Millenial reign of Christ

1. 57

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   the actual verse (Rev. 9:7)  SAYS  that the locust HAD THE SHAPE OF HORSES. Plagues of locust were common back then and they always came into Israel from Arabia. These locust looked like,  men riding on horses  They looked like men riding on horses and the men had hair like women and wore a gold turban. This is what the scripture says. To interpret these locust as helicopters is doing exactly what I've been talking about all along. The Lord was giving a message to Daniel and John and God wanted them to understand the message. Wanting them to understand something is why he sent the message. We should interpret scripture as absolutely as little as possible. I remember when my children were young. I would lay down the law and as often as they possibly could they interpreted my message to them. Quit doing that as much as you passably can and then total understanding will come. There is no wisdom found in unnecessary interpretations.

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      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hey, my job isn't to go this far into interpreting Revelation anyhow.  I merely stated what I've seen others say (even on youtube.com).  Regardless of what they are, they are not literal locusts that have that weird look.  Many descriptive scriptures like this speak of symbolism of something natural and physical.

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2. 57

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   Just read your last post. The Arabs were known to wear brestplates of iron. These spoken of here were the muslam invasions of the 7th and 8th century.

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3. 57

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   I also noticed in an earlier post that Sanctus talked about the people burning for ever in the lake of fire. I too do not agree with this. I think that this must have been some king of mis translation or something. I believe that this fire burns for ever and people will for ever continue to be cast into it.

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      Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Wait.
      
      "sanctus talked about the people burning for ever in the lake of fire.  I too do not agree with this."
      
      "I believe that this fire burns for ever and people will forever continue to be cast into it."
      
      
      So which is it?

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      1. 57

         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I do have a burn pile in my back yard. I throw wood, paper all sorts of burnable clean trash on in and burn it. I could almost keep it burning all of the time, but that limb that I burned last week is not still burning. There will always be enough limbs falling out of the trees that I can keep it burning for ever. That one limb from last week does not burn for ever. I don't know that this is what scripture should say but I think it should

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         1. 78

            Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Read this exact scriptures in Mark 9:48 "where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'" and also in Revelation 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."  I would say this proves annihilation incorrect.

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            1. 57

               Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               To go into Lake Michigan an drowned may happen and I will be drowne for ever does not mean that I am in a state of drowning for ever (something like that anyway)

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               1. 78

                  Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Your soul is eternal.  The flesh is not.  The flesh dies, the soul does not.

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   2. 78

      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I believe in the Lake of Fire and that the antichrist, false prophet, Satan, his angels and all whose names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be cast into this fire.  Revelation says their worm does not die, that there is no rest for them day or night, and that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever.  The religious doctrine of the teachers Sanctus tends to agree with (or perhaps fully agrees with) is that the Lake of Fire merely purifies all evil (all those stated above) and they are all saved in the end.

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4. 59

   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

   Yeah, yeah, and according to Strong's concordance the term "shape" comes from the Greek words eidos (G1491), and homoiōma (G3667)
   
   The word shape in Revelation 9:7 is given the concordance number of G3667, and in this instance it means.
   
   1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
   
   a) a figure, image, likeness, representation
   
   b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
   
   
   It is G1491 that has the outer meaning.
   
   1) the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape
   
   2) form, kind
   
   So, the locusts do NOT have the physical appearance of horses; but they are LIKE horses.   I imagine that John gave that description, because back at that time armies would ride horses into battle.  In this instance, the men are riding the helicopters into battle.

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5. 57

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   I didn't mean to sound short in that other post. I've been trying to teach this message for soooo long that I am just  getting tired. People have been interpreting prophesy for 1900 years and that doesn't get anyone anywhere.    If everyone would quit interpretation it and just read it as it is written then we can see the message that God intended. I'm just saying that the practice of  interpreting scripture has been going on for soo long that it seems that everyone is hypnotised to it. Confusion abounds in interpretation. The Beast instituted the practice of interpretation long long ago in an attempt to keep his anonyminity

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   1. 59

      Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yeah, and what you're doing is essentially going, "Hey guys!  I'm completely right and all of you are wrong!  And, and if you interpret it then you're following the Beast!"
      
