The True Nature of SIN

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   Some say SIN is an act of willful disobedience. However, we use our will for good or bad, relative to some type of positive outcome. Sometimes we make mistakes out of ignorance. We had no idea the results would be so terrible. Learning from our mistakes is what happens in this school of hard knocks called life. When people go against the agreed upon codes of moral conduct, what is their motivation: the urge to be willfully disobedient for the sake of itself… or for the sake of some form of goodness they want for themselves? In this case, is disobedience committed for the sake of being disobedient?? No, for some form of expected positive results. To me, sin occurs from being ignorant of the actual devastating consequences one's actions will bring about.
   
   Q. If we are born in an ignorant state of consciousness, (born in sin i.e. of the flesh) how do we learn how to not make mistakes without making them them first?
   
   (Of course, wise souls will read scripture and determine for themselves that the rules of right will conduct help them avoid negative consequences. Wise souls also learn from the mistakes of others. We all recognize a person who lives in a perpetual state of making mistakes. They really do not think the mistakes are mistakes, I guess. Are they bad people or just really misguided as to what will make them truly happy? Why they do not learn from their mistakes is a mystery to me.)
   
   (So, don't we get a pass for being human?)

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      AshtonFireflyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting take on the concept of sin. Never heard it quite explained this way by a believer before.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         For me, psychological issues and spiritual issues should be compatible...

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            AshtonFireflyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Seems reasonable.

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      EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      But, if sins are explained in a holy book with the resulting consequences of willfully disobeying them, then there is no ignorance of those consequences.
      
      
      
      We listen to those who have already made the same mistakes.
      
      
      
      There are words to describe people who knowingly make the same mistakes over and over.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Snip< But, if sins are explained in a holy book with the resulting consequences of willfully disobeying them, then there is no ignorance of those consequences.> Snip
         
         Well, yes. You know, many Christians and secular humanists, who know better, do things they know they shouldn't do. Cuz why? Because they don't read the Bible much.
         
         My point really is this. In the end, the consequences of our actions become our punishments. For instance, if we do things in secret, thinking no one will find out, (so who could it hurt,) the result is egg on our face. (In other words, somewhere down the line, deeds done in secret are usually discovered in the light of day and you have caused yourself and others suffering you never intended.) If you kill by a gun, your karma (spiritual law of justice) will cause you to be killed by a gun. (Maybe not even in the same lifetime the deed was committed, but the next.) If you do evil things and do not cultivate happiness and peace, you will take that energy with you into the astral realm after death. If you cultivate a caring nature, you will earn many friends and die a peaceful death. (You will sleep happily until next time. BTW, you get a brand new body and nothing will be the same as it was the previous lifetime.) So heaven or hell is according to how we are and what we do. Its all in our hands. Its all according to our will.
         TWISI

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            Michael Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            The Creator is ruling the universe by established principles. He let the human know His will when the Holy Spirit- Himself supplied the written Word. Nothing will nor can be changed. The moment the master of the Universe changes His word, he would stop existing - and a chaos but destruction -- no, no this is silly . It won't happen as won't  happen any of " our "  TWISI. DO you see my point? Our duty is to know what is right and  to do it. Let me disappoint you by saying God isn't a Christian neither is Christ a Christian according to - by a man established tradition. By this tradition a theory tolerates Christian's  " secret" thinking no one will find out..."- the God knows everything, no secrets for Him, neither a karma practice. All perspective of a sinner changes when one makes decision to receive the Living word, Christ himself via required " changing mind" - otherwise called  repentance. Because to those who did receive him he gave authority to become the children of God, to those who believe in him. They were born, not from human stock, nor from physical desire, nor from the will of a man , b u t  f r o m God. Once we become a ' Royal stock' - all matters is the Fathers will.
            
            This was written by the one of them.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you for letting us know.

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            EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            That would be an argument you would have with other Christians. Of course, secular humanists could care less about the Bible, and if you know of these things they know they shouldn't do, you can explain that. As it is, Christians are the ones who tell us how to behave and what to believe based on their Bible, so they are the ones who are the hypocrites.
            
