Millenial reign of Christ
Hey everyone,
Revelation 20:7-11 -Shows Gog and Magog being stirred up by the Devil when He is released for a short while after the 1,000 years are up. The White Throne judgment comes after this. This is also shown about Gog and Magog in Ezekiel chapters 38-39 before the Holy City comes down in chapter 40. This is well after Israel is redeemed and the Gentiles have been grafted in, Romans 11:11-26. Of course it seems that many of the unrepentant have been bannished to Gog and Magog during the millenium.
The lionwswhelpYes, I wondered who would be the nations that rise up against the saints and the holy city, since our Lord and the saints have been ruling for a thousand years ~ it's incredible to think anyone would still be in rebellion, which will be made manifest when Satan is released. This time, though, fire comes from heaven and devours them (the fall of Babylon is Chapters 17 & 18; Chapter 19 shows the kings and armies of the earth making war with Jesus and the saints that come from heaven, including the beast and false prophet who are thrown into the Lake of Fire at the end of this battle - Har-Magedon; the last battle is in Chapter 20 after the thousand year reign). And, as you said, the new heaven and earth are found in Chapter 21. Amen!
Yeah Rev. 18.3 says all nations.
Rev. 18:3 "Because all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication; and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her; and the merchants of the earth have been made rich by the power of her delicacies."
It's time to turn our "swords into ploughshares" (Isaias 2:4). We wouldn't want to be near Armageddon on that day.You're quoting scripture that has to do with the fall of Babylon (just prior to Har-Magedon). I'm talking about the nations that come out against the saints and the Holy City after the millennial reign when Satan is loosed for a short time (Gog and Magog). Those I wonder about ~ obviously, they are quiet while Satan is bound, but are deceived into war when he is released, thus destroyed by fire from heaven (not that of the lightning, thunder, earthquake and hailstorm that fall upon Babylon, nor the Word of the Lord that destroys the armies of Har-Magedon). I see three destructions of our Lord in Revelation: Babylon (saints are raptured), Har-Magedon (saints return with Him and are resurrected to reign 1,000 years) and Gog/Magog (after the 1,000 years, followed by the second resurrection).
I believe the battles are all one in the same Judah's Daughter. In Rev. 16 just after talking about the seven vials being poured out verse 16 mentions Armageddon then in verse 19 it mentions Babylon. Just before that it says this.
Rev. 16:13-15 "13 And I saw from the mouth of the dragon, and from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs. 14 For they are the spirits of devils working signs, and they go forth unto the kings of the whole earth, to gather them to battle against the great day of the Almighty God. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."
Gog and Magog along with the nations shall do battle against the Almighty on that same day as we see in Rev. 20:7. Gog and Magog are a people. Magog is mentioned 4 times in the Old Testament.
I'll check back on Monday. This is a good discussion.You know, I edited my statement and it didn't save it? I meant to say you were originally quoting scripture regarding the fall of Babylon, not Har-Magedon. Anyhow, let me attempt to restate what I see, and yet I will re-read to try to see what you see, also. This is fascinating and a great discussion.
I see the fall of Babylon (at the time the two witnesses are resurrected and raptured, along with the church); then I see the battle of Har-Magedon, which is ended by the Lord's return with the saints and the resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the milennial reign; then I see the final battle (Gog and Magog) after the milennial reign, which ends with the second resurrection and Satan and all evil cast into the Lake of Fire, the second death. These cannot be all the same event. Babylon is not Har-Margedon; and Har-Magedon and the battle of Gog/Magog are a thousand years apart. Do you see where I'm coming from? God bless and peace be upon us all ~~ this is an awesome thread.
Exactly but it will be the Jews that are grafted back in cause the two witnesses prophecy in Jerusalem through the 42 months of tribulations as we see in Rev. 11:3-8. This is how Israel is redeemed.
Rev. 11:3-8 "3 And I will give unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire shall come out of their mouths, and shall devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, in this manner must he be slain. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and they have power over waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast, that ascendeth out of the abyss, shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their bodies shall lie in the streets of the great city, which is called spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord also was crucified."
3 "My two witnesses"... It is commonly understood of Henoch and Elias.
I AM ע ל ע ל י ו ן
It has often be a grievous thing to me as to why those who are called by my name spend so much time discussion things they cannot figure out.
I long for my people to concern themselves with my business rather than doing all of this debate over things only I understand and have hidden from all mankind.
When I return I am NOT going to ask you as to how much you thought you knew about when I am returning.
NO, the questions will be about ANYTHING but that.
I AM ע ל ע ל י ו ןIs this "Mr. Q" (secret name)? ~~ sorry, you just sound like the spirit of someone that's created several mystery profiles (number four thus far: this name, that name, new name, old name....)
ElElyone we will never know the time and day but we are figuring out the rest. This is what we are asked to do. This is a very friendly discussion with few interruptions.
I AM ע ל ע ל י ו ן
I long for my people who are called by my name to humble themselves and seek my face, spending more time in prayer and fasting and repenting than trying to figure out that which I have hidden from mankind and only I know.
I long for them to spend time seeking me, drawing near to me and knowing me intimately and being about the task of doing my works.
I know all the mysteries of these things you try to figure, that is enough that I know. This is what I have chosen to hide form the sons of men.
My servants are to be about seeking me, fasting, praying, caring for the widows and orphans, seeking the lost and preaching my good news.
Spending time in communion with me, getting to know me better, closer, more deeply.
Time is limited for you dear man, spend it doing what my son did. He did not try to figure out all of these things, he went and did as I told him and this is what pleases me.
I love my creation and all mankind. Pray and seek my face and your reward shall be great in my kingdom.
I AM ע ל ע ל י ו ן
I was editing my comment when you posted. See my prior comment (page 6) for the fullness ~ lots more I needed to clarify. Have good night's sleep, brother :-)
I promised that I would not make any statements and I will not, yet. Just one more question. It seems kinda like we have agreed that the three chapters 16, 19 and 20 are all describing the one battle of Armageddon, BUT .... how does Rev.chapter 14 fit into all of this? is this chapter talking about picking fruit?
In Rev. 14:1 Jesus and the 144000 who had been redeamed from among man were seen on mt. Sion. Jesus and two angels reap the earth. This chapter is discribed diffrently because it is not depicting a battle at all. It is simply the reaping of the earth. This is the first rescurrection. This chapter describes the events that bring in the 1000 year reign of Christ.
Jerami, it just seems that so many of us have differing opinions of our interpretation of Revelation; and while all of us are hoping others will confirm our interpretations, or even yours, it appears this is not going to happen. We've all labored to intermingle our thoughts, but they have not come to perfect agreement. We all must just continue to study and do our best.
I personally believe the chronology of Revelation and that most of these events have not yet happened. I see events taking place prior to the fall of Babylon, which very well may be happening now. I see the two witnesses and the church raptured at the time Babylon falls. I then see the armies of the earth coming together for the battle of Har-Magedon, when Jesus and the saints return to fight that battle. Upon completion of that battle, the antichrist and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Satan in bound; at the same event, the first resurrection of the saints that came out of this tribulation period will join the rest to reign ON EARTH for the millenial reign. After this time, Satan will be loosed and gather the nations of Gog and Magog to attempt to conquer Christ and the saints one last time. He and those nations are destroyed and cast into the Lake of Fire; at the same event, the second resurrection of the unbelievers takes place and they are also cast into the Lake of Fire. The New Heaven and New Earth become manifest and all live happily ever after. That's the story I read in Revelation.
Whether we agree as to one single battle, or of all of these is not settled, nor will be. Whether there is only one more resurrection is not settled; whether the millenial reign is in heaven or on earth is not specified in the Bible and is only assumed on both sides; whether the whole Bible prophecy is summed up in the red letters of Jesus' teachings is highly debatable.
I can't contribute anymore, as I cannot firmly agree with you or others with differing interpretations.
We can rest assured Christ will return and evil will be dealt with and ended, bringing heavenly eternity for all who believe. That's our faith and hope; and again, we must live with love most of all, now and forever. God bless all.You know how I said, "I see the two witnesses and the church raptured at the time Babylon falls"? Have you considered the two witnesses being called a "lampstand" and "olive tree"? I don't think the two witnesses are two men, but rather the Church, made up of Gentiles (lampstand) and Jews (olive tree). This would make sense as to the killing of the two witnesses and the resurrection/rapture taking place at the same time, because they are one in the same?
This sounds good in theory, but there's something that stops me from believing that view. Right after the two witness are resurrected, and taken up into Heaven; there's a great earthquake. The more important factor is that this seems to be the only time that a people actually repent.
Revelation 11:13-14
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Also, the two witnesses have the ability to shut up heaven (and cause it to not rain.) The power to turn water into blood, and bring forth all manner of plague, and they have the ability to bring fire from their mouths.
Revelation 11:5-6
5And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.Notice that when the two witnesses are told "Come Up Here!" and they are resurrected and ascend, lightning, thunder, an earthquake and hailstorm follow (Rev 11:11-19). Notice then the "thief in the night" (in Rev 16:15-21), which is followed by lightning, thunder, and earthquake and hailstorm (the fall of Babylon ~ the beginning of the wrath of God). I think fire from the mouth of the witnesses is the Word of God. As far as the judgments on others, this will be God's answering of prayers without our knowing what His judgments will be. I have a couple of videos I just found today that confirm this ~ on my hub "In the Air-On the Earth" ~ you might find them interesting.
Yes we agree on a lot of things Jerami. In Rev. 14 one angel says with a loud voice the judgment day has come, another angel says the great Babylon is fallen but it doesn't say that the reapers will just reap 144,000. Rev. 14 is talking in past tense when talking about the 144,000, "who were purchased from the earth", "who were not defiled with women", "were purchased from among men" and "the firstfruits to God and to the Lamb".
