When did marriage become a written agreement?

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   sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

   When did marriage become a written agreement made legal by governmental law only? 
   
   Just wondering because I been there and done that and will not do that again but feel married naturally to someone I really do love and he loves me too but I said I do not want to be married by the law because when you do that they have a say in how you marriage should be.
   
   What do you think?  Is a marriage made legal only by a binding contract that can be annulled or is a "real" marriage the commitment that doesn't need a $$ piece of paper that is a binding "obligation"? 
   
   Or is a real marriage a commitment that is not an obligation but stays together out of the strong and natural love two people can have for each other?
   
   Do you think that governmental laws are more damaging than they are helpful?
   
   I guess to me, that lawful marriage contracts make you property.

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      Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I'd be interstd in seeing some answers on this as I have been there and done that too.  I went through my divorce twice because I re-married a Catholic and had to go thrugh the annulment process -10 years after the legal state law of divorce.  It wasn't easy because the Catholic Church has you get in contact with previous family members to get their *approval* of your annulment---even when they are not Catholic and it has been 10 years since you have ever talked to them.

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         sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         I know, it is strange.  I told a woman once who is heavily religious that I will not marry by the law, that if I do not do that then I am not in a contract with the same governments you say Satan rules.  How much sense does this make?
         
         She said I was condescending. Though it maybe be so, I feel like being married is something completely spiritual that God sees and is binding between us as partners and equal to each other, that we are not property to each other but helpers to each other.
         
         Sorry to hear that it had to be like that for you LG, that really sucks.  I can only say I see the problem with marriage because even after it is done, you are still obligated to some extent to people who don't even really know you.
         
         I am interested too to see what people say.

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            Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            As far as I can tell Biblically it is when the two are one--like copulation. intercourse, the sex act. I also think it is what God called Adam and Eve--Helpmeets or Help for each other and of each other.   
            
            There are no words in the Bible--that we read--that has any marriage ceremonial wording.
            
            When love isn't in the picture anymore, I don't think that is when a marriage ends--the lust has, but Marriage is a vocation in itself.

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               sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               I am still confuses at the last part about when love isn't in the picture but I do dig the capital M in a real marriage. 
               
               touche' Lady Guinevere! 
               
               And I never read anything either about a marriage ceremony or documenting two people on a piece of paper, though I did see that Jesus and Mary were married because back then their marriage ceremony was done by anointing feet with oils.

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         mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         Here where I am you can't even get them annulled. I knopw of one guy idiot, that got married paraletic. then decides a day later it wasn't what he wanted. He had to wait the 2 years... its been really tightened up on. Only grounds are irrevocable breakdown. Adultery and all the rest don't cut it anymore.

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      mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      It has always been a contract, whereby someone else owns another, even the wording is scary. I can see all the God botherers getting off their horses about now, and saying no it is a wondderful institution. If it works for you good and well, its not my bag. (I have tried it ) But I agree with you well written

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   aniketgoreposted 16 years ago

   When you feel you dont have any love remaining for your partner. Then it happen.

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      I am sorry, I don't understand what you mean. 

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   pgrundyposted 16 years ago

   I think the government has no business inserting itself into marriage contracts. It gets complicated though. With gay marriage becoming legal in many states (and I think gay people SHOULD have equal rights under the law), I think the next big issue will be partners who choose not to marry but do have a lifetime commitment. There are LOTS of us, and we don't get the rights married people do legally, yet it should  be up to us whether we want to marry. Marriage seems to me to be a religious thing, and in the absence of religion, it makes no sense.
   
   In fact, even with religion it makes no sense. As LG points out, there is very little in the Bible about it, and most religious traditions regarding marriage are awful for the woman.
   
   I think something like legal unions would be reasonable, but leave marriage out of it.

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      No doubt.  I agree.  I think the whole idea of marriage should be taken out of gov. law and religious laws and let the real Marriage be between the two people who chose to be together. 
      
      It is ridiculous that there should be anyone else involved in a marriage, after all, we aren't sleeping with them.
      
      I wonder what would happen if the marriage was taken out of the law all together... the church would probably lose money on marrying them and the government would lose money divorces. lol

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      mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      We have Civil Unions here for Gays, and it puts them exactly in the married persons state. ie property etc.etc. Hardly anyone has them tho so we either haven't alot of gays, or they just don't see the point in entering into a legal environment.

