God and Adam

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  1. psycheskinner profile image77
    psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

    Out of curiosity I looked up the rape stat, per year it is 2% of prisoners and 0.5% in the general public. Homicide rates are actually equivalent at 5 per 100,000, which says quite a lot for the prison system IMHO,

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    1. wilderness profile image89
      wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Would disagree, particularly with the rape.  We force these people into circumstances where they cannot protect themselves, where they are forced into the daily company of known rapists and murderers.

      And then we fail to protect them.  It is incumbent on society to provide as near complete protection as possible and we are not doing that, especially in the case of rape where the rate is 4 times outside population. 

      I realize criminals are in there of their own doing, but that does not relieve society of the duty to protect them in the situation we have forced them into.

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      1. psycheskinner profile image77
        psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I meant the equivalence of homicide stat was surprising--given that there are presumably many more murderers in prison than out I expected being in prison to increase risk of being killed.

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        1. wilderness profile image89
          wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          It is surprising,  I suppose it is the near total control over every moment that makes it possible even with the number of murderers there.  Though I still think even that one is too high, considering society is playing a part in making them possible.

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    2. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      2% of prisoners are raped? That's all???
      They say 15-20% of U.S. women have been raped in their lifetime. Where did you get your stats??? Note please, that's just women. You making stuff up???
      I won't even check the murder rates. Dudes are dying in the streets everyday. Victims of domestic or racial violence are dying everyday. Co-workers; bad drivers; supermarket clerks; school children...
      Let's start over...
      Morality is on the decline outside of prisons.
      Your turn.

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      1. wilderness profile image89
        wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        You're looking at apples and oranges.  In a prison the vast majority of rape is going to be homsexual; how many US women have suffered homosexual rape?  Certainly not anything anywhere near 15%...

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        1. psycheskinner profile image77
          psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          2% per year, versus .5% per year--mainly women attacked by men in both populations.  Apples to apples.

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          1. wilderness profile image89
            wildernessposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry - I took too many "stupid" pills this morning.  Of course the 20% of women attacked were not all this year.

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            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              There is more rape outside of prison than there Is inside. Case CLOSED... wink AND I do not know HOW we have narrowed less morality outside of prison than inside down to rape...
              Quit it with the misconstruing already

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            2. Oztinato profile image74
              Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              I am begining to understand wilderness: he takes stupid pills. Of course!!

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        2. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          We are speaking of morality. All rape is THAT.
          YOU are bringing oranges to an applefest:)

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  2. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 10 years ago

    Made in the image of the creator and sustainer of the universe to be incompetent and stupid.  That's one I haven't actually heard before.

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    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Who's quote is that?

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      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        It's basically what I gathered from some posts on the last couple pages of this thread, primarily from Genaea.  That our thoughts are incompetent.  That the dummies follow Christ.  Some with context and some without, but a glance at all the posts would make someone think that we Christians (who believe ourselves made in God's image) think we are incompetent and stupid.  I'm not comfortable with some of those statements at all, and I believe that God doesn't see us as incompetent or stupid, and might take offense to his children being characterized that way.

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        1. profile image0
          SirDentposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for the reply.  I will say this, God's ways are above our ways and His thoughts are above our thoughts.

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          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            With that I agree.  smile But he gave us brains and empowered us to gain knowledge and wisdom.  From him, absolutely, but we were not created stupid or incompetent.  We were created in HIS image, and he is most certainly neither of those things.

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            1. profile image0
              SirDentposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Yes, but I do not believe Cgenaea was saying we are stupid and incompetent, outside of one sarcastic post.

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              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Oh, not entirely, I'm sure.  smile  What she was actually trying to say could use a bit of clarification.  Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words.

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                1. profile image0
                  SirDentposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Poor choice of words happens way too often.  I am guilty of it many times myself.

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                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Aren't we all?  smile

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        2. EncephaloiDead profile image53
          EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Nothing personal, but don't you think that's exactly how most Christians are portrayed, many of them actually exhibiting those traits?

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          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Unfortunately, most of us are seen just that way...sadly because of statements like the one I originally responded to. sad

            *Edit:  All I can hope to do is show a different example. Which, according to so many of my brothers and sisters is the wrong one.  At the end of the day, I'd rather err on the side of love, compassion, and mercy than judgment.  Let me be judged for that at the end.

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            1. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              No more "I" but the Christ that lives within me. Who cares what man thinks about my intelligence??? I die daily. Truth as Jesus lived it is all that matters. Intelligence is NOT a prerequisite for heaven.

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              1. profile image0
                Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                To whom were you responding? Those words have no meaning in terms of what I said here. Which, incidentally, was in response to someone else.

                Anyway, whether we agree or not, we'll probably never know because we can't really seem to communicate without trouble.  I'm either too smart or too spirit-less to get what you're saying according to what you've posted here.