      You expect us to just believe you, especially when your proof is questionable at best?   You claim that Jesus already returned, but if he did there would have been total peace.  There has so far been NO PEACE.   You say that Satan was already chained, but can't offer an explanation as to why there was still deception during this time.

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6. 59

   Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

   So you believe in annihilationism then?

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7. 61

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   i would like to offer something that has not been yet.
   
   angels /  demons can and do appear many times over in the bible. they can appear to be just like a man or the can appear to look like the glorious ones they are if they wish. they must for sure slow down the speed at which they travel and change their molecular structure just to be still enough so we can see them, or else we would be consumed by the brightness of such a one.
   they can totally conceal their identity so much so that we would not even know we had entertained them says Paul, guess he had it happen to him.
   so if celestial beings can come to the earth and manifest to look like men, then perhaps these are evil ones who appear like men, keep their wings and change their appearance to be these nasty monster like torturers we are talking about.
   look a at the living creatures (beasts) that are around the throne, they have strange faces and appearance, i do not see why evil ones who have not lost the ability to transform could not be these insidious tormentors.
   not real good with the idea they are men or natural, but supernatural creatures who can take on a shape / form / appearance of what they need to.
   
   Just a thought on the matter.

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   1. 78

      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Good point.  Some think (and this is not scriptural) that man is being set up for alien interaction.  Anyhow, we do have evidence of angels in both forms (men and angelic) in the Bible, but nothing as to actually seeing demons in forms other than possessing people (their flailing, voices and strength).  If we can entertain angels unaware, I'm certain the same goes for evil (fallen angels).

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8. 57

   Jeramiposted 14 years ago

   I believe that I am right to believe the words that come out of the mouth of Jesus Christ. Do you think that that is wrong? . I do not believe that there is any reason to interpret the words that Jesus spoke. I believe that he understood the human languages well enough to say exactly what he wanted to say. To interpret his words is to change his meaning and to show disrespect for what he was saying. ?????  Why should we disregard what Jesus said because someone else says something that seems to disagree. Are we believing in Jesus or are believing in our own or someone else's interpretations. These "interpretations" are not going to save anyone. The word of God will. Jesus is the word of God. Jessy's words are the word of GOD. And what did Rev. 22:18 & 19  say about that....  If "All of you guys" as you put it are changing the word of God By interpretation ,,,  I'll let you call that one!

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   1. 78

      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Like I've said before, you need to acknowledge the entire Bible, not just the words written in red, for Jesus came to save the "lost sheep of Israel" and His message was for them.  Paul took the gospel to the Gentiles and you need to also include his teachings.  You include Daniel, so also include Paul.  John is said to have written things shown to him as to things to come, and it is the last book of the Bible, not in the first four gospels when Jesus walked the earth.  Even Paul wasn't saved until after the resurrection of Jesus.  The Church age as we know it began after the resurrection of Jesus.

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      1. 57

         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I believe that we should include Paul but we should not interpret what he says so that it contradicts the simply, and plainly written words of Pauls teacher.

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         1. 78

            Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Jesus didn't teach Paul.  Paul was saved after Jesus died and rose again, just as we are.  His teacher is the Holy Spirit, just as we have.  Amen.

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9. 61

   Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

   do you know to use any of the formating tools JD?
   it's not hard.

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   1. 78

      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hey, you gave me the clue (Formatting Tips at the bottom right of my comment box here); thank you! I missed that and know how to divide my comments into others' now. :-)  Yeah!!

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         Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         welcome

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10. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Except for my calling Jesus,Pauls teacher did you see any truth truth in the rest of the message?

