fault with organized religion and did not believe in supernatural events, such as miracles, inerrancy of scriptures...."
      - just wondering.

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      1. 48

         Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Just to clarify I believe one can be a theist and a deist.
         I could just be my little naturalist self and conclude in God. That could stand alone for me. Easy.
         But I am also a Theist. I know Jesus Christ apart from nature and yet as a part of nature.
         These are more intertwined than seperated by a line drawn somehow. And the belong in the belief category not the scientifice category.

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         1. 81

            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            I agree, Eric. I wonder what atheists think of Buddhism.  But, I dare not go on in Forums after what gm posted in the other discussion I posted.  (sheesh!)
            
            (Dear Eric:
                 What do you think of Buddhism? (I do not care what any one else thinks of Buddhism, and the ability of one to be enlightened from within.) I shall not respond here, as I have officially signed out of the religious forums. Feel free to email me your answer.)

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            1. 48

               Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Kathryn, I will respond here in the context of this forum but shall also email you. Buddhism is a wonderful culture. I married a Buddhist. She and our son are now baptized Christian. I have been in many temples and had wonderful discourse with outstanding monks. Their basic tenants of loving all creatures and doing no harm and the Golden Rule are so simpatico with Christian that it is amazing. Christians differ with them on matters of afterlife but very little on matters of this life. So I have converted a few to Christianity. But to me the bottom line is a Buddhist is my neighbor and so I am commanded to love him. And to love him well I must understand him. Buddhists are definitely combo Deists and Theists and in a real sense many are also atheists.

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      2. 95

         wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         *shakes head in disbelief*
         
         As I read that quote it says to me:  "Looking around at nature and recognizing our ignorance of how it happened is sufficient reason to construct a make believe god and believe it is real.  Particularly if one does not require factual evidence."
         
         Of course, if Deism doesn't recognize that god cares or reacts with nature, why bother?  It becomes an intellectual exercise of no value - even if it's correct we can't use that "knowledge" to do anything.

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         A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Why exchange one fantasy for another, what's wrong with reality?

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   Emile Rposted 11 years ago

   Atheists and theists couldn't coexist harmoniously with deists anymore than they can with agnostics. Or pretty much anyone that doesn't agree with their conclusions. I think that is one of the results of coming to a firm conclusion on the matter. My take on deism is simply that reality is too complex to rule a creator out, yet reality shows no signs of an active role by a deity.  It's the flip side of agnosticism. Just as atheists and theists are tied together by the way their minds work.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Are you not an atheist any more in that case?

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         Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         You lost me with that one.

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            Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Are. You. No. Longer. An. Atheist.?

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               Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Have. I. Ever. Claimed. To. Be. An. Atheist?
               
               I'm pretty sure I'm agnostic. Unless you know something about me I don't know. Which I doubt.

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                  Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Um - go look those words up in a dictionary. You either believe in a god or you don't. Agnostic is not some sort of in between place.
                  
                  Theism - belief in a deity (or more).
                  Gnosticism - knowledge.
                  
                  So - have you stopped being an atheist?

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                     Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     You can't make claims as to what I am. That's what I do. If you are uncomfortable with the term agnostic I can't help you.

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                     1. 58

                        Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        Sorry you don't like the meanings of words. I don't make them up. Do you simply not understand the question? You either believe in a god or you don't. What you think you know has absolutely nothing to do with that.
                        
                        Do you believe in a god? It is a "yes" or "no" question. Does that make you uncomfortable? Because I thought you did not believe in any gods. Which makes you an atheist. Sorry about that - blame the theists.

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                           Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                           LOL. Thanks for proving part of the point in my initial post. Now, all I need is a theist to lambast me for not claiming to be a theist and it'll be a slam dunk.
                           
                           But, seriously. If it makes you comfortable to think I'm an atheist, think it. I don't really care what you call me.

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                              Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                              Ah - maybe I am starting to understand why you always seem to be trolling. You simply don't understand the meanings of the words you are using and then attack anyone who uses the word correctly. Odd that you think I am "lambasting," you for explaining the correct meaning of an English word.
                              
                              I suggest the Oxford English dictionary as a good place to start learning the meanings. Then - when you understand what they mean - you will perhaps stop attacking me for using them correctly.

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                                 Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                 Please point out the attack, or stop lying. If you don't understand the meaning of words it isn't my fault.

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                                    Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                                    Dear me.

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      While that is true that reality shows no signs of deities, it would make more sense that simplicity, not complexity might not rule out a creator. Complexity is what actually makes nature more plausible to have come about on it's own rather than having been created by a deity.

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   3. 48

      Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      If empirical reality were the basis for theism and deism then they would not be.

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5. 0

   mbuggiehposted 11 years ago

   I have a news flash: At the end of the day NONE of us knows anything with complete certainty.
   
   That said, it would be nice if somehow some intelligent and informed conversation could happen on Hubpages without the relentless bullying; without the relentless name-calling; without the relentless demeaning of any idea with which one does not agree; without the relentless and utterly misguided sense that one's ideas and one's definitions are right and that ANY and ALL variations from these idea and definitions are wrong.
   
