If you were forced to go to Heaven...

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   ..would you want to go?

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      DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      if one is forced...doesn't that imply that they didn't wish to go in the first place...And with that being said, if one is force to go...is there really a choice regardless of one wishes to go or not?

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         ...well how many are willing and happy to pay the fine for not having Health Insurance?

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            DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly!!

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   Other questions:
   Do you feel God is forcing us to go to Heaven?
   Do we have a right to our feelings? Does God respect our wills?
   Is it fair, If God is forcing us to go to heaven?
   Is Heaven an option? or a requirement, or a relief or or a privilege, or a necessity?

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      DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      
      Hmm...Seems like there is only one of two options...Heaven or Hell...
      Feelings...Of course...
      Respect our wills?...we are suppose to have freewill...
      One is not forced to go to heaven...But the other option is Hell...
      It is only a requirement if one believes in that sort of thing..
      Privilege...Well in theory...it is the "reward" for doing certains or beliefs..
      Necessity...it is human nature to wish or want there to be a higher power and for there to be something after death...It gives one something to look forward to...All humans want there to be a higher purpose to our lives...so we can feel like we mattered...But...there is a purpose to our lives...it is to be lived and enjoyed to the fullest as we are only given limited time...

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   Emile Rposted 11 years ago

   Considering the intent of the word, I can't imagine anyone minding. Now, if I found myself in someone else's idea of heaven I'd be miffed.

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      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      LOL. What did the poor 72 virgins do to be stuck for eternity with some religious nut who blew himself up?

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         DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         For some it is Heaven...For others hell... LMAO
         
         Gonna be one mad person when those 72 virgins turn out to be overweight dudes playing video games in their underwear and living in their momma's basement

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         Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Hmm. You missed the point of my post. Not surprising.

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            Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Ahhhh, no I didn't. Those 72 virgins found themselves in someone else's heaven.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Is the only way to get to heaven...
           the desire
                    to be there?
      Cuz yeah, I would actually like to go to heaven. Even if I were forced! Or would I... once I was there long enough?
      ...we'll never know 'til we get there, I guess.
      And how do I know if I want to go to heaven if I don't exactly know what it is?

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         Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         We use the term heaven to imply the things we most enjoy. Certain foods are heavenly. Certain company is heavenly. A grand vacation is described as heavenly.  So, if eternity consistently fell into the parameters of experience we find most appealing then we would consider that experience to be worth hoping for.
         
         I think we can't fathom eternal contentment because we compare it to what we know. How we currently experience existence and, let's be honest. If it were so perfect in the other reality then we have to wonder what would compel a higher being to create not only everything within that reality; but this one also. However, assuming that another reality exists and conditions within that other reality are such that it could be universally described as heaven within this reality then I am left to assume it is considered heaven because the angst associated with life in our physical forms will be a thing of the past.
         
         Paul (for all of his shortcomings) made an interesting comment concerning the next life. We are now like seeds compared to the mature plant we will become. The two are totally different in appearance. Our collective mistake is attempting to imagine an existence that will satisfy who we now are. And since you can't satisfy everyone on this plane of existence we have no problem excluding others from our idea of heaven.

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            Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Very cool Emile, It would seem that within our own minds we create heaven. Because we can only relate to what we know. I have a problem then. I think here is heaven. I will go elsewhere kicking and screaming. Not because I am afraid of hell or heaven, but because I really really like it here.

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               Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               Hey Eric, I agree with you.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Eric, I really think you would go willingly to heaven! don't you? It is a state of peace and bliss. it is not a state of nothingness. Actually... imagine that you know yourself to be who you are, but that now, you are immortal! Imagine that you are not encumbered with a body, that you can read the thoughts of others, that you no longer feel gravity, that you can travel anywhere at anytime at the speed of light, that you know beauty, you know everything, but you are not caught up in it!
                  Excuse My Creative Writing

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                     Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Boring. Sorry but it sounded/looked like you just described Happy Valley nursing home with good meds.
                     OTOH it sounds like me blissing out after an hour of yogic meditation and very deep breathing.
                     But it does not sound like the sweetness of hard fought victory, or the exhilaration of reaching a peak or the cry of a child after a hard delivery. It does not sound like any more overcoming or challenges.
                     It does not sound like the joy of one just finding a spiritual path. It sounds like dead people.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        yeah? see below.

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               Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               I'm not displeased with life, but I have an insatiable curiosity.  I would hope that many unanswered questions can be answered at some point.

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                  Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  You got me there Emile. That is a great perspective, I like it. Like "why did you climb that mountain?"  --- "to see what was on the other side!"