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                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  You want ME to guess which???

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                  1. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't need you to guess.  You've made very clear what you believe the answer to be.

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  3. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    Thank you, Sir Dent. It is not surprising at all that you clearly got the message.
    Hi Mo. It is not surprising at all that you need clarification. Here it is: The people on this thread who love "knowledge" are walking a tightrope. The bible tells us not to lean to our understanding. Why do you think that is? (Before you run to the "tainted bible" safety)... please let me ask; where then do we turn??? However, if you and your Christian friends have approved that sctipture as authentic, then you know, we just cannot get it (spiritual things) on our own. If "spirit is also not accepted by you (as is the case with at least one of your Christian friends) then who did you say you follow again???
    Knowledge is not bad. Knowledge that does not include the truth as we Christ followers know it is bad.
    I personally have a dumbfounding jolt of ignorance in the face of mathstuffs beyond the division of whole numbers. That theorum from Gobel was tremendously horrifying and I am TOTALLY glad that we dont HAVE to know it.
    So again, just so you are clear this time; knowledge is ok but it cannot be "proof" that God is not there. Or a search for "evidence" of him. The evidence we have already is named faith. If we have faith that God is...what are we "searching for???

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    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Sigh.

      Not that I feel a need to justify myself to you, but I follow Jesus as I've been led by him.  My bible is not tainted.  And I am perfectly content with the evidence I've been given.  Doesn't mean I wear blinders to everything else in the world though. 

      It's sad that you will always be convinced that we disagree.  If I am not using your words and style of presenting them, I must be your enemy.  It is a very lonely road that we each walk.

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      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        So you now say that you had no problem with MY words or the WAY I present them??? So WE agree??? smile
        Maybe we are confused???

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        1. MelissaBarrett profile image58
          MelissaBarrettposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          You likely are... but that's nothing new.

          Mo's words lead people to God, your's drive them away... running... they usually don't stop to grab their shoes.

          See, confusion over.

          Don't bother to respond, don't plan on reading it.

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          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Will someone PLEASE tell me HOW Melissa knows WHERE Mo's words are leading people; and where my words drive them. Is she like sitting off to the side with the "people saved/people driven" records???
            I mean, I know that "they" have problems with the way I use tainted scriptures and holy SPIRIT to divide the scriptures used; but I am very curious as to how many people have been "saved" by Mo's intelligent approaches to understanding the God of Abraham???
            Will Mo's "church" please stand...?

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        2. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          I disagree with calling people incompetent and stupid to make the point that earthly knowledge isn't what believers strive for, but, hey, whatever blows your dress up. You're the evangelist.

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          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Question: How do you think that Sir Dent understood the sarcasm in my "dummy" post while you totally missed it???

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            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              I don't. smile

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              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Exactly wink you have a target and it's got you one-tracked??? Us dummies are smarter than they think. wink

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                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Would you please point out my target?  I didn't know I'd entered a shooting range.  Sigh

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                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    I don't know. It seems you stated that you didn't think about the fact that another party picked up on my sarcasm while you didn't. But you came to tell me how upsetting it was for you to be pegged "stupid" just because you claim to follow Christ. It (my sarcasm, mind you) seemed damaging enough to your ego to speak up and proclaim your intelligence. Now, you didn't KNOW that you were shooting???
                    And SHE said the confusion was over... LOL

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                2. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  And if you're saying I called YOU or anyone else a dummie, you most certainly have me confused with someone else.

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                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    No, you seemed mad at me for referring to those of us who follow Christ as dummies. Are you STILL confused??? I'm the "dummy" caller wink I thought that was the reason you joined the conversation??? My "poor" choice of wording that did NOT appeal to the genius in you???

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                  2. Oztinato profile image74
                    Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    I prefer your discussion to the constant trolling of the more obsessive atheists here.
                    I understand Cgeneas point about leaning on intellectual understanding BUT thats how some of us get there.

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  4. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    Also, there are people who cannot think past 1. God loves them too. Who's image are THEY made in???

    Everything we "know" right now is one experiment away from floundering. But God never fails. He already gave us the truest truth available. All else is simply exercise; and profits little.
    I was a Dean's lister; and my IQ is decent; and standardized test scores were always comfortably above average. Im no dummy... smile but all the "knowledge" in the world is worth ZERO in the kingdom of heaven.

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    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I can shorten that for you and say what it is you really wanted to say.  All the knowledge in the world amounts to nothing without the knowledge of God through Christ.

      See. Didn't call anyone stupid or incompetent.  Didn't imply that only dummies believe.  This is what I refer to when I discuss approach and why yours might occasionally be off putting.  Has nothing to do with my lack of faith.  Hope that's helpful.

      Also, incidentally, if that's what you said, I'd have been the first to agree.