   It is unfortunate that someone asks a rhetorical question that should generate an equally rhetorical responses and the most common response is, essentially: "You're wrong. I'm right. I know everything. If you don't agree with me you're stupid. You don't understand anything. You can't read. You can't think."

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      Mark Knowlesposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Religious beliefs do tend to bring that out, don't they?

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         mbuggiehposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         No actually, I do not think that it is religion that does this to people.
         
         I think it is an essential mean-spirited arrogance coupled with a desire to humiliate and hurt others as part of a larger effort to assert one's self.
         
         In other words, this is the stuff of the psyche and the mechanisms of the classic bully.

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6. 61

   Cgenaeaposted 11 years ago

   It seems to me from the description of Deism, that it was invented to answer the "program" of faith within;  without attributing it to the "programmer." I agree with a previous post stating belief in God or no are the only options. Faith is also built in as we have no idea about anything without it. Babies have no capacity for ideas about gravity.  But they fall often. They have faith that if they crawl to the edge of the bed they fall.  Some of us cannot explain the fullness of why we believe because all answers cannot be proven one way or another.  Faith is needed. For ALL historical accounts.

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      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      No, babies don't really have faith they will fall.
      
      What they DO have is past experience; anything (including them) that is unsupported has always fallen in their limited history.  This brings fear that it will happen again; don't go near the edge as experience has taught I will fall.
      
      Not the same as believing in God at all as no person has ever had experience outside of their own imagination; imagination that is far different than a thump on the head as baby hits the ground.

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         Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         You are right. Maybe that was a bad example.  But imagination did not speak words that I heard on the inside of me as a child and then had repeated back to me from various sources throughout the course of my life. Would atheists call it proof of God because I consider that my proof?  I believe most likely it would be construed as coincidence but that is the difference between spiritual and non...

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            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            No, atheists are unlikely to call voices from inside your body proof of God.  And neither should you - as there is no physical mechanism inside you to produce the sounds we call language it is sure to have come from inside your mind as opposed to inside the physical body.  Imagination, in other words.

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               Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               But repeated back to me from various people throughout the course of my life?

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                  wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm visualizing you as a impressionable girl of 4 or 5, hearing "voices" coming from behind your belly button.  A dream perhaps, or a day dream.  A particular imaginative play period, no different at the root that an "imaginary friend" many children have.  A girl that was scared and fascinated all at once, that was impressed enough to never forget those voices.
                  
                  Then as an teen or adult, years and years later.  Those memories have faded and twisted although the fascination remains.  Very few people remember things that happened years prior accurately, and certainly not when filtered through the scared, emotion filled brain of a young child.  Any words even remotely similar will be instantly latched onto as an identical reproduction of the imagined experience from years ago.

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                     Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     The difference between spiritual and non...

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7. 61

   Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

   A lady told me two years ago that it was almost time (for that word to come into fruition) I did not know her personally.  She just said it as I was working.
   I believe because I must. God is 100%. And I believe the bible to be ssent as written instruction for his own.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Cgenaea. You have been encouraging to me. I am glad you are persistent. I originally thought you just wanted to fight. But I see now that you are truly sticking up for God and the reality of God. I agree that if you feel God speaking, or sending pure love, then it is real and it is real. I often hear his advice and council and feel his love.  We do have to fight against the delusion which comes from doubt. Here in the public forum arena it is rather brutal, however.

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         Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Kathryn,  we can expect nothing less than brutality. Remember how these "very same " people beat my Lord to death for telling them the truth?
         Just want to argue?  Nope not me. Peace is my motto but some things require a firm stance.

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            Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            The shrinks are all done testing and no I am not crazy in regards to my faith and belief in God. (in otherways still crazy). God is real and good and loves us much. How do I know. Well, because He tells me so. That is just a truth. I cannot say why He does not talk to atheists, but when He does it doesn't not matter because they are not atheists anymore. Some would say that an atheist is just somebody God has not spoken to yet.
            I believe and while I try not to be proud of that, neither am I ever ashamed.
            Well done here Cgenaea.

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               Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Lol... I'm crazy too Eric But not in this light. This one thing I do know... I'm glad you know too.

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               A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               No Eric, that is not a truth, that is an obvious fabrication. Gods do not talk to you, those are just voices in your head if you are indeed hearing voices talking to you. I don't accept your claim that the shrinks are all done, if that is the case.

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            A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Notice how the believer resorts to invoking the myth in order to fight others as if they have been given full justification for causing conflict. They could care less about others and their actions towards them.