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         sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         aint it da truth sugar?  Why on Earth a person who is gay would want to subject their union in the eyes of the gov. law is beyond me.  I, being straight don't even want that.

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   Paragliderposted 16 years ago

   Geting rid of marriage would certainly make the divorce statistics look a lot better! And not a few lawyers would have to find another way to rip us off...

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      mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Funny when I split from my " legal" marriage husband was a pig. lol. The halfwitted lawyer made a packet, second time  we just walked taking our own stuff, it was a hell of a lot easier.
      Apart from the fact, I decked his son, which incidentally was something I had been waiting to do for years. Xtra lol. No lawyers second time round.

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   indian cookingposted 16 years ago

   This is an interesting topic . I am looking forward to see more answers.

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   sandra rinckposted 16 years ago

   I think the 'lawful' marriage is for the sole purpose of property rights.  ugh~  these days with things like medical insurance... you have to be legally married for you wife or husband to receive benefits even if they say... hey that is my wife or husband.
   
   I know common law sees this as a marriage in property rights and all that but it still doesn't get you help when you need it and it doesn't recognize the same common law when a couple is gay.
   
   It's so stupid.  What does the law, religious or governmental have to gain from it besides the money they request to marry them and the money it takes to divorce them, which seems to only make life harder for people financially and emotionally.

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   Make Moneyposted 16 years ago

   Hi Sandra.  This is a touchy subject so I have been hesitant to post.  If you are interested here are a couple of resources.
   What the Bible says about Marriage and Divorce.  You may be interested in the "Pauline privilege" or the "Petrine privilege".
   Annulments.

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      Lady Guinevereposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      That is what the Bible says about getting married and who should be able to divorce, but not and ceremonial rights nor any ohter governmental laws.  You can do better thatn that Mike.  Let's see those verses because not all of the ones here are gonna read the Bible or have any interest in it at all and I am not talking about me.  Why does it have to be a touchy subject?  We are asking questions.  What does it say in your own words?

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, Mike.  I have read about it but like LG is saying... I am actually asking about when and what does the bible say about becoming married?
      
      I ask because like with Adam and Eve, we can assume they were married but there wasn't any officiator there to make the union lawful.  But they became lawful and acknowledge by God and it was by God's blessing alone that made the union acceptable.
      
      So my mind is wondering why we have officiators and written laws to acknowledge a couple as married when a complete and total union seems to be expressed and approved only by God and between the two involved.
      
      I mean, I have read a lot of things about why polygamy is not okay and why divorce is acceptable or annulment... but nothing really about why priest became the authority or how it came to be that the parents would have a say... I mean it says that when the children grow up they leave their folks to start their own families and they need to let go.
      
      Truthfully I may not have a problem with churches marrying a couple as a witness before God but signing contracts and being subject to laws that are binding by contracts seems strange to me.

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   Make Moneyposted 16 years ago

   Well the first link that I posted talks about when and what the bible says about becoming married.  The Church document is just an affirmation of the life long vow to God between the couple.  I don't know why priests became the authority.  The Bible talks about how Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding reception.  I imagine the tradition stems from before then.
   
   As for the government document I don't see much use for them.
   
   Now I'm going to step out of this conversation.

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      sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, that is right, I forgot about that.  When he went to a wedding reception... I think it went something like; Jesus told the people to get more wine for them and they said there is not wine and Jesus said look again.
      
      I really don't want you to leave the conversation because you always have something valuable to contribute, at least I think so. 
      
      What if we petitioned that marriage be removed from the gov. law?  I would think that in doing so there wouldn't have to be such deputes about who can be and who cannot be and let it be between the two and God. 
      
      Anyways, since you are stepping out of this conversation I just want to say thanks, for what it is worth.
      
      I think you might be interested in this topic though.  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/13370

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         Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

         That sounds good to me Sandra.
         
         I have to go out, I'll check that other thread later.
         
         By the way mandybeau I said I was stepping out of the conversation because I don't know much about divorce or annulment, whether in the Church or government.  "Apart from the fact, I decked his son, which incidentally was something I had been waiting to do for years."