Last night I read the book of Revelation again and wrote this below for each chapter. The angels that speak and give visions to John have to refer back to things that have already happened to complete the story. Three of these past events are in Rev. 12 when Michael and his angels cast the dragon and his angels out of heaven and in Rev. 20 where satan has been bound in the bottomless pit and the saints that reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years.
From Rev. 17 and on after one of the seven angels, who had the seven vials gives John a vision the book repeats some of the things previous chapters have already mentioned but in more detail.
Rev. chapters 1, 2 & 3 Directions what to write for the seven churches, Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamus, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea as well as for us.
Rev. 4 Visions of heaven.
Rev. 5 Jesus Christ opens the book sealed with seven seals.
Rev. 6 Six of the seven seals are opened.
Rev. 7 The number of them that were marked with the seal of the living God and clothed in white robes. 144,000 from the twelve tribes. Plus a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues.
Rev. 8 The seventh seal is opened which is the seven angels with trumpets. Four trumpets are sounded. The three woes.
Rev. 9 Upon the fifth trumpet being blown the bottomless pit is opened. The sixth angel sounded the trumpet.
Rev. 10 John is told to eat the book (the Bible) so as to prophecy (preach) to many nations, and peoples, and tongues, and kings.
Rev. 11 The two witnesses that testify for Christ in Jerusalem during the 42 months of tribulations. The beast that ascends out of the abyss (bottomless pit or hell) kills the two witnesses. They lie dead in the streets of the great city for three and a half days until they are taken up to heaven. A great earthquake happens and the tenth part of the city fell. Which is the second woe that has past, the third woe will come quickly. The seventh angel sounded the trumpet.
Rev. 12 The vision of the woman clothed with the sun refers to both Mary and Christ's church. God prepares a place for His church in the wilderness during the 42 months of tribulation. It mentions Michael and his angels casting the dragon and his angels out of heaven but this happened before Eve took a bite of the apple cause in this chapter the dragon is also described as the old serpent, the devil and Satan.
Rev. 13 The description of the beast that all the earth was in admiration. His mark on their right hand, or on their foreheads. His number is 666.
Rev. 14 Jesus Christ stands on mount Sion with His 144,000 saints. The third woe. An angel cries judgement day has come. Another angel followed, saying Babylon is fallen. Babylon may signify all the wicked world or it may be some particular city. The reapers begin the harvest.
Rev. 15 Speaks of the seven angels having the seven last plagues. Plus those that had overcome the beast by glorifying God.
Rev. 16 The seven vials of plagues are poured out. The dragon, the beast and the false prophet go forth unto the kings of the whole earth, to gather them together into a place called Armagedon to battle against the great day of the Almighty God. The great Babylon comes too.
Rev. 17 One of the seven angels, who had the seven vials gives John a vision. The vision of the harlot Babylon and of the beast upon which she sits. The ten horns or ten kings shall fight with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. The ten kings shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her with fire. The harlot Babylon is described as a great city.
Rev. 18 The great city Babylon falls within an hour. The kings of the earth lament over her.
Rev. 19 The saints glorify God for his judgments on the great harlot Babylon. Jesus Christ's victory over the beast and the kings of the earth.
Rev. 20 This vision speaks of satan being bound in the bottomless pit and the saints that reign in heaven with Christ for a thousand years. Which we see from chapter 9 has already happened (at Christ's death and resurrection). Satan is loosed to gather the nations, Gog, and Magog to battle. Who ever was not found written in the book of life, God casts them into the pool of fire.
Rev. 21 A new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth was gone, and the sea is now no more. The new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God. The new Jerusalem is described to John by one of the seven angels, who had the vials full of the seven last plagues. Only those that are written in the book of life of the Lamb shall enter the new Jerusalem.
Rev. 22 The angel shows John a vision of the water and the tree of life. John falls down to adore him but the angel tells him not to but adore God. Blessed are they that wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb: that they may have a right to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
God bless
MikeI'm a bit confused about the reapers in Rev 14, for in verse 19 it states, "And the angel swung his sickle to the earth, and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God." I have to assume the "clusters from the vine of the EARTH" would not mean the clusters from the vine of Christ, because in verse 20 "blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles." Also, I still can't understand why the millenial reign would be in heaven. If all of us were removed from the earth, Satan would not have need to be bound. Also, what brings the saints to the holy city on earth that ends up surrounded by Satan and his deceived nations after the millenial reign? I don't see us coming back to earth, but rather, never leaving it during the millenial reign.
Okay guys if satan has not already been cast into the bottomless pit then why when the fifth trumpet is blown the bottomless pit will be opened?
I can't imagine God allowing the bottomless pit to be opened for the beast to ascend out of it to kill the two witnesses then casting satan in at the same time. No, both satan and the beast are loosed out of the bottomless pit at the sounding of the fifth trumpet.Yes, the beast that comes up out of the abyss (the bottomless pit) is the second beast, the antichrist. He reigns even beyond when the two witnesses are killed. Babylon falls when the two witnesses are resurrected. The beast and false prophet are not thrown into the LOF until the end of the battle of Har-Magedon. That's when Satan is bound for the thousand years. This is why thinking the thousand years began at Jesus' death is highly questionable, because the antichrist and false prophet haven't yet reigned, nor have the two witnesses been killed and resurrected/ascended into heaven. Babylon hasn't fallen, nor has the battle of Har-Magedon happened. All of this has to happen prior to the thousand year millenial reign.
Dear Judahs Daughter. We can agree to disagree as you say concerning having different interpretations of scripture for when and where salvation comes, is of no importance. What is important is that salvation does come. When we interpret scripture we should remember that when Jesus and the disciples were preaching the things that they were preaching. They were speaking to a group of people that was not very well educated. Jesus wanted "them" to understand his message. The only parables that Jesus spoke was the ones that the most educated listeners would not understand. The simple minded people understood it for it is a simple message. when we reject the simple answer and continue searching for another more complex answer, all that is to be found is confusion. Jesus said that we must accept the kingdom of God as little children. And may God bless us all
Yes, we cry out Abba, Father ~ Amen!!
By analytically examining Chapters 16, 19 and 20 clearly shows that these three chapters are all representing "THE BATTLE OF ARMAGEDDON" This is true. Not an INTERPRETATION. The ramifications of this fact is scary!!!! Either the battle of Armageddon is over a 1000 years in the future OR The first resurrection and Rapture has already happened 1000 years in our past history. Ya gotta butter your bread on one side or the other!!!! Cain't go back and forth. Analytically this is what the bible that CHRISTIANS say that they stand upon actually says. 1900 years of thousands of interpretations have clouded our vision. Ya can't butter your bread on both sides without gettin buter on your hands when ya pick it up. And that is a fact, NOT an interpretation. Interpretations are like smelly arm pits,... every one has at least two. BUT there is but one truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Or it's neither one. People seem to believe that the battle of Armageddon is THE final battle, when it's actually not. The battle of Armageddon happens, and that is when Christ returns. The beast and false prophet are tossed into the lake of fire, and Satan is bound for the thousand years.
AFTER the millenial reign of Christ, Satan is let loose to have his final shot at overcoming God, Jesus Christ, and the saints. THIS is the final battle, that will happen 1,000 years after the battle of Armageddon.
I do appreciate your comment .... In Chapter 16 the beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. In chapter 19 the beast and false prophet are still hanging around so chapter 19 has to have happened either before or at the same time as the battle described in chapter 16. How is this so far? At the end of Chapter 20 Satan deceives the kings of the earth to gather them together.... In chapter 16 evil spirits come out of the mouths of the The dragon,the beast,and False Prophet to gather the kings together. If this is not enough to tie all three together ... In C19 which is tied to 16,... All men free and bond etc, die, the angel invites the birds of the air to the supper of the great God. Then the angel says "IT IS DONE" And in C. 21 after this great battle described in C 20 ... 21:6 "And he said unto me, IT IS DONE. I AM Alpha and Omega...." There is just too much circumstantial evidence tying these three battles together for me to Interpret this any other way. 2Peter 1:20 says there is no private interpretation where prophesy is concerned. I believe that the events described in C. 14, the harvesting of the earth would fit the criteria for the first resurrection and the beginning of the millennial kingdom. Remember also that the 1000 years that Satan is bound in the pit are contained within the 42 months that the beast is given to blaspheme the Lord. And when the two witnesses are killed the seventh vial is poured out. the seventh trumpet is sounded. And in C. 16 the sixth vial is poured out. If I'm on the JURY, I vote Guilty. These three chapters were hanging out together. I will also say that if you have overwhelming evidence to the contrary I would love to hear it. I wish I were wrong with what I have come to believe. Please convince me otherwise. But "Cause that's the way I believe" won't convince me. And I want to be convinced otherwise.
Jerami, Chapter 16 is the fall of Babylon (the Great City), but the beast and false prophet are not mentioned to be cast into the Lake of fire in this chapter. You might want to read it again. They are thrown in the LOF after the battle of Har-Magedon in Chapter 19. This will answer a lot of your statements above, including the "frogs" that come out of the three beasts. The three beasts are 1) the beast that comes up out of the sea (the dragon/Satan), 2) the beast that comes up out of the abyss (the antichrist), and 3) the beast with two horns like a lamb (the false prophet). The three beasts are active right up until the end of the battle of Har-Magedon in Chapter 19. So, there's the fall of Babylon in Chapter 16, the battle of Har-Magedon in Chapter 19 (the antichrist and false prophet into the LOF, Satan bound, and the beginning of the millenial riegn), and the final battle in Chapter 20 (Satan and unbelievers into the LOF). The 42 months and the millenial reign cannot coincide together as the antichrist reings during the 42 months, but is in the LOF during the millenial reign. I hope this helps.