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8. 81

   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   ...we are all crazy in different ways. Why not be crazy in trusting God, feeling God, being devoted the Reality that He is? Thanks Cgenaea and Ericdierker. Arrogance is not a danger when love and appreciation overflow as one, as we are led the way we are to go (willingly, through our own inspiration) by Jesus and the principles of Christ. and I agree, Eric...eventually God will speak to an atheist!  It is just a matter of time.
        But, we have work to do...on ourselves: "The harvest is abundant, but the laborers are few." I think that phrase of Jesus' refers to the inner work that is needed in order to reach the kingdom of heaven which is found within.
   All of this... The Way I See It.

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      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      In reality,  God speaks to every man. Most do not listen. Or they attribute the voice to mental incapacity. Right? The voice of God has spoken through you. The voice of God has spoken through me. The voice of God spoke through Jesus.  All who have an ear (by faith) will listen. Problem is that faith is placed in the self's ability to reason.  It is not realistically reasoned that reason can only go so far.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I concur!

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         wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Given that God does not speak with sound waves, how can I determine what He tells me?  I have never heard, felt, smelled or seen anything I can positively attribute to God, let alone speech of some kind.
         
         If He is speaking to me, He needs to make that "speech" far more obvious as I can't "hear" him.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Dear wilderness.
            Hey, I was so happy to come across that forum thread I posted of yours from 12 months ago!  (How do you know that God did not lead me right to it?)
            Random questions:  Do thoughts and feelings come in sound waves? Does awareness? And what increases one's awareness? Yes, the brain is involved, but the mind is different form the brain. What is operating the mind?
            
            ...actually calmness is the best state of mind to perceive God.
            less wave lengths the better.

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               wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I don't know that He did not lead you.  If you think He did, what indications are you using?
               
               Thoughts and feelings do not come in sound waves.  Is that how God speaks - to manipulate my thoughts or make me have feelings I would not otherwise have?  If so, how do I tell when He sticks the thought or feeling in there and when I do it unaided?  What is the difference?

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Okay, these are very interesting questions. Let's see what I can come up with... God might have to help me out here. Hmmm... channeling God... hmmmm...  Notice my receptive mode?  Hmmmmmm  God says,
                  "You have your will/life to guide at all times."  I felt that answer very strongly. My understanding is, when one needs assistance from God, He is more than happy to help. This is strong... not my thoughts:  "My respect of your freedom to guide your own life and will is 100%."  And I keep getting this..."I Love You!" (addressing all of us / humanity as a whole.)
                  
                  In locating your forum post I came across it by scrolling through while looking for one of my old posts about PPACA, (to post my comment). When I found yours I was amazed. I have actually gotten many (timely) answers through the internet regarding questions or concerns I was mulling over. Maybe it is luck of the draw... But, it always SEEMS so magical when it happens
                  
                  My indication of it coming from God is when I could not have come up with the answer (to a question posed to God) by myself. It really seems to be thoughts that I receive. Receiving a thought that is not your own is similar to feeling love coming from someone who loves you.
                  TWISI

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                     Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     I just said that... Answers come through faith. Faith in him pleases each the father and "son". (You; me; Jesus) he is not absent from his own.

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                     wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     You say these things, that you "feel" God, that it "feels" strongly, but have ignored the question of how to tell it is from God and not yourself.  Do you pick which thoughts are God's, perhaps based on them being good?  Or being "right", just like your own moral conscience guides you? 
                     
                     How do you tell when it is God and when it is you?  Things may very well SEEM magical, but does that mean they are?  Or are they just coincidence or just your own thoughts/feelings?  How can you tell?

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                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  For me, the voice of God agrees with what is written.  He also sends other confirmations. As I told you. My inner word with other people repeating that same word at least 5 times throughout my life. The last woman who did not know me at all told me that it was almost time... I am not crazy.  I do not brag about me. I am not important. But as you are aware;  I aint no dummy. I believe what I say because of my faith. It is confirmed on a regular basis.
                  Also, I have been in situations that had me ponder a "word" and soon, I hear my answer from random sources.  EVEN ON TV! sorry... I am really excited about my faith.  Do you have faith in something?  Sure you do.

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                     wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     No faith in the sense you use the word.  I make conscious effort NOT to believe without evidence and/or confirmation, whereas you make conscious effort to believe (God speaks, hear the word, "confirmations" that are merely coincidence, etc.) because belief in such things as those reaffirms faith.
                     
                     Same question as to Kat; how do you determine what comes from God and what comes from either you or the world around you?  What is the determining factor - how do you differentiate the two?

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                        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        I must admit that it is not easy. Since patience is so important,  sometimes you must wait. A relationship with him by faith sends confirmation. Biblically,  " Lean not unto your own understanding..." he directs. Some waited for him for many years. But faith makes one comfortable. 
                        Tell me what you believe about the beginning, and I will tell you where your faith lies.

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                           wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           The beginning of the universe, you mean?
                           
                           Current thought is that a singularity (whatever that is) blew up, producing all the mass, energy and natural laws we see today.  It might even be true; certainly evidence points to that and certainly there is some truth to it.
                           
