This thread is an effort to discuss the doctrine of sin and salvation within the Christian religion.
We will have to begin by discussing the problem of sin and then the measures taken to deal with it in the wilderness sanctuary. We will then proceed to show how the sacrifices met their fulfilment in the NT.
In this thread we will admit the bible and in particular the OT as source.
No apologies for your belief in the bible.
The sacrificial system was instituted to demonstrate the penalty of sin as well as its remedy.
Whats your take?
I'll start off by mentioning the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Jesus says this to the apostles after His Resurrection.
John 20:21-23 "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
Your opening sentence is important. Sin and salvation are indeed doctrinal in the Christian religion.
I do wrong things from time to time, but I do not sin, because I do not accept the concept. Sin requires the existence of a God.
I wrote a hub on this explaining my position. Easily found, it's called "I am not a sinner - how about you?"
So my take is this - in your discussion, please restrict sin to where it belongs - inside religion - and steer clear of comments along the lines of "All have sinned"
Good luck in this attempt to start a proper discussion
You said "Sin requires the existence of a God."....Ummm, no it does NOT!!!
A sinner is defined in part, by breaking a moral law religious or not, to do a wrong (you admitted that already) by one who misses the mark, disobeyed they're conscience just one time in life. done anything evil or wrong just once, broken any law once.
Have you done these? If not, please walk on the nearest body of water.
And by the way, your every breath is given to you by GOD...you might want to test HIM on that...He can take away and then give it back to you in a moment...wait, faster than that.
And no such thing as "luck."
Hey Quiet, I think you're missing the point of this discussion, though I agree with some of your viewpoints. This kind of aggressive behavior towards others who believe differently than you is VERY counter productive to peaceful (or quiet) and healthy conversation. You will never win someone over by arguing with them over the internet. It seems like you are almost threatening Para with God's wrath with the 'every breath' comment.
I am a sinner. I am not perfect. But I know to Love the Lord Your God with all your Heart, and all your Mind, and Love your neighbor as yourself.
And regardless of where Para (or anyone) lives, he is your neighbor.
If someone comes right out and states things that exalt thoughts against the knowledge of GOD, then I do as the scripture says
"The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We use God's mighty weapons, not mere worldly weapons, to knock down the Devil's strongholds.
With these weapons we break down every proud argument that keeps people from knowing God. With these weapons we conquer their rebellious ideas, and we teach them to obey Christ. throwing down imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Messiah"
That is what I am instructed to do and that IS what I obey.
I do not think like an American...I think like the mind of Messiah and seek to have my mind renewed and transformed by HIS mind.
Jesus took on all comers who boasted, and that is what we have going on here in this persons arrogant statements, not someone looking for grace and mercy, but proud and high minded.
So I crushed the argument and challenged them, just like it says to with this kind of talk and thought. It says to take the thoughts captive and throw them down, this means forcefully.
If they lived next door, I would tell them in person because I love them enough to tell them the truth, what they do with it is not up to me, I do answer for the instructions given to me though.
Thanks for getting the ball rolling, but how about we slow down and let the bible speak for itself step by step. What does the OT say about sin?
There are many Hebrew expressions, I'll follow the schema which focuses on four:
1. Hattat: missing the mark
2. Awon: crokedness, iniquity
3. Pesha: deliberate revolt, transgression
4. Resha: turbulent and restless status of the wicked, guilty of hostiity to God.
Lets look at the NT words for sin, again there are many Greek words but we narrow it down to five:
1. Hamartia: missing the mark
2. Parakoe: disobedience
3. Parabasis: transgression
4. Paraptoma: trespass
5. Anomia: lawlessness.
Look at these concepts for a while and consider the drama of the disruption of the cosmos when paradise was lost.
Whether you choose to accept God or not, whether you choose to believe you have sinned or not is inconsequential to God or anyone who believes in Him.
Sin is sin, it is there whether you choose to "believe it away" does not in fact do so.
You think or believer you are not sinner simply because you do not believe in the concept of sin in relation to God. But what you fail to realize, is that sin is there regardless of whether you believe it is or not.
God is there, whether you choose to believe He is or not.
The question as to whether you ARE a sinner or not is clear.
You make very absolute statements there. You say, "I am not a sinner". But to "know" that you have to believe there is sin. for example I could say very absolutley, "I am not a doctor". I know that I am not a doctor because I know there are doctors and what they do and I am not one of them.
To say you are not a sinner then, you would to believe there are sinners and know what they do when they do in fact sin.
Your logic is entirely flawed. I can say "I am not a flumpgrooge". That does NOT mean that I believe flumpgrooges exist. In fact, I believe they don't.
I am perfectly well aware that sin is a necessary concept in the Judaeo-Christian tradition. It is not a necessary concept in my world view.
I accept that my view is inconsequential to you, as is yours to me. I am not a sinner. Live with it.
LOL ok lets say then that a "flumpgrooge" does exist could you then say you are not one? I say it would depend on what that flumpgrooge is or does.
Sin exists (sadly, unfortunately)
A sinner IS one who commits the act of sinning
A sinner disbelieves
Sinners do exist
To assert you are not a sinner, you first have to prove that sin (the breaking of God's laws) does not exist
Since you do not believe in God, you do not then believe He has laws to break. But that in no way deters from