Christianity today is so full of compromise. The world impacts the church, much more than the church impacts the world. So with that being said, do you believe that the church today has placed limitations on God and the occurence of miracles in the world are simply because of our lack of obedience?
Life is a miracle, you are correct. But, I have come to find this question alot coming from the youth that I teach. Miracles were performed during the early church, and it's a question I wanted to pose to others.
You teach youth? Where exactly is this?
... are the questions regarding "the gifts of apostles" or "wine to water" type miracles ...
I would love to see the list of personal miracles God granted me and my family that I never even knew about. Can you imagine how much more grateful we would be if we could see *all the good He's done? As if we don't have enough reason to love Him.
I don't know, I talk to Christians every single day, and they insist that miracles are still possible. I know several who insist that god planned a vacation for them, or helped them find their car keys. Hey, some even say that God cured their cancer while they underwent chemotherapy and surgery.
On a serious note, however, the problem with miracle claims is that they cannot be proven or verified. When you inject a supernatural cause, you cannot genuinely look at natural causes and eliminate the possibility that a natural cause is realistic.
I know many people rule out the possibility of miracles happening because "they aren't for today". As janesix pointed out, life itself is a miracle. All around us is a miracle. Miracles were performed in the early church on a daily basis because they didn't limit God and his infinite power. The church today, does. Although a miracle cannot be prescribed by a doctor as written proof, many doctors have been baffled by people who have been healed through prayer. I believe that experience is proof enough.
Redefining the term "miracle," to include non-super natural events seems disingenuous. Thank goodness we have put limitations on the Christian religion though.
No doctors have been "baffled" by super natural miracles. No one has ever been healed through prayer either. If experience is proof enough - this whole discussion is moot.
... welcome to the forums liz ... but understand some folks have no "couths" ... you may as well talk to a box of rocks (which is probably their god anyway) ... or just ignore their insipid comments ... but don't get discouraged ...
... gifts of the apostles ... interesting subject ... do you have a view on them and what do you tell the kids ...
Interesting that you need to verbally abuse anyone who does not believe your claims. This is why your religion causes so many conflicts.
JMcFarland, many have asked, "Why aren't miracles verifiable?" Part of the problem is that they were never meant to be verifiable. That defeats the purpose of miracles. We are each children of God, within our current body and ego. If we look only from the physical (ego + body), then we are reasonable and see only physical continuity. This is the trap we are in. Only by becoming spirit (reawakening our true selves) can we see miracles for what they are. That reawakening can only occur if we eliminate all self-concern -- what Christ called being "First."
Your logic about not being able to "look at natural causes" is quaint and "reasonable," but misses the bigger picture. Miracles are for each of us to create, not to be spectators waiting for someone to drop a big one on us. This would be like a rescuer drawing a picture of rescue for the victim, instead of simply asking the victim to reach out their hand. The victim asking the rescuer to show them how to reach out their hand, all the while believing that such things are impossible, is the height of arrogance and stupidity.
I liken this to a scientist studying flame by pissing on the fuel before attempting to ignite it. Doubt is not the right ingredient for miracles. Skeptics won't see miracles until they stop pissing on the flame of miracles.
To paraphrase your own logic -- When you inject continuity-based, "natural" cause, you cannot genuinely look at spiritual causes and you thus erroneously eliminate the possibility that a spiritual cause is superior to the physical.
Walking on water is not an accidental effect of physical law. You cannot wait around until all the molecules line up to support 5,000 consecutive steps on the storm-tossed waves of the Sea of Galilee. Random motion does not work like that. You cannot wait for some accidental coincidence to allow for the making whole of those who were lepers only moments before. I have seen similar miracles and they transcend physical law. Nothing in quantum mechanics, atomic physics or field effect phenomena can explain such occurrences.
Faith is the proper ingredient (not strong belief -- and there's a big difference, here). A bunch of doubting scientists sitting around knowing such things are impossible is them pulling out fire hoses and watering down the entire laboratory before the fuel is ignited. Dumb!
Sniggering at someone who has experienced miracles and demanding that they prove their abilities is the doubter forcing a water hose into their hands and demanding they light the wood waterlogged by that hose. Not very logical and not very nice, either.
We are each learning. We are each growing toward that day when we can love each other as ourselves. That is the true purpose of miracles. Sullying that purpose with some sadistic side-show mentality runs counter to everything miracles are about.
I hope this helps.
Just for the record, there never was a day of miracles but there has always been a God of miracles.
God of miracles, Houdini, do some miracles, Amen!
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows."
Yea, the Lord of the flies and the rings too!!
PS: Only, for the record.
Yes, he is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Liz Kaye, you are so right. Christianity today is watered down and misguided. It has been for more than 1500 years. There have been exceptions to this, but they are too rare.
The "church" is too much "of this world." We have been "taught" to rely on the physical and political church. This is a lie. This is a distraction from the sacrifice that each of us must make in order to follow Christ. The church is not in a building, but in the love between us.
Too many have a misconception about "miracles." Ego, the master of this world, has made us "reasonable" about such things. We see "miracles" in life and in a sunset. These are "ordinary" miracles. These are the products of creation let loose into the time stream of physical reality.
Extraordinary miracles, on the other hand, are the product of direct creation. They are not "accidental" coincidence, but cause-and-effect coincidence. They are extraordinary because they bend or break the continuity of physical law by applying the superior spiritual law. This is Jesus walking on water. This is Peter standing on that unsettled Sea of Galilee in front of his master, before doubt set in. This is Moses parting the sea.
When we can eliminate self-concern entirely, then we can love others as ourselves, desiring for them all that they desire, even if they are our enemies. This is turning the other cheek effortlessly. This is tikkun olam -- healing the world as God commanded and as Christ reminded us to do.
As Christ said, the First (egoist) shall be last and the Last (humble) shall be first. Those without any self-concern are no longer attached to the things of this world and are free. This is Truth. And the Truth is spelled "Love."
Are you an example of unwatered down Christianity?
Righteous Atheist, are you an example of "reason" set free to look at all possibilities?
Your use of logical fallacies (like your argument to ignorance a couple of days ago) speaks volumes concerning your lack of reason-based prowess. Oops!
How then can I respect you in this discussion which is beyond your experience or comprehension?
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