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      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I am slightly put-off by your implication that I speak wrong. I heard NOTHING from you on the subject that prompted my dummy statement. It matters zero whether or not you find "pleasure" in my statements. smile I thought you knew...
        The spirit of God totally understood. Everyone must know that they are welcome to God. Theorums understood or no... knowledge means zero to God. You could KNOW until your brain bursts. It will get you no closer to God. FAITH does that.
        Never reword my statements (thanks anyway) You are likely to not understand enough of what I say.
        Lean not unto... oh nevermind.

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        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Okie doke.  Never mind then.

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  5. profile image0
    Rad Manposted 10 years ago

    It all comes back to that tree of knowledge that the writers of the bible put in there to tell people to not search for knowledge. Knowledge is truth. They wanted their people strong and dumb. Someone with knowledge may have rocked the boat. It's classic manipulation.

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    1. profile image0
      SirDentposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Just to clarify, it was the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

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    2. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I'm going to agree with Sir Dent here.  It is important to make the distinction that it was the knowledge of evil that I think we were meant to be protected from.  I don't think we were ever meant by God to have true knowledge and wisdom withheld from us.  From some who follow him, yes.  They would love to keep us in the dark about many things.  It's convenient for them. 

      Like almost everyone, I've a personal interpretation of that which has come from years of my own questioning and struggle.  Not knowing that there is evil out there can be a blessing to those who just can't bear the pain of it.  We work hard all the time to protect our children from it until we believe they're strong enough to handle it.  My opinion is that the story of Genesis shows God's efforts to protect us from that knowledge as long as he could.  We took it into our own hands for whatever reason and became aware of those things.

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      1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
        Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        But is says "good and evil," not "evil." so that won't wash. big_smile

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        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Maybe not for others.  It washes for me because I'm only interpreting it for myself, not attempting to do so for others.  I'm also not too worried about the tiny ins and outs.  smile

          Knowledge of good doesn't seem such a terrible thing.  I'd say that was already a given, but again, that's just what I see.

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          1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
            Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            How do you know what is "good," unless you also know what is "bad"?

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            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              I wanted to take some time to think on this before I responded.  I don't think people recognize anything as being bad or evil when all of their needs are met and they have never been exposed to anything but plenty (or at least enough).  It often doesn't occur to people when they aren't in need that people who are hungry might steal to eat.  That people who feel threatened might kill to protect themselves.  Until we are hungry, or feel threatened, it doesn't occur to us that there is even a need to fill.  I think God's first people did not know need or fear at his hand until they were somehow convinced that something was lacking.  That's where we veer off track.  Of course, because we have different views as to the existence of God, it's tough to address this from my point of view.  Our failures (or sins in God's eyes) come from a point of need.  If God's first people had trusted him to fill that need, as he had always done, and not felt that they were lacking, perhaps evil may never have entered the picture.  But, I don't think it's as literal or as cut and dried as the way it is presented in Genesis.

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              1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Well, it is much simpler to understand if you take a god out of the picture. Once you understand that we are animals trying to propagate and that "good" and "evil" are simply concepts - they don't exist in reality then it starts to make a lot more sense. Trying to explain our "failures" (whatever they may be) as being sins that did not exist because we trusted god and then they suddenly started to exist when we stopped trusting god is difficult because it is impossible. We need food to survive. If we don't get that food we die. This is the most basic need. And we know that animals - including human-like animals die out when they cannot feed themselves or adapt to changes. This mythical "first people" were who exactly? Homo Neanderthalis? Or some other branch of the evolutionary chain?

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                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  I suppose that without God, it is simpler.  But you know I can't leave him out of the picture.  As far as which first people...I'm not, of course, entirely familiar with evolutionary biology, so from that point, I can't point to who the first people were.  Believe it or not, I have a much better grasp of physics (thanks to you in no small part smile ).  I suppose I would say the first people with whom God chose to interact in our recorded history.

                  *Edit: of course when I say I "can't" leave God out, I mean that I won't or choose not to. To be fair, I could, but to me it would then seem like nothing more than a  conversation of hypotheticals. smile

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                  1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                    Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Maybe you should take a closer look at evolutionary biology? Might give you some insights, because the business of "sin" or "evil" coming in to the world because we turned our backs on god is very, very difficult to incorporate into what we now understand.

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              2. Michael-Milec profile image62
                Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                " Forbidden fruit " was not cause of " sin" neither  " hunger or need" as much as it was/ is " I want " often not needed and more often appropriated without permission or right. " sin"- isn't as much transgression of God's known will , often it is any offense against a principle or standard. Those who love God and know His will, trust and believe usually  follow moral law, in contrast exposing those who chose follow something else...

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                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  How does one even know what it means to want when they are not in need and nothing is withheld from them?

