First cell & Intermediate Fossils

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   Eng.Mposted 15 years ago

   *I think the chances of the first cell to evolve into a fly or simpler being is one to infinite ..
   
   but not in the Simpsons
   
   Homer Evolution
   
   
   *Richard Dawkin in responding to the author of 'Atlas of Creation' made fun of the view creationists have about the supposed intermediate creatures..
   
   but he didn't give his point of view about this issue ..
   
   Richard Dawkins
   
   he also said he refuses to debate with the author because this one is not qualified as a biology scientist which I agree with him about because the author has got a degree in philosophy and art only ..
   
   but he may have studied biology since a long time ..
   
   the question is :
   how much do you need to be qualified to understand Evolution?
   
   I am just posting this to see what my dear friends responses would be
   
   regards

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      You don't need to be qualified but you do need to have made a serious attempt to understand it. Also to realise that Darwinian Evolution was an early theory which was insghtful for its time but has been greatly refined in the interim, in the light of new discoveries.
      You can, of course, discuss evolution with reference only to the bible and so-called common sense, but that doesn't constitute a serious contribution. You might just as well discuss electronics with reference only to the Song of Solomon.

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         Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I shall steal that one and use it as my own!
         
         Hi Eng. M - I agree with Paraglider. You do not have to have a biological qualification to understand evolution, although it helps, but many people are not actually interested in learning the theory.
         
         They are more interested in creating a strawman to pursue their own agenda - I have long since ceased arguing with them!

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            Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            thanx Paraglider & Sufidreamer
            
            even if religion beliefs are against evolution ..
            and even if I am 100 % sure there is God which is called faith
            
            I am just trying to find some way I can understand why many people belive in evolution without being influenced by my beliefs..
            I want to see what evolutionist see while I am a creationist
            
            can I ?
            
            for example :
            the first cell , I kind of feel it can't evolve into anything useful without an extraordinary thing ..
            
            unless we lose some of our common sense ..
            or insist to explain it in a materialistic way because we want to have a view about everything and that view should belong to our world also ..
            
            
            best regards

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         LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         fantastic line!

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Thanks LG - feel free to adopt, adapt and apply, where appropriate

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2. 79

   Sufidreamerposted 15 years ago

   No worries, Eng.M
   
   Part of the problem is that people think that people who believe in Evolution are atheists. Not the case - some are and some are not.
   
   Did a creator make the universe? Was there a supernatural force behind the creation of the first cell? I have no idea.
   
   Was the universe created 6000 years ago and we descended from Adam and Eve? I have found nothing to support that view.
   
   They are not mutually exclusive - you can be a creationist and an evolutionist

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   1. 64

      Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      hey man
      
      I think what you are trying to say that we have to keep reading
      as much as we know , we know nothing
      
      we judge ideas (but not strongly) and not people
      
      but , why do someone want to know there is a creator ?
      may be life would be easier , hardships will become honey
      
      cheers mate

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   fierycjposted 15 years ago

   Here's what I believe. I believe in an era beyond Adam and Eve. Beyond the formlessness of Creation. An era where Titans and Giants existed. Even the Bible supports this belief. You see the Bible speaking of the Leviathan, Behemoth, Unicorn, Dragons in a literal sense. One has to think outside the box is all. Its not just about Evolutionists and Non-evolutionists. Its way bigger than that. Way more bigger. That's what I believe.

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      Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I agree
      
      thanx man
      
      it is just people are different on this
      some consider it one of the important things in life and spend much times searching about it..
      some believe or don't but they have no enough time for this
      some just doesn't care ..
      
      I think it is the most important think in life
      that is life itself
      
      and like you say, it's much bigger

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   2. 89

      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      That's fine, but can you back it up without reference to the bible. With, for example, some petrified unicorn droppings? Evidence counts for a lot in trying to persuade doubters.

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      Capable Womanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Unicorns and dragons? I must have missed that part. Do you have a specific scripture to cite there?
      
      Quick question...why dosen't the Bible mention the pyramids? I mean, this was the greatest human achievement imaginable at the time and there's not one mention anywhere.
      
      Just ask'n...

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         Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         may be there was no need to do so
         
         may be

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         fierycjposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Dragons - ps 74:13, Jer14:6, Deu 32:33. Other references are more figurative in application. Unicorns - Nu23:22,24:8, Deu33:17,39:9-10,Ps 92:10. These are the ones I wrote down in my book. You may google for more.

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         1. 61

            Capable Womanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Psalm 74:13:  "You divided the sea by Your strength;
                     You broke the heads of the sea monsters in the waters."
            
            (My guess...tuna, sharks, etc. Big fish that people figured out how to catch and eat).
            
            Jeremiah 14:6:Wild donkeys stand on the barren heights
                       and pant like jackals; their eyesight fails for lack of pasture."
            
            (I actually like this one...I bet Pablo Neruda read this at some point. Makes me think of his poetry. Still...wild donkeys aren't unicorns).
            
            Deuteronomy 32:33: "Their wine is the venom of serpents,
                   the deadly poison of cobras."
            
            (serpents, cobras...still no unicorns or dragons here...)
            
            Numbers 23:22,24:8: "God brought them out of Egypt;
                   they have the strength of a wild ox.
                   They devour hostile nations
                   and break their bones in pieces;
                   with their arrows they pierce them.
            