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Jerami, you assume that you understand the interpretation of Revelation based only on what Jesus said.  We do not agree that your interpretation is correct because you believe Jesus has already returned and raptured the church, which also means the antichrist has reigned (and must still be reigning since the battle of Har-Magedon is what you say is left to happen ~ the antichrist isn't thrown into the Lake of Fire until after this battle), and that we must already have had the mark of the beast issue (martyrdom of the saints); you also believe the resurrection has already happened...none of us agree with you, so your interpretation doesn't mean we're all ignoring the words of Jesus.  You have to remember 2 Peter 3:9, which was written after the resurrection of Jesus, "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."  This is speaking of his return.  You also cannot ignore Paul's words to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:18 "men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some."

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11. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Jesus is suposed to be everyones "Teacher"

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you."  So, the Holy Spirit will 1) teach us all things, and 2) bring to our remembrance all that Jesus taught.

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       1. 57

          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          i think that the verse you mentioned was interesting. I read about a very private conversation between Jesus and his disciples. How do you see it?

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          1. 78

             Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             That it contradicts the rest of the Word, so it must not have had a literal meaning, but an imminent one; for He also said even He did not know the day nor the hour of His return.  It's been imminent for this reason ever since...every generation, based on that scripture in 2 Peter 3:9.

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             1. 57

                Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                If Jesus ever had a more intimate and PRIVATE conversation with his disciples, it would have been THE LAST SUPPER. I don't think that anything that Jesus said in this conversation, applied to me, enough that I could put it in my pocket any way.

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                1. 78

                   Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   All of Jesus' disciples were Galileans (heathens), not of the Jewish chosen ones.  This is evident in Acts 2:7 "They were amazed and astonished, saying, 'Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?'"  This is on the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit filled these Galileans and they began to speak with the tongues of the Jewish nations, causing all of them to be astonished!  The Bible is for all of us (the New Covenant), for any believer ("wild olive tree") is grafted in to the "cultivated olive tree" (Jews) and we are all one in Christ Jesus ~ isn't that wonderful!?? We love Him so much!!  Jesus taught his foundational teachers (they are the foundation stones in the New Jerusalem) and told them to go into all the world to share the gospel; that He would remind them of His words and that they would be taught by the Holy Spirit from that day forward (the day of Pentecost).  Likewise, we carry on the good news until He comes again.

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                2. 57

                   Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   In second Peter 3:9 I can Imagine Peter up there saying that in front of a bunch of his brethren, Approx. 30 years after the crucifixion.
                      This was approx 34 years later that  I think Jesus came again.   69 weeks of Daniel fulfilled ????? just like it says

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                   1. 78

                      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      People were able to WRITE then.  Why is it not recorded?

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                      1. 57

                         Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         
                         Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to damascus and Paul was the only one that saw him that day. And maybe Jesus came like a thief in the night and took everybody? That could have happened ?? or it will be ??

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                         1. 78

                            Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            If it had happened then, it would have been recorded along with the rest of the scriptures that were after Paul's salvation experience...Paul himself would have known it and preached it ~~ don't you think?

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12. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    The government would have not given a hoot. All the Christians were taken, And at the time the Roman Empire was in the process of evacuating the entire population and scattered them all over the world. Some of then might have gotten lost an far as the government were concerned?????

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Even the Bible has been attacked and attempts made to destroy it (some books are missing, for sure, but they still exist!).  God always makes a way for His Word to be written and not destroyed.  Even Germans hid the Jews when Hitler was after every last one of them.  Government is no threat to God or His Word.  Even word of mouth would have continued, as the Bible was first spoken verbally for generations until it could be written down.  We have not heard such a story from anyone that has been told for generations ~ that of Christ's return.  We will know it when it happens ~ the very gates of hell cannot prevail against Him.

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    2. 61

       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       .....and no Roman historian would have written down any of this?
       they would have been missing millions in tax revenue and you can bet THAT would have been NOTICED.

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13. 59

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

    and Jesus said, "And lo my return shall be like such a secret that none shall know of my return; and I will leave thee in utter confusion."
    
    Now...if I could just find that in the Bible somewhere...

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14. 61

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    seems like someone had to do a lot of convincing of themselves.