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                  1. Michael-Milec profile image62
                    Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Exactly it would be my question when hearing a "news" someone raped a little girl, then killed her...

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                  2. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    There was one thing withheld.

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                2. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Give us some examples please.

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            2. Oztinato profile image74
              Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Dont entertain Ratheist as he is always using misdirection and deliberate misconstruing. So why respond?

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              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Got plenty of time. Wouldn't want to accidentally be leaving someone in the dark. Got a duty to shed light on the darkness that is opposite what Jesus said.

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                1. profile image0
                  Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  You go girl, don't let him tell you what to do. Keep shedding the light or whatever it is you do.

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                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Good morning, Rad. smile
                    The son's coming out. Enjoy...

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        2. janesix profile image60
          janesixposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          I think the "good and evil" is just a metaphor for duality. You can't have one without the other (possibly). But I'm not sure.

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          1. Oztinato profile image74
            Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Spot on janesix.

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      2. EncephaloiDead profile image53
        EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        If Adam and Eve were the only two people on Earth, what knowledge of evil was God protecting them from considering it would have to be them who would commit the evil?

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        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Eh....can't really answer that successfully. I'm not a literalist, so I don't see it as a literal retelling of creation.  Genesis, I mean. I see it as an allegory of how the world got as messed up and off track as it is.

          I also don't believe we are so messed up that there is no good, or that we've gotten so far off track that the train can't be righted.

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        2. Michael-Milec profile image62
          Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          By now everyone reading the Bible carefully knows that the "evil"- the supernatural-spiritual  presence of the Lucifer has been there at the time of RE- establishing the EARTH for Adamic ,the human race to rule and have dominion, ( a dominion previously owned by the Lucifer before his fall and original, the original inhabitants to that world were totally destroyed by THE FLOOD, - you read about by looking at certain layers of the rocks…) Once the geologists  agree on the certain perfect billions ( ? ) years of the earth existence no one will have problem to accept Adams race living in the " "covenant" (?!) relationship with the Creator-Jehovah-Elohim, at which point we meet the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil.' See, the "EVIL "  presence was  already there ( The creator didn't destroyed former archangel Lucifer after his changed into the rebellious-evil spirit, not even deprived him of his " angelic" power). There the Creator gave His WORD  - in my interpretation : Adam, you will know all you need to rule and have dominion as long as you trust me-believe me. What has happened next  -someone popularly  calls  it "sin ."

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    3. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      So you believe THAT part??? wink you got it twisted though. Do you know Solomon??? WAY smarter than us'n. Smartness given him by God himself. God don't NEED us dumb. He takes us that way if we come as instructed. We just do not know how ignorant we really are. Adam and Eve didn't either. You cannot know your way into heaven; you gotta faith your way in. smile if someone tells you different; they're liars and you should come away from and stop listening to them.

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      1. profile image0
        Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        There is no heaven nor hell. Get in line sheep. They gave you a reward for good behaviour and punishment for bad. Get in line sheep.

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        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          MY shepherd says different. I "bah" for HIS voice. Your voice, I do not know. So you must be coming from the "other" pasture. Please refrain from ordering around other people's sheep!!! smile it is best...

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          1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
            Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Odd. Sheep don't follow a shepherd. The shepherd drives them to the slaughter. What a poor analogy. Lemming would probably work better, but I don't know the noise they are capable of making. Sheep are probably the second dumbest creatures on the planet. big_smile

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            1. Michael-Milec profile image62
              Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Odd, definitely for someone who never lived where the shepherds and sheep live in a place for an extended period...

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              1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Yes - I guess she doesn't know how sheep behave. Guess you don't either do you? Ever seen one in the flesh?

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                1. Michael-Milec profile image62
                  Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Now you have confirmed that you are an expert on guessing. WHy should I answer your last question at all?!

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                  1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                    Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Please don't bother. Not going to be upset at all.

                    ciao wink

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            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              You know nothing about the relationship between sheep and their shepherd? How can that be? Fyi... shepherds care for; protect; lead to good pastures; and very often sleep alongside their sheep. Though sheep are dumb; they know where the bread is buttered.

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              1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Spring lamb time is almost here. I love Spring Lamb. Don't you? You are the one knows nothing. Sheep are a resource to be used. And eaten of course. big_smile

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                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  You have missed the point totally. Or maybe you haven't.
                  Some will follow you. Even the very elect will be fooled.

                  Anybody standing for Mo yet???

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                  1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                    Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    No - I get it just fine thanks. Sheep are herded to the slaughter and you are too uneducated to understand because you refuse to "lean on your own understanding."

                    Learning is hard isn't it? sad

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                  2. profile image0
                    Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Probably not.  I'm neither a pastor nor an evangelist.

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              2. profile image0
                Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Man, you really just don't get it. Sheep are to dumb to know what the plan for them is. All happy thinking the sheep herder cares when all the while the sheep herder is bringing the to good paster to make good meat.

