Is the capacity to reason only found in Atheists?
"God said it, therefore, I believe it." This is the mantra of the deity believer, whether one believes that an omnipotent turtle carries the earth on it's back or
a god who would create an inferior life form for the purposes of testing. One god wants his followers to cut off peoples heads and the other was content just to burn them alive. At what point does the human being accept the fact that gods equal bias, prejudice and hatred?
cj.... Do you mean people like Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Benito Mussolini, Jim Jones, Jeffrey Dahmer, Kim Jong Il, Than Shwe, Napoleon Bonaparte, and Alfred Kinsey?
JT - any1 with access to Google knows Jim Jones was religious, Jeffery Dahmer had a personality disorder. Not sure the point of the list
Being an atheist doesn't make 1 evil, 1's actions do. Atheists + religious alikehas their fair share of evil
Correlation does not equal causation.
We could avoid a lot of stupid claims if people just understood that simple fact.
I was simply proving the fact that there are bad people in all walks of life. It just so happens that these men I listed happen be to infamous atheists. It is simply ignorant to say that only atheists have the ability to reason.
Then a bit of research wouldn't have gone astray - jim wasn't an atheist. Merely copying a list is also ignorant.
But I agree - lumping everyone of a faith or lack thereof into groups isn't a good idea.
jl.... Just like you have said.. just google Jim Jones and you will find out you were wrong. .... http://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnAtheist … _atheists/
And grouping atheist as being the only one's who can
Actually I was just doing that (again) - jim was mad. I'm not sure what faith he was following - as were many of the others. But he was not necessarily atheist either. He stated it once. Madness is not atheist - it's illness. But my apologies anyway
You are welcome. However, madness is not an atheist thing - mad people are found everywhere - including religion. But in grouping people with the worst of their faith/lack of - I'm in agreeance with you - it doesn't work
jl-Do not all believers in supernatural deities accept such deities without rational evidence? That was the question and I saw no need to break it down to specific deities. There are Atheists and theists; how else to ask the question?
In any instance - generalising one group to the less intelligent of it's members helps no one. Just because one part of their being isn't reason bound doesn't mean all of the rest of then as a person isn't capable of it.
I was specific as to a deity belief and no mention of overall intelligence was stated or inferred. What part of my question was untrue?
None of it is untrue - Yes, some are incapable of reason, as are some non-believers - in relation to their faith. This does not mean they are incapable of reason whatsoever..which is how it sounds. I agree, Gods equal bias etc however.
No, the capacity for reason falls to the individual. A lot of theists are perfectly rational people and some atheists can be irrational. Again the extremes tend to represent each side, where as your average theist/atheist, when posed a moral question, would probably come up with similar answers.
I am talking about the ability to utilize the human talent of reason in the determination of the existence of supernatural deities.
Beautiful, MT. And some theists are working with a different data set of experience. The biggest barrier to learning anything new is ego -- self-concern -- the need to make self "right." Those who are humble are open to learn new things.
MT--I would hold that it is not rational to believe that a supernatural deity exists. If you hold that it is, please provide that reasoning. I believe light travels at 186,000 per sec, cannot see it, touch it or feel it, but I can provide the reason
CJ, would you like to provide the answers to where light travels from, where to, and why?
Zt--Light, as we see it, photons is created deep in the sun, once reaching the surface it travels 8.5 min to our eyes. For the last part-distance consult, photons and special relativity.
Well, I was speaking in a general sense (so-and-so is a reasonable person). But even belief in a deity comes from some sort rationale. One man's lucky statistic is another man's miracle.
MT--The gods were reasonable and a reasoned answer to what is, 70,000 years ago. To claim that such is still reasonable speaks only to a preferred status of a lack or refusal of knowledge.
But, one unreasonable belief does not mean that the person, as a whole, is incapable of reason.
MT--The initial question was very specific as to deity belief. My assertion does not blanket all exercises of the brain. One unreasonable belief can set the stage, not always, for other unreasonable pursuits or beliefs. Atheists are not all reasonabl
My mistake then, it seems I was misinterpreting the question.
No. Everyone has the capacity to reason even in the determination of the existence of the supernatural. Both sides has the capacity to study and scrutinize evidences presented by both atheists and theists. However, reason is clouded by close-mindedness most of the time. Open-mindedness is a vital trait necessary to be able to reason reasonably.
zx--Everyone has the talent to draw a picture, but not all are equal. Because one owns a piano, is he an accomplished pianist? The ability to reason is not equal or exercised equally. that is the point.
Good point. And just because one is an accomplished pianist doesn't mean that he is accomplished in all other disciplines.
Who then decides who's ability to reason is superior than the other?