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                     Emile Rposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     Yes. That sums it up. Unfortunately, regrets hold us tightly to this side of the mountain and cause us to fear how those on the other side will judge the goings on here. Which is silly. If they see us then they've had ample time to understand why we are compelled to do the things we do.

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                        Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        I am a boo boo head - or so my youngest reminds me. And his mom chimes in with a song about boo boo. I got issues. I got more "I done you wrong" songs than youtube.
                        But fear is not a part of why I do not want to go. And as you have well pointed out, perhaps I should want to go.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   My viewpoint is that God does not punish...
   that would be like forcing us to go to heaven.
   Instead, He leaves it to us whether to aim for heaven...
   or not.
   Why? Because punishment obliterates free will.
   
   I am interested in opposing view points.

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      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Looks like you haven't read the Bible, yet.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         It seems like a lot of people who are doing the wrong thing don't concern themselves with eventual punishment. Is that because they are not religious? Or they don't believe they will be punished?

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            Hokeyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            How did you even come up with question? Its irrational. Then again so are most organized religions.

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            A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            Since the God of the Bible is a psychotic despot who punishes people for not loving and worshiping Him, amongst a long list of other minor offenses He deems worthy of punishment, the obvious choice is to stand against such a tyrant and reject Him instead of bowing to Him like a spineless coward.

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               Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

               ATM, good to hear from you. " instead of bowing to Him like a spineless coward." I kind of like this sentiment. If someone bows to Him like a spineless coward how could being next to Him be heaven? The last thing I want to be is next to my wife when she is pissed!
               I do suppose that a lot of folks worship because of fear. Perhaps their notion of heaven would be kind of like S&M.

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                  A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  If God behaves like a psychotic despot, then there can be no such place as heaven. He may call it that, but it's only a facade.

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                     Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                     ATM you speak too much in absolutes. Don't you think it might still be heaven for others that act like psychotic despots. Or even for others who like to watch such stuff. And what about people who just love to martyr themselves?
                     My heaven would definitely include you being punished by all the love you would get!

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                        A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                        No, that's how believers speak.
                        
                        
                        
                        Perhaps, but that doesn't preclude the fact it isn't heaven for the rest of us.
                        
                        
                        
                        Yes, I can see what your religion teaches you. That is exactly the problem.

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                  Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                  Forever is a long time. Us humans tend to get bored easily. When I was a kid I wanted to live forever. Now I think, we come, we stay, we go.

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         Hokeyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Lets see. Punish? The jews and Christians believe he smots Sodom and Gomorrah, killed everyone in a flood, tortured that poor guy Lot and released Miley Cyruz to twerk! Punishment?

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

            (Her method of dancing reveals she is not in touch with her soul. She is not in command of her life or herself. She is very young, however, so I do not blame her. She is the product of adults who are using and abusing her. I hope she will find herself some day. She really needs to keep away from substances. She needs the tough love of adults who will respect her. When will they step up to the plate? The of consequences not stepping up to the plate will produce Hell within the minds of the vulnerable youth.  We are not speaking out enough against corruption of the youth.)
            My Unasked Opinion

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   Ericdierkerposted 11 years ago

   I see no issue here. I am constantly forced to do what is good for me. I always feel good after doing it. I have this notion of a heaven being all peaceful and tranquil and serene. No thanks. I like rapids and cliffs and I would never ask for a valley to be raised up or a mountain to be leveled.
   I don't think a heaven is custom ordered. Supposedly all trials of life are over. How boring.
   
   On the other hand, I am sure that just like eating right and daily exercise and work, once I get forced into it I will enjoy the easy heaven life.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Do you think God punishes? Is punishment a form of force? If you were forced to go to heaven, once you were there, would you want to be elsewhere?
      
      What is heaven?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      @ Eric: On some level I believe you agree to being forced, because there is something in it for you and you know what that something is... good health, etc..
      Heaven?  There is something in it for you... but what?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   What would you change in your life if you knew you would be punished for it?
   Does the fear of punishment promote the desire to do the right thing?
   Do we do the right thing for the sake of not being punished?
   When does God punish.
   Now or later?
   Confused about this whole punishment thing. I've always avoided thinking about it.

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      Hokeyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      You dont need God to punish you. Its called karma which means cause and effect

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         Does God direct the Effect of the Cause?  I have heard that you can cause  bad karma and not reap it until your next life. Do you believe that?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

   If I were God I would punish women for getting pregnant without a home and washer and dryer...before they get pregnant.
   I would punish people for becoming addicted to anything... before they get addicted.
   I would punish anyone who does anything bad to a child... before they do anything bad.
   But He doesn't punish now... maybe only later as in... after we die.  What good is punishment later... especially once we are dead?
   Still confused.