The Revelation given to Yochanan is NOT in a chronological order.
Anymore than the scriptures are bound together in the book called a "Bible" are in a chronological order.
Many (not all) of the scriptures written by the Hebrews are not written that way, even within a particular book all by itself they are NOT in some sort of "order" like we do things in America. They do NOT think like us.
Hebrews to NOT write that way.
Never have.Jerami
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Can you please make some paragraph breaks?
Please excuse my uneducatedness. Who is Yoshana? I Am a simple man who reads scripture as a Child would. If I am going to stand on it I should read it. And if I have faith in Jesus I should believe his words above all others. If there is error between his words and his disciples words who's words am I to believe? If God is going to speak on this forum I think that this would be a good thing to address. Oh we gotta interpret the message Jesus gave so that it fits with what Saul said.
My point that I was trying to make is that if the the Lord sent a prophet with a message to mankind,
Mankind would not recognize him a true prophet. Because the message would not agree with what we think that we need to hear. A prophet seems to come when correction is needed. Mankind does not want what we need the most.One thought just occurred to me. Many believe the battle of Armageddon is the final battle, because we have Satan's armies gathering, and then we have Christ descending from Heaven on a white horse, with the saints close behind. This battle ushers in the Millenial reign of Christ. If anyone has a visual imagination (like I do) then the image that might come to mind is one of a huge battle scene.
1,000 years later the final battle will happen, and looking at the Bible it's rather anti-climatic (as most people know it.) Satan gathers his armies, they march to the location (city) of the saints. God causes fire to rain from the sky, killing Satan's army.
or to paraphrase.
Fiery rocks fall; "everybody" dies.
It's almost as if Armageddon could really be the final battle. When Satan is released after the thousand years that would represent his last ditch effort. Actually, this is paralleled in movies all the time. Good guy and bad guy fight, good guy defeats bad guy; bad guy seems to be dead; bad guy wakes up, makes one last ditch effort; good guy kills bad guy for good.
I also just read Rev 16 again, and the Beast and False Prophet are NOT tossed in the LOF in that chapter. They are tossed in the LOF in chapter 19.
Rev 19:20
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
THIS right here is evidence that the millennial reign of Christ and the 42 months of the Beast and false prophet cannot coincide together.That's correct, except that the battle of Har-Magedon ushers in the millenial reign, so it can't be the same battle as after the millenial riegn. There are two. The first one is where Jesus destroys with the Word of His mouth; the second He destroys all with fire from heaven. After the battle of Har-Magedon, there must be some unbelievers or fence-straddlers still living or born throughout the millenial reign because these are the nations Satan deceives and gathers together when he is released for that one last-ditch effort and is destroyed by fire from heaven. Then, the second resurrection, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment happens (when all evil is cast into the Lake of Fire) and the new heaven and new earth come to fruition. God bless ~~
True, but the actual final FINAL battle is more like Satan's final ditch effort, his death knell (so to speak). He gathers up his armies, and they're just complete obliterated by God's fire from the sky. There's really not that much of a battle.
I picture these millions of people gathering in the city to kill the saints, and just as they arrive fire rains from the sky, and kills them all.
Anyway, this is an area that I can accept both views (it being the final battle, or it being an extension of the final battle) The important thing is that after the final battle (either one) Jesus Christ/God reigns.Exactly. I don't think there's going to even be an actual battle at the end, because there's no detail of it, other than Satan and his armies attempt to start the battle, but are destroyed before they can. Our God reigns!! Hallelujiah!
Continuing on with millennial reign of Christ, and why I believe it hasn't occurred yet.
First the obvious, Christ has not returned to earth yet. But, some say that Christ and the saints are supposed to be reigning from Heaven. This can't be possible, because during the millennial reign Satan and his angels are supposed to be chained (they can no longer deceive people.)
This age (the death of Christ, the birth of the Church to now) has seen the birth of all sorts of crazy religions and beliefs.
I believe that during the reign of Christ, those who do not believe will stay with the religion or way they are familiar with. Those on the fence will be confronted with the true way, or another (false) way. The important thing is this; during the millennial reign NO "NEW" religions will arise.
Also, the reign is supposed to be an era of peace. In Isaiah we have the verse about the wolf laying down with the lamb. I believe that this is symbolic of the believer and the non-believer, or in this case (since it's a wolf) the false teacher living in peace. Why? Because the false teacher (wolf) is shut up, and tamed. It CAN'T hurt the sheep.
So far this has not happened yet.Ya caught me. I accidentally switched the Chapter numbers. The same analogy would still apply.
Lets assume that the
seven seals all are opened,
seven trumpet judgments are all sounded,
seven vials are all poured out
within the last seven years of this church age.
The two witnesses are sent out for 1260 days and they are given power to shut the skies that it rain not in the days of their prophesy, and to smite the earth with all plagues as often as they will.
AS MANY DROUGHTS AS THEY WILL ????????
This would twenty different judgments inflicted upon mankind within a very short period of time.
seal judgments ... hunger wars pestilence earthquakes vol
Trumpet judgments volcano, hail and fire burns all the grass, A great volcano, a third of the waters turned to poison, the sun and stars lost their strength, and locust with scorpion heads for tails swarmed over the earth. 1st vial soars broke out on mankind worse than the black plague of the 14 century, and the sea turns to blood also the rivers and streams. And the sun straightened and scorched mankind (previously the sun shined not for a fourth part of it??) And the seat of the beast was burned up.
Not only does this sound like too much stuff to be going on in a very short period of time (seven years) Would anyone have time have a chance to repent. This doesn't seem to be the way a loving and patient God would do things. This sounds like 10,000 machine guns shooting a duck in a barrel.
This all happens before the sixth vial is poured out. I am pretty sure that God did not switch the numbers of the vial judgments. The 6th is still before the 7th When the 6th vial is poured out Satan the beast and False prophet are seen in the river bed when the Euphrates is dried up.
After hurriedly dumping all 18 judgments out within a seven year period. God waits until a 1000 years and a little season passes to sound the seventh trumpet and pour out the seventh vial judgment. This interpretation is too hard for me to believe. It makes more sense to me for my loving, patient God to stretch all of this out over the past 1900 years imposing A punishment and waiting for some repentance and then another punishment and patience and etc. I find this easier to believe. But we can agree to disagree. Everyone on earth can have their own interpretation, We can each create a truth that we can each be comfortable with ????? NOT ! He is who he is. He did what he said he would do ! And here we areIn order to understand the book of Rev. we must first understand the book of Daniel. Daniel had his first visions concerning the four beast that rise up out of the sea around 559. (four kingdoms that receive dominion over the earth. Babylonian, Persian, Grecian and Roman Empire). The Antichrist that everyone talks about... according to Gabriel... was a king belonging to the fourth kingdom (Roman Empire). That is until someone interpreted him into Daniels far far away future. Around 538 BC Daniel had his vision (C9) in which Gabriel said that they were going to kill the Messiah after 62 weeks. 564, 566, or 568 years later they did. Is that fact so unimportant that it deserves absolutely no attention.If so why was it even written down? By following this equation when reading prophesy, 42 months would be approx. equal to 1642 years. How many truths can we just ignore or interpret away.
The seven seals and six of seven trumpets of the seventh seal are all sounded before the beasts show up in Chapter 13. I believe the 42 months begins when the second beast reigns (the antichrist). The resurrection of the two witnesses and "thief in the night" (rapture of the Church) happen after the seventh trumpet of the seventh seal sounds, between the 6th and 7th bowls of that final trumpet, which is when Babylon falls. The antichrist and false prophet are still around until the battle of Har-Magedon and so forth...so, Daniel's prophecies, including Jesus' death (in the 62nd week) have been right on and true ~~ still more to come, for the Great Tribulation is said to be the 70th week of Daniel.
Judah's Daughter the confusion would probably end if you could just realize the fact that the 1,000 years that satan was bound in the bottomless pit and the saints reign in heaven with Christ has been happening since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just try looking at it with that perspective for a bit.
God bless
MikeAsk any Jew; they will tell you they expected the Messiah to come to reign on earth. That's why they didn't recognize Jesus when He came as the "suffering servant". Satan and the false prophets are still too busy on earth to believe Satan has been bound since the resurrection of Christ. I just can't believe ruling in heaven does anything to bring peace on earth, for peace is not here, but war. Just look at what's happening in Jerusalem right now, let alone everywhere else??? God bless you, too.
Before farmers decide as to when to harvest they watch the crops. When they are becoming ready he will pick the first fruits. He picks a few bushels to deliver to his potential customers. The best of the best, the blemishless fruit are delivered to the most important customer. A short time later when the majority of the crops are ripe he will go through and pick all that he can as fast as he can. Then he will have a second harvest. The 144000 that are redeemed from among men are a small portion the multitude which are the first fruits. These 144000 are the blemishless first fruits intended for Jesus ("Most favored customer") Chapter 14 describes the first resurrection (or first harvest). At this time the 1000 year reign begins. I believe that this is literally 1000 years. Satan is bound but his subordinates are not. Before Satan is bound he gives power to the beast that rises up out of the sea. This beast carries on Satan's business. And when Satan gets out of his Jail, he joins up with the beast and false prophet to gather them together to Battle as described in C 16, 19 and 20. Fire comes down from heaven, everyone is harvested. the wheat are separated from the tares. This is the second harvest. It is Done. The farmer (Jesus) builds a bigger house and a bigger Barn, everybody lives happily for ever after in the new house that Jesus built for his servants. Amen
The beast that rises up out of the sea is supposedly the Dragon or Satan (using the peoples, nations, tribes and tongues. He gives power to the second beast that comes up out of the abyss (the antichrist) who is honored by the third beast with two horns (the false prophet). The antichrist and false prophet are cast into the LOF at the beginning of the milennial reign. Satan is bound then as well. There's no way Satan can reunite with the other two beasts when he is released, for they are in the LOF a thousand years earlier and aren't coming out...