            (some very visceral imagery, however see previous comment in regards to content)
            
            Deuteronomy 33:17 "In majesty he is like a firstborn bull;
                   his horns are the horns of a wild ox.
                   With them he will gore the nations,
                   even those at the ends of the earth.
                   Such are the ten thousands of Ephraim;
                   such are the thousands of Manasseh."
            
            (bulls and oxen...not dragons or unicorns yet...)
            
            Psalm 92:10 "You have exalted my horn [a] like that of a wild   ox;fine oils have been poured upon me."
            
            (unless this is the unicorn speaking in the first person here, then I still don't get it. biblegateway.com describes the word "horn" in this psalm as meaning strength. See  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=31;).
            
            I'm not picking on you,fierycj, but if you are going to make outlandish statements and then attempt to use biblical passages to "prove" nonsense, at least take the time to read that which you are citing.
            
            I know I can Google information as you suggest, just like you apparently did. The next step, however, is actually reading the information.

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      Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      lol - I was brought up on Norse and Greek mythology, so find that idea very interesting.
      
      Don't know how much Norse mythology you have read, but these are pretty good books.
      
      
      http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=StnB … =1#PPP1,M1
      
      http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9o3Z … 1#PPA42,M1
      
      www.forgottenbooks.org has plenty of great free books - well worth a visit.

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         Elynjoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

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            Sufidreamerposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I vaguely remember that one - we studied a little Ovid during Latin classes, although it was a long time ago.
            
            Will have to wiki that one!

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               Elynjoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Ok Mister! That's your assignment today.

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4. 89

   Paragliderposted 15 years ago

   Also worth mentioning that Biological Science isn't 'out to get' religion. There's no animosity. But a scientific field of study has to follow its method without prejudging the outcome.

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      Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      but you may expect outcomes
      and know you may not find them

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         Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I'd say that your scientific theory will predict outcomes. Counter-examples therefore tend to refute the theory. It's a well documented process.

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            Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            you are right
            scientific methods
            but they don't give always correct results
            
            any way
            have a good night everyone

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5. 60

   marinealways24posted 15 years ago

   We were created from "dirt", didn't you people read the "book of God"? Sureeee, just like the drunk with the magic boat saving every animal on earth.
   
   I do not believe we came from Adam & Eve or Monkeys.
   
   I believe we were created without knowing how/why we were created on purpose. If we knew everything, what would be the point of "thought"? There would be no point. Maybe it was meant to be unknown, yet meant to be found out.

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6. 0

   fierycjposted 15 years ago

   Do you honestly believe that I would give you references without making sure of it. Is that really how dumb you think I am. I thought we we're having a friendly debate,but I honestly can see you're not a very nice person. Not to mention smart. Read the friggin verses from a King James Translation. Even my 6 year old nephew knows that you can only get a translation that is closest to the Original Hebrew and Greek texts from the KJV. I have no time for know-it-all pretentious people such as yourself. Enjoy.

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      Capable Womanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Do you honestly believe that I would give you references without making sure of it.
      
      Yes. Yes I do.
      
      Is that really how dumb you think I am.
      
      No comment
      
      I thought we we're having a friendly debate,but I honestly can see you're not a very nice person. Not to mention smart.
      
      Why? Because I call you on your BS? Now all of a sudden it's not a "friendly debate"? You started on shaky ground, my friend..and you're only making it worse. I'm smart enough to be able to READ, by the way. Am I missing something here?
      
      Read the friggin verses from a King James Translation. Even my 6 year old nephew knows that you can only get a translation that is closest to the Original Hebrew and Greek texts from the KJV.
      
      Right...because everyone knows that the Greek and Hebrew are the "originals". Perhaps your 6 year old nephew is the one who introduced the whole "dragons and unicorns" thing to you in the first place?
      
      I have no time for know-it-all pretentious people such as yourself. Enjoy.
      
      If by "know it all" you mean someone with the ability for critical thinking and independent research that took all of 4 minutes, then thank you. Same for "pretentious".
      
      Why is it, fellow hubbers, that whenever you try to debate "the religious" on their own terms (bible verses, etc.) they always get so angry and defensive?
      
      Thoughts?

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      LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Then your nephew will probably learn better as he grows up.
      
      The Authorised Version is wonderful in many ways. But it's far from being the most accurate translation.
      
      This is a household that has both the Authorised Version in English, and the Torah (Old Testament) in Hebrew.

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   fierycjposted 15 years ago

   Oh Capable. I'm very calm. I'm watching a movie and at the same time replying to you from my cell. I'm not defensive either,cos I'm not threatened by you or anyone. I'm from the heart of Africa, where real stuff goes down. It'll take a lot more than a chattering woman in a pc forum to make me defensive or anything. What a laugh.

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      Capable Womanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Good. Be safe. My gf was in Djibouti recently and I know, 2nd hand at least, what sort of "real stuff" you are referring to.
      
      I mean you no disrespect...we are all here to learn from each other.

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         fierycjposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         see, thats how we all get along. It really is that simple.

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            Capable Womanposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Not to belabor the point, fierycj, but you do realize that everyone who doesn't agree with you isn't personally attacking you, right?
            
            I still don't see any evidence of dragons OR unicorns in anything you have said or cited. I will stop here as you and I have effectively devolved this forum into our own personal debating platform at this point (sorry, ya'll )
            
            If you have something new to add that speaks to the original point, I will look forward to it. If not, all the best.

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   fierycjposted 15 years ago

   Read those passages I gave you in a King James Bible and see if there're any peculiarities from the one you're reading. I'm out, I'm enjoying this movie much too much.

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