            
            
            So, you're basing this on whether or not people will kill using a gun? You know quite a few people like that? Seems you're talking about a very small minority of people and not the vast population.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Q1.) Why do you, EncephaloiDead, suppose people come on line to discuss their views with strangers? It seems some people become friends. Most people actually prefer to argue!
               
               Q.2) Is it more satisfying to respond or to be responded to? Or both equally?
                
               Its all an illusion either way.
               
               Sinning is always based on the illusion that the act will somehow be satisfying. If only we can get to the reality of what will make us truly and lastingly happy!
               
               Maybe posting in forums is sinning for all we know!

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      oceansnsunsetsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      This is a tough question because it is so multi faceted in regards to different particulars associated with all kinds of possible sins.  I think the bible is clear we don't get a free pass on our sins.   Some people take God on his terms regarding breaking his laws/violating our own consciences.  Some do not take God on his terms and we all get what comes with our choices as we do in all things in our lives.  God, us, and our sin are not free from the normal way things are in regards to cause and effect.
      
      What I see balked at the most often in forums like these are people not happy that God would be in charge of all things, have rules, and have consequences like we see in our own lives with the governing forces in place.  Some are ok with our current laws and the forces that govern us, but are NOT ok with  a possible good God and his role in our existence, which includes governing, judging over us.  That is the tougher side of God I think.  We get SO much from said God, that we can't do for ourselves, and feel totally free to judge him, which I don't fully understand from humans.
      
      I think one topic I find not really addressed here is the idea of our own consciences.  We have something in each of us that makes us feel bad, or even like crap if we go against it for ANY reason, including sheer ignorance.  I think we don't need to know all the whys and hows to know something isn't wrong. A super simplistic form would be the idea of Jiminy Cricket in Pinochio.  You can be in totally new situations you never addressed before or were told is wrong, and have a gut feeling that you should or shouldn't do something.  We can make a choice at the moment no matter how knowledgeable or calm we are.  This idea admittedly breaks down for people that have other psychological issues where they have no conscience to answer to.  We know deep down though that those people can be very dangerous at times potentially, to a freedom loving people in society.
      
      Anyway, those are some of my thoughts to address this.  I don't think we are born in an ignorant state of consciousness, not totally.  I think we are born with a moral code in place, AND a urge to break that code, to test the limits, to walk up right to the "line" of whatever governing force is over us, just like little kids test their parameters at times.  As for calmness and being knowledgeable, those things can help, but a person that has those isn't free from the most basic forms of moral conflict within themselves.  To those that struggle to be calm in life, they can be very good people too.  Calm might just not be a characteristic of their personality. As far as learning from mistakes, I think we choose to take the long route, the testing of things, as we can dig in our heels and be so stubborn.  In short, we want what we want and that includes no down sides to our choices. 
      
      People are also really good and justifying their own, "not so bad" behaviors by comparing them to those that commit far worse "crimes" than themselves.  If only that did mean ours didn't matter.  Yet it seems to matter.  I heard it put once....that just maybe we FEEL guilty at times, because we actually are.  Its possible, if we did do something wrong.  People can feel this and struggle with the "what is going on there" part of it, especially when denying a possible God I think.  We have to shut off a true cause and effect response and try to make sense of things without a possible God.
      
      Thanks for asking a thought provoking question.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you for contributing.

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   psycheskinnerposted 10 years ago

   I guess if it is willful disobedience all atheists are without sin?

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      lone77starposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      psycheskinner, you said, "I guess if it is willful disobedience all atheists are without sin?"
      
      Wouldn't that be nice. But ignorance of the law is no excuse. The first law is that of love. If you have any self-concern, then you are disobeying that law. Oops! That means nearly everyone on the planet, including likely every Christian. There might be a few Hindus, Buddhists or Kabbalists who have attained the loving viewpoint of no self-concern. Likely not for Christians. Ego has corrupted Christianity too well.
      
      Atheists will never achieve this state of Love, because they dismiss Love (God), the source of all bestowal (creation of the universe).
      