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15. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    I am a big big FAN of the bible and I do believe...  I read it a lot.

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I believe you DO love our Lord with all your heart, Jerami.  You've spent years studying and trying to understand and that shows how much you want to know our Lord.  Just keep your heart open and your spirit willing ~ tougher times are to come, brother, and we all must stand together in truth and in faith, but most of all LOVE for each other.  God bless your heart.

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       1. 57

          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you for that sweet comment. And bless your heart. everything you said BACK  AT  YA

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16. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    Entire populations were being moved. While the soldier in charge of keeping names and numbers and sending them off 144,000 of them got away for all they knew. And there was so many dead bodies that the Romans sure wasn't taking up much time with them. And if anything was written down for posterity. The dark ages and their fires took out a vast majority of written knowledge... All is possible with God

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    1. 61

       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       reaching?

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       1. 57

          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Maybe I was and maybe Not at all

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    2. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Jeremy, Jesus said in Luke 17:34-36 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.  There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.  Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."  He did not say there would be a war and people would disappear during it without notice.  Do you not think the one left in bed, the one grinding that was left behind, and the man left in the field would not have noticed and said something?  It only took the word of the women at the tomb of the risen Jesus to start the fire of the Word spreading all over the world!

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          Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          If we take this literally that two will in in the field , two will be in the bed etc. why do we not take all of this chapter literally

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          1. 78

             Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             You're speaking of "this generation"?  We already discussed that with Jesus also stating only the Father knows the day and the hour, and that He is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, etc.  The imminency is there and has remained ever since.

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17. 61

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    Roman soldiers do NOT lose people without being executed.

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       This explains why the soldiers guarding Jesus' tomb were so scared to have "lost" the body!!  You are right, brother!

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18. 78

    Judah's Daughterposted 14 years ago

    I clicked on your link and it took me to the first page of my other topic on proving Lucifer is Satan (forum).  Do you have a poll on your hub site?

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    1. 61

       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       oooops

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19. 61

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/19854
    no the poll is in here

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20. 66

    Make Moneyposted 14 years ago

    All this talk of a fictional future millennial reign of Jesus Christ that will just last for 1,000 years will not save a soul.  Not even one.
    
    What will save souls are the 7 Sacraments, especially these 3.
    
    The Sacrament of Baptism as seen in the Bible.
    Matthew 28:19 "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
    
    The Sacrament of Reconciliation or Confession as seen in the Bible.
    John 20:21-23 "21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
    
    The Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist as seen in the Bible.  This is also the daily Sacrifice that will be taken away in the end times.
    John 6:54-55 "54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."
    
    When you realize that you are "left behind" and not raptured or you are not called to go to the wilderness (Rev. 12:6) when the antichrist is revealed as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2 and the daily Sacrifice is taken away the Holy Rosary will become very important.  Whether you believe it or not, for your own safety sake you may want to print out the "Step-By-Step" Instructions for Praying The Rosary.
    
    God bless
    Mike

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    1. 78

       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Protestants teach that one must be saved by faith, by confessing we are sinners (but not ongoing confession for every sin committed), and simply asking Jesus (through faith and prayer) to be the Lord of our lives, accepting the infilling of His Holy Spirit and allowing Him to change our evil hearts to good.  It is living by faith.  Water baptism doesn't save, but spiritual baptism does (the one baptism) ~ water baptism is associated with repentance, not forgiveness; taking communion doesn't save and is not the literal body and blood of Jesus (but symbolic of) ~ we do this in remembrance of Him; yes, we are to forgive others as we are forgiven, but only Jesus can forgive them (not man); the daily sacrifice is Jewish, not Catholic.  You guys are a bit arrogant to claim such things, in my confident opinion.

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       1. 66

          Make Moneyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I'm sorry dear but I find you quite arrogant to be going against Jesus Christ's own words.
          
          "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day."
          
          The Holy Eucharist has been offered daily since the time of the apostles.
          
          Later in John 6, in verse 67 in the Catholic Bible it says,
          
          "After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him."
          