                           Not being a cosmologist, and the question not being of particular importance to me, I am content to accept the word of those that have studied the problem in depth, using the scientific method to draw conclusions.  That doesn't mean it's true, it doesn't mean I "believe" it to be true; it simply means it's the best answer I or anyone else has at this point.  Time will change it as we can all be virtually certain the human race does not have the full truth of the matter.
                           
                           I should also point out that you still have not said how you tell the difference between God speaking and your own internal "voice" or the "voice" of the world around you.

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                              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Oh! You have faith in Science.  I should have known. Tell me, why do you believe that whatchamacallit  knew what he was doing? Why do you trust his formulas? How do you know he read/interpreted his data correctly? Why is it so easy to believe that explosion occurred? What is their formula? And how did they ENSURE its accuracy?  What instruments were used? If you cannot answer EACH question;  we are working with blind faith.  You know that right?
                              Btw, I believe that there was a huge explosion because God said, "let there be light."

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                                 wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 You did not read my post very carefully, did you?
                                 
                                 But if you believe there was huge explosion because God spoke, you don't believe the bible - the book you have stated is God speaking.

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                                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    Expound,  please.

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                                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    How so?

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                                 A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 No, we do not have faith in science, it doesn't work that way. We have understanding of the world around us based on facts and evidence, not belief in myths and superstitions, which is what you have.

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     - answers from random sources...I have experienced that too... but not from TV...ever.  lol

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                        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        It tickles me pink (and for me... well you know... lol) TV! I'm serious. It is ALWAYS so plain. And seemingly verbatim.

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               Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I concur (2 )

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            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Well he definitely hears you. The ability to hear the father comes from faith. It is similar to WHATEVER else you believe. When you read books, you hear voices. Sometimes it's Aristotle, or Martin Luther King, or Dr. Phil's. Those voices are often manufactured (as in Ari... cuz we don't know his voice; but we make one up) my point is, we listen to that voice,  or we reject. 
            For me, the bible has been the voice of God. NO! You cannot really date the bible. NO! You cannot tell how old the earth is. And NO! You cannot tell where the garden of eden/the tomb of Elisha or Moses is. UNLESS you have faith in the report.  But in those cases, you may only "think" you know. God has secrets known to NO man. Faith is key. So, whatever you believe about the world and its beginning is believed based SOLELY upon faith.  (Oops I did "it" again)

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               wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               "Well he definitely hears you" - how do you know that?  Because you feel it is so?  Because you want it to be so?  How do you know He hears you?
               
               "as in Ari... cuz we don't know his voice; but we make one up"  That's kind of the point, isn't it?  You wish to hear the father so you make up the voice.  You determine the words, how they are delivered and what they mean, then attribute them to God.  You "make one up", just as you say.
               
               If the bible has been the voice of God, then he does not speak to you, except in the same words over and over - a broken record.  I doubt that, and I doubt you mean that.  You said it here, finally - faith is key.  With faith anything you want can be true, without faith it takes hard, solid evidence and proof - evidence and proof that neither you, the atheist or anyone else can every provide. 
               
               So catch-22.  God speaks ONLY to those with faith (in spite of your claim to the contrary) but without hearing Him, faith is unlikely to come.  You fail to understand (or accept) this, but it is very true.  God does not speak to every man (He does not speak to me); he speaks ONLY to those that will make up a voice and believe it to be God.  Faith.

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                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  but without hearing Him, faith is unlikely to come. 
                  Not really.  God speaks to us all... only the faithful hear. Sorry for the misunderstanding. It is something that you can wrestle with. Like Jacob.   Hearing God depends upon faith. He speaks all the time.

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                     wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     "Hearing God depends upon faith"  - my point exactly.  Now add that without hearing him in person, faith is very unlikely to ever come.  One does not simply decide one day to believe, to have faith that an undetectable, supernatural creature from another universe exists and is talking to us.  We could all say the words, but actual faith that He is there is quite another matter.  This is a point that the faithful have difficulty with, in my experience.  It is simply beyond belief that anyone can't believe - even understanding they could never voluntarily END their own belief they still don't quite get it.
                     
                     So the faithless are (nearly) doomed to remain faithless (and according to some burn for eternity) because they have never heard His word.  God chooses not to speak in any manner they can hear.
                     
                     Seems a trifle unfair; either be born with faith, have it pounded into young, impressionable brains or do without.  He will not speak to most of us, at least not in any manner we can detect or "hear".

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        This post is very sad for me to read.  How is it I can detect, but others cannot. Some might say I merely imagine. But I know it is not my imagination. But, then I am in the habit of sensing, of wanting answers, of being open to answers, to thoughts coming from ... Universal Spirit... who prompts my thoughts. God will "prompt" in any language.. how does He do that? How indeed?
                        BTW God is just not an undetectable supernatural creature from another universe! If I do not believe that, am I still an atheist?

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                           Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Ok Kathryn,  I think it is faith again. One must believe first. You cannot say, "God, I know you're not there; but show me your ways. " it goes more like, "God, please show yourself to me."  Faith that he is. First! Then faith to ask.
                           If you see it another way, let me know.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              no that is it.
                              