      That state of ignorance won't last forever. Over our many lifetimes, we have been each getting gradually more and more egotistical. When we reach our bubble limit, we will no longer find fulfillment in anything the physical realm has to offer. So, I've been wrong all this time. Ego does serve a good purpose, even though it is the source of all evil. Growing egoism prepares each of us for the necessary "need" that will open the door to spirituality.
      
      So, ultimately, even atheists will no longer be able to hold onto their atheism.

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   Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

   This one seems all over the place. What is your point? What are your questions? When i read, "When people go against the agreed upon codes of moral conduct, what is their motivation?" I remember that you told me specifically that the agreed upon code was to: Not correct people at the time of their mistake; not lecture; allow people to come to truth their own way without your interpretation of what is right etc.
   So I guess I will wait to ensure i know your motivation before my two cents is added. Thanks in advance. 

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks for your contribution, NOT. What no bible quotes about SIN??? why the heck not??? now when they are most needed???
      Thanks for nothing, Miss C!

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         Silverspeederposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Surely sin is a religious concept?
         No religion, no sin!
         Sin is a control measure invented by religionists to keep the faithful in line.

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   Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

   Oh! And please define "blind obedience" as you mean it here.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Blind obedience is used to contrast willing obedience. Blind obedience is doing what we are told without questioning, without knowing the reasons why, just for the SAKE OF ITSELF alone. Sometimes teachers and preachers try to foster blind obedience.
      
      In some ways blind obedience is being fostered less and less in our society as time goes on. (In some ways, more. I have seen modern parents trying to instill blind obedience as early as eighteen months.) Much freedom has been given to today's youth and they do need boundaries. (According to Dr. Montessori, boundaries are best instilled in childhood for the purpose of establishing a guide to proper behavior. Having freedom of will is dependent on following common sense boundaries in order to avoid negative consequences)
      
      But, these boundaries must be instilled in a generous way: Parents and teachers must work with the child's natural sense of willing obedience. For instance a child learns his boundaries by willingly following our lead. This natural compliance is instilled by nature within the child. Parents mistakenly attempt to instill *blind obedience* from without.
      
      I don't think we should override a child's innate sense of (willful) obedience. In other words, we should work with it. Otherwise, we could shut it down or deviate it altogether.

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         Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         Ok now it seems you are saying that children need guidance, but they need to be allowed their own free will. Seems both ends again.
         However, I may respond to the definition of blind obedience.
         As a Christian, I do what Jesus would do as much as I possibly can. But nothing about my obedience is blind. He told me why I should follow him. He told me what will happen when I do not follow. He told me how to follow. He showed me what to follow. The only blind part is his face.
         Teachers do not have a blind obedience policy either. You may only raise your hand in class.
         Now my late father? He wanted blind everything! "because I said so," was a constant bar to info. God is not like that. We can ask all we want about our reasons for following. We may not get what things we want all the time, but that's different.

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            psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Children are not entirely allowed to act according to their own free will, because otherwise they would run into traffic and drink anti-freeze. They are quite correctly expected to "simply obey" in many situations where lengthy explanations are not reasonable to deliver to the little why-migators.

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               Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               I totally agree. ...little why-migators
               So, are we discussing frer will or not free will??? That is the question. 

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                  psycheskinnerposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Well if God is like a parent or shepherd one assumes the same is meant to apply.  Do what the Bible says even when you don't understand why.
                  
                  But the fact remains that most people who are ostensibly Christian don't actually do every single thing the Bible says.  In fact almost no one does if that particular part doesn't "make sense" to them.

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                     Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Exactly. Not good. You believe or don't. You cannot "throw out" God's words because they do not sound right to you.
                     I think what should be explained though is blind faith with God is not blind. We have a vast array of answers to the question why in scripture. Even in those times when we do not understand; we make a choice based upon what we consider right thinking  Who on earth thinks "better" than scripture? I think, not one, is the answer.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  Well, children are different from adults!  Actually, adults sometimes forget or go against what they learned as a child. So this really is about adults. Not children. Humans... at the adult stage of development.