          I think it is just coincidental that the Protestant Bibles number the above verse as John 6:66

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          1. 78

             Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Ecclesiastes 4:5 "The fool foldeth his hands together, and eateth his own flesh."
             
             John 6:51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."  Verse 58 "This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."
             
             Now, these verses begin and end your Catholic belief that the bread is actually the flesh of Jesus (physically so, not spiritually so).  It is spiritually his flesh, yet it is literal bread.
             
             The daily sacrifice is Jewish.  Only your Catholic church will claim otherwise, no other Christian faith ~ unless you believe everyone outside the Catholic church are of the Devil, including the Messianic Jewish chosen people?

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21. 57

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    I believe that when we study any other subject we begin in the beginning and go forward. When studying prophecy we should do the same. We should, with an open mind, study what the earliest prophets said with an open mind. With no regard as to preconceived ideas as to where we want the story line to end up.                                                             
    If we understand The Book of Daniel for what Gabriel was actually saying, uninterpreted. The four kingdoms that these prophesy pertained to, were the first four kingdoms having dominion over that Hebrew Nation that existed back then. Those prophesy that was discussed in Daniel concerning the "Little Horn" of the fourth beast has no significance beyond the end days for that Hebrew Nation that ceased around 138 AD.
        These prophesy in Revelation describe with the trumpet judgments pertain to a different period in time. The vial judgments are concerning yet another period in time. And then the seventh trumpet and seventh vial judgments are simultaneous, when the kings are gathered together. At least that is what I see when I read scripture.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Jerami, your views are as respected as any.  I personally feel we, as the Church, are to look for the "abomination of desolation", the antichrist who desecrates the holy city by sitting in the throne of God.  That's when we will be given direction by God.  We then must know that we will be raptured prior to the wrath upon end-time Babylon.  We're home free after that.  Right now, the NWO (New World Order) is in the works and the "son of perdition" has yet to be revealed ~ the "abomination of desolation".  I believe he will come out of this system.  We're on the brink of the beginning of the Great Tribulation, followed by the WRATH of God's final judgment upon the Adversary and his "world".  Amen ~~

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22. 59

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

    Saints are the true sons and daughters of God that are here on earth.  Yes, we can ask a real saint to pray for us; but I have the belief that praying to dead saints is worthless; they can't hear you.
    
    Unlike many, I believe that once someone is dead, they're dead until the resurrection.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree with the first part of this, Santus, but look at Revelation 6:9 "And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar (not the throne ~ as the earth is His footstool) the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they CRIED OUT with a LOUD VOICE, saying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?  11 And there was given to each of them a white robe (not in the grave, eh?); and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also."  Here, we see souls in heaven, and saints still yet to be killed on earth.  It's all or nothing ~ our body and souls are different.  The body is said to return to dust, but our souls never die.  The body is said to be asleep (dead) because the Lord will resurrect those bodies at the appointed time.  Consider this verse also: Eccl 3:20-21 "All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.  Who knows that the breath of man ascends upward and the breath of the beast (animals) descends downward to the earth?"  Also, if the soul, spirit and body remain in the grave, there would be no "absent from the body and present with the Lord" (2 Cor 5:8) ~ never absent...

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23. 59

    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

    JD - That verse in Revelation concerning the saints under God's throne crying out; this is symbolic I believe.  Throughout the Bible, especially the OT we are informed that the dead remain the grave.  The Godly men knew that the only hope of having eternal life with Jesus was when they were resurrected.   This can only happen after God brings forth the tribulation to the world; only after will the first resurrection happen.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Look at Psalm 139:7-8 even "Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?  If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol (the grave), behold, You are there."  If the dead have no conscience of anything (as if the soul dies completely with the body), they would not be able to feel the presence of the Lord.  Also, Romans 8:38-39 "For I am convinced that neither DEATH, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."  Also consider that Jesus went to proclaim victory to the "spirits now in prison" before he was resurrected and ascended into heaven.  His soul left his body and was re-joined to it for the physical resurrection: reference Ephesians 4:9 and 1 Peter 3:19.

