Science and scientists are like children who tear and analyze the common works of the Maker, and then wonder that Evolution or Big Bang accidentally assembled all those atoms into masterpieces of Art and Engineering combined (Think of- the human body, and animal, bird and how they have been masterfully created and engineered, the sky, the cosmos itself with all its incredible laws promoting and sustaining life.
Covert yourself to embrace both God the Holy Spirit, and His Son Jesus the Christ, and get everlasting life, dear friends.
Nice words. Can you back them up with evidence, or are they just more opinions from someone wanting to live forever?
Why do you need evidence? And what kind of evidence would satisfy you?
Without evidence we have no knowledge. And while guesses and desires are enough for some to live their life around, it is insufficient for those wishing to KNOW before acting.
How about god show himself?
"Without evidence we have no knowledge."
That is not how life really is. You may know something to be perfectly true, that something exists - but, you may not 'prove' it to others.
There are innumerable instances where we face this type of situations.
I must believe this without question because someone simply said it was true without a shred of evidence or anything to back it up. Wow! Quite a concept! But apparently it worked on you! I want to meet the person who got you all screwed up.
If you can prove it to yourself, you can prove it to others.
If you canNOT prove it to others, you canNOT prove it to yourself.
If you canNOT prove it to yourself, you have no knowledge; only opinion and belief.
"Without evidence we have no knowledge."/"If you canNOT prove it to others, you canNOT prove it to yourself. "
Those are false statements. Things like love, hatred, 'may' not be shown and proved to others who are not related to the connecting environments (i.e., they never met the persons involved in the love and hate relationships, before. But, that love and that hatred nevertheless exists, and are known to the persons involved.
You can't prove to others things and events that came across or happened to you, and while you were the only witness. But you have the knowledge of those things and events.
You may not prove to a child if a cunning adult is cheating and fooling him/her. But you might have the full knowledge of it.
The list goes on.
But love/hate relationships ARE shown, by the actions the emotions produce.
Past events; forensic science is all just bushwah then, and our courts a sham as no jury can every know "beyond a reasonable doubt" what happened. Somehow I don't think the individuals involved would agree. Plus, of course, you maintain that your god is in existence right now, as opposed to past history only, but still cannot show it.
True, a child can be fooled. Are you saying I am a child, unable to reason or comprehend? Or that you are, and have been taken in by adults with lies?
"But love/hate relationships ARE shown, by the actions the emotions produce."
Please explain what you mean by that statement. Because that is a very interesting statement. Your other statements are quite negligible.
"Science and scientists are like children who tear and analyze the common works of the Maker" Yet if one of us science believing people were to say "Christianity and Christians are like children, just naive people believing a fairytale book" it would have been considered a personal attack. Why in the world would you come to a forum and start a thread to tell people "Covert yourself to embrace both God the Holy Spirit, and His Son Jesus the Christ,"? Why do you expect others to convert because YOU believe? And what makes you think out of all the religions Christianity is even the right religion for people to convert to?
Just makes no sense to me.
The spiritual is a reality, and 'it' doesn't depend on any religion. Religions are mere a human effort to interpret the spiritual. But it needs a little training before one can finally begin to understand what this 'spiritual' really is.
When I talk about the 'Holy Spirit' or God - I mean this ultimate spiritual reality which is the origin of the physical cosmos, and the miracle that is life.
Some might not believe in Jesus. That's ok. They might conclude that Jesus is a fictitious character. But it's a good fictitious character - a metaphor for goodness and righteousness.
"When I talk about the 'Holy Spirit' or God - I mean this ultimate spiritual reality which is the origin of the physical cosmos, and the miracle that is life."
Then you speak of a myth, false to fact, because there IS no "spiritual reality" which is the origin of the cosmos and, defining "miracle" as an even that violates natural law, life is not a miracle at all.
Again, the spiritual (whatever you mean by that) is real to those who intuit it is real.
It is a subjectivity. That means everyone has an equally valid perception of it even if they perceive it to be absent.