There are two resurrections, one at the beginning of the millenial reign (the believers), and one at the end of the millenial reign (the unbelievers). It doesn't appear that the harvest is the first resurrection, that I can see...but, it could be, considering some of the chapters in Revelation are summaries of the events, while others detail the events.The beast that rises up out of the sea in C 13 can not be Satan (Dragon) because Satan gives power and his seat to this beast that is seen rising up out of the sea. And youre right the second resurrection is only for the unbelievers, after the first resurrection all believers rest from their labors and their works do follow them (Go to heaven)
The antichrist is said to be given power by the Dragon (that comes up out of the sea). It's the antichrist that sits in the very throne of Jerusalem (the abomination of desolation). The false prophet causes all the nations to worship the antichrist. This is in Revelation 13:4. Verses 5-10 talk about the antichrist. Verse 11 is about the false prophet that causes all to worship him. There are only two visible beasts in Revelation (the antichrist and false prophet). The Dragon (Satan) is a system of people, nations, tribes and tongues that empower the antichrist. At least, that's how I perceive it ~~ I still am not convinced that those in first resurrection that reign with Christ do so in heaven, but on earth...
In Rev 12:5 the man child was caught up to heaven. And the woman was carried away into the wilderness. This woman is not the Church or Mary.
The Hebrew nation has been referred to by God as his adulterous wife. This woman is that Hebrew nation that ceased to exist around 138 AD. The adulterous wife of God, (the father of Jesus Christ) is the woman in this picture. The Church did not exist when this man child was caught up to his father. Jesus Christ established the church not the other way around. For the Church to say that it gave birth to Jesus Christ is blasphemy. And besides this fact, If the church is going to be the bride of Christ, would He marry his mother? That would be incest.
The adulterous wife of God is the woman in this story. The twelve stars represent the twelve tribes of Israel. And went that Hebrew Nation was carried away being sold into slavery through out the rest of the Roman Empire (138 AD) is when the 1260 days begin. 1260 days later (1642 earth years) the Hebrew people began migrating back into the Holy Land.Well, I see the Woman repesentative of Mary who gave birth to Jesus, the male child that was caught up into heaven. Satan tries to devour the Woman's offspring (the children of God); she could be the Jewish nations that are led into the wilderness during that 42 months (just 1/3), as there is prophecy that 2/3 is cut off (persecuted?), for it also states that Satan tries to destroy her with a flood (could represent people, just as the "sea" in Rev 13 does), but he doesn't succeed. He gets enraged and goes to make war with the "rest of her offspring" which are described as those who "keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus". That's why the Woman appears to be Mary, who gave birth to the Son, who is the ROCK of the church, who is the bride of Christ.
What you guys are missing is that in reality we could be as close as three and a half years plus a day from judgment day. Not a thousand and three and a half years. The man of sin or the antichrist has to sit in the temple first. The antichrist and false prophet are one and the same, a man. Rev. 16 speaks of the dragon (satan), the beast and the false prophet.
Matthew writes this,
Matthew 24:21-35 "21 For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. 22 And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. 24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. 25 Behold I have told it to you, beforehand. 26 If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. 27 For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. 28 Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. 29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty. 31 And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. 32 And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh. 33 So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. 34 Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass."
Many including myself believe that we are that generation.Yes, amen. I believe the church will be raptured (though some do not) at the fall of Babylon (which could be anytime very soon). The one-world government is in the works, which many believe to be the beast that comes up out of the sea. This will give reign to the son of perdition, who will be revealed. We are on the brink of all these things about to take place very soon (most likely in the next 3-10 years), so I feel...there are some excellent presentations about the feast of trumpets and even the eclypse of the sun/moon to come shortly, that align the end times for the church to that of the Jewish wedding feast. The groom takes His bride behind the doors for seven days, which they feel is the seven-year tribulation period. We need to be alert, as we are ~ we are studying and paying attention, so we are ready and the day does not come on us as a thief, per the Word. Amen!!
I added this to my last post just after you replied to it Judah's Daughter.
The antichrist and false prophet are one and the same, a man. Rev. 16 speaks of the dragon (satan), the beast and the false prophet.
How do they get 7 years for the tribulation period?
Do you mind if I offer you this commentary on the Second Coming and Rapture Judah's Daughter?
God bless
MikeThank you, Mike. I read it all!!
When you study the feast of trumpets and the Jewish marriage, the terminology of “not knowing the day nor the hour” is used. This is a clue to the disciples and to us. Yes, it will be as a thief in the night, but based on the following scriptures, it won’t come as a surprise to those who are awake and alert, watching the signs:
1 Thes 5:2 "For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night." Verse 4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;"
Rev 3:3 "So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you."
Rev 16:15 "("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see his shame.")
Regarding the rapture (catching up of the saints), Luke 17:24 mentions lightning; 1 Thes 4:16 mentions the trump of God; 1 Cor 15:51 mentions the last trumpet. The seventh (last) trumpet sounds in Rev 11:15. The thief in the night is mentioned in Rev 16:15 (between the sixth and seventh bowls of the final trumpet). The ascension of the two witnesses is followed by lightning, thunder, an earthquake and hailstorm. In Rev 16:16, right after the “thief in the night”, we see the lightning, thunder, an earthquake and hailstorm, which is upon the Great City (Babylon). That's why I think we're leaving then, but I don't claim that to be fact, of course! Revelation is prophecy that cannot fully be understood until after the fact.
Regarding three comings of Christ, I believe this to be true. I wrote a hub to document all of this called “In the Air-On the Earth”. The angels told the disciples that Jesus would return just as he left (and it wasn’t on a white horse with armies). That will be the second coming of Christ (for the Church). The final coming of Christ would be to fight the battle of Har-Magedon (on the white horse with the armies of heaven). We do need to stay alert and ready, for no ~ we don’t know the exact day nor the hour (though some Jews believe they do, based on the feast of trumpets and the sun and moon signs predicted by NASA, and based on historical Jewish events that align with NASA’s information). It is fascinating.Yeah what you are describing here is judgment day when they make battle against the great day of the Almighty God and just before the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem comes down from God. Here I'll post the most relevant verses that you mentioned.
1 Thes 4:16 "Then we who are alive, who are left, shall be taken up together with them in the clouds to meet Christ, into the air, and so shall we be always with the Lord."
1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed."
Rev 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded the trumpet: and there were great voices in heaven, saying: The kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen."
Three verses later Rev 11:18 says "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth."The reason why I underlined "he shall reign for ever and ever" and bolded "judged" is because just these two verses alone prove Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series about a pre-trib rapture and a future millennial reign of Christ that last for just 1,000 years to be fiction.
What I find ironic is that both Jerami's preterist view as well as Judah's Daughter's rapture/future millennialist view both require 3 comings of Jesus Christ. But this is not Biblical. When Jesus Christ returns it will be for good and it will be judgment day.
But we were given free will to either follow the interpretation of man or the Word of God. Choose well.Mike, I tried to no avail to use the formatting tips, so I will quote you and reply here:
You said, “Yeah what you are describing here is judgment day when they make battle against the great day of the Almighty God and just before the new heaven and earth and the new Jerusalem comes down from God. Here I'll post the most relevant verses that you mentioned.”
Response: No, I'm describing the rapture of the church and the rewarding of the saints. This happens before the wrath of God falls (beginning with Babylon and leading to Har-Magedon). The Great White throne judgment doesn't happen until after the millennial reign and the defeat of Satan's last attempt to surround the holy city (when he is released from the bottomless pit).
You said, “1 Cor 15:51-52 "Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed.”
Response: First of all, you've twice now written 1 Cor 15:51 differently than is in fourteen other versions of the Bible. No where else does it say we shall not all be changed. Biblos.com ~ look at 14 of 15 versions that state all will be changed (except for DRB). I'm wondering if this isn't the problem all around ~ that the Bible you use is not the same as the Bible we use??
You said, “Three verses later says "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth."
Response: Notice the rewarding of the saints (rapture) and the judgment of the earth (the wrath of God) beginning with Babylon.
You said, “The reason why I underlined "he shall reign for ever and ever" and bolded "judged" is because just these two verses alone prove Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series about a pre-trib rapture and a future millennial reign of Christ that last for just 1,000 years to be fiction.”
Response: I haven’t read Tim LaHay’s Left Behind series and don’t let it influence my study results. Seems to me all the scriptures that talk about one being taken and one being left behind are being ignored by you? Jesus will reign forever and ever, as the saints will be with him forevermore. When He comes back to fight the battle of Har-Magedon, He wins simply by the word of His mouth. He sets up the millennial reign and destroys Satan at the end of the millennial reign. Does that not sound like He rules for ever and ever? Is there some interruption of ruling here?
You said, “What I find ironic is that both Jerami's preterist view as well as Judah's Daughter's rapture/future millennialist view both require 3 comings of Jesus Christ. But this is not Biblical. When Jesus Christ returns it will be for good and it will be judgment day.
Response: IF the Bible is TRUE, 1) Jesus was born as a baby; 2) Jesus will return in the like manner as He left (which was not on a horse with armies); 3) Jesus will indeed come back on a white horse with armies to fight the battle of Har-Magedon. For the saints, there is only one more coming. For the judged, there are two ~ does that make a bit more sense?