                              My point here was that I do not believe in an "undetectable supernatural creature from another universe." Who does? If that 's what makes a theist.
                              I 'm not one.

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                                 wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 The term is not meant to be offensive; if it is, sorry.
                                 
                                 The problem is that few will argue that God is detectable by humans, is not supernatural or originated in this universe.  They won't every truly argue that He is a "creature" - a living intelligent entity.
                                 
                                 Any other definition I can think of will be opposed by someone, somewhere.  So I use that one - is it wrong somehow?  Why don't you believe it?

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    I understand it like this: The yogis consider the force of God to be omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent.  Can we wrap our heads around that? No. It is really hard at this point to comprehend God as omnipresent spirit because we are identified with our individuality and our illusions of ego and body awareness.
                                         But, pretend for a minute that at one point you yourself were just formless spirit. You came up with everything that exists and then you decided to become whoever you are now. Well, at some point you might want to stop being the little person you have become so many lifetimes ago, and you just want to go "home" to the causal formlessness that you originally were. To get back to the causal aspect of your self, you must start down the path toward becoming one with spirit. You are a drop in the ocean. So, you need to reunite with the ocean. But you must   w a n t   to be back in the ocean. However, to get back to the ocean of spirt you need someone who has gone home and knows the way to go. In our time that person is Jesus. In the distant past it was Krishna. Both of these avatars' teachings have been misunderstood and dogmas created and manufactured. But the truth is the wisdom of these teachers will lead us back to our true home in spirit, if the teachings are properly understood and applied...
                                    Someday what I am saying will be common knowledge. We are presently at the lower end of the higher ages. We will all be on the same page in the future.
                                    According to My Sources.

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                              wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              But...while I or any other atheist can certainly say the words, it is not possible to produce the honest thought behind those words.  Will God accept the lie that we believe and have faith and thus be willing to speak to us?  It doesn't seem so...

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                                 Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 No. You need sincerity. If you do not believe,  no amount of thpught will force it. You must decide that you will believe.  Or skip it.

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                                    Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    Some come by it without choice. Old Abraham comes to mind. And my wife who did not come, but He came to her. We are careful not to place rules on how God works His miracles of faith. If it is "just us" seeking because we sincerely want to believe -- well who would deny us? We remember the unlikely -- Saul/Paul is right there. Not looking but chosen.

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       Exactly, and that is what it all boils down to, what you want to believe, as opposed to what is actually real.

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                                       Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       Paul/Saul still could have come to the conclusion that he still would not believe even after the "incident"
                                       The decision is ours. God does not take that from us. Even Jesus (sent to die) could have changed his mind. He could have chosen to worship Satan. Or jump down. Or turn those stones to bread. 
                                       Remember? ?? He "chose" the Jews. But they chose a different way.  He then offered himself to the Gentile. He did not force compliance from his chosen ones. Their decisions brought about death in the wilderness though. Their children received their promise. They DECIDED.  He allowed it.

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                                       Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       I disagree. Free choice and free will is a truth of generalism. Some of us Christians do not buy that dogma applying to all the people all the time. Some are in fact given no choice like Paul.
                                       Show me in the bible where it says we have free will. It merely tells us the choice is ours as a general notion not as a restriction on God. God can and does take that away at times.

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                                          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          Again, he chose the Jews. He rescued them via a split in the ocean. He covered them with "a cloud" he rained bread each morning. Still they chose the golden calf. He did not keep them from their decision.  He allowed them to choose.  Abraham was allowed to choose.  Remember?  His promised son tied up on a mountain?  His alternative?  His ability to impregnate the servant only to have to send her and her baby away. Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. His FAITH was counted as righteousness. He believed God. His faith was even tested. The bible says, "choose ye this day whom you will serve". Yes, choose.

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                                    wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    While some can honestly believe whatever they wish, I am not one of them.  It takes a lot more than mere desire to honestly believe in something, and I do not think that I am either alone or even rare in this.  This is what I said earlier; that many Christians have a really hard time understanding and accepting that.

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                                       Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       As well, many Atheists find it hard to understand that it takes faith to believe that he is; and is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY seek him (scripture). Even faith is tested.  You must show that you believe him. If you ask amiss; how can you expect to receive anything of him? (Scripture)

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          And yet, that is exactly what we understand, faith is all you have with no understanding whatsoever.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          And, almost always fails miserably in light of reality.

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                                          wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          I'm sorry but you are talking in circles; circles that lead back to "Have faith or He doesn't want you".
                                          
                                          Without faith of His existence can you OR that "imaginary creature from Christianity" possible expect anyone to seek DILIGENTLY?  If that is indeed the test - to search diligently for something known to not exist at all then God has indeed set up a test that most of mankind cannot pass and He has done it intentionally and with malice as He is the one that designed Man in such a way as to require evidence before belief.
                                          
                                          Listen to your own words: "You must show that you believe him" [in order to believe him].  An absolutely impossibility for someone without belief, just as maintaining a diligent search for something known to be myth is.  For the believer, simplicity in itself; for the non-believer an impossibility and all the rationalizations that God would not do that to people won't change it.

