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2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
If you have anything to contribute to the Bible discussion please join in!
God bless, and praise Jesus Christ the Son of God!
We are being told to study, because many are fooled because they did not know the truth of the scripture. They were taken away by smooth words.
I'm amazed at how many Christians don't try to study, or else they end up speaking with a misplaced form of credit. I'm not the most studied myself, but I've learned to do something--to question some popular interpretations. There's one that comes to mind often, and that's about "calling things that be not as though they be"...
Romans 4: 17 says:
"(As it is written, 'I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.'"
It's not that I don't believe in having Faith, because I sure do believe in that! It's just that I've heard so many preachers and others who focus on the personal "name it, claim it" saying and never expound upon the wording in the Bible. The Book says it is God who calls those things which aren't as though they are. Not us.
What say you?
Life and death are in our tongue- we choose to speak words of LIFE God's word-verses the words of the enemy which are DEATH.
We make whatever the situation is lose its power when we speak God's word over it- against it.
God's angels harken to His(God's) word, Satan's crew harken unto the words of death and use our words of death & unbelief to further his agenda to steal,kill and destroy.
This goes into sowing and reaping, also anything we believe and act on in belief and trusting God's word for must first be in our heart and than come out.
So we continue to speak & sow the truth-the life of God's word in our heart so eventually it will come of of our mouth in faith,with power from our belly.
Out of our bellies flow rivers of living water-God's word is living water.
Calling those things which are not as though they are isn't how people understand it- like if I'm sick I am not going to go around all day saying so-not going to lie either but I'd rather go to the promises of God and speak what God says about my body.
Which is a lot. If we can't believe it and act on faith (trusting God) taking him for his word than it stops us from receiving. This is part of seeking God and lining up to his word but not all that we have been told to do.
Man does not live by bread alone but by every word that procedes out of the mouth of God. God's word is powerful and we can bank our life on it.
Amen! In this life, Jesus has promised us that we will have suffering in this life, but if we hold fast til the end we will be saved!
This post is not in violation of your stated objectives prior to the scriptural reference. It's intent is merely to question your understanding of said reference.
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
I don't think the average evangelical rightly divides truth. If there is a creator, who wants to be understood; wouldn't it follow that truth in our reality must line up with perceived truth on a cosmic scale.
This being said; every statement made that flies in the face of reality implies that those who make the statements aren't studying correctly. Which might explain why they get flustered and blustery when questioned. Isn't this a sign of being ashamed?
It all depends on faith. Your reality depends on where your faith lies. So, it is up to you what "flies...". I recive all questions. No one knows everything about anything without putting "stock" in the words presented. I have studied the bible extensively, but I may miss something. I'm human. But my error should never sway your faith. If I constantly insist that the sky is a besutiful shade of brown, no evidence I give to support my argument would help you to see things my way. Such as it is with the faith of those who walk this path. Ask whatever you like? My faith will answer.
I'll grant you that reality, in some respects, depends on where your faith is. You think God exists. Then your reality includes a deity. You think Jesus is the son of God. It is true for you.
However, your reality becomes your delusion when you attempt to make claims that fly in the face of our collective reality. Claims that are only wishful thinking.
I've read some of your posts. You seem to be level headed. But, try insisting that the Bible shows the earth is six thousand years old, that God answers selfish prayers (while starving millions), and you have judged me hell worthy, or others from among the myriad nonsensical posts; and I'll conclude that you completely misunderstood the point when you read your Bible.
Which brings me back to my original point. The average evangelical does not divide truth rightly; so, if that particular passage is correct, they have not successfully studied. It follows that the result of their studies are not approved unto God. Which would explain behavior patterns when questioned on foolish beliefs.
Who says that the average evagelist does not rightfully divide? Terms such as collective reality seem a bit obscure since our main argument and agreement is that so many, believe so different. I have always said that God is judge, so agree on that point, however, you say I judge hell worthy?
Like I said, you seem level headed. I haven't read a comment that you reserve the right to judge others on a cosmic scale.
But, collective reality is not obscure. We all have eyes to see. You referenced insisting the sky was brown. Our collective experience shows this, except perhaps on rare occasions, to be wrong. To insist that to be consistently true would be a lie, or delusion.
This goes for many arguments the Christian puts forth from their understanding of the Bible. It seems to me that, if God exists; isn't it also the Christian argument that God created this reality? So, why would he create something and then expect those who love Him to use His word to deny any portion of his creation?