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      Hokeyposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Your kidding right? Your right. Your confused. Not a rational conversation. Im bailing unless some else shows up.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

         ...Some atheists around here think God punishes. I believe in consequences.
         God relies on either the school of hard knocks or believing in the commandments as instructions of how to avoid serious and negative consequences.
         
         Does God of the Bible explain karma?
         Does God threaten punishment?
         After the flood God said he would never cause another flood.
         How bad will we get before he wishes He hadn't said that?
         Or are we becoming more enlightened?

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   BuddiNsenseposted 11 years ago

   If you were forced to go to Heaven...
   If one is forced, then how can that be heaven?

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   Zelkiiroposted 11 years ago

   "The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven." - Lucifer, Paradise Lost Book I

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Two good entries.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

    The answer I have come up with:
    God does not force. God does not punish.
    He guides through warnings, instructions, commandments and consequences.
    He inspires through love and encouragement.
    Q. How does He do this?
    A. Through the words and convictions of those who have known Him (revealed/recorded in written word) and do know Him (modern day teachers) and through our own direct perception of God, His reality and His truths.

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       Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       "For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me"
       
       Are you going to edit the bible to suite the God you envision?
       
       I do particularly like the "His reality…" part.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          Welcome!
          As you know, that quote is precisely why I posted this forum discussion.
          " Visiting the Iniquity,"  you say means, *to punish.*
          I, however, don't.
          To me, it refers to consequences: cause and effect.
          
          I like "His reality..." part, too!
          
          I wonder if anyone here agrees with you that visiting the inequity means to punish?
          Anyone?

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             Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             No response means I won.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years ago

    I think heaven is a relief. A permanent relief.

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       Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

       Relief from what?

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          ...gravity, identification with the gross material body, a sleepy state of mind in which intuitive perceptions are impossible A mind locked inside a brain, unable to see the metaphysical realities of the cosmos, which are vast and beautiful. Did you know there are planets of light for those beings who are spiritually evolved to the point that they operate with bodies of light? Those beings transitioned from the material world to the astral world. But, it doesn't end there. Jesus went beyond even this plane of existence. Love for God brought him there. (Certainly not force or punishment, which brings me back to my original point.) And observe how He operates in our lives!

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             Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

             Kathryn, death of body in a biological sense is not a prerequisite to what you speak of. No rule book claims that you must die to experience these ethereal realities. While the physical mind may be locked inside a skull the energy and thoughts are not. Your body is only a prison to which you hold the key. If you chose to stay locked up until death, that is your choice.

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                Kathryn L Hillposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Did I mention "death in a biological sense?'
                I agree with you!
                "Heaven is within."  And can be had in the" blink of an eye." 
                According to my Source.
                But, Of course, the body does not last forever. (Unless your name is Babaji) "Heaven," ("In my fathers house are many mansions,")  if perceived during one's lifetime, would therefore be guaranteed after death.
                Just Talkin' About Stuff Via the Keyboard!
                What do you think He means by "many mansions?"

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                Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry Eric, your thoughts and energy are locked in your skull. You can express them outside your skull through the rest of your body, but the thought doesn't go anywhere.

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                   Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                   Rad Man, I think for you, you are right. Somehow you think that because that is how you are, the rest of us are the same. I think that is normal. And normal folks cannot think in a way that allows their thoughts to expand beyond their brain. I think empiricists are basically trapped there. But some of us are not. Some people think they need to die and go to "heaven" to escape their bodily burden. Well probably their thoughts create their reality like with you.

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                      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Sorry Eric, but you are not special, you are human like the rest of us and do not possess any special powers over and above the rest of us. Unless you speak or write your thoughts down, on these forums, for example, they will indeed be locked inside your head.
                      
                      And actually, "normal" folks don't accept many of the "thoughts" you produce here.

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                      wildernessposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Your thoughts are not trapped within your skull?  How can you tell? 
                      
                      After all, thoughts do NOT create a new reality, so merely thinking that your thoughts exist outside your body does not make it so.  How do you know that they do, then?  You're not defining a "thought" to be a verbal, written or pictorial representation of the actual thought, are you?

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                      Rad Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                      Eric, you my friend have grossly under estimated me. I also have special powers, only mine are much more useful. I have been given the wonderful ability of knowing when someone is full of s%*t and guess what, my special senses are tingling.

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                         Ericdierkerposted 11 years agoin reply to this

                         Gentlemen, I respect your positions. But clearly this is far afield from Ms. Hill's question --- although to me very relevant.
                         So I asked more pointedly about this issue here http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/117979 so as not to usurp the purpose of this forum.

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