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                           wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           The question is not how He implants His messages, or even how you detect them.  The question is how do you determine that a specific message is from God rather than your own mind or the world around you.
                           
                           It doesn't matter how He gives a message, it doesn't matter whether you hear, see, smell it or just "feel" it with emotions.  What matters is how you know it is from God.

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                              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Do you really want to know? Or are you looking for a way to argue?

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                                 wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 I am always interested in how others think; what process they go through mentally to find truth.
                                 
                                 This question seems quite important, at least to me, and is thus interesting.  I could even give rise to some method I can use myself to hear God and come to believe, and that would not be important but momentous beyond anything else in life. 
                                 
                                 So I'm not particularly interested in arguing.  I seldom am, although I HAVE been known to point out faulty logic or reasoning.  In view of your question, I won't even "argue" your answer should it turn out to be something like "I just know" or "I feel it".

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                                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    I did tell you before how I know it is God speaking.  Have you also deleted my response in search of your "box" you wish me to jump into? Patience is also key. He sends confirmation. As he did for Jonah. OAnd Pharoh. And Paul. He did it for me.

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                                       A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       Sorry, but God is not speaking to you, those are just voices in your head, you should probably seek professional help for that problem. It could prove to be dangerous to others or yourself.

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                                       wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       That is no answer and you know it.  "He sends confirmation" simply begs the question and turns it from knowing when He speaks to knowing when He sends confirmation. 
                                       
                                       I understand you think that hearing a particular word throughout your life is a message from god; if that is how you know it to be so - that you decide when to assign the author as God and when not to - then say so.  Don't just say that He will tell you when He speaks.

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                                          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          There are other ways that you know, but you have already said you don't want to hear about those.   Faith

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                                             wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                             I assume you refer to "I just know" and "I feel it".  You're right - there is no need to repeat such things any more.  I promised I would not deride such non-answers, but I'm sure you can understand just why no one using reason to find truth would ever be interested in them.  They are fine for the theist wishing to reinforce their existing faith, but absolutely useless for anyone without such faith already ingrained.

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                                                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                                Thanks,  I agree.

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                                                   wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                                     All is good.

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                           A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Because, you are not detecting, no one can "detect" things through intuition.
                           
                           
                           
                           Actually, it's called 'delusion'.
                           
                           
                           
                           You are in the habit of wanting to believe in things, it's called 'confirmation bias'.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   My indication of it not coming from me or the world around me (through the five senses) is that after I have posed a question to God, I get an answer that I could not have come up with myself. It comes to me. It actually takes discernment and honesty to determine if its coming from God or myself. Some say if the answer comes from the left side, (in your mind,) it is Yourself. From the right side, from God. 
        For instance: I didn't want to get an MRI. I was afraid of the effects it might have on my brain. I was advised to get it to see my neck vertebrae after a fall. (It would still shoot magnetic resonance vibes all around my brain...) So, I had to confer with God. The left side of me said NO, don't get near an MRI. The right side answer was, "You need to utilize technology for your own peace of mind."
   So, what I discovered from the MRI was indeed valuable even though the experience was hard on me. (I became panicky. Strangely enough, as I became panicky, a song formed in my mind and helped me maintain my adrenaline level. The song was a song from church and seemed to lead me through that horrible experience.)
        Receiving a thought is like receiving love. It is felt. It is recognized. It is perceived within. it is subtle. It is detectable by the awareness of the consciousness. It is as subtle and yet as powerful as a the whiskers on a coyote, the antennae of a lobster, the nerve endings of the fingers of a chimp or human, the sound receptors of an African Grey Parrot, the ears of cats and dogs.  But, one needs to tune in to the inner receptor.
   TWISI

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      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      That receptor is faith. Faith receives. I hope he answers my question about what he believes/ has received.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         I think the receptor was built within us by nature. It exists between the eyebrows. My understanding is that It is actually a sensor within the human brain. It is really is another sense receptor: the sense of intuition. Faith comes from knowing. Knowing comes from experiencing or sensing the truth. Not arguing.   
         TWISI

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            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You and I have a certain rapport.  Peace... I am NOT sensitive.
            I can understand where you are coming from. The receptor is brain built-in. However,  the true receiver is faith. TWISI. without faith,  the mind/spirit rejects all input.  Something else controls the brain... the will...
            That is spiritual in nature and many do not perceive it. They think the brain is responsible. Now you may be speaking in terms of some other awareness; but for me, it is called faith. Faith that a child has in his parents.  Please, go on if I am in err. The spirit agrees with spirit. And I believe we may come to a mutual understanding. We are spiritual.
            Let's show 'em how it's done.
            Beginners don't "know" how may they come by faith in God?