                The writers of bible wanted people uneducated for the same reason. To use them without them knowing they are being used.

                And you are still advocating the same message. Tragic.

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                1. Cgenaea profile image61
                  Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Rad, you are taking the metaphor TOO far TO the left. THEIR shepherd is THERE to protect them from wolves or something. That's where we stop. smile
                  Christ leads to good pasture and he is readying HIS sheep for the king's table; where they will dine WITH him forever. smile Quick get back to your stable!!! The shepherd is coming!!!

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                  1. profile image0
                    Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    It's not that I'm taking it to far, it's just that I'm thinking.

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  6. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    Man shall not live by bread alone. So, there is not a sandwich in the world that can take the place of the words of God. Where are his words found???
    I will not stand before him to say, Lord, I just could not believe that book. It was so dirty. He may say, "Well there is no way you could have accepted the part about my son."
    When you think about it; why believe just two or three sections of the book. If some is just wrong; how on Earth can ANY of it be accepted?
    No fighting please smile
    I just would REALLY like to know how we separate good scripture from the throw away parts??? It's mind boggling to see/hear "yess I loves me some Jesus" when you learned of him from a "fake" and/or unreliable source.

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    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      You see John Chapter 6 as metaphor.  I see Genesis as allegory/metaphor.  It's okay for you but not for me.  You insist that there is no need for anyone to correct how YOU see/interpret scripture.  The same holds true for me. 

      And for the last time, I do not see anything in scripture as fake or unreliable no matter how many times you claim it to be so.  I feel no further need to explain my take on scripture to you only for you to pervert it into whatever you feel best makes me look bad.

      Toodles.

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      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        I do not see John 6 as metaphor. Where did you get that??? He fed 5000 + people with blessed increase of one meal.
        I wish to see things as you do so that I may understand better. What is Genesis metaphor for??? Allegory???

        When we made up a long time ago: I thought we was cool. But I have noticed that you tread differently with me; or that you may not be as comfortable. We have no "problems" we are just different.  Spirit is important to me and it must have been to God because he sent it. He told us he would. But I am secure in that. I will never yell, "ouch" because you deny the spirit of God. Why do you???
        I love you and Melissa too. I got no beef with you ladies. We wrestle not against Genaea, or Mo, or Melissa, or Righteous Atheist. It's deeper.
        Where's Rad??? Sorry Man!!! I love you too. smile

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        1. profile image0
          Rad Manposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Busy, trying to make a living. Thanks for the kind words. Right back at you.

          replyreport
          1. profile image0
            Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Uh, we're WAY more important than food and electricity and shelter and all that crap.  C'mon, man! wink

            replyreport
        2. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          John 6 is about communion, not the loaves and fishes.  You yourself told me that it was metaphorical when I brought it up as a significant doctrinal difference between the Catholic and Protestant denominations. 

          Physically, scientifically and according to all natural laws, Genesis couldn't have happened literally.  BUT, that makes it no less true and takes nothing away from the truth of the story of the fall, if you see what I mean. I don't yell ouch.  I simply don't agree.  That's it.  And when I bring up a point of contention, you jump to me being wounded or stung or on the defensive, or offensive, or jumping on you as part of the mean, nasty gang.  Frankly, it drives me batty.  smile

          We ARE just different, Genaea.  That's all.  My God is leading me to truth on a path no less rocky and no less beautiful than yours.  You just lose me whenever you talk about being alone on that path.  You aren't.  You may just be farther ahead (or behind) than the rest of us.  Leave it at that.  Offer love - not preaching.  Offer love - not teaching.  Offer love - not judgment.  Offer love - not defense of a God who is bigger than the universe and perfectly capable of defending himself. 

          That's all.  I never mean to offend, confuse, or hurt your feelings.  I really think our beliefs are SO much more similar than you think.  It's our method of discussing them that differs and I think that puts up walls that are difficult for both of us to scale sometimes.

          smile

          replyreport
          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Not me. The loaves and fish story to me was a miracle meal to feed hungry people who had listened to Jesus all day. Not communion; not metaphor or allegory. Lunch!!! smile I have never deeply thought over that story because I took it at face value. Always have.
            No, Genesis could not have naturally happened. It goes against all that Mrs. Academia taught. smile but we are speaking of God who can do anything. And DID shape two people that he put in a beautiful place with one restriction.
            I have no fear of people jumping on me. I hold my own securely with the spirit of the Lord as my shield. Now I do remember being defended a time or two when it appeared to others that I may be drowning in a sea of opposition from every side. But I never feel overwhelmed. I know and am convinced about what I say. I am not shaken by disbelief or being referred to as loony or slow. Greater is he that is in me. smile

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            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              I've never referred to you as either loony or slow.  But, take a look at John Chapter 6.  I'm not arguing that you're wrong, but I'm just pointing out that this particular chapter is not about the loaves and fishes.  It's actually about communion (eating the flesh of the son of man and drinking his blood).  We might just be thinking of two different passages.