Zx--The question is reference the ability to reason and the irrational belief in a deity. (2nd part) hopefully not those who would condemn others to hell or death for refusing the deity belief.
I'd be careful lumping all into a group.
Each group - religious or not - has their fair share of people who can't think or reason for themselves. Yet not all do.
Unfortunately online those who can't reason without their holy text are more prevalent - but that doesn't make the whole lot of the same group unable to reason.
Atheists have an issue when they get lumped together with other atheists who aren't so hot on knowledge and are more about being nasty - of which there are only a few - yet we all get lumped in there by those who feel slighted.
Why stoop to that level?
Thanks, Lone! As an agnostic atheist myself - i know there are some on both sides of the equation, in all walks of life...atheists, religious alike.
The premise here is the assertion of a god on the part of theists. Such a belief is without a reasoned foundation. Such belief is a leap of faith voiding out the ability to reason. That is the point.
Cj - I understand your premise, but also see that those of faith can see atheists as the same - it's a leap to believe He doesn't exist etc. I don't believe myself, but reasoning tells me my thoughts are not everyone's. Generalisation isn't helpful
jl--To understand that there is an absence of evidence to prove a god, is not a leap of faith. it is to say jl you must believe that I am a god, but I can't prove it. Is it a leap of faith for you to not believe me?
Like I said - I understand where you are coming from - I just find the generalising distasteful and not working with the intelligence I respect u for. Heck in some cases I agree with you, but in particular cases of those of faith but in no way all
CJ, I sometimes wonder about your ability to reason. I don't know what your IQ is. Mine is a rather paltry 139. All of my younger brothers have far higher IQs and they all are believers. They each have strengths of reason that I keep learning from.
Your question seems to imply you never studied history. A great many men of reason were theists and built the foundation of science -- Galileo, Sir Isaac Newton and hundreds of others.
You have rather limited views of Faith and define it in ways that suit your own biases. Because of this, you blind yourself from learning.
For instance, you say that "gods equal bias, prejudice and hatred." You will never see the Truth that God is Love. You have a barrier that clogs and disrupts your ability to reason. That bias is enforced by ego (self-concern).
I have used reason all my life in science, business, engineering and life in general.
If you had the reason of Einstein, you'd know that imagination is superior to knowledge. You seem deficient in imagination, incapable of imagining how there is Truth behind the writings in the Bible and the concept that God is Love. A little creativity would give you the clue you need to resolve the apparent problems you talk about.
But ego is the great disruptor. Your own ego seems bent on convincing others of your viewpoint, rather than learning the viewpoints of others. You have already judged them. This is apparent from your final question, assuming that your precious viewpoint is "fact" and that all others are delusion. That's called arrogance. And you're welcome to it.
No. I think many theists choose to put reason on the back burner in favour of faith, though. Which is okay, if that's what they choose to do. I think that there are many people who are completely rational and logical outside of their faith, so that implies to me that they simply see it as a part of their lives where reason and logic aren't everything. They have the capacity, they just choose not make use of it in this particular instance. That's not to say that ALL theists have that capacity, but I don't think that atheists are the only ones who do.
You seem to just want to argue with anyone who doesn't feed you the "Oh, yeah, theists, they're all crazy," line. There are folks who ascribe to religions, or some might say beliefs, that don't even include a deity. How do you feel about that? And all in all, down the line... what does it really matter? How do theists affect you in such a way that you have found the best answer is to lump them in the "no capacity for reason," camp? Trust me, I've met plenty of atheists who have sub par reasoning skills, too. As M.T. said, the capacity for reason falls to the individual. Sure, no one likes being told they're wrong, especially if the reasoning behind it is someone saying "God says so.," but I wouldn't hold *all* theists to a lack of reasoning. Many are quite reasonable, rational, high-thinking / high-functioning individuals. The capacity for faith does not exclude the ability to reason.
Nicole--You assume to much and I am sure you understand the spelling. The belief in deities is unreasonable regardless of any other exercise of reason.
I don't know if I assume too much, you've made the ultimate assumption here, but seem to not want to hear any contrariant opinions. Don't know why you're making a crack @ my spelling, either. Pointless to converse with you, you decided you're right.
Nicole--Assume----when one assumes it is the old adage that it makes an of ass-u-&-me. Show me the error of my thinking and demonstrate that the belief in a deity is rational. Start with Osiris.
Why on earth would I provide you a logical rationalization for eons dead Egyptian Gods / Goddesses? I mean, really, I've better things to do with my time. As for assuming, again, I'm basing my comments on what you've put out there so far.
Nicole-You seem to be upset. Try to avoid the emotional responses and deal more objectively to the initial question. You seem to have a strong bias that is interfering with, well, so many things.
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