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                     Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Well they all have free will, and are admonished to use it. God has laid out the parameters for what is right and wrong. In the faithful, it is variable based upon one's own faith. I can eat all the "sacrificed meat" I want and not sin. My brother may not be able to.
                     The boundaries are in place. We may walk in and out all we want. But the heart should be clean as much as possible at all times. We do not know the day nor hour of Christ's return.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            Why is it that God does not expect blind obedience, yet (some) people do?

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               Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               People are power gluttons. They want extra. The "third eye you spoke of seemed to add two extra eyes than the "one" that Jesus spoke of. Only discussion can help us reason out whether God gave us three eyes or one. We are not hurting anyone but helping all.

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  The third eye is really a location where the "seat of the soul" is / originates. It is in your mind, right above the eyebrows is where YOU are! Our intuitive abilities come from our inner selves. How else can you, Cgenaea, perceive the Holy Spirit? By hearing, feeling, seeing, tasting or smelling? No by intuiting.
                  as always,
                  Take It or Leave It.

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                     Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     Taking!!!
                     However, the heart was my understanding of where Jesus's eye is. The core of you. The head is all messed up.
                     Jesus never said, "the seat of the soul" to me. I cannot image a sitting soul. When I meditate or pray, something connects to spirit near my heart; not my head. Does that make sense? Or am I mountainizing our molehill?

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        seat
                        2 headquarters, base, center, nerve center, hub, heart; location, site, whereabouts, place. Dictionary.
                        You intuit clearly, Cgenaea: the heart is definitely involved. However, we do not think with our heart. It is a matter of feeling (heart) AND thinking (brain/mind,) of course.
                        TWII

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                           Jeramiposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Ya have to have the ears to hear A (particular) thang, in order to hear THE thing.
                           and have the eyes to see A (particular)thing, in order to see THE thing.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              I am saying...
                              There is a location within the mind where the soul/self is actually situated. Here a person can sense truth/reality beyond the physical plane. It is the same soul/self which hears, tastes, smells, feels / touches and sees with the other senses. Just depends on what the soul/self is trying to sense: physical plane realities or beyond-physical plane realities.
                              Tuning into God requires intelligence, love and feeling. We are not automatons. Our joy is the Wisdom and Love from where we originate.
                              Right?

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                                 Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
                                 
                                 I think the belly is the innermost. The brain often fails. The heart seems to never lie. The heart is the center of you. The brain is the center of the head. Is the head where you are focused in meditation? My spiritualness (Ashton ) comes from like behind my lungs very near my stomach.

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                                    AshtonFireflyposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    "Spiritualness." I like it. Believe it or not, I'm not here to disagree. yay!
                                    
                                    What I was gonna say, sounds like this "area" might be what some people call solar plexus? idk maybe that's a new agey thing, but it sounded familiar. In theatre, when we were learning how to harness and release energy or spirituality (don't judge) during character portrayal, we learned to "pull" from this solar plexus. Maybe it's like the spiritual energy catchall, even for heathens such as myself.

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                                       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Mind is obviously involved too, guys. (A mind is a terrible thing to waste, as they say.) You don't use your brain, but you do use your mind/focus power. tuning-in power. Who is it tuning into your heart or solar plexis? You, the self/soul situated in the head where the mind is. We are talking Yoga here! Yoga means union with God/Spirit. This is what Jesus could do. Join God's Spirit.. referred to as Christ Consciousness. Literally He teaches how we can do this too. There is more to spirituality than just worshiping. That is just the beginning!
                                       As I have been recently reading.
                                       Take it or leave it.
                                       just sharing.

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                                          EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                          Uh, the mind is the activity of the brain, which is always being used, whether it is clouded and obscured with religious beliefs or clear and functioning correctly if used with logic and reason.
                                          
                                          
                                          
                                          There's nothing there to take, it's all just make believe.

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                                    EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    Brains are used for thinking, hearts are used for pumping blood. Fyi.

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                                 EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                 Yet, there is no evidence of such a thing ever shown. Do you have any evidence?

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                                    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                    YES I do! and so did… roll the drums… Jesus! Heaven is within!
                                    Take It or Leave It.
                                    
