The most important thing you should consider over anything else is how you treat others.
It's great to find God, but it's more important to just BE A GOOD PERSON. It's what everyone should strive for first. Not money. Not beauty. Not knowledge.
At the end of the day, all you really have is what you choose to give to the world. Why not make it something good instead of something selfish, mean, cruel, belittling, arrogant, trivial.
Good point, but the bible teaches that the most important thing is to believe in the God of the bible. Do you disagree with it's teachings. I was unfortunately at a Catholic funeral last week where the priest said the most important thing was to get all the sacraments as only then are you guaranteed a way into heaven.
I don't agree with many of the teachings in the Bible. I follow my heart, not a book. There are some things in there that feel right to me. Others not so much.
Few believers in a god will agree, unless you simply mean that the bible is a lie. The edicts, commands and desires of their personal god are far more important that what their heart says. One has only to read to story of Abraham (and believe it) to fully understand that.
Maybe a lot of the Bible is a lie. I would suggest a better word is "stories", that were taken for real possibly.
Think about it. It's mostly obvious allegories and metaphors. Many of the stories say pretty much the same things,altered here and there.
Anyone who takes the Bible as literal fact is fooling themselves for some unknown reason. Probably not stupidity, possibly just fear of admitting the Bible stories aren't true. Fear of offending God, or maybe other Christians.
All true, but irrelevant. All I was trying to say is that an awful lot of people put whatever they think of as "god's word" ahead of what they want. Or at least profess to; the things they want always seem to seep through, usually by twisting "god's word" into what they want anyway.
As far as the bible being literal fact - if it is indeed God's Word, given to us in order that we understand what He wants, then it WILL be understandable to all. It will not need "interpretation", it will not need to be read as something it does not say. Only if it means exactly what it says can it ever be considered as available to everyone.
A little foggy - do I agree to what? That some people imagine up their own god, complete with instructions and commands on how to live? Sure - we see it all around us.
Do I think that those imaginings are truth? Not a chance.
I meant do you agree that being a good person, being good to other people, is the most important thing?
Compared to following the edicts of a make believe god? That mostly tells everyone to do whatever they want anyway?
Hardly a comparison at all. Yes, being good to other people takes priority over following the bible or any other holy writings or beliefs.
Abraham - I vaguely remember that story. He was the guy that was going to kill his son - for God. But then, God told him he didn't have to.
I remember thinking - damn - I'm sure glad I didn't have a dad like Abraham.
Love God, love your neighbor as yourself, and all the law is fulfilled. If you argue for anything else you didn't get the point of the book. If you argue that the book pushes any other final point, then you didn't understand the book.
It's pretty simple and a major thread which runs through the base of almost every religion. Theists ignore it and atheists ignore it. The reason why is obvious.
Right, love God first. Then neighbour (tribe), and a list of all the things we should do to the people we conquer from other tribes. Sounds like something some tribe leader made up to empower their men?
Ummmm. Think about it radman. What is God? The source of all things. If God is the source of all things then God is all things.
Your other point might have been valid sometime in the stone age, but is it, truly, relevant now? Love your neighbor as yourself. Who is your neighbor now? All of humanity.
Sounds pretty simple. Love all things. Give your neighbor the respect you give yourself. Sorry if that sounds heinous to you.
No it sounds nice, but that's not at all what the bible says. Your first stretch was deciding God is all things when there is no evidence for God at all. You can make stuff up and believe what you want, but OT was written to keep a tribe empowered. It perhaps made sense to them, but making sense of it now would involve the kind of stretches you've just done.
Oddly, you need to run to the OT to find validation for your opinion. That isn't relevant, according to the gospels. You sound like a theist to me.
I wasn't arguing whether or not God existed. The question is, if he exists and if he shared pertinent information through Jesus Christ, what was that pertinent information. If Jesus Christ did have pertinent information wouldn't the spoken words of the Son of God supercede any all musings of men on the topic? If it did, then why are you ignoring it?