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               - yes, I see what you mean ... it is an openness, an acceptance... right? It is in being willing to receive the answer from the Source. (Some receive answers from that other source. Their willingness goes in that direction,unfortunately...)
                    Our willingness is in alignment with God and everything that He is: love, wisdom, calmness and peace.
               What gets me about all these religious discussions is that so many want to see the bad side of God. Why focus on the bad when the good outweighs? The bad or negative, like cruelty to slaves being tolerated, etc. was what was happening at the time. Even in these instances, God seemed to play it by ear, in cooperating with most of man's free will. He puts his foot down in certain instances and not in others.
               Were you ever a non-believer? What gives you such faith?

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                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Don't hurt me! I feel tears... thanks

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                     Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     okay.

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                        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Lol!!!!!!!!
                        Don't hurt me, is probably an ethnic sarcasm that you probably would not "get" off hand anyway. Sorry for the  worry. (Got a little TOO familiar) lol
                        Tears because it felt soooo good to agree so wholeheartedly. I like your spirit.  It so agrees.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  The "bad side of God" makes itself known to us in Scriptures. He behaves exactly like a psychotic despot, which is why He is rejected.

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               A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               No, you are not special and have no magical powers that others lack. You are the same as everyone else. except you've been indoctrinated heavily into a religion.

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            A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, but no such receptors exist in the brain, that is just pure nonsense.

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               Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Correction ATM. Not in your brain. Science does not know what is in my brain. They still have not figured how to read thoughts. And yes, in that they guide us through all life, even yours, thought is real just not touchable like you like.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  But, you are completely scientifically illiterate and have no clue what science says about the brain. You are just making up nonsense to defend your misinformed opinions.

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                     Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     God bless you ATM and all of your good friends and family. Sending much love and wishing happiness for you and yours. You are in my prayers and thoughts. May the veil of anger be lifted and replaced with one of love and compassion. May your walk be less troubled and may you become a blessing to all who walk near to you.
                     May you come to love yourself so that you may experience the joy of loving others --- all this I pray for you.

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                        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        We touch and agree.

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                        A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't want your feigned love and your silly prayers. That only serves to insult.
                        
                        
                        
                        Compassion is something you have been depleted of in your life as can be seen by your posts here. People with compassion do not evangelize.
                        
                        
                        
                        I don't offer blessings nor would I want them, that is also insulting. You are the one who creates trouble with evangelism, so your words are empty and meaningless to others whom you patronized and condescend with your phony platitudes.
                        
                        
                        
                        I don't need to come to love myself, you need to stop evangelizing and have some respect for others and their wants and needs as opposed to what you believe they need.
                        
                        Your prayers are nothing but insults and only serve to show how meaningless your words.

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                           Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           That is very good of you ATM to express your angers and frustrations. I think it is a beginning of health. It is good you have a safe forum here to vent and attack others and still feel OK.
                           Just as any of us your views and feelings are welcomed by me. I learn much from you and your views. I very much appreciate you taking the time to enlighten me. Thanks.
                           And it is not about you that I pray it is about your soul.

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                              A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes, I understand you believe our criticisms of your faith is anger and frustration. You can stop being condescending any time now. Thanks.
                              
                              
                              
                              Please stop lying.
                              
                              
                              
                              But, it's obvious you learn very little if anything at all. That is the problem.
                              
                              
                              
                              Souls have never been shown to exist, hence your prayers are meaningless and only serve to insult.

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                                 Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 Surely you have purpose in my life ATM. God has placed you in it that I can learn more. I give thanks to him for putting you here. Very correct that I have not learned the whole of truths and I am somewhat at a loss as to what He is teaching me. But that is not mine to question, when it comes to you.
                                 
                                 So I thank you again for your views and persistence. I hope it is not too tortuous for you. But you remain and continue to respond so I must think that you understand your calling or at least will follow it. I am most intrigued that my prayers insult you. Perhaps I should learn to be so easily insulted. Maybe I am not sensitive enough for my own ego.

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                                    A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    Duh. Here's a hint, it isn't based on evangelizing.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    No, your God does nothing because He doesn't exist.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Please stop lying.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Your religion teaches good people to do bad things.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Yes, that is part of problem, you don't question it.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    This is how torturous it is --->
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    Sorry, but that would constitute thinking, that would be blind belief.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    That is because prayers are insulting.
                                    
                                    
                                    
                                    That is because God is you, He is your ego.

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                                       Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       Thank you ATM for further explanation. I do dare say your curtness leaves much to question. You are insulted by my praying for you. I am not sorry that is the case. It seems like it is your problem and not mine. I pray that this problem leaves you. I love you as a neighbor. I feel your pain and wish it were not there. But I am sure it is there for a reason. You remind me of possession where the devil just gets more anxious and upset when the priests pray for the possessed. Never seen it just read about it. Maybe this is what they mean. Have you ever looked into that?
                                       I am glad that you put up a happy laughing face. I always say "better to be laughed at than to see a man too sad".
                                       I may not be learning what you want but I am learning much.