Reality is again going according to faith. Some believe that the earth just happened. Some attribute the beginning to a boom. I merge the two and figure my God created the boom with his voie. Collective??? Believe it or not, we are here, why? Im sure you can guess how "collective" this respose would be...see?
You call the Christian argument lies and bsurdity? According to whom? Is this a collective thing again? If so, according to who? Depends on faith.
Faith does not recreate reality. You aren't gods, you know.
Or do you?
What is reality to me? We are still learning, but we live in the same reality; so it is a somewhat silly question. We wake up to the same sky. Breath the same air. Probably drink the same brand of coffee.
Faith is of no use when you hide from the collective reality. It serves no purpose when you deny the collective reality. And, I think it belittles the idea of a Creator when anyone insists that reality is not what it is.
If anyone looks to writing as scripture. 'God breathed' as many put it. If your interpretation and your understanding of your god fly in the face of the reality we share then you are, in essence, claiming to follow a prankster. A charlatan.
You then make excuses for this charlatan. Expecting others to allow the lies to be white washed in the process. If God exists, he obviously doesn't think much of it because he is woefully silent on the subject.
Ok, when you figure out what all this daily reality means to you collectively, meet me here. I will show you the absurdities...that is, if you have not become "delusional" like me by then.
What we believe ourselves to be, on a cosmic scale, is personal. It has to be. Because it is a belief. Without proof, pushing your belief as the ultimate cosmic reality is not only egotistical; it is pointless.
We all have egos. Mine, however, does not subscribe to the belief that my beliefs must be shoved at others and insist that they are cosmic truths. I am secure enough in my knowledge not to need safety in numbers.
So, sorry. If the simple words 'collective reality' are beyond your understanding, I assume that is by choice. I'm not going to bore myself by explaining what we both already know.
Emile R. I can understand fully your desire to keep your cosmic confusion to yourself. Your response to the question has shed a bright light on what mystery underlies your thought pattern. I can honestly say that you sound not only mysterious but waay too smart. Your response wss very intelligen tly crafted to say that you believe....oh yeah, it's secret.
What business are my inner thoughts of yours? Christians only ask so that they can insist that they are right and everyone else is wrong.
I have no problem sharing, in the appropriate environment. One of mutual respect and interest. One of the humility that comes from accepting that unprovable things are unknown. These truths are foreign to the evangelical mindset. You seek conflict where others desire accord.
So, you scrutinize my inner thoughts and call them delusional, better yet, all lies, but you don't want to open the door to your truth? Then, tell me that the "truth" is secret? Ok, next...
It's no secret. Do you understand the difference between right and wrong? Truth and fiction? Probably not, judging from this exchange.
Cosmic truth has not been discovered. We hope. We dream. We pattern our lives around what we believe to be cosmic truths, but the only things we have to offer in testimony to our beliefs are our actions. Our arguments mean nothing. Because no one can back their argument with fact. I believe this is by design geneaa. To force man to grow up. To think for themselves. To stop using the crutch of religion.
To learn to love one another. Religion is an impediment to this. The religious mouth the words 's love your neighbor', but with every action the religious attempt to ostracize, trivialize and belittle the hopes, dreams and needs of others. Religion is, by design, void of spirituality.
So, there you have my belief. The universe from its farthest reaches down to the sub-atomic level was meant to function in harmony. The religious are a continuing discordant bar. The problem is you were given every piece of information necessary to learn the tune, but instead you piece meal dead words together and shout them to the four corners of the winds. You aren't assisting in humanity's evolution. Religion is a stumbling block.
Are you implying that my truth that GOD IS is wrong because it doesn't match with your cosmic reality? Right and wrong, truth and fiction are all according to how you believe. If you feel that cosmic truth has not been discovered? Then after what do you align your actions? You can only make this statement based upon what it is you believe. I know that if I jump from a 5 story building to the ground I would probably be dead. Now that you can probably agree with depending on how you believe. So can I say that everyone who jumps that 5 stories will die? Stunt men can probably do it, but they can never be certain of the outcome. Bunji jumpers Do it all the time, with faith in their cord, but, is there certainty there? Cosmic truth...what is it? I say that the cosmos are in line with God's word. No question in my mind or heart. Now, I can never give you the faith that I have. You must find your own realities and prove them to yourself, as I have. Yes, the world is to meant to harmonize, but it hasn't happened yet, can you agree with that, at least? So, to me, God through his son Jesus created a way for my life to operate here on earth, it is as real to me as the apparatus you use to type out these words is to you. Can you then step into my reality to disrupt my path? Heavens no! Even when you don't have a clue what your reality is, you must have FAITH in something. Your faith in whatever you have placed it determines your reality. Where is your faith? Things you can see and touch? Not faith at all. Your faith is somewhere in the cosmos. You can't see it or touch it, but it whispers to you everyday. God cannot be proven to you, I get it. But please, send me an email once he proves himself to you. Believe he will be coming to your rescue. He wants you to feel the peace that comes from not feeling as if you need to know it all first. See, you will never find that. I can assure you.