I one believes Jesus to be the son of God as prophesied in the OT the one must take the OT as the word of God as well. Jesus (if we believe what was said about him) did not speak of there being anything wrong with the OT. If one is going to take a piece of that pie, you've got to think the entire pie would taste the same.
At least that's the way I see it.
I agree. And I disagree. I do think to believe in Jesus means you have to believe in the God of the Old Testament. However, I think if you do, you have to take his words, follow his words, and notlet anything supersede his words. Again, if he is the son of God should someone such as Isaiah or Jeremiah be taken more seriously? Should Moses be followed? Should Paul take precedent? Who had authority?
That's the problem, in each case we don't have God's direct word. It's all heresy. It's always someone telling us what God or Jesus or Allah or even the God of Mormons said. And in each case the writers have an agenda. If one believes the NT then one must trust that the OT is legit as Jesus said it was. If one believes the Quran to be correct, then one must again believe the OT to be correct and the same goes for the book of mormon. I believe if one understand that the OT is a book of fiction the the rest are as well.
I disagree. Sure, all of the monotheistic religions are rooted in the old testament, but Jesus said something to the effect until the law was fulfilled. If it was, which was apparently the purpose behind the crucifixion; then the Old Testament is simply a history of a people. History seen through the eyes of those people. Do the citizens of the United States follow the laws of the indigenous peoples? Does Canada? Why aren't we doing rain dances these days? They came before us.
My point is simply that the whole point, as I understand of Jesus' teaching and actions was that all you need, in order to find and spread peace and harmony, is to follow two simple rules. Follow those rules and you are fulfilling the law of the universe. We'd have heaven on earth if we all could find a way to follow those simple rules. Love (a feeling of warm personal attachment) the universe. Love your neighbor as yourself. If we felt a personal attachment we wouldn't squander resources. We wouldn't hoard them either. We wouldn't watch the news to find others starving without standing up and changing that. Because we wouldn't want it to happen to ourselves and our fellow human would mean as much to us as we do to ourselves.
We don't want to follow those rules. Nations have to build systems of law to protect us from each other because we don't want to follow those rules. Armies are built to protect us from those who don't want to follow those simple rules. Atheist and theist argue incessantly because they don't want to follow those simple rules.
So Americans don't follow the laws set by their founding fathers? Let's face it the RIGHT to own and carry a gun is archaic at best, but yet here we are. It's ridiculous to be honest when we don't have a RIGHT to drive a car (it's a privilege) and yet people think it's the God given right to be able to shoot someone strolling through the area at night because of the colour of their skin or maybe it was the hoodie.
I get what you're saying and it would be nice and right if we all took care of each other, but perhaps slave morality/ethics isn't working because humans are inherently unable to give away to others not in their own tribe (short of Bill Gates and a few others). Look at health care for example, In the U.S. you have one of the most Christian nations in the world and yet the well-to-do don't want to share the cost for health care. These so called Christians want the poor to suck it up and pay there own way, the very opposite of what Jesus of the bible spoke of. Slave morality/ethics of the NT is share the wealth. North America does not share the wealth and this is one of the things that upsets the middle east and what has prompted 9/11.
So that being said, are Christians in favour of public healthcare? Are Christians in favour of clawing back the wealth of the rich using taxes and salary caps to help raise wages? Are Christians ready to put down their guns and turn the other cheek? Here we are 2000 years later and it's still okay to kill people of other tribe/nations but not our own tribes, why is that?
So, again, you springboard off of my comment into a tangent totally unrelated to my comment. I should have known. Rant on. I think I'll start referring to you as rant man. Not rad man.
Have a nice night.
I was perfectly on topic, you just won't or don't want to see it.
1. Love the universe
2. Love the neighbour
Are Christians doing those things?
If Christians love the universe they'd take care of the environment. They don't.