                                    PS you forgot to add...
                                    choose one or any:
                                    In My Opinion
                                    In My Honest Opinion
                                    As I believe
                                    In My View
                                    In My Not So Humble Opinion Opinion
                                    According to Me and Me Alone
                                    ...to every single one of your E. Head posts.
                                    
                                    We get that you don't believe you have a self. It is very obvious. And your brain? If you don't have a self, the brain is useless. Maybe you could grow a self! 

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                                       EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                                       So, what you're saying is that we can expect all of your posts to contain the same made up stuff that has nothing to do with reality? Okay.
                                       
                                       
                                       
                                       Lol, yeah that's so funny. Yes, I know I have a self and we all have brains, it's just not an organ of the body used to it's potential from many, and as you say, is rather useless for them.

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                           Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           What do you think of the biblical scripture that states, "lean not unto your own understanding...?"

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                           Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           HEART is used in the Scripture 6 ways:
                           The physical pump;
                           Soul affections;
                           The conscience;
                           Human nature: ' He said, " What comes out of a person defiles him. Foe  from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft murder, adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride and folly. All these evils come from within and defile a person." '
                           The mind:
                           The center of anything.
                           More help and understanding of "heart" after of sufficient knowledge of original languages in which the Scriptures has bee given as well as the nature of circumstances of being communicated.

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                              Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                              Very Helpful. Let me make your last sentence clear:
                              
                              To obtain more help and understanding of the word "heart" one must gain sufficient knowledge of original languages in which the Scriptures were given, as well as the nature of the circumstances in which the word was used.
                              
                              I would certainly agree.

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   Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

   Hey, hey... The wages of sin is death. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Uh... Go, and sin no more... all better now???
   I want to know want you want. It seems this op is from one pole to the next and back again. I was trying to figure the angle from which to respond. Maybe I am the only one cloudy; but i'm cloudy.
   Can we truce and take it from the top??? I'll go first.
   Thanks in advance.

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Edit: Blind obedience is just a side topic.

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         Cgenaeaposted 10 years agoin reply to this

         ...God is not the author of confusion...
         Please tell me what the main topic is. Your last post started and ended with blind obedience. 
         Is it willful obedience? For that I need to check the meaning again.
         Not trying to give you a hard time at all. I want to get an understanding; our conversations are going from super sticky in the Summer, to frozen ponds in Alaska. No need for that. With God, all things are possible. We both claim we got him, right? We can do this...

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

            You are right. I am struggling… I have the gist of it here. any feedback at all is welcome.

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               Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

               Thank you for your " Welcome".  The  topic  we are looking at is " The true nature of sin, " - followed by elaborated suggestion/information about assumed  " true nature of sin " leaving us without an answer  since there isn't a direct question. Who does care for concept of  " sin", in modern era , anyway? Do parents raising their  children by example to do right thing right? Who  in the world is doing right things right ,- Do politicians , preachers, teachers ; most of whatever happens is tolerated as "An honest mistake." If we would be serious to the matter, we would have to return to the Garden of Eden where the Creator as only parent wanted to raise His earthly family in knowing right and doing right. He has said, this all you can do and handling ,-  just read about all authority and dominion a man had received - except one,-- which sounded like this ''When you would like to know more, talk to me, my wisdom will be provided to you " ( My interpretation of the tree of' the knowledge of good and evil.')  What happened there the Book says in human translation - happened a "sin". God didn't call it sin, a sin,-man did. Man  ran through the stop sign after he was told : "Make a full stop." Isn't it that everybody who receives a Drivers License has made that required full stop? Yes, for a clean record, none is rewarded  for running through a stop sign  killing a innocent pedestrian  ( Just telling'). Was that sin committed ? No, oh no. There is a judicial system working according " very precise " regulations that layers can dismiss some sins if there is good chunk of money supporting. Similarly so-called churches, they have they own gimmick of " Confessing sin and giving absolution " - and almost nobody  sins   anymore and no one is " feeling guilty."
               (So, don't  we get  a pass or being human?) Good  question. What we want to know or what we do need to know about sin anyway ? Do we believe in Supreme or not? Can a ' human " on its own determine what is good or bad; what is right and what isn't right.? For me  there isn't a problem, for the correct info. is waiting as  I  go to my Christ and He tells me the truth and for me to follow what is right is only a small token of love for ALL he is providing for me.  ONE more thing here : no  one has mentioned a popular word "faith" or believing. Not necessary ! For the rest of humanity there is a universal LAW in the Orbit : IF you know what is good and you refuse to do it, for you it is a SIN. . . A moment please, before you start.throwing stones at me, for not knowing what is " good"-- here is a simple advise: ASK for interpretation of traffic signs if you are in unknown territory. Ask; - just don't play ignorance  accusing others for your "Honest mistakes."