Your idea of God would never prove itself to me, so don't wait up for my email. You didn't understand a word I typed, or (more probably) you didn't bother to read it. You are using my replies as little more than an excuse to continue on with your train of thought.
You do not have a cosmic truth. You never have. You have faith. And if you honestly believe that truth and fiction are all according to how you believe then I'm somewhat flabberghasted. Are you implying that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is real? Can I conjure up a unicorn if I believe it? You are not a god. I am not a god. Reality is what it is.
Truth and fiction all go according to how you believe when you are speaking of matters of beliefs. God is real, he left the bible, however fragmented, as our set of facts, and he lives in me today are all truths to me. From your conversation, you feel that you must fly around in the cosmos searching for "the truth" when what you can see does not answer the inner question. I can't fly around with you, but when you land, questions-in-hand, turn to God. But remember, no book is going to satisfy your thirst for knowledge if you don't believe the words contained therein. You have to have faith in the author. Too risky for me.
No. Truth and fiction cannot go hand in hand. If your beliefs do not line up with reality then your belief is fiction and will always be fiction; no matter how much you wish otherwise. It is a child's game and not worthy of anyone who is truly interested in answers. I'm sorry you consider it, as you say, 'too risky'. Truth should be the goal we all seek.
Did you read "truth and fiction go hand in hand"? Sorry, read that again. Look at it this way. Fire is hot. Fact or fiction? Fire burns skin, fact or fiction? If I put my hand in fire, my skin will get burned, fact or fiction? I'v seen many people put their hand in fire and not get burned. Do I believe what I saw, or can I just go around sticking my hand over open flames? Some people have "something" that I don't have.
Again, you give an example from the physical world to support a claim of cosmic knowledge. It doesn't work that way.
Ok, now you have 360d; the physical world and what can be proven "by most" has always been your argument right?
I don't think you follow my argument. I don't deny the spiritual. I do scoff at claims that not only overreach, but push the idea of a creator into a box that suits the particular fancy of the religious person who happens to be speaking. If a creator exists, that entity doesn't work for you. If a consciousness exists it doesn't belong to any religion. If it did, we would have evidence. This lack of evidence proves religion is only collective and willful delusion driven by ego.
I don't think you follow your argument either. I haven't made claims that push my creator into a box, it is you trying to push him in. Suit the fancy of the speaker? are you talking to the correct person? My claim is that God and his son Jesus are real and the bible is authorized as the word that he sent. You start asking for evidence....well, that, again, depends on your faith to recieve it as evidence. Do you get it yet or do we have to start over?
I initially posted in this thread questioning the average evangelical interpretation of a passage that had been posted. You replied to my post, which led me to believe you considered yourself representative of the average evangelical.
Nothing that I have questioned has fallen outside of the repeated claims by evangelicals on this site or specific statements you have made.
So, what I get is that you think fiction should be accepted as fact......because you say so. (Fiction being defined as claims that can not be corroborated by any information outside of the book you claim to be the word of God.)
You are saying that you can prove that the bible is full of crap. Right? I am saying that you cannot prove it to me. I have personal experience. your evidence cannot speak loud enough for me. My faith believes that you are wrong. For me, it is a proven fact that I am right. How can you say that God has not proven himself as factual to me? Because you don't believe me is not reason for me to change my faith and how absolutely marvelous it is for me to be a part of.
No wonder your religion causes so many fights. Do you even understand what you are saying?
Why would you come here and try to convince people your Invisible Super Being is real if it is only due to personal experience?
You do know the difference between personal experience and facts - right?
My posts are an attempt to urge people such as yourself to personally experience for themselves. It is not enough to read any book. The spirit, of God rests, rules, and abides with any who has a small amount of faith, enough to accept him and learn of his awesome power for themselves. You cannot fathom this experience because you are not open to it. Lean not unto thine own understanding... in all thy ways, acknowledge him, and he will direct thy path. If you do not believe these statements, you can never find real truth. Read and read all you like...you will never be able to explain "the truth" without our father, God.
Now, I'll change a few words, throw your post back at you so you can see just how ridiculous it sounded to me.