We definitely see an "effect" of our amazing universe. We know it had a beginning from what science tells us. We know that whatever was the cause HAS to be sufficient for the effect and all that is within it, that we see. So we need to not rule anything out in advance before considering all options that have been posed as a possibility, unless we are too biased to consider ALL possibilities that could be sufficient as a cause.
So you believe that all science is bogus and that all scientists are incorrect, or just pertaining to the beginnings of the universe?
Strangely enough, all other religions with all different gods and goddesses say the same thing.
I don't think that is so strange really. It would be strange though if they could all be correct because it would be illogical.
God is no fantasy. It is the only true ultimate reality. What we call 'reality', physical and scientific, has its basis on this spiritual reality, the Holy Spirit.
You can deny it, reject it like it's all bogus nonsense that some people come up with in their leisure. Well, God has given you that freewill to choose to think so
And please don't ask for evidence, because you will never get 'your type of evidence' while dealing with these spiritual things. The rules that apply to the world of physics, evaporate like the way a child's fantasy evaporates before the harsh realities of the world.
It's a different play, guys.
That's odd, physics actually explains the "harsh realities of the world" extremely well. It is the so-called "spiritual things" from the imaginations of believers that evaporate before physics.
Much can be said on that, dear fellow, much can be said...
That we feel pain, cry over a lost loved one, that we love - yes, all these can be masterfully explained by physics.
Strawman fallacy. Why do you believers constantly trot out strawman fallacies? They are invalid as arguments.
Yes, science can explain emotions, maybe not physics, but biology can.
If you say that god is the ultimate reality, then it should be demonstrable in reality - not in some unknown "spirit" realm. Either your god is in reality, where it is demonstrable, or it is not.
You refuse to supply evidence, likely because you don't have any. yet you say god is the ultimate reality. That's a contradiction.
Additionally - I don't really think you understand evolution. Or science. Or Physics. Or cosmology, for that matter.
You seem to understand God very well. And it seems you are very willing to admit that.
No, I understand religion/Christianity very well. I used to be a Christian. I'm not one anymore.
If it is not a matter of evidence, it is a matter of intuition. In which case my intuition that God does not exist is just as good as your intuition that your specific god does exist.
I should have read this response before responding to the other response. As far as differing intuitions, if that is all that is offered up then yes, one view is as good as another. The other answer does kind of apply still, that this isn't a way though, to determine which is view is wrong, or if both are wrong. Other things are needed, to know that or make a reasonably informed decision if a person is going for more than simple faith and believing.
Oceans… you are completely and utterly right.
Two opposing views, both based on intuition. One says rocks and float in mid are the other says they cannot. The one making the positive claim has to supply evidence to the one saying that he is wrong.
So, you and others are claiming God exist based on intuition, you need to supply the evidence that convinces us.
The Great Spirit, the Holy Spirit, can be demonstrated. But, it requires a different setup than the one that we have been conditioned to.
Then demonstrate it. Go ahead. We'll wait.
Through paypal or visa? Or would you prefer the Western Union Money Transfer?
You're the one that says that the holy spirit can be demonstrated. You tell me.
This spiritual thing is something very real. More basic and more real, than the physical.
But, we already know that is simply not true. We can easily show the physical (like gravity) to every person on the planet and they will all understand and agree.
If "spiritual things" are more real than gravity, you should have no problem whatsoever showing them to everyone on the planet.
But, of course, we know you can't.
It requires a bit training to grasp the spiritual. That's it. And there is more to it.
We already know that is not true. The revealing of hard evidence does not require training. Try again.
Try that on a blind person. Try to *show* him/her a 'hard evidence'. With all the science on earth, try to convince a blind person that the stars in the sky indeed exist.
Or try to make a deaf person understand, that the birds in the morning make beautiful sounds.
You mean, if I take the person outside in the daytime so they can feel the warmth of the Sun on their faces, that is not hard evidence stars exist?
You mean, if I take the person and show them the happy faces of people who are watching birds sing, they might never understand it is a result of the birds beautiful sounds? Do crows make beautiful sounds? Can we show the faces of people listening to crows squawk and understand crows don't make the same sounds as the other birds?
Seriously, if this is the best argument you can muster, then we're done here. So elementary and fallacious in magnitude, it's downright silly.