              My issue has never really been your message.  Ever.  Just the presentation of it.  I don't think you're stupid, or slow, or loony.  Any more than the rest of us...lol

              smile

              replyreport
              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Ok, I am not intelligent enough to import this pic. smile or maybe i dont care enough to figure it out.
                MY John 6 in Nelson KJV is entitled "Five Loaves and Two Fishes." Please tell me what your John 6 in your bible is entitled. Throw in the version too. Thanks

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                1. profile image0
                  Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  I'm referring to John 6:48-60.

                  The King James Bible online shows no title for the chapter.  The beginning is indeed regarding the multiplication of loaves and fishes.  Those verses refer to something else.  Here is a link if you prefer to look at it yourself.  In the past, you have said that you believe these verses to be metaphorical.  By claiming it to be a hard teaching, you see that many of the original believers did as well, and chose to leave Jesus.  BUT, he did not explain it away and a metaphor or parable.  He simply reiterated his original words.

                  http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/John-Chapter-6/

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                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    The scripture about eating Jesus was indeed metaphor. As is the admonishment to die daily or gouge out your sinful eyes. For if everyone who loved him took a microscopic section; he would be no more. Does that make sense??? He'd be all consumed and there'd be none for us to chew by now. Yes??? Jesus meant to "digest" that that came from him.this "food" and "water" will take you the rest of your life.

                    replyreport
                2. Michael-Milec profile image62
                  Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  There are so many different editions and translations of the bible, and in the English language probably the most different ones with " additional " connoting. While the original NT Greek text, particularly one my Greek born brother by the Lord gave  to me " Concordant Greek Text " is printed in CAPITAL letters, each book from the  very " first " verse to the very last word is like O N E   loooong sentence.  ( Its all greek to me) . The original version didn't have Jesus' words in red edition " It is the spirit that is life-giving; the flesh doesn't help. The words which I have spoken to you ARE  SPIRIT and  ARE LIFE.' ( John 6:63) TNT

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                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Jesus said his words are spirit and life. smile how can we receive what he says if we dont accept spirit??? Is it possible?
                    Paul said, ICor 2
                    4 and my speech and preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
                    Some dont accept Paul's message. I cannot positively say how God feels about it. Paul was chosen...if we believe the bible. I don't think God likes disagreement with him.

                    replyreport
  7. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    It kinda goes like this:
    Well, Genaea, I have xyz opinion. I just do it that way for whatever reason I fancy and it just works out better for me because xyz seems right to me.

    And then I say, well the bible says zyx. It is what rings true for me because the bible is the ultimate truth to me.

    Then I hear, well I never!!! You old judgmental creepy crawlin dummy!!! How dare you tell me what the scriptures say when I just told you what I think? You suck and you probably dont know nothin anyway!!! $#@!!

    But what else can I expect??? The messenger is ALWAYS murdered. smile my remedy was that I killed myself before speaking. And dead is dead. Who can hurt a dead man??? wink it's like Billy Dee's Colt 45

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    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Hmm.

      I guess my confusion lies then in the fact that I would never speak that way to anyone.  I don't accept the interpretation that I fancy.  I usually accept the interpretation that I believe makes the most sense in terms of who God has revealed himself to be in scripture and through Christ.  Apparently, we differ in that interpretation, which makes sense given that we are indeed two different people with multiple different life experiences.  My biggest struggle is now and has always been obedience.  THAT'S where God is the most stern with me.  I don't know what your biggest struggle has been, and it's none of my business, but I am in general as obedient to scripture as I can possibly be to both scripture, and my spiritual leaders in God's church.  And submit more often than you may think to my brothers and sisters. 

      I really think there may a HUGE issue with what we see when people talk to us here.  It is NOT in my nature to use insulting or demeaning language when I speak to people, so this paragraph of explanation may point to others here, but not to me.

      replyreport
      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        We all have a problem with obedience; rest your mind in Jesus alone. Meaning he is first. Now, if we interpret differently there. We have a problem.
        As for you not being responsible for any disrespectful slur... Pastor said, "eat the fish, and throw the bones away." Meaning. glean what you can. If it dont apply, toss.
        My points rub you the wrong way generally. Have you ever wondered why? What I speak is always biblical. It is my voice on these pages. It all comes from scripture with funny here or there. If you say it is my delivery; then enjoy the voice of Melissa??? I wonder how...
        My struggle is just about everything else. smile I got lots of struggles. But truth I know. Humble I intend to be/stay. My relationship with God is what perfects me in HIS eyes. I cannot do that alone.

        replyreport
        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Again, not your words or your points that rub me the wrong way, Genaea.  It's the judgmental TONE and sanctimonious DELIVERY of those words.  I don't believe we are going to make it over this hurdle without sitting down over coffee or something some day.  I'm not saying sugar coat anything.  I'm not saying throw the words of scripture away.  Sometimes I say things in agreement with you, but because (literally) I've chosen different words, you get combative and ''call me out.''  That's all.