My posts are an attempt to urge people such as yourself to use your brain and break free of your own delusion. You cannot fathom this because you are not open to it. Lean not unto thine own ignorance... in all thy ways, use your mind, and and you will find thine own path. If you do not believe these statements, you can never find real truth. Hide and hide all you like...you will never be able to explain "the truth" because it is just your delusion.
You've been using your mind, have you found anything?
So, you've accepted the lord Jesus as your personal savior, finally?
I took "about as much as you have" to be a declaration that you have found about as much as I have. I took you at your word. Face value. No assumption, no bias.
I take you at face value also. You have no proof of having found anything. Neither do I. The difference between us is I don't make claims that my personal hopes are 'truth'.
I can only make claims that my personal hopes are true because of the faith that I have that they are. Don't you see that to believe anything biblical, or from so long ago, takes faith? Evidence of things you haven't seen. You don't know the man that wrote the damning books on Jesus from Adam. You have placed your faith in what he (the man you've never met) says. Get it? He could've been drinking that day and decided to throw another monkey-wrench in. You can never state that what he says are facts because he wasn't there. However, I do seem to remember that you don't consider much of anything to be fact. Although you mentioned the earth being 6000+yrs old based upon tests that somebody else you don't know says he conducted. See, I know Jesus personally. You can too.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Damning books from Jesus to Adam? What is that? Have you been drinking?
You've made it clear you put your faith in a poor interpretation of a book. That interpretation takes precedent over the reality you inhabit. That's your choice. I think it shows a lack of faith but, again, that is your choice.
You are sure that I'm wrong? Will you please state a fact for me?
You twisted my words because you couldn't do anything with them the way they were. I won't accuse you of drinking...I understand your lack.
Seriously. Your post was unintelligible. I have no idea what a damning book is.
I was so sure you said you had a dictionary... It seems that you allowed a missing comma to trip you. I was saying that you don't know the man from Adam. That means, if Adam and the author of the books that attempt to "damn" the life of Jesus were standing in a room together, you wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. I said that to say that you put a lot of trust in his words to not personally know him. I know I can trust my authors because the spirit that is within me (that that you call a lie) allows me to know that I can. Are you now able to understand my post? I can explain again.
You could have used perfect punctuation and I would have still been scratching my head. I have no idea why you've jumped off on this tangent. What authors? What books attempt to 'damn' the life of Jesus?
I realize, as an evangelical, you can't quite fathom the fact that no one is being led away. I'm not putting my trust in anyone else's words. You are the one that allows yourself to be fed an opinion. You are the one who apparently needs to find a consensus and get everyone on the same page.
And, you are blind to the fact that you mouth the word faith, but every one of your posts doesn't show faith in anything but your own ego. You have to be right on a cosmic scale. That need drives your side of the argument.
What drives your side? I was speaking of the evidence and fact that you spoke of that disprove my faith. Surely that's where you got your information, books right? You speak fact, truth, evidence, cosmos, dictionary. How do you not follow? I spoke faith, you spoke fact. Don't you remember?
Genaea, I read a lot of books. I've read the Bible from beginning to end. I don't know that I have ever read a book whose stated objective was to 'damn' the life of Jesus. Most things I've read on the subject were studying the history of the faith. Attempting to understand what it was in the beginning.
But, the thing that I believe disproves your faith the most is your idea of faith itself. I use 'your' as a general reference to evangelicals. I don't know you personally; but you sing a similar tune to most others posting on this site.
You are the one who brought up the dictionary when you thought it was your ineffective use of punctuation that began the confusion. Since there are entire sects that have been begun within Christianity because of a disagreement over the placement of a comma; I'd say our misunderstanding was small in comparison.
The only thing that drive my side is the search for truth. Cosmic truth is going to have to line up with reality or it can't be truth.
Please excuse me if I was the first to bring up dictionary. I was taunted over my supposed misunderstanding of the meaning of the words in my previous post. Yesterday, I was urged to buy one, I thought that it was during our exchange. Faith to me is the substance if things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen, because I believe the bible. I have faith in God. You do not. We don't have to agree. But you say to me that something so important to me is foolish? Now what were you saying about ego?
That's alright. I know you get hit from all sides and sometimes you don't know if you are coming or going. That's one thing bad about the forums because you don't always know who you are talking to and sometimes you assume someone with a certain belief structure is just like someone else you were talking to.
I don't mean to give you such a hard time. I don't have a problem with faith in God. No one has proof either way, so it isn't such a bad thing to hope for.