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24. 61

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    @ Mike
    
    i left you a reply in the pole you took sir.

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25. 61

    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    the dead can in fact hear, otherwise we would not be told to not communicate with them, because it can be done.
    and if the dead cannot hear, how did Abraham talk to the rich man acroos the gulf between them??
    how did Jesus go preach the gospel to them who were in prison if they could not hear too.
    for that matter, how did Jesus hear them respond?

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The dead can hear amongst themselves, and can be called up from the dead by the living.  The Bible says to call up the dead (as in when Saul went to the medium to call up Samuel) is a sin punishable by death ~ and yes, Saul died that very week: 1 Samuel 28).  We cannot practice something that is possible, but against God's word.  If you need scripture references, I'll be happy to supply them.  Let's just look at consulting the spirits of the dead on behalf of the living: Isaiah 8:19 "When they say to you, 'Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?"  The answer is NO.  Just study up on this alone and you will see this practice is something that God hates.
       
       Check out the similarity (or exact practice) of Catholicism and Unitarianism (pagan): "On All Souls Day, the faithful both seek contact with the spirits in purgatory and pray for the saints to intercede on their behalf."
       
       As I told Mike, the Holy Spirit / Jesus intercedes for us as stated in the following scripture: Romans 8:27 "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." verse 34 states, "Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us."
       
       And, there is only one Mediator (from where the word "medium" comes from) between God and man and that is Jesus Christ: 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time."

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    hummmmm things are getting, ummmmm, well?
    interesting? inquisitive? cutting to the chase? the heart of the matter?
    
    perhaps a forum on the topic will do?
    
    i think i shall start one eh?
    
    but what to call it?

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Maybe Catholicism vs. Judeo-Christian?  That would be a hot one!!  You're brave.....

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          Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          no more than Paul or i have lost my mind?
          i'd have to fortify the house first.

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    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

    We are told not to communicate with the dead, because what communicates back is not our loved one, but a demon taking the form of our loved one.
    
    
    
    This parable is a satire.  The Pharisees had actually a similar story in which a rich man and a poor man enter the after life; of course this was taken from the Hellenistic belief system.
    
    The rich man represents the Pharisees, while Lazarus represents either the poor in spirit, or the gentiles.
    
    It's also important to note how Abraham says that the rich man's family will not believe someone who rose from the dead.  Sure enough, Jesus would eventually rise from the dead, and the Pharisees would not believe him.
    
    
    
    Some say that Jesus was preaching the gospel to the fallen spirits.  The Bible does call them "those spirits who disobeyed".  Why he was preaching to them, I have no idea; unless it was to inform the demons that he had defeated them.
    
    
    
    Again, demons and angels can communicate.

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       Shaul Steinposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Jesus SPOKE to Lazarus and Lazarus heard Him shout "Lazarus come forth!!!"
       if the dead cannot hear.....ummmm????
       
       i could dispute the rest of what you said, but we will start here.
       
       keep in mind he was not the only dead person Jesus talked to in order to raise them.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, the dead can see and communicate with the dead (or the souls to the souls).  Jesus is said to have made "proclamation", not "preached" to the "spirits now in prison".  Traditional Christian doctrine teaches this incorrectly in that they believe Jesus went to claim all the souls of those who had died prior to the flood.  As we see in the teaching of Lazarus and the rich man, the bosom of Abraham is where all those who lived by faith prior to the flood, and those up to the time of Christ, went upon physical death.  The Bible calls a parable a parable (57 times), and in this case, this story is not called a parable anywhere in this chapter or otherwise.  Notice that the rich man was not told that he would be rescued by Jesus when he died and rose again, or anytime in the future.  This was permanent and will be for those who do not accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.  Amen.
       
       And yes, the Word does state in Jeremiah 27:10 that spirits of the dead LIE.