You said, “But we were given free will to either follow the interpretation of man or the Word of God. Choose well.”
Response: To make such a statement is judgmental, Mike. All of us interpreting the Bible are "Man", and I can no more accuse you of this than you should of others. We all love God and are doing our best to rightly divide the Word of truth. We need to stay precisely with the Word and not commentaries or traditional teachings. Obviously, your Bible is different, too ~ so, I can understand why there would absolutely be some differences in interpretation. Will you recheck that verse in 1 Cor 15:51 please? Again, check out Biblos.com, which will give you 15 versions of a verse side-by-side.
Here's the videos of the feast of trumpets and the alignment with Revelation's prophecy with the marriage feast, for we see the marriage feast of the Lamb also mentioned in Revelation. This includes where the "day nor the hour" terminology comes from and what it means. This is truly revealing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOegf-ixvWo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y_fI_LF01A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhJ8c5fjKj8
Yes, amen. I believe the church will be raptured (though some do not) at the fall of Babylon (which could be anytime very soon). The one-world government is in the works, which many believe to be the beast that comes up out of the sea. This will give reign to the son of perdition, who will be revealed. We are on the brink of all these things about to take place very soon (most likely in the next 3-10 years), so I feel...there are some excellent presentations about the feast of trumpets and even the eclypse of the sun/moon to come shortly, that align the end times for the church to that of the Jewish wedding feast. The groom takes His bride behind the doors for seven days, which they feel is the seven-year tribulation period. We need to be alert, as we are ~ we are studying and paying attention, so we are ready and the day does not come on us as a thief, per the Word. Amen!!
I would suggest anyone to listen to a young person reading as if they were playing a part in a play, have them read Matt. 23 and 24. The words coming out of the mouth of Jesus, must be the foundation of our belief system,If we are believing in HIM. If something does not fit on your belief system, it doesn't belong there. and it will not make any sense when you are finished building. If we are believing in Paul more than Jesus then let what Paul says be the foundation of our belief system.
Jesus said he came to save (minister to) the lost sheep of Israel, the Jews (Mat 15:24). Paul is the apostle to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles. This is why we must consider all the books of the New Testament, even the prophecy of John in the Book of Revelation, for this addressed the Jews and Gentiles, as well as the entire world (the unsaved).
I believe that everything written if Daniel chapter 9 has happened exactly the way that Gabriel(A Messenger from God)said that it would. This is a mathematical equation that the Lord God has given to all that will listen. I believe that Jesus is the son of God ,He is God) This is my foundation regardless of what anyone else has said. This is my foundation and if something does not fit on that foundation then I have found a false interpretation that I must re think.
Who said Jesus is not God and the Son of God? This is my foundation as well. He is the Savior of the Jews and Gentiles, but He stated He came to the lost sheep of Israel, as I gave you the scripture reference to prove that. The Apostle Paul wrote 25% of the New Testament, and we shouldn't disregard what he says, any more than you don't disregard Daniel (who was not Jesus). All the prophets, Jesus and the apostles are the building of the New Jerusalem! The 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel are written on the 12 gates; the names of the 12 apostles are written on the foundation stones of the wall, and Jesus is the chief corner stone! Paul was not originally of the 12 disciples/apostles, but was chosen nonetheless, to write as much of the New Testament as he did. Amen.
The antichrist and false prophet cannot be the same, for they are described differently in Revelation. The antichrist is the beast that comes up out of the abyss. The name of the angel (the king of the abyss) is Abaddon/Apollyon (meaning destroyer). Destroyer means Perdition; he is the "son of perdition" (Rev 9:11 and 17:8). The false prophet is described in Rev 13:11 who comes up out of the earth, having two horns like a lamb, and he spoke as a dragon (but he is not the dragon). We see the three entities divided in Revelation 16:13 where three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of each the dragon, the antichrist (beast) and the false prophet. This is why the Catholic church has been accused of being the beast because of the system that has a man at its head who claims to have the authority of God on earth. However, I don't believe the Catholic church is not of God, for their foundational beliefs teach God the Creator, that Jesus is God, born of a virgin; died on a cross and was resurrected. That is the gospel, whether they have questionable doctrines or not ~ what church doesn't? I'm a protestant, but I don't judge them this way.
The Catholic church also believes in some very questionable doctrines; the confessional ("I stole something, Father" "Say five Heil Mary's and you shall be redeemed.") The doctrine of bringing Jesus down everytime they have communion. Way back they used to burn people if they didn't say "YES THAT COOKIE IS JESUS CHRIST, AND IT IS NOT SYMBOLIC!"
I used to be like you, not believing that the Catholic church could be the Beast, until I re-read Revelation. It's very symbolic, but there's one part in which the angel informs John about the meaning of the vision; and in this case it's concerning the Great Whore. The Beast with the seven heads is the City that sits on 7 hills/mountains. The only city that fits that criteria is Rome. The woman/whore represents the religion of that place.
Roman Catholicism was born in Rome.
Also, it seems that whenever a woman or women are mentioned in pairs they always represent something. In Proverbs we have Wisdom, and Folly; both depicted as female. Now in Revelation we have the pregnant woman and the whore.
The pregnant woman is Israel who gave birth to Christ. (Figuratively) The whore is Rome who gave birth to Roman Catholicism.
On the note concerning Daniel and the angel Gabriel. The book of Daniel mentions that an entity will arise who will place himself above all the host, and take away the daily offering/sacrifice. I know some people take this to be a future event, but it's not.
175BC -164BC saw the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the Seleucid Empire. He actually changed his name so it would mean "God manifest" and this was something no other Hellenistic king had ever done before.
In 167BC he attacked Jerusalem, executed several Jewish people; outlawed the worship of the Jewish God, and commanded people to worship Zeus; and he outlawed the daily offering.
Coincidence? I think not.Not quite:
Edinburgh – 'Athens of the North'
Edinburgh, Scotland's capital is located on the east coast at the mouth of the Firth of Forth and has a population of around 450,000. Like Rome it is built on seven hills and its spectacular skyline is dominated by the famous Castle, the extinct volcano Arthur's Seat, Grecian colonnades and a dizzying array of spires.
Edinburgh is the home of Scottish Presbyterianism. Maybe you need look no further for your whore. (Try Rose Street on a Saturday night!)Here we go.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession as seen in the Bible.
John 20:21-23 "21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist as seen in the Bible. This is also the daily Sacrifice from Daniel that will be taken away in the end times that you mention below.
John 6:54-55 "54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."
From List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ci … even_hills
* Amman, Jordan
* Asunción, Paraguay
* Bamberg, Germany
* Barcelona, Catalonia, said to be built on Mont Tàber, La Rovira, El Coll, El Carmel, La Peira, El Putxet and Montjuïc
* Bath, England
* Budapest, Hungary
* Cagliari, Sardinia
* Ceuta, Spain
* Cincinnati, Ohio, United States
* Dunedin, New Zealand
* Edinburgh, Scotland
* Gorzow, Poland
* Guaranda, Ecuador
* Iaşi, Romania
* Istanbul, Turkey (see Seven hills of Istanbul)
* Jerusalem, Israel
* Kampala, Uganda built on Mengo, Lubaga, Namirembe, Old Kampala, Kibuli, Nakasero and Makerere
* Kiev, Ukraine
* Lisbon, Portugal
* Los Angeles, California, United States
* Lynchburg, Virginia, United States
* Lviv, Ukraine
* Macau
* Mecca, Saudi Arabia
* Melbourne, Australia
* Moscow, Russia
* Nevada City, California, United States, built on Piety, Lost, Prospect, Aristocracy, Boulder, Nabob, and Buckeye Hills
* Plovdiv, Bulgaria
* Prague, Czech Republic, said to be built on seven or nine hills: Hradčany, Vítkov, (Opyš), Větrov, Skalka, (Emauzy), Vyšehrad, Karlov and Petřín
* Providence, Rhode Island, built on Christian Hill, College Hill, Constitution Hill, Federal Hill, Smith Hill, Tockwotten Hill, and Weybosset Hill.
* Pula, Croatia
* Richmond, Virginia, United States, built on numerous hills and escarpments to include Union Hill, Church Hill, Council Hill, Shockoe Hill, Gambles Hill, Navy Hill and Oregon Hill.
* Rome, Georgia, United States
* Rome, Italy (see Seven hills of Rome)
* Saint-Etienne, France
* Saint Paul, Minnesota, United States
* San Francisco, California, United States (see List of hills in San Francisco, California)
* Seattle, Washington, United States (see Seven hills of Seattle)
* Sheffield, England
* Somerville, Massachusetts, United States
* Tallahassee, Florida, United States
* Tehran, Iran
* Thiruvananthapuram, India
* Tirumala, India
* Torquay, England
* Turku, Finland
* Worcester, Massachusetts, United States, built on Airport Hill, Bancroft Hill, Belmont Hill, Grafton Hill, Green Hill, Pakachoag Hill, and Vernon Hill.
* Zevenbergen, Netherlands
Nice try.
No Catholicism was born in Roman Palestine just about 2,000 years ago. In Greek Catholic means Universal. It is called Roman Catholicism because Peter the first Pope, the one that Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom of heaven to (Matthew 16:19) had his ministry in Rome and was martyred there.
No the pregnant woman is Mary who gave birth to Christ. But in Rev. 12 the woman is referring to both Mary and Christ's church (the bride of Christ). This is very significant at this time because God wants to make known in the world an increased devotion to the Blessed Virgin, similar to what Martin Luther had. When the daily Sacrifice is taken away during the tribulation the Holy Rosary will become very important.