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                  Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                  kathrynlhill repeating:
                  
                  Perhaps calmness and knowledge are antidotes for sin in all cases. 
                  
                  Will God put us in Hell for not being calm and knowledgeable when we should have been?
                  
                  Or, does He give us the leeway to become willingly obedient through developing calmness and wisdom?

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                     Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                     To be clear: God isn't putting anyone  in Hell for not being calm and knowledgable when needed. Basically it is personal choice what one likes to know and how will conduct his lifestyle- with consequence . To my freewill  - personal interpretation- "Talk to me "-- what is meant is " communication" In the Garden  God was walking with Adam and Eve- they probably communicated. However, with coming of Christ Jesus everything became simple and easy  (Not only for me, for everybody). Here it is  in Jesus words " If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and wi will come to him and make our home with him." How's that possible? Can anyone not knowing when the ALL KNOWING lives in him ?  Now,-  Jesus is LIVING WORD, we read / search His word in order to obtain the answer if  our desire is to be " Obedient ' and  acquire a knowledge  re. WISDOM.
                     The next one , "can a human determine on its own  what is good or bad; what is right and what is wrong ?" My answer would be : Can a  human determine anything at all, or only determine what wants to do regardless ? Following the  road map is  easy in todays society : Even  the world respect driving on highway in assigned direction. If a "Human " lives among other humans and sees that the other human has a wife, can the one without a wife  determine on his own not to touch the other mans wife?! Com on people, we are playing too advance  simplicity to justified sins as doing right if that taste good to "me "…
                     Finally : For me there isn't a problem, for the  correct info… is  partially answered above: Knowing the word of my Jesus, who is the Way , the Truth, and the Life-- is a privilege to obey and to do. There isn't dilemma for  anyone  who wants to live  righteously , to know what is right and do right . Can't be simpler that that.

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, thank you for expounding. Makes perfect sense to me.
                        
                        Here is my new question: What is evil and why or how is it a temptation? (This is a common idea in religious thinking.)

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                           Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

                           Seems too late for this to answer, as you already didid. Basically " evil'  is any activity which is  contrary to God's will.( Following your suggestion " This is a common idea in religious thinking"). Might no much to do with "religious" attitude which might give  an idea to "none-religious" that they can go on sin irresponsibly as the "religious" do. Let us take in consideration that God isn't religious so are His principles. Thus " sin" is an attitude which rejects God's authority,as an negative attitude toward God and man.
                           To second part of  " why or how it is a temptation…"-- I would say, every single  person knows the answer by  mere  experience : Have you seen a child, even a toddler reaching to touch or take something which isn't his and prior to that looking around if anyone is there who is watching ? temptation might come when a " friend" is inviting his body  to enter next door house knowing  nobody is at home… even that small very quiet voice with suggestion " Ten Commandments?"- are you stupid to believe it?!--- You might have better illustration then these. Mine  were only rough  guessing without any chance to put them into practice,- simple because - ( thank God ) - for godly parents and grandparents and neighbors and relatives and teachers and honest people at that time...

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   Cgenaeaposted 10 years ago

   Just jumping out at me is a discourse started by Miss K, guess some time ago. "Blind Obedience v s. Willful Obedience. Guess I'll take a look.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   The other day, I asked Motown2chitown this question:  "What is the nature of "SIN" for Catholics. She answered: 
   "As to the nature of sin for a Catholic...Well, it's no different from the nature of sin for any other Christian...
           People do things they know they shouldn't
                        and they do it deliberately,
                        without concern for others." 
   http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/122609
   
   1. Do they do things they know they shouldn't do, deliberately…( as in willful disobedience.)
   
   2.  Do they do things they shouldn't do, to hurt others deliberately… or just without thinking of others?

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      I would explain that most "sins" are acts of ignorance and omission.   Rarely are they committed with the intent of being purposefully disobedient or hurtful.
      (...with the exception of those who commit deliberate acts of revenge and murder, of course. But even then… emotions "got the better of them."
      