But, you say faith is the things hoped for. That is my primary problem with evangelical Christianity. The things you hope for. If your hopes prove true, billions will suffer. Unfairly by any compassionate standard. Be careful what you wish for. Someday, you could live to regret it.
God does not wish for any to perish. He left instructions. They are not hard to follow. Faith is misunderstood all of the time. Many of the people who claim to be followers are faking, and are not considered his children by him. But, the relationship you allow with God fills in the gaps (questions) no matter how long one lives, there will ALWAYS be another question. Faith in God allows his children to rest. They know the one who holds the future. I don't want to bother anyone who does not believe. My message is for those who have questions about the God that I have faith in. Everyone is respected by me. I owe that. I condemn no one! I firmly believe that if any of that is to be done, God does it. He left us instructions not to judge. That one I am strong in. Where I'm weak, mercy and grace cover me until my time.
Many fake it?
Do you ever stop to reason through the typical evangelical statements? You guys are always cosmically approved. Any who disagree are either wrong, or faking it. You do understand that means that, by your argument, those people are hell bound also?
You have no idea how sad it is to think about how completely clueless the argument in favor of your faith truly is. It lacks every ounce of compassion that should be your primary concern.
My faith says that there are rules to live by. Now, we don't always get it. We realize we need the comforter to carry us through daily living. There are things, if you are not walking my way, that you will never fathom. Better yet, there is no faith or nonfaith (for lack...) that will be sure to answer your questions 100%. Your human condition is packed with wonder and always will be. I choose to believe what I know to be true for me. So many times in my life I was told that I would be "here" at some point. Well, I'm here! No science could have predicted my future from childhood!!! I can't speak for you. I can only speak what I know. If you want a piece of that...I'm here.
Genaea, do you have a normal life? Do you have a close, intimate relationship with another human being? Do you get into the fields and country lanes, just walking in the sunshine, or the rain, enjoying the sunshine and all of nature?
Do you have the normal phobias, anxieties, fears, financial strifes, etc., which we mere mortals have?
Do you ever leave people alone to walk their journey without interference from yourself and your beliefs?
Or do you see yourself as some sort of saviour?
Well Jonny, I am extremely appreciative of nature. Ironically, I suffer from allergies, so, not too much now. I really don't have a problem sharing my faith, I like it a lot! Thank you for being one of my constant companions throughout this journey. I am not forcing you to hear me. But my former pastor used to say, "if you throw a rock at a pack of dogs, the only one who helps is the one you hit." You've been yelping a lot for me, thanks, I'm making a difference!
Is that what you saw? Or are you just picking? Truth please.
Yes. That is what I saw. It's like when Christians arrogantly comment about 'pearls to swine'. They are making derogatory statements about others.
It doesn't contribute to a civil conversation.
So what do you think of the questions asked of me by Mark? I simply spoke a metaphor that I've heard for better than half my life. Don't cast your pearls to swine, is interpreted by me as giving your treasures to those who will never appreciate them. Another metaphor, spoken by Jesus, I'm pretty sure. Jesus was never derogatory, he spoke the much needed truth to a generation who had forgotten the truth. You take it so offensively because you have an issue with the truth, still hidden from you; right in front of your eyes. I have nothing but the best intentions for you both, but I am held by a duty that is much greater. If you are offended by the word of God, you've been "hit". Find out why.
The problem I see is......you are not Jesus. That is the problem with evangelicals. You think you have the right to invoke the words Christ spoke to the Pharisees and use them against the people. Your thought processes are butt backwards from where we stand. You are the Pharisee. You are the one attempting to use religion as a club. You are the one who has gotten lost in the maze.
Sorry, but the pearls of wisdom are lost on you.
Now YOU'RE angry...geez... Listen, I have no doubt that the word is a club. Actually, a sword. See, it bounces back and ministers to me as well. I am not perfect. I got a lot of stuff to handle, but God promises to carry me through, if I trust him. He will do the very same for you too. As a non-believer, you are on the top of his list of loved ones. The good shepherd leaves the 99 sheep to find and rescue the lost one. When he picks you up, he carries you to safety. Probably with a tender kiss. Since you know the "word" you're half-way there. Ain't nobody trying to hurt you. Butt backwards...??? You get that from the Martha Steward website?
I'm not angry. Simply frustrated at the blindness you can exhibit. You've chosen your path. I have nothing more to say.
Well, maybe one more thing.
That is not within your power.
Uh-huh, Jesus gave me power when he told me, "bless them that curse you." So there! Sorry, I got a little harsh there.