In Rev. 17 and 18 the harlot (not whore) Babylon is described as a great city. In Rev. 11 Jerusalem is also described as a great city. I don't know, I'll let you decide.
Now this is interesting. Antiochus was one of the four generals that took over when Alexander the Great died. He persecuted the Jews for 1260 days during the times of the Machabees. Antiochus is mentioned in 1 Machabees & 2 Machabees 62 times.
Parallel to this is the fact that in the end days Christians will be persecuted for Jesus sake during the 1260 days of tribulation. The daily Sacrifice of the Holy Eucharist will be taken away during this time.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to post this Sanctus Vesania.
Thanks Paraglider. That was funny about Rose Street.
God bless
MikeI don't think the daily sacrifice has anything to do with Catholicism. It's completely JEWISH. Jerusalem is JEWISH. Babylon, on the other hand, appears to the the Harlot (the Great City who rides the beast). The antichrist is the king over that City, the king of Babylon.
Actually Revelation 16:13 in both the King James Protestant Bible and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible mentions the dragon, the beast and the false prophet.
King James
Rev. 16:13 "And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."
Douay-Rheims
Rev. 16:13 "And I saw from the mouth of the dragon, and from the mouth of the beast, and from the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs."
We see in 1 John & 2 John that there are many antichrists, "who denieth that Jesus is the Christ" or "who denieth the Father, and the Son". But one, which is a man will sit in the temple as if he were God, as we see in 2 Thessalonians 2. The false prophet or the antichrist or the man of sin or the son of perdition are all one in the same.
God bless
Mike
Ha, I still believe the Catholic church is the whore of Babylon. Right now I'm a bit too tired to get into (much)
Daniel is told to seal up something, and is it a coincidence that 1 and 2 Machabees are considered a part of the Apocrypha.
Doubtful. First we need to look at the symbolism. We have the woman who has the crown of twelve stars around her head. A very similar image appears in Genesis:
Genesis 37:9
9And he (Joseph) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
Joseph and his eleven brothers would become the 12 tribes of Israel.
This same imagery appears in Revelation with the woman clothed with the sun and moon, and with the 12 stars around her head.
Also, the woman gives birth to Christ. I find it improbable that she would be both Jesus's mother, AND the bride. Last I checked wasn't incest frowned upon?
Now, I'm still doing research, but the Bible mentions that after the woman gives birth to Christ, that Satan (the dragon) tries to devour him, but Christ is taken up into Heaven. Then the Dragon is tossed out of Heaven, and goes after the woman; when he fails at destroying the woman he goes after her other children.
Rev 12:17
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
I have the strong belief that the events go as so.
Christ is born.
Satan sets out to destroy Christ.
Christ is killed, but Christ rises from the dead and ascends to father's throne in 40 days.
Satan is cast out of Heaven.
Satan goes after the woman/the nation that Jesus came from, and sets out to destroy her. When he fails he goes after her seed, the nations that came from Israel, who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ.1 and 2 Machabees are not part of the Apocrypha in the Catholic Bible. They are the last two books in the Old Testament.
I like how you drew a parallel between Joseph and his 11 brothers and the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars from Rev. 12.
I didn't say Mary was both Jesus's mother, and the bride. But she is part of His bride cause she is part of His church.
In Mary's canticle (Luke 1:46-55) she calls Him her Saviour.
Luke 1:46-55 "46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. 49 Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. 51 He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. 54 He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: 55 As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever."
I'm tired too. Good night.Hey, well Machabees is not in my Bible, so it's got to be in the Apocrypha. I have yet to get a Catholic Bible so I can find out if this is why they pray to saints and believe in pergatory, amongst many other practices that I don't find in my Bible.
The Catholic Bible does include the Apocrypha, but to them it's canon; so of course they're not going to say "Why yes, those books are of the Apocrypha."
I know I covered some of the their religious doctrines in my hub on my Carrie Bradshaw profile about Ronald Weinland (Church of God) who also believes the Catholic Church is the antichrist system. Ronald Weinland is indeed a false prophet, so I named the hub "A False Prophet of the Last Days?", but in there, I created a capsule just to address the protestant view of Catholicism (just a few things) that we find unscriptural. Most churches have doctrines or religious practices based on their leadership's beliefs, whether or not they're scriptural ~ at least that's my experience thus far...
Martin Luther didn't even take 1 and 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach and parts of Esther and Daniel out of the Protestant Bible. He removed those seven books and placed them in an appendix un-numbered during the reformation. They remained in the appendix of the Protestant Bibles until in 1825 the English Bible College removed them altogether.
This online version of the King James Bible says "Although the writings known as the Apocrypha are often not included in Protestant Bibles, they were translated and included in the original King James Bible of 1611, and they are offered here for use by interested readers." This online KJB also includes some books in the Apocrypha section which are not part of the Catholic Bible.
So you can see that it is a well known fact that the books that Protestants call Apocrypha and Catholics call Deutero-Canonical were originally in the Bible. Even Protestant theologians realize this.
Martin Luther even relegated the book of Revelation and at least one other New Testament book un-numbered to the back of his Bible. They were returned 80 years later.
When asked "Why did Martin Luther remove Seven (7) books from the Protestant Bible?" this guy answers the question by saying "Simply put, they didn't agree with his theology."
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index … 714AAcgjd7
"I have yet to get a Catholic Bible"
Here's a good online version of the Catholic Bible.
"so I can find out if this is why they pray to saints"
Catholics do not pray to saints, we ask saints to pray for us just exactly the same way a mother would pray for their child. Saints are not dead, they are living and reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven as I have mention previously in this thread.
The Hail Mary is a good example of how we ask our heavenly Mother to pray for us. The first two parts are from scripture (Luke 1:28 & Luke 1:42) then we ask Mary to pray for us.
The Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the
fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now
and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
"and believe in pergatory"
There is all kinds of proof in the Bible about Purgatory. In fact too much to list here, both in the Old Testament and New Testament. So I will just post this commentary on Purgatory that lists all the Biblical proof.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
"amongst many other practices that I don't find in my Bible."
They are all in your Bible as well, unless they have been removed.
God bless
MikeYou said, "We ask saints to pray for us just exactly the same way a mother would pray for their child. Saints are not dead, they are living and reigning with Jesus Christ in heaven", yet you deny praying to saints? What is asking them then? They're dead physically, alive soul-wise in heaven. You ARE praying to saints.
I don't have time to reply to your previous post today but I will come back on Monday to reply to it.
How do you know what myself or any Catholic is doing when we ask saints to pray for us? I'll just quote from this web site to give you an answer.
http://www.catholic.org/saints/faq.php#pray
Judah's Daughter do you not pray for your loved ones or ask them to pray for you? If not you should. Do you not think that we have guardian angels and do you not ask them for help? If not you should.
I ask live brethren to pray with me, not souls of dead ones. I don't find the latter scriptural at all. My Bible says that I pray to God in Jesus' Name, and that Jesus and the Holy Spirit make intercession for me, no one else. Reference Romans 8:26-27 and verse 34. This is the truth. Amen.
Satan and his demons also believe in God and Jesus as the son of God
Look up the definition of believe, as what it means to entrust one's spiritual well-being to Christ. Knowing and entrusting are two different things. I hope you aren't calling what is holy of the devil, for that is the unforgivable sin. Christians will disagree, but we do not call each other of the devil, just because we differ in our interpretation of the Bible.
The flood of water that comes out of the mouth of Satan are lies or false interpretations and the earth swallows them up. The earth is still doing that. If you would apply the equation of 1 week = approx 9,3 of our years you should find that everything fits from beginning to end and back again. The only reason this is so important is that people are expecting signs that they are not going to see. If we could stop interjecting our own interpretations into scripture it would not be so difficult to understand.
Jeremy, if it were as easy as Math, we would have it all figured out ~ everyone would. I don't know where you get your Math, but if it causes your interpretation not to align with prophecy that has not happened yet, it can't be correct ~~ speaking of Biblical time, sometimes we see literal days in the Bible, as with Jesus being in the tomb. 1260 days may mean a literal 1260 days or 42 months may actually be 42 months, both equalling 3.5 years, which may be a literal 3.5 years. No one knows for sure...yet.
The earth is swallowing them up? Really? Then why is so much differing interpretations flying back and forth all over the world and false religions are going strong and deception is still paramount? Again, you are giving a meaning to the flood that is your opinion and not provable.
I need to re-read, but I was under the impression that the beast would bring back the daily sacrifice (Jewish); and that the reason why people will adore him is because he'll get people of all different faiths (mainly Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) to coincide with each other. If anything, I have belief that the Sacrifice of the holy Eucharist will not be taken away.
I am in full agreement that the daily sacrifice is Jewish. Revelation centers around Jerusalem, the holy city and has nothing to do with Catholicism, other than maybe as Christians, they and other Christian faiths will be raptured and/or persecuted.
We agree up to a point, I'm still of the belief that the Catholic church is the harlot/whore of Babylon, but I won't get into that here.
Revelation (aka Book of the Apocalypse) centers around the end of the world, and what will become it.
If anything, I believe that the flood represents the nations that tried/are trying to destroy Israel and it's people. The earth swallowing them up simply represents these nations and it's people dying and going down into the grave.
JD, the reason why they pray to saints (and Make Money will no doubt disagree with me, but this is the truth.) is because of their view of the Heavenly hierarchy.
God - God is too mean to pray to, so they pray to Jesus
Jesus - Jesus is nice at first, but the same as his father, and becomes too mean; so they pray to Mary.