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            sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this

            Whaaaaa??? LOL

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               Make Moneyposted 16 years agoin reply to this

               I was quoting mandybeau.  I thought it was kind of funny.

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                  mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

                  Yeah I know the look on his stupid face was even funnier. I have it etched in my mind forever complete with the vision of the Bookcase he fell over, as he landed head over turkey into a rather small toilet. No where else for him to land, that was appropriate too.lol

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      mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

      Don't want to be a total Bitch... but the lady started a forum, so why would you answer it and then step out when it got too hot..................Why I question Christianity, you guys don't have the answers. I remember asking one to many questions about the ark re the different animals, and how the voyage could have been possible, and got sent out of the rooms. Christian, whatever they are just seem to back off when they don't have the answers. I have had more answers from Islamic people.

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   mohamedhmmposted 16 years ago

   Marriage is natural law; but recently in the last century or about, it was legalize by government to control marriage issues and keep the rights for any couples and their children.
   but same sex marriage people- and it's far away to be legalize as natural marrige because it's no results from it, no kids, no life-; they knew it's wrong act to marry same sex; So, they looking for a kind of authority-government- to legalize their act, and make their feeling better; because they are sick inside themselves; and i hope they could keep it for themselves and stop the madness of same sex marriage and crying loud to force us to accept their act as natural act; but it's not.
   
   
   
   In the end we are not against any one act if it doesn't harm us.......

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    aka-djposted 16 years ago

    I'd hazzard to guess, legal documentation became neccessary when people stopped living by honoring their word. Used to be that a handshake WAS a legal, binding agreement. I suppose "legal" makes it controllable (?), for property rights etc.
    As for the church making money, I doubt it. They get lots more revenue elsewhere.

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       mandybeauposted 16 years agoin reply to this

       You need to adjust the colour on your avator shot...... You don't look alive its freaky lol.

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    Lady Guinevereposted 16 years ago

    Al this leagal stuff and religious stuff about marriage.  It comes to mind of the laws that the governemtn set out a long time ago and they are the ones who are disowning them----what is the thing with Separation of Church and State.
    
    About the church making money off of weddings.  The Clergy do get paid and so do the Organist and Music people and the Lectors and lots more that one doesn't even think about being paid in the church.  All the State gets is paymnet for the Marriage license.  It'a all about posession and Money---the great sin! LOL

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    panamabevposted 15 years ago

    Well, me personally, I have had 5 legal marriages.  Neither me nor my ex believe in 'legal' marriage anymore...our eyes have become opened.  As some have stated, Adam and Eve were married in the sight of God, she was created for him as a help mate...THEY WERE MARRIED!  At that time women were property, and when a man came to the father's tent to get his very young wife, he usually paid with cattle.  The man took his new property (wife) to his tent and he 'knew her', I don't think he was just trying to get acquainted lol.  'Knew' her meant that he had consummated the relation, which was the marriage...there were no papers or ceremonies involved.  In slave days all the couple did was 'jump the broom' still no legal papers.  Marriage is SIMPLY blending or bringing together. 
    
    Man created this legal marriage law!! There was a time when living together was O.K., but when it became a 'legal law', those marriages were not recognized...they were now considered 'common law' which sounds pretty bad.  It made it sound like those people were 'low class', lesser than.  When I visit Central America, there are lots of married people there, but most do not have a legal contract.  They are committed to each other...that's marriage.  This legal paper thing is European. 
    
    Remember the days when a hand shake (gentleman's agreement) was all that was needed??  That WAS the contract.  Today everything is by legal' contract which generates money for the government and attorneys.  You have to have a contract to get in, and one to get out of almost everything today.
    
    I personally believe that God honors the commitment between  coupleS as a binding contract...just as he did from the beginning.  I also believe that when one or both partners decide that it is over, it is over...the verbal contract has ended.  Again, there is no need to pay someone a big price to say it is 'legally' over...giving the lawyer the big divorce fee!  I think the heart is the only contract that really speaks.
    
    Now let's not talk about adultery or fornication in all of this, that's another topic. lol  Google: The Law of St. Augustine

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    getyourgirlfbackposted 15 years ago

    Good inputs on this one all around.
    
    Go God!

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    mobilephone guideposted 15 years ago

    let's all just copulate and propagate. love is just a chemical anyway, a delusion.

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