      Perhaps calmness and knowledge are antidotes for sin in all cases. 
      
      Will God put us in Hell for not being calm and knowledgeable when we should have been?
      
      Or, does He give us the leeway to become willingly obedient through developing calmness and wisdom?

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   I really liked Michael-Milecs response:
   
   God to Adam and Eve: ''When you would like to know more, talk to me, my wisdom will be provided to you."  backed up by this question: "Can a " human " on its own determine what is good or bad; what is right and what isn't right?"
   Michael's answer:  'For me there isn't a problem, for the correct info. is waiting as I go to my Christ and He tells me the truth…"
   with a last admonition: "...don't play ignorance, accusing others for your "Honest mistakes."
   
   So what Micael is saying is, IMO, there really is NO EXCUSE for being ignorant! Jesus came and revealed the path to happiness… and heaven within.  For instance: "Love God with your whole body, mind, heart and spirit." and "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
   Michael has convinced me that I can stay calm and have knowledge by reading / comprehending / knowing the words of Jesus and thereby tuning into heaven within… and when I do there will be lots of love, peace and happiness.
   Thanks Michael.
   
   PS His manner remedies the attempt to force belief through blind obedience. Instead, he fosters willful obedience: In other words: No forcing from Michael, just gentle encouragement and wise instruction.
   Who could resist?

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      Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you Kathryn for your  accolade. The praise  goes to the ONE who is supplying  wisdom needed to share  for common good.

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

   I have to answer my own question. Evil is the deliberate and willful disobedience for the sake of power/money/wealth. 
   
   What is the second death mentioned in the Bible? the annihilation of the soul? Is that possible?
   
   Anyway, there seems to be many levels of sin: from correctable and forgivable mistakes to evil intent punishable by either some sort of Hell or second death.
   
   The best way to avoid sinning at all is to learn to be calm, feel love, and willingly learn and follow the precepts of Jesus. Is that enough? That's a good question too.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

    My Conclusion:
    I guess it all gets down to caring. God made us. He is our Father. Living with love in our hearts for Him is good in that we are in tuned to His existence and therefore our Own. We do have a sense of what is good for us. Sometimes we want what we want when we want it. At that point we could forget the big picture. Don't forget the big picture. Who loves you in this life? Stay loyal to whoever loves you and has your best interest at heart. There are many points of life and love in your life. They will give you direction. Have faith in Spirit. Love life. And keep steady toward the light of God.  Wow this turned into Blatant Advice For a Happy Sin Free Life.
    TWISI

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years ago

    Sinning comes from involvement on the physical plane. We are driven to find a stimulus for happiness at all times. Sometimes we do things we know we shouldn't when trying to obtain:
    1.  Acceptance into a group
    2.  Power 
    3.  Attention
    4.  Love
    5.  Admiration
    6.  A sense Self importance
    7.  Money
    8.  Survival
    9.  Relief from Boredom
    10. Relief from depression or other internal struggles.
    Sometimes wanting a short term gain / advantage will outweigh an eventual loss.
    This is one reason why unwanted pregnancy occurs.
    This is one reason why some get sucked into drug deals,
    illegal scams, bad marriages, stealing, lying and cheating and substance abuse! (What we loose, usually, is peace of mind, personal liberty and health. The loss of any of these is pretty Hellish.
    
    It is not as easy as it seems, to avoid sinning. Just reading the Bible  on Easter, Christmas and an occasional Sunday may not help … In the twinkling of the eye, anyone can cross the line of right and wrong, good and bad, unless they are very grounded.
    
    Luckily, there is chance for better luck next time... through wisdom gained and the renewed determination to stay on a straighter and narrower path.
    