Mary - Kind, and motherly at first, but then becomes apathetic; so they pray to the saints.I don't know much about it, frankly, but what I do know is that when Jesus died, the curtain that divided the outer temple from the holy of holies was ripped in two, signifying that all of God's children who are saved through His shed blood, can come boldly before the throne. We, as children, do not go to an older brother or sister to talk to our parents, do we? All saints that are canonized are sinful, for only God was sinless, so none of us are more righteous than another, as a reason to pray to the "holy saints" to get to our Father. There is only one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ. The Bible says so, and we never see people praying to anyone but God through Jesus Christ in the Bible.
That's been my experience as well, and I usually wind up leaving. Usually though it's when they force that belief on others. I was a member of a church at one point that stated, "If you don't believe in the pre-trib rapture, then you're not welcome here."
So I left.Wow. That's sad...I had a pastor once that said we're all going to be part of the building (the New Jerusalem) as a doorknob or part of a toenail on Jesus' foot. Thank goodness, he allowed me to teach them inductive Bible study before we moved out of the State of Michigan. At least every person could search the scriptures and study accordingly to reasonably test what is being preached!!
another reason why I'm not so fond of the whole "praying to the saints" thing. The Catholic church was well known for taking the names and attributes of certain angels, and applying them to saints. For a couple of good examples of this, look up St. Michael, and St. Uriel
To pray to the saints, especially the angelized saints is blasphemy. Even the Holy angels in the Bible tell people not to worship them.
Did he...actually give a reason as to why? Or was it one those, "Just be grateful that you even get to be the doorknob or toenail!" type of things?It was just a twisting of the scriptures that talk about us being joined together as the body of Christ (1 Cor 12:21) ~ (so we're a toenail?), and that of the gates and foundations in the New Jerusalem (so we are part of a structure?)...it's just unlearned preaching ~ dangerous at that!!
I was under the impression that the Catholic church came together when Emperor Constantine gathered the religious leaders together at Nicaea in 326 AD at which time they agreed to unify forming one doctrine. Before this all of the churches were operating independently, and were arguing about almost everything. Constantine is given credit for forming the Catholic church, He divided the Roman empire into seven districts each having a Pope. these seven districts was then divided into three regions. The largest Church in that district was given another pope. Seven districts (heads) and ten popes (crowns). The district pope had authority over the other churches in that district. The Emperor of Rome was the ultimate authority over all. These three district centers were at Antioch (in Persia described by Gabriel as the bear, feet of a bear) the other district center was in Alexandria Predominately a grecian community built by the Greeks, (described by Gabriel as a Leopard) and the third district center was in Rome (teeth of a lion). The beast that John saw rising up out of the sea had a body of a Leopard feet of a bear and a mouth of a lion. For the first 1000 years of the Catholic Church the popes were the most blasphemous murdering adulterers ever to be. I wholeheartedly believe the Catholic Church was the beast rising up out of the sea.
Well, we know that the antichrist system will deceive multitudes, even the elect, if it were possible, looking exactly like the "real thing". There are scary presentations out there that point to the Catholic Church (the diverse kingdom unlike any other, as they are the only Church-State ever in existence) as being this antichrist system. I can only marvel, if it is the truth, because they claim the same gospel as Bible-believing Christians, yet have added soooooo much more that is non-scriptural or have created doctrines that never meant what they claim them to mean (i.e. that Peter was the Rock upon which the church was to be built ~ it was Jesus, the Rock, the faith exchange between them). Also, if the Pope is the descendent of Peter for all these generations, how can there be many Peters, many Popes? Anyhow, I know we need to keep on track with the millenial reign on this thread and have gotten side-tracked into the identity of the antichrist. Hey, but if we want to continue with this, it is very interesting!!
Frienz,
I believe it is in the bible on how Jesus banshed satan for competiting with him. I just forget which verse its in. Tv made a show about it. And, I believe the show "Touched by an angel" made an episode on this topic. Quite powerful as well. Way to go Jesus, I say..
Frienz4lif
nikla1
Proud to be an AmericanIf the Catholic church is the beast that John saw rise up out of the sea, this plays a significant role in establishing the time frame of the millennial kingdom. If Liberius was the head which received the deadly wound, and recovering when he entered Rome in 569, reclaiming his seat as Pope, The forty two months that was given to blaspheme began at that time.
Or it doesn't. The beast also has to be someone that will both deceive people (including the elect if that is possible) and get people to love him. This will be done by convincing people that all religions are correct.
I'm already seeing this happen inside of the church now. Pastors, and preachers saying that people being pagan is alright, because it's only a different way of finding God.I think there's supposed to be a one-world religion, and don't know if it will be Universalism or not ~ some think it will be forced Catholicism, as it was in the past (where people were killed who were not Catholic).
When I posted this last comment I had a slip of the fingers. It was 369, not 569, that Liberia's recovered from his being banished. Everyone is still looking to the future when the past holds all of the secrets. The catholic Church Little c on the catholic part does mean universal church. or could be translated "one world" During the Roman Catholic Empire you could not hold any Job of importance unless you were a "MEMBER" of their religiosity.
I also notice that everyone keeps getting caught up in the "RAPTURE" theology. This concept (RAPTURE) was first introduced in Daniel 12:1 & 2. He was talking about HEBREDS. the children of Daniels people. When the disciples were talking about being caught up in the air, they were saying that at least 70 years before the little horn of the fourth kingdom came to power.That when HE comes to his end at THAT TIME shall Michael stand up ... Hadrian was the LITTLE Horn which brought about the end days for that Hebrew Nation that Daniel and the disciples and YES even Jesus were talking about. If the left behind series were to be true (It isn't) those people would be deceived the same way that humanity has been for the past 1900 years. The bible that the Catholic Church put together for us has left out as much of the real details as they were allowed to. The elect, (at that time), insisted upon including the books of Daniel and Revelation or we wouldn't even have this is in our scripture to be arguing about.Jerami, you can go into Youtube or anywhere else on the internet and find all kinds of factual information that would "win" any argument that the Catholic church reigned for 1260 years or that the Great Tribulation has already happened. You believe the rapture has already happened? Not too many that do, Jeremy ~ in fact, you're the only one I know of thus far that believes this.
After the Great Tribulation, the millenial reign happens (the antichrist and false prophet are supposed to be in the Lake of Fire and Satan bound up). We can't be in the mellenial reign now because it's obvious the spirit of antichrist and false prophets abound, let alone Satan. The final destruction of Satan and the judgment seat of Christ has not happened yet either. Where do you think we are in prophecy NOW, Jeremi?
wow! i just read all 207 posts.
it would be interesting to see a small list of things about this subject you all agree on.
can you guys write out say your top 10 list and compare it so i can get an idea?
it just seems to be all over the place.
if someone wanted to know what you guys agreed on that would be great.That would take a great deal of research, Shaul. Since you read all 207 posts, maybe you could summarize what we agree on; it's bits and pieces. Sometimes Mike and Jerami agree; sometimes Mike and I agree; sometimes Sanctus and I agree...but, yes ~ it's all over the map (which is the condition of the church views as well).
well i have no idea what you all agree on, i am very confused and thought because you all have read and replied to all of each others posts that you guys would know what you did agree on.
you know, just make a small 5-10 point list for someone to look at and say "hey this looks good, sounds reasonable to me"
or perhaps this is a talk between you all and if another person goes away confused they will never know about such an important issue.
it seems important enough to go on this long for and still be so far apart. i am wondering what the point to all of it is?
i just honestly like to know what you guys agree on and maybe you do too??Well, perhaps each has hubs written on the subject that are in context with each perspective. I have one called "In the Air-On the Earth" that shows biblically why I have made the statements I have without wavering.
Thank you for adding to this post. Can I ask you to play a part as if it were in a play for high school drama class. Read Matthew Chapter 23 and 24 to someone and when finished ask them what they think as to what Jesus was saying
if i did that i am pretty sure they would be able to tell me where they agreed 100%, even if it were on 5-10 points.
that's all i am wondering, do you guys know?I think that as a whole we do agree more than we think. My grandfather onse said that issues like this one are like tree limbs. Ya gotta shake all tha leaves off it in order to see what tha limb looks like. the leaves represent all of those little issues that hide the real facts.
I truly believe that 1640 years of false interpretations has confused what was realy said back then, and as to who it was spoken to.
Again, where do you think we are in Bible prophecy NOW?
I believe that Satan was released out of the bottomless pit around 1890. he has a little season to gather the kings together for the final battle.
So why don't you tell us about the mark of the beast that prevented buying or selling, that caused martyrdom of the saints who refused it? Who were the two witnesses whose bodies lied in the streets of Jerusalem that were raised from the dead and ascended into the heavens before us?
I believe that the only importance in any of this is that people are looking for signs that are not going to come and they will be caught unaware
what signs? these?
John 4:48
Jesus asked, “Will you never believe in me unless you see miraculous signs and wonders?”
what signs are you talking about?
what people are looking for them?
All that I can say is that I once would have agreed with this other view concerning the temple being rebuilt so the Antichrist can sit in it and most of that other stuff. For the past 8 or 10 years I have been on a quest to reveal any interpretation that I was holding onto that simply was not what scripture said. I can write a contract that you would think that you were going to get money each month for the rest of your life when in a court of law, that is not what I said. YOU are gonna PAY ME. That is all that I am saying. read what scripture actually says,
Shaul Stein, this is what I believe.
- The final anti-christ/beast has not yet arisen. I say final, because there have been several in history; and also all one needs to do is look at the likes of King Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Tyre, etc.
- The Anti-Christ will be a world leader who will get all faiths in agreement.