Let's not discount the fact there are indeed stars and birds, which not only have been shown to exist, but have been carefully observed, categorized and understood in some detail.
Coincidentally, this is the very same kind of hard evidence we would like to see from you, but instead are receiving only lame excuses.
I said the stars that show up at the night sky. Not the sun. Try again. Besides, I have decided not to touch the rest of it. Seemed like unneeded.
You are doing me a favor, by nearly decoding evidences for God, Christ and Christianity.
It certainly does appear you have absolutely nothing to offer in the form of any hard evidence, just more lame excuses.
FYI, the sun is a star.
Try to convince a blind person that the sun is a star.
Are you claiming then that you have a sixth sense, not available to anyone else, that you use to detect the supernatural? Something beyond imagination?
It's like asking: 'Do we all have eyes?'
Of course, some do not.
Ah. Where is this sense located? What group of cells controls it and gives the sensory impressions? Which nerves connect it to the brain tissue? What is it detecting - what force or energy and what mechanical devices will detect the same force/energy?
But, we do have eyes, or else we wouldn't be asking you to show your evidence.
Perhaps the analogy would be better served by pointing out most blind folks do have eyes. Considering the "eyes to see" description from scripture, it would imply a voluntary blindness. Everyone has the same evidences, but some are "willingly ignorant," yet this means all are without excuse. Nothing you can say will persuade those who do not clearly see by what God has provided with creation. What argument could be more persuasive than that which they have already discounted?
The fact is that what we clearly see are the results of the physical laws and evolution over millions of years, and no indication of gods or creation.
Show us this god and show us the world was created by this god?
The argument for god and creation hasn't really been discounted because the argument itself has yet to be made.
That's the thing. If we were shown persuasive evidence we would be persuaded. That has simply never happened. Discounting a whole group of people who just think differently than you as willfully ignorant or blind is not going to enhance future conversations in which we may be persuaded. Can you imagine the outrage if someone were to say, for example, all religious people are stupid? I don't think that's true, and I know many intelligent people from many different religions, but if I made a point of saying that, how many people would want to actually talk to me?
I know you know better than that, Berean.
Hello Julie. I've been away from HP for a bit. How have you been?
First, I never said they were stupid. Far from it, as my experience indicates those who embrace these views are likely to be smart, or at very least fancy themselves to be bright.
Second, although you would never know it based on most churches these days, (due to it failing the marketability test required to successfully promote a hugely successful church social club or business), the view I articulated is quite biblical.
Third, how exactly does this differ from your view of those who do not embrace Scientism, (and yet we still converse)?
Fourth, I have mentioned many times I have no illusion or aspiration regarding persuading you. I often enjoy the discussion, but recognize the chance either of us will walk away with a changed view is very slim indeed. In fact, that was in part the point of my post which sparked your response.
Wow, I didn't actually think your posts could get any sillier.
So we are back at 'my subjective feeling is that I have special powers that allow me to feel God' versus 'my subjective feeling is that some people are --usually benignly--delusional'.
Both are conclusions of equal objective value.
You could in fact convince a blind person that the sun is not a star. You could I guess if you really wanted to isolate them from reality and convince them that rainbow flow out of stars. That's the thing about humans, we trust others and we sometimes don't know when we've been lied to. So when someone tells us stuff that they have no evidence for we should be sceptical. So you go and convince blind people that God exists.
There are obviously hard evidences that 'can' prove that the Almighty Creator God indeed 'exists' (i.e., that it's not a piece of imagination or wild fantasy of some mad people).
But, as I said earlier, and as you are constantly overlooking my point - it does not come in the form that we are used to (and have been brainwashed with).
There is hard evidence, but not that we can understand.
Translation - no there is no evidence.
Well, as I said earlier - there are such 'hard evidences', but I can't paypal them.
"shrug" I think we've all recognized the value of "Yes, I have evidence but can't show it to you".
The spiritual (and the Almighty Creator God Spirit) can't be demonstrated over the internet. Not very successfully, at-least. Just as people can't love over the internet. Not very successfully, at-least.
It requires the direct, physical world as the setup. Because that's how God designed this whole thing to be.