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yes, I know you are not sorry to insult people and then shift the problem onto them as if they had anything to do with you insulting them.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Then, you are praying for religions to vanish, because that is the problem with much of the world.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          No, you don't.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Your imagination is running amok.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Yes, I understand you believe I'm evil and equivalent to the devil, that is why you evangelize hate from a hate cult.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          Yes, it is the height of ignorance and stupidity.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          That is highly doubtful.

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                                       Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       This is a wonderful forum that asked us to compare. I can not boast to act like a good theist. But I try. And I think that you have written as you believe a good atheist would. I am certain that any person reading our "conversation" will have ample ability to truly compare. Perhaps many will see the comparison and race to become good atheists. And your evangelizing will bear fruit. But at least they can now see a good comparison.

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                                          A Troubled Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          Yet, another Christian who has yet to dust off a dictionary to see what words actually mean.
                                          
                                          No wonder the apostles were constantly confused, Jeebus dun lost his dictionary.
                                          
                                          Maybe He was home schooled, too.

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    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    To your post edit Kathryn:
    My faith is from "indoctrination" as ATM taught me not so long ago. Lol
    I was born to two generations of in-house "holy-rollers" lol
    My love for the words of God were cultivated on the front pew. however,  as I studied what I believe to be God's word (the bible); I found many contridictions and half-truths that had been "preached" from the pulpit. It was disheartening, hut I found a second wind. I began to study; with spirit to guide me. I found pleasure.  I found peace.  The killings in the OT were hard. But I came to understand. I have been sold.  Not from childhood; but since I came to myself and sought truth. It is love, light, peace.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Your connection to your inner self makes all the difference.

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    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    I hope you read the previous post. You misunderstood. My fault.  We are kin.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       - it is nice to have an ally. 

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          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Glad you stayed. I go a little worried.  I have a great deal of respect for your "light". Thanks.  You "labored" with me all day.
          Have a wonderfully peaceful night.

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    Ericdierkerposted 10 years ago

    Kathryn you did a great job on this forum. Well done and a great opener for better understanding.
    
    I think it is good that you couched your proposition/question in the tone of "what is objectionable".  That seems to further discussion.
    I have been observing what some call bullying in the religiosity forums and find a very good consistency. We look for the reasons for seemingly personal attacks looking more often for solutions than what we can learn from them. And I have found very good news. People here take it personal!! Just think about that. That is marvelous. It is awesome on two fronts. The first is clear -- it is important to people, they really care. And that is cool.
    The second is more intangible but should bring us good cheer. The main reason that I see about the personal is that people here are speaking of their own personal beliefs and thoughts and conclusions and way of life. Which means they are not spewing forth dogma and rules and ways of thought crammed into them from a pulpit of a church or a lectern from a science lecture. These are personal views that we see here. Personal spiritual journeys reflected upon and conclusions built from empirical inquiry and personal conclusions. And for the most part these are guided by principles not wholly universal but good enough to be guideposts and worthy restrictions on how we go about our growth.
    So what you have produced here is a comparison, a true comparison. Not of lengthy treatises of the three notions but of heartfelt personal analysis of what they mean to "us". That "to us" or "to me" makes us legitimate in sincerity and thought. It makes us more than theory and more than blind faith. While it creates a true congregation of those sharing their inside thoughts it does not create a herd mentality.
    I am afraid that the "isms" and "ians" and "itys' are suffixes that find no rest here. They are merely faint notions as if shrouded by fog. They are at best skeletons that we personally put flesh on with no great consensus or following by any of the ones here that think.
    There is no tidy bow to tie around a conclusion. That is good. For I hope all are on a journey with no end in sight. Though we do see some that have finished their inquiry and are now standing and espousing from their own prison of thought. And also true are those few who come around spewing dogma and preordained thought, a prison also.
    As for us with faith in Christ, it is not faith in a church. It is not cluttered with restriction. It is just a faith in Christ. Unadulterated by rules or dogma. As for those with truly no belief it is pure and based on inquiry and satisfaction to a personal degree. Those in between are perhaps smarter than those who are on a black and white slate.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       Dear Eric,
       Thank you. There is, " I hope I will have a good life,"  or " I wish I will have a good life," and there is "I WILL have a good life." It is up to us. We must focus inward. Thats where heaven is, no matter what anyone else says... and we know that.

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          Ericdierkerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Kathryn,
          Many Christians would have a knee jerk reaction to this and so NO! A good life is found in God. But if they reflect long and hard and pray on your statement they will see it's truth. Happiness is an inside job. While we are in this world we are not to be of this world. So where do we go to be not of? Understanding and love are within us. Not out there someplace. God is not a building or a job or a car. God is inside of us for He is omnipresent. If we look for good, we can raise our hands and eyes or we can bow and kneel down, but we need not for He is in us and all we need to do is look for that love. Not our there but in here.

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             Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             What you have confirmed here is what exactly what Jesus taught.

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