- During the final days, true Christians will be persecuted.thanks you for giving me a reply, very nice of you, at least i know what one person believes in a nut shell.
just 3 more to go.
thanks againExcept that Jerami doesn't agree with the first two...
And this is what I believe, which goes along with Sanctus (except I believe a one-world religion will be forced on us, rather than all faiths being in agreement): I personally believe the chronology of Revelation and that most of these events have not yet happened. I see events taking place prior to the fall of Babylon, which very well may be happening now. I see the two witnesses and the church raptured at the time Babylon falls. I then see the armies of the earth coming together for the battle of Har-Magedon, when Jesus and the saints return to fight that battle. Upon completion of that battle, the antichrist and false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire and Satan is bound; at the same event, the first resurrection of the saints that came out of this tribulation period will join the rest to reign ON EARTH for the millenial reign. After this time, Satan will be loosed and gather the nations of Gog and Magog to attempt to conquer Christ and the saints one last time. He and those nations are destroyed and cast into the Lake of Fire; at the same event, the second resurrection of the unbelievers takes place and they are also cast into the Lake of Fire. The New Heaven and New Earth become manifest and all live happily ever after. That's the story I read in Revelation.
The one world religion will be both welcomed AND forced. True children of God will not welcome the one world religion. Others will embrace it, because this religion will be tolerant of all walks of faith.
True Christians will be persecuted, because they don't buy into this system. "Why not join this faith? God LOVES all religion, bla bla bla bla bla etc etc." They'll also be persecuted by their own spiritual brothers.
IF the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation are the Jewish and Gentile saved nations as JD mentioned, then these two witnesses will be the non-deceived. After their death, resurrection, and the earthquake, the ones that repent are going to be the elect that were deceived.Yes, I can see better why you express a "universalist-type" religion that will appeal to the "world" and will be easily accepted by them, but not by those of the truth faith. The elect (the ones who get saved after the resurrection and rapture of the witnesses) must not receive the mark of the beast, for they will lose their salvation permanently. Those who do not receive the mark will have to die a martyr's death for their faith. Come to think of it, the Bible says "the spirit of antichrist is already in the world" (even back then), and Universalim has been around about as long as Christianity ~~
I need to correct you on something. I'm not so much a "universalist" as I am a believer of universal reconciliation (for mankind)
In fact, before I even learned about universal reconciliation I had the belief that all faiths lead to God (I actually honestly believed that the gods worshiped in each religion were simply different manifestations of God.) After I learned about it, I realized that Jesus Christ was the ONLY way, and that the only true religion is following Christ completely.
You would think that the opposite would be true.While there is a universalist movement that believes and teaches all will be saved (so it doesn't matter what god they believe in), Jesus answers this question in Luke 13:23-24 "And someone said to Him, 'Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'" Jesus also tells us in Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Eternal does not have an end, so the "eternal punishment" is not temporary, leading to purification of the soul into eternal life. That is not provable. I'm glad you know the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Amen.
@ Jarami:
i left you an answer on the topic of pagans and free thinkers.For a clear cut answer to the question Do I think that I have all of the answers. Not absolutely all but most. If a person believes she/he claims to believe in Jesus with their whole heart, they should first and foremost believe the things that Jesus said to be absolutely true. You should read Matthew 23 & 24 pretending that you are playing a part in a play at school. Remember that both chapters are one conversation with a minor interruption as Jesus left the temple and walked to the temple mount. Jesus said numerous times things like "You shall see the son of man coming in the clouds sitting next to power and glory. This generation shall not pass, some of you standing here shall see , etc. When the words coming out of the Lords mouth are interpreted, understanding is lost. The rapture happened around 138 AD the 2nd coming happened around 94 AD, The first resurrection happened around 900 AD, Satan was loosed out of the pit around 1890, The beast will come to the end of his 42 months around 2012 The seventh trumpet and 7th vial poured out soon after.
One last statement for the night,... bed time... Antichrist is a state of mind or attitude, the beast was an governmental type of institution, The Little horn mentioned in Daniel 13 was a man. the little horn of the fourth beast with ten horns which one came up after the ten replacing three. Hadrian was his name.
well thank you both JD and SV for your answers, i hope Mike can too.
what is the difference between the elect you are talking about?
and the elect Paul talks about?
and the elect Jesus talks about?
and Israel being the elect of God?The Gentiles that are saved are grafted into the Jews, the chosen. The 144,000 are the first-fruits, but not the total of the elect or chosen. I have a hub called "The Elect of God" that explains the grafting in of the wild olive tree (Gentiles) to the cultivated olive tree (Jews). If you notice in Revelation 7, the twelve tribes of Israel include Judah (Jesus is the Lion of Judah) and He is called the "first-fruit" also. After the 144,000 are listed, verse 9 goes on to say the number couldn't be counted. As far as "those who were sealed", several scriptures in the Bible say that believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. Here's one: Ephesians 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Hope that helps.
I know nothing for sure but I have always thought this (the elect) to mean the most knowledgeable on scripture. "as in to fool even the very elect". I will admit that is an interpretation.
I believe the "elect" are filled with the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) that gives them discernment as to true and false, and you're on the right track :-) The Word also says in Hosea 4:6 that "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge", and the antichrist is also known as the "son of perdition" ~ perdition means destruction.
I do not understand why people cling to their interpretation so strongly, and yet I do understand. I will pretend that the "Rapture" hasn't happened yet. When it does come there will be every sort of excuse given except the truth. Just the way that we are doing now. These untruths will be taught for a 1000 years and people will be arguing this same statements of faith, If the Rapture did in fact occur in 138 AD, during the deportation of the entire population of Israel and Judah, it would have gone virtually unnoticed, Too bad that 99% of historical documents were destroyed during the dark ages. When Catholicism was created (326) it was the only religion except the pagans. and then after Muhammad there were only two until Martin Luther's views caused the church to become fragmented.
If we examine what was said in scripture, when it was said, and who it was said to, and what things were going on at the time, we would understand things differently.
If we wrote a letter to our friends telling them of things that are going on right now, and this letter was found in another 1000 years. people then teaches that everything in those letters were true and that they should prepare for this in their future. How do ya know???I cling to my interpretation, because this world is still a piece of sh**, and it's been a piece of sh** forever practically. Oh? Jesus already came? He was here already? Oh, and there were still wars, famines, plague, earthquakes; wow, what a really weak jesus if he couldn't stop those.
Yeah, yeah, I seem blasphemous, but the jesus that Jerami KEEPS insisting has already come is NOT the true Christ; so I think I'm allowed to speak against this fake jesus.That's the thing ~ if one tries to "uninterpret" the truth, it can only be an "untruth"; dangerous thing to do. One must study thoroughly and not just look at historical events or just "red letters", ignoring the rest of scripture. History repeats itself in so many ways and thus there are many who think these prophesied events (the reign of the antichrist, mark of the beast, etc.) has already come and gone ~ I think if Jesus had come back as He left (in the clouds), someone would have recorded it somewhere. I think if millions were MIA, just out of the blue, it would have been recorded somewhere ~ that's kind of important...
On the first point: I don't believe that all religions are the correct path. But you say that temporary Hell is unprovable. I find that hard to believe, because God, and Jesus have said (either by themselves or through their chosen) that they will save all of mankind; that all of mankind will be reconciled unto God; that ALL will be saved, but each in his own turn; that ALL will have their work tested by fire, and that if their work burn up, they will suffer loss, but they will be saved as if though by fire.
Paul writes that the Jewish nation won't be completely saved until the entire Gentile nation is saved.
When Jesus curses the fig tree is also another example of universal reconciliation.
As for the straight and narrow gate, that is the gate that only the true children of God will find, and be able to enter.
On the second point - True trueMy other profile, Carrie Bradshaw, addresses pretty thoroughly the universalist belief that all will be saved called "Refute of Salvation for All Doctrine". No more really needs to be refuted here on this thread, as it's off topic. God bless you :-)
As a final point, to which I've read and disagree with it (your hub). I simply cannot worship a god who has the ability to save everyone, but won't do it, and those he chooses not to save he tortures for all eternity. I can't worship a god who has the will to save everyone, but can't do it, because man's will is greater than god's will.
I'll be moving on now.It's okay to agree to disagree. At least you found your Lord in Jesus Christ and focus on bearing the fruit of the Spirit, which is proof of one's true salvation ~~
Moving on as I said I would do.
When Apollyn is released from the abyss, I don't think that an angel is really going to come, open up a pit, and then locusts and an angel over them are going to come up. What I believe, is that at the appointed time, Apollyn will come to power as a type of government official; the locusts will be an army under him. An army who is not allowed to kill anyone, but can torture those with the mark on their forehead.Yes, I don't think we're going to see a pit opened or an angel or locust-like creatures coming out of it either. Back when John had this vision, he was looking 2,000 years into the future. People didn't even know the world was round, for Pete's sake, let alone what helicopters were (looking like locusts)...just a guess, they might be helicopters.
I've heard the helicopter thing too. If they are helicopters then an army would need to be piloting them.
I can not believe that John was seeing helicopters. The shapes of the locust were like horses. Helicopters are not shaped like horses. And on their heads as it were crowns like gold and they had faces of men and hair like women.They were long haired Arabs with gold colored turbans as the arabs did appear just a few hundred years later.
It's been said the the "hair" would be the propellers, the horses would be like going into battle. Helicopters look like big locusts, if you think about it (their shape). They have faces of men because men fly them, and locusts fly. This is why some think they were helicopters.
The wings are the propellers
Revelation 9:9
9And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
I got curious/bored, and decided to draw the locusts as described in Revelation. They do appear more as helicopters piloted by men; granted the helicopter is really bizarre looking...
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