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          1. Dr Lamb profile image55
            Dr Lambposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You as well. Who da thunk?

            replyreport
            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Me as well what?  I'm so confused.  Play nice with me, man!  I'm a blond,

              big_smile

              replyreport
              1. Dr Lamb profile image55
                Dr Lambposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                She calls you out even when you are agreeing with her. That's why her religion causes so many fights!!!

                replyreport
          2. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Remember? It seems we talked about style of delivery being a non-factor yesterday. Truth is truth. We just say different stuff sometimes. And I back what I say up with scripture.
            I am one who takes a bunch of heat for imperfection of holystuff; knowledge of bible college stuff; or math stuff; or science stuff. BIBLEstuff, I know. It is the knowledge of truth that makes us free. All my imperfections dont count. Truth does.
            Sanctimonious position on my part is fabricated. Judmental tone is fabricated at the same plant. I'm neither. Biblical scripture IS judgmental. So:
            Genaea+bible scripture=judgmental. X+bible scripture=judgmental. See???
            I don't say MY words. If I did...we'd all be at the beach with bikinis (not Rad smile ) and drinks in hand. No bible needed. Scripture shows me ME too. (And it makes me sad sometimes)
            I kill me daily. So that Christ may shine...

            When times get better, I'd LOVE to do coffee (or something) with you all; just chillin'. smile my treat...
            Our face-to-face personalities would probably not clash so much.  Our music preferences would probably be similar too. I just shun Country, Blues, and Classical. No FUN rhythms at all... I'm a mover. smile
            White flag; still no sugar.

            replyreport
            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              In that case, peace.  big_smile

              I do understand where you're coming from.  We're just different in that regard...in how we present what we believe the truth of the gospel to be.  Let's keep moving on the journey.  We may meet up every now and then at a place of peace.

              I do love coffee....and there's a teeny tiny place in Logan Square that makes absolutely killer Italian Ice.  If I get back to Chicago anytime soon, I'll look you up.

              replyreport
              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                I'm there!!!
                anytime smile

                replyreport
        2. EncephaloiDead profile image53
          EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Interesting how the evangelist wannabee (Evangebee) starts out their sermon by making sure we have all tossed out our own problems and surgically attached to the side of our heads their personal problems. How else can they justify their superiority of righteousness without lowering us to their levels and standards, just below their soapboxes.

          Since they have a problem with obedience, then we must have a problem with obedience. The sun also rises and sets on them, just not anyone else.

          It seems the problem is self-inflicted, that of being self-absorbed and self-centered, incapable of looking past their eyelashes to understand the world does not revolve around them nor is populated with copies of them.

          replyreport
          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Ju have ur coffee today???

            replyreport
          2. Oztinato profile image74
            Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            What did I miss? Has the atheist feeding frenzy stopped yet?
            .....eer...NOPE!
            Its an ugly thing, an atheist feeding frenzy.

            replyreport
          3. Oztinato profile image74
            Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            It looks like Ratheist has finally said ciao so how about you Encephalitis?
            Time you said Ciao now!

            replyreport
            1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
              Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              I said ciao because you said you were leaving and not going to respond. And you said goodbye, but here you are still trolling. Let me guess - Christian? wink

              replyreport
              1. Oztinato profile image74
                Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Cmon I am inviting the rabid atheists to leave. You dont respond to logic or science or reason. You constantly misconstrue. Its hypocrisy. Get off. I have tried to talk Nerd to you rabid types but you prefer insults. So accept some too. Learn to receive not just to give. You know I am multi faith. On behalf of reason good manners and faith bug off or use the logic Godel gave you.

                replyreport
                1. Righteous Atheist profile image60
                  Righteous Atheistposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  If you offered logic, science and reason - I would respond with the same. Logic, science and reason are pretty clear on the absence of a god. All you have offered is a poorly constructed, failed argument which you obviously don't understand.How can you be multi faith? The Muslims think the Christians burn in hell and vice versa. lol

                  replyreport
                  1. Cgenaea profile image61
                    Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    Ah... now I see our problem AGAIN.
                    Spirit/ logic & reason are two or more different planes! wink
                    A man cannot be born of a virgin scientifically. Yet, Jesus came. Scientifically, a man cannot rise after 3days of death. Yet...
                    Jesus is Spiritual. Godel is using man's logic; when Spirit is where God is.
                    You just can't mix the two. No cigar on the theorum. It aint biblical. Multi-faith aint either. But I still love you lots.
                    smile see???

                    replyreport
                  2. Oztinato profile image74
                    Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                    RAtheist
                    Try reading Hawking's free online essay titled "Godel and the end of Physics": then compare this to your irrational disregard for the Godel "God theorem".
                    In other words how can I use logic and reason to dishonest people who both claim to want it,  that but who don't listen to logic and reason?
                    PS does the word "online sock puppet" mean anything to you?

                    replyreport
            2. Cgenaea profile image61
              Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Its EncephlioDead or ED for short. Try notto swell up what Iis dead. Lol...
              (Ok, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet)

              replyreport
  8. Cgenaea profile image61
    Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

    Yes. Thomas is a good example. Remember he allowed himself to be shown. He did not turn around and say, "I aint puttn my finger in there!" You gon have to show ME something else!" We have to take it as it comes.
    Jesus' statement to Thomas was; blessed are they...I know you know.
    No, Thomas was not doomed for his faithlessness. He allowed himself to be convinced that Jesus was really there. Now what would Jesus have said to him if he STILL did not believe once having proof??? If he had been convinced and THEN needed MORE "proof"??? There are many scriptures to answer these questions.
    Hot or cold.

    replyreport
    1. profile image0
      Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I know what you mean.  I liken it to a person asking a question, getting an answer, and then thinking of something else they meant to ask in the beginning, but didn't.  Faith is sure if you go to its author for answers.  On that we agree completely.  smile It's important to distinguish between someone looking for real answers and looking for a way around real answers they don't particularly care for.  smile I think that's the distinction you might actually be speaking of.  It might just not be heard completely by other brothers and sisters.  Am I close?

      replyreport
      1. Cgenaea profile image61
        Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        Kind of. The answer is the answer whether we care for it or not. Questions we all have. But giving God reign over the ques/answer session is required. When we do not understand or have a question (question is different from doubt) we leave it at the altar. We cannot go to ungodly counsel instead. There is NOTHING God-geared at the university. PhD's are also inadequate unless GOD precedes those letters.
        Some things will not be answered. God has secrets known to no man. However we must trust him alone still.

        replyreport
        1. profile image0
          Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Okay.  I think we are starting to understand each other on this point. smile

          replyreport
          1. Cgenaea profile image61
            Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            I just KNEW we could do it! smile

            replyreport
            1. profile image0
              Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

              Stranger things HAVE been known to happen. wink

              replyreport
              1. Cgenaea profile image61
                Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                Yeah, I guess it's not so strange. Really hoping for that italian ice. smile

                replyreport
  9. ideabump profile image80
    ideabumpposted 10 years ago

    Usage of 'we, our, us" for first person is common in middle eastern languages, it shows greatness and superiority. It's also a way to remove any attribution of gender. This use of language may have been formed by religious scriptures during the history of mankind. I think that "our image" could be thought  the same way.

    replyreport
    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Good thought. Worth consideration in my opinion.

      replyreport
  10. profile image0
    Motown2Chitownposted 10 years ago

    I promise that I will indeed look you up if I get back to the city.  smile My husband and I left in 2011.  Health issues and such took us back to my hometown, then finally the Midwest winters took us down and we came back to Florida. If we could move Florida weather to Chicago, we'd be back in a minute. He's also said that if we could afford it, he'd turn us into snow birds.

    replyreport
    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Cold may be breaking soon. This was a rough one; as you probably know. Record breaking...
      I tried GA for a year and the weather did NOT disappoint. smile but, I'm back. I hope to get to tour them all soon. Not interested in nothing prone to tropical "stuff" them storms get fierce from what I hear.
      But yeah. I am in for Logan Sq when/if you come. smile

      replyreport
      1. profile image0
        Motown2Chitownposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        Where we live in FL is pretty much just south GA. smile

        I really liked Logan Square.  The houses and apartments were so cool.  Classics.  We lived on the NW side of the city...little farther west and south of Portage Park.

        replyreport
        1. Cgenaea profile image61
          Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Right, I figured West somewhere. I'm not familiar with West. Only been a few times.  All other sides I know. But I will find it if the moment arises.

          replyreport
  11. profile image52
    wayne92587posted 10 years ago

    God incarnate has feet.
    God that is not incarnate does not have feet.

    replyreport
    1. Cgenaea profile image61
      Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      To me, we are his feet. And since God is Spirit, uh...we are his feet wink So, I agree.

      replyreport
      1. Oztinato profile image74
        Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

        Cgenea,
        as this is your discussion I feel you should know I have identified what is called an online atheist 'sock puppet" in this discussion. I am waiting for the moderators to remove him; and will let you know the result.

        replyreport
    2. Oztinato profile image74
      Oztinatoposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Well put Wayne.

      replyreport
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