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    Shaul Steinposted 14 years ago

    He preached to the prisoners in order to see who had ears to hear and believe on Him. That is the only reason He ever preached the gospel and it did not change when He was dead 3 days.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The "spirits in prison" are the fallen angels that sinned in the days of Noah (they are incarcerated in Tartaroo based on in-depth Bible study).  You can also cross-reference this with 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but threw them into the lowest hell (Tartaroo) and imprisoned them in chains of deepest darkness, holding them for judgment;"  Hades (or hell) where the rich man was is said to have been a place a torment (flames), but he was not in prison or in chains.  The scripture states that Jesus made "proclamation" to the "spirits now in prison", not "preached".  I take this to mean He went to say, "You are defeated"...but that's only my opinion.  Obviously, there is no chance for salvation after death based on the rich man and Lazarus story (the rich man wasn't told, "Just wait for Jesus to come and get you"), so preaching to spirits in Hades (Tartaroo ~ the deepest abyss of Hades) was not to save them.
       
       For my in-depth study on hell, I have a hub called "HELL: Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo, Geenna".

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    Sanctus Vesaniaposted 14 years ago

    Matthew 13:33-35 (King James Version)
    
    33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
    
    34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
    
    35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
    
    
    People seem to believe that simply because someone is named in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus that it's a true story.  Ironic then, how after this story is told, Jesus raises someone named Lazarus from the dead who just died.
    
    
    
    
    Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (King James Version)
    
    4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
    
    5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
    
    6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
    
    Ecclesiastes 9:10
    Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
    
    Psalm 6:5
    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
    
    John 3:13
    And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    
    King Solomon; King David; and John.
    
    To put this on topic, this is what the whole millennial reign of Christ is about.  When Christ comes back, the saints will be resurrected with new spiritual bodies.  It's ad absurdum to think that those of God who die automatically go to Heaven.  The great hope for God's children is that they remain not dead.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       When a parable was spoken it was identified as a parable (57 times).  Just as Hades is not Geenna, Paradise (or the bosom of Abraham) is not the New Heaven (the New Jerusalem, where Jesus went to prepare a place for us).  The body dies and decays, the spirit ascends to God, as the Word says.  Paul said we are absent from the body and present with the Lord (no body ~ so not a whole).  Anyhow, again we agree to disagree.

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       Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       This heaven is the word ouranos (oor-ran-os'); perh. from the same as the idea of elevation; the sky; by extens. heaven (as the abode of God); by impl. happiness, power, eternity; spec. the Gospel (Christianity):-air, heaven(ly), sky.  Paradise, on the other hand is found in Luke 23:43 (when Jesus tells the thief on the cross, he will be with Him in Paradise "To day" (KJV); 2 Cor 12:4 (how that he was caught up into Paradise) and Rev 2:7 (in the midst of the paradise of God).  It is the Greek word paradeisos (par-ad'-i-sos); of ORiental or.; a park, i.e. (spec.) an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise"):- paradise.
       
       So, it appears the rich man was in Hades in flames and torment, which is not Geenna (the Lake of Fire ~ the final destination), and believers go to Paradise, which is not Heaven (the final destination ~ the New Heaven and New Earth).  Again, we can agree to disagree here.

       Sanctus Vesania wrote:

       King Solomon; King David; and John.
       
       To put this on topic, this is what the whole millennial reign of Christ is about.  When Christ comes back, the saints will be resurrected with new spiritual bodies.  It's ad absurdum to think that those of God who die automatically go to Heaven.  The great hope for God's children is that they remain not dead.
       

       If you acknowledge that Jesus went to make "proclamation" to the "spirits now in prison" before His resurrection, you must agree that His soul (yes, God has a soul; ref. Mat 12:18) was separate from His body.  His soul then re-joined His body upon resurrection, and He was raised incorruptible as we will be.  Thus, our souls are in Paradise (or in Hades) while our bodies decay.  Our souls are then re-joined with incorruptible bodies upon the resurrection.  This is scripturally sound, as much as you claim to believe in your interpretation.

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