    Making mistakes can instruct us in the school of hard knocks. I am not saying it is impossible to be proactive by reading the Bible. Hopefully studying scripture is good enough. But, usually it isn't, if you really analyze it!
    
    One motivation to avoid sinning is knowing what is good for you and those around you. The Bible can help you know what is good. Knowing which negative consequences you can't handle also helps.
    But, the best motivation is loving God, (love
    leads to "willing obedience.")
    TWISI

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       EncephaloiDeadposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       It's actually quite easy to avoid those things, no problem at all, and without the need for any religious beliefs or scriptures.
       
       
       
       Actually, the Bible doesn't help at all, quite the contrary.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          Reading another's post requires an interested aware self / soul. That which is simulated toward some type of action is the self / soul. One cannot actually grow a self, as I joked about with E.Head one just has to acknowledge Its existence! There is hope for every single person operating a Human body to find heaven Within.
          TWISI

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    lone77starposted 10 years ago

    Kathryn Hill, this is one of the most vital topics in the universe. Thank you!
    
    Sin is ego (self-concern). The first willful disobedience was that of separation from God. When that happened, we separated from each other, too. We became blind so we could no longer see through spiritual eyes. Tragically, we could not think, either. We were lost in a nightmare.
    
    When these Homo sapiens bodies were created (evolved?), we finally had a stable consciousness with which to think on the problem before us.
    
    Christ described sin when he talked of the first (egoist) being last, and the last (humble) becoming first.
    
    We can attain spiritual enlightenment (heaven) while still with our human bodies, because we will be spiritually connected. Those who deny their own spirituality (Holy Ghost) will never be able to achieve this, so they will be forever condemned. This is what Christ and his followers were talking about.
    
    When there is no longer any self-concern, then we will no longer have any limitations. This means that we will have the perception and the wisdom to know what is right and what is effective. There will be no more mistakes.
    
    The problem with being human is that we are caught in a dichotomy that is separate from True goodness. Our mortal goodness is full of self-concern and is thus evil (full of sin). Even the most giving and loving can be following sin, because there is self-concern. If you give to charity and feel good about having done so, you are feeding ego, the source of all evil. If you give to charity without any self-concern, then you are walking with God. This can be a hard distinction to understand for some, especially for those who have never had a spiritual experience or who have never experienced miracles first hand.
    
    Being human is part of the school to help us overcome our original sin of turning from God toward mortal dichotomies (ego).
    
    My viewpoint of Truth keeps becoming more and more refined. Currently, I'm studying authentic Kabbalah (Bnei Baruch), from the same people who wrote the Bible in code. For those who are ready, this is the ticket home. This could very well be what Christ was talking about.
    
    Being human cuts us no slack. God wants His children back and He is not Homo sapiens.
    
    Asking for slack because you're human is like asking for consideration because of the car you drive. Ain't gonna happen.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I believe we ARE cut some slack for being human. We lean from mistakes. We can change our path. We are not condemned because of our actions.   
       
       When we want to change, we can... that freedom, to me, is leeway. Forgiveness for the past.  Permission to change for the future. Faith that we will.
       
       We are angels when we are sleeping. Is it a sin to wake up?

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          Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

          This would be found in Christ's teaching if "human" are so frequently - while sleeping changed into angels and then changed into human again,- which isn't..
          Instead, If that is correct, " to those who received Him He gave authority to become children of God…"- which is correct, then we ARE God's children always , day and night with GIVEN FREEDOM to follow him and doing His will. Let's take one of Christ's most powerful allegory:" I am the vine; you are the branches..." To everyone's understanding  for the vine and its branches there isn't any difference in " bearing fruit." seemingly the tradition of mans interpretation  has allowed room for "freedom" to do according to certain " churches teachings which people do follow while the " fruit of the vine " is nonexistent . Besides,as far as " faith" would be concerned, Christ Jesus made it very clear, " anyone who has faith in me  will do  what I have been doing. he will do  even  greater …"
          Either this or nothing  and I can't say otherwise because this  is my Father's word .

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             Kathryn L Hillposted 10 years agoin reply to this

             Thanks for inspiring us to be motivated to have faith, Michael.

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