If Christians love their neighbour they'd take care of them. They don't. They don't want universal health care for all. The rich Christians look at the poor and say suck it up, while their own book says the rich stand no chance at all in getting into heaven.
Jesus talked about turning the other cheek and Christians think it's their RIGHT to protect themselves.
I'm perfectly on topic and you know it.
No, you are ignoring the obvious. Who cares if there is a God or not? That isn't the point. The point is it doesn't matter if you are an atheist, a theist, a Visigoth or anything at all. You want to lambast Christians for doing the same thing you constantly do. You are incapable of following the two simple rules. We all are. That's the problem. Not religion. The need to attempt to fix everything but ourselves. Our egos stand in the way. Your entire post supports this.
Emile, you must love to argue because you are only repeating what I just said.
People are incapable of following those rules, even the ones directed to by what they think is their God. I just backed it up with examples which you may not particularly like.
The problem is you point the finger, point the finger, point the finger. It's hypocritical. Christians don't do anything you don't do, I don't do, and everyone else doesn't do. It's a little like asking us to ignore the man behind the curtain.
What are you talking about. I'm no better than anyone. I've mentioned Christians because the NT tells them to do, as you said love the universe and love the neighbour and they can't even do it. It must be against human nature is what I'm saying. Perhaps slave morality/ethics doesn't work. I'm just citing examples. I'm not better than anyone one else and admit to being cheep. I'm self employed and make okay money at times and then no money other times so I don't like to share. You however didn't answer my question and changed the subject. You as well not that your two core beliefs are great example, but can you follow them (I can't). Do you believe in equal health care for all paid by the public equally?
Christians say their god ask them to love others and say they always do what their god commanded - love their neighbour (or repent and make amendments if they couldn't) while at the same time oppose universal health care. Rad Man do not have a god to command him nor claim he profess/practice universal love - honesty. He is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Christians.
You may be catching on. Yes, I am pointing the finger. As is he. As are you. Why do we do it? Because it's self righteous. Look at me, look at me, I'm not you.
The problem is, we are all the problem. No one is fixing themselves. We defend ourselves by attacking others. Expecting others to fix their problems to suit our fancies. Who are we? None of us are perfect. Why do we expect others to be? We feel justified complaining yet become defensive when the same behavior patterns are used against us. And, if we convince others to think like we do, what have we achieved? Are we perfect? Do we know best? No. All they will be doing is substituting our imperfections for theirs.
The whole point of the gospels was to focus on self. To see our own imperfection in order to bring us closer to an understanding of others because perfection is impossible. A litany of complaints against others shows we don't focus on self. We prop ourselves up in our own estimation by ticking off perceived shortcomings in others. We justify it by claiming moral superiority. But, is it morally superior? Aren't we simply whitewashing? Hiding from fixing ourselves through finger pointing? Is this in our best interest? No. And the sad thing is our best interests are in the best interests of all.
Don't get me wrong. I do the same thing as everyone else. But, we should be mature enough and self aware enough to admit we are all, each and every one of us, the problem. Individually. Collectively. Attempting to slough it off on any one group is childish, self absorbed and pointless. It's self imposed blinders used for the sole purpose of distancing oneself from responsibility.
HERE HERE .... We all need to here (Really listen to) more messages such as this
All I said was that Rad Man admitted himself as less than perfect while christians claim/preach superiority (otherwise why should anyone evangelize?) but do not show that superiority in their behaviour. When a person with god and without god behaves the same way, why should the person with god ask the one without to follow and believe him?
And one doubt too, why are you not practising what you know? People usually do not know when they preach, they think they are doing the right thing. Now you have analysed it well, why not follow?
That is precisely what I was attempting to get through to her. We are all human and as such we follow human nature, and human nature doesn't appear to be able to be Christ like. Notice she refused to answer my questions.
With of course the exception of a few.
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
It's ever so much fun to do as the Romans do. If I didn't speak out, how could you point a finger at me?