[Edit: I've lost the 'reply button', so I think I might answer 'Righteous Atheist' here. Well, you know, the seed has been already sown, and you're demanding the fruits to be delivered to you in five minutes. And you're looking for the tree right now.]
[Edit 2: Well, 'Righteous Atheist', the spiritual isn't fairytale. It exists - and is more immediate and more real than the physical.]
If that were true you would be out there proving your claims in person instead of on the internet. Never seen in in reality myself and I have spoken to a lot of preachers.
Untrue. There are no fruits - be honest. You signed up here specifically to preach at us and then complained that the "evidence" you have cannot be shared on the internet and must be shared in the real world.
Yet, another fraudulent thread about religion.
Yet, so far, you have only shown it be little more than a piece of imagination.
Then, it is not hard evidence and you have nothing to show. Got anything else?
We've already establish that this is all just your intuition. My intuition disagrees. That's pretty much the end of that sort of discussion. Unless you are somehow just "better" person than me and thus I have to believe you because of your obvious superiority.
Hang tough, God's Not Dead, and many know He is their ultimate reality. However, the fact remains, we're free to choose our belief's and basis for them. He allows it, all the time, He lets us choose. I choose God, but, that's my personal choice, and I will stand in His grace as I choose Him. I will not argue His existence, as He needs not for me to do so, nonetheless I will support His existence and come along side those who try to glorify His purpose. Hoping, I'm allowed my glorification of Him as well. Ultimately, my job is not to judge or combat or argue, but rather to love. I don't need to prove that God is Love, I just need to love as He loves. So blessings to all of you as you discuss, remember compassion for differences, understanding, and truth. Your truth is your choice, but remember the love. It's the simplest of things that defines us as human, as opposed to animals, sometimes it's simply that we have thumbs, I believe we have so much more to our reality. Thanks for allowing me my choice, I will surely allow all of you the same, loving you just as I am, humanly flawed, and eager to reunite with my Father one day, soon and very soon. Blessings
That is a nice followup, Kathy. *Hugs* (If you allow it!)
I have a once-in-a-lifetime deal for you! I own many bridges across the country and the wife says I need to get rid of a few because she's tired of the hording. I'm offering you a deal on one of my bridges that connects Brooklyn to Manhattan Island. It's yours for $10,000! It's a very busy bridge and you can even make some serious money for you or your church by setting up a toll booth. I would of done that myself, but I'm too busy with my other hobby, collecting national parks.
Hugs are great back at ya and God Bless
But truth is not a matter of choice any more than your truth is different than mine. Truth is truth, whether believed or not.
Personal perception of truth, now - that's what we call belief in those cases where it cannot be shown to be real. And that's where mankind differs from each other, with many loudly claiming that their belief is equal to truth - equal without needing proof because they want very badly for it to be so and thus it must be.
Here is a really good spiritual teacher. (I'm not saying that his teachings and teaching method are perfect; but it comes closest to what I'm talking about.):-
1) Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle
2) quotes - http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho … tolle.html
3) YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/user/EckhartTeachings
If you want ME to talk about these things publicly (the way Eckhart is doing), and demonstrate what I've conveyed here - you would have to wait a bit. That might be the last day of atheism.
Please feel free to demonstrate. Personally - I think you are being dishonest about being able to do so.
Eckhart Tolle is an impressive guy. He even scams Oprah!
The evidence is all around us. God is in the macrocosm and the microcosm of all that exists.
He is?! Yes, I'm being incredibly sarcastic. By the way, that's not evidence because you have nothing to back that up. Simply making something up doesn't cut it.
Once again, ladies and gentlemen, we're here on another bridge- to-nowhere thread, this time called, God is the ULTIMATE Reality. When asked for evidence, God shet thinks that by posting a couple links advertising a bigger BS artist is sufficient evidence for everyone to drop to their knees and pray to the ULTIMATE sky daddy. When asked for a single piece of evidence, they point to the Bible, which is a ripoff of earlier religions and beliefs, or they point to a better known snake oil salesman who then points to another snake oil salesman. This goes on and on till the last man standing points to the Bible. All because the Bible says it's true! Of course this is a religious thread, what do you expect?
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