Anyway, it isn't as simple as rad man said that. He said a lot of other things. Those were the things I was addressing.
"I see no saving qualities which endorse atheism as an admirable philosophy"....author unknown
I reread Rad Man's post and think that he was saying the same thing though he was elaborating and giving examples each time thinking that he was not getting his point across.
Thanks, exactly. I think she was arguing because I was showing her that we all are hypocritical, including her. We know what we should be doing, but very few of us can.
I think, the one who preach has more of a responsibility to practice what he preach.
That is a very good point. I'm not directly by any God to live a certain way, but I know what right is so I attempt to strive for what is right, but when someone feels they are directed by God to behave a certain way to get into heaven and they continue along their merry old way anyway, as most Christians do, it makes me wonder if they believe the stuff they preach or do they alter the meaning to suite their needs?
Define preaching. By my definition Rad Man does a lot of it.
Really? I tell others how to live there lives? Seems to me you were the one telling us to love the earth and our neighbours. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Everybody does that, otherwise why are we here in hubpages? But simply preaching and preaching morality and moral superiority is different.
Well, if Jesus was the most important and the rest are to be taken with a grain of salt, why do bigots still cling to Moses and Paul to justify their homophobia?
It a worldview without God , why should anyone care how the world is left?
What is good is common to all.
What is good? What is bad?
to answer, one must ask:
*good for what?
*bad for what?
Also one must consider that the highest good is that which is for the sake of itself and something else.
There is no such thing as good or bad.
Goodness or badness is based on...
(after all, money and beauty and knowledge are not bad things!)
What You think is good, Another might not agree...If you decide love is a good thing to give to someone, and that person does not want what you have to offer... then your love, which you thought sure would be a good thing... is bad to that person. If you happen to think that constantly talking to your child will make him smart, and he ends up being the opposite of smart, all that interaction was not "good" for the child. Or if you think that never letting him cry and always catering to his every whim, will show him how much you love him... and he turns out to be a lazy, unappreciative oaf of an individual, all your good intentions were not actually "good" for him. If you think that giving your child, at an early age, the latest and greatest in smartPhones, iPads or lap-tops, etc. will make him smart, but all he ends up being is severely addicted, all that technology and your "goodness" in providing it, was not "good" for him at all.
So, while you, janesix, may think it is an easy matter to say, all we need to do is be good to one another.... it is trickier than one thinks.
Contributing Here in The Name of Argument.
The key opens the lockbox that contains the paints. That's the "most important thing" the painter was referring to.
it just seems to me that Atheists can rightfully argue against different interpretations OF who or what a God IS; because there are so many different interpretations, conflicting interpretations! It doesn't seem possible for them that ALL of these can be correct. These are all opinions concerning what something is! The same can be said about most everything.
Just because my comprehension of what a thing IS is incorrect, does not necessarily mean the thing does not exist. There are a few people that might say that I have created a few homes in my life time because I assembled the pieces together to build a house. Depending upon what a persons definition of create is, some might say that I "are" a creator, while others argue ( rightfully so), that I am not one.
SOooo whether or not the house exists seems to be up for debate.
Sometimes our logic isn't as logical as we would like to think.
janesix, I'm in love!
Seriously, this is one beautiful topic and beautifully presented.
When you excel at being a good person (not for your own, public self, but privately and even anonymously), you are finding God. You're finding love in its truest sense.
This is transcendent. This is responsibility on rocket thrusters. For when you take 100% responsibility for everything around you and that happens to you, there is no room for blame or being a victim. No room for complaints -- only more love.
Thank you, janesix, for making my day.
May the love of Christ, Allah and Buddha, be with you always. And may your cup always remain empty so you may continue to learn, and others may learn from your example.
the most important thing....is how i treat myself....the rest will fall from there...e.g. how i treat people etc etc etc...my 2 cents....my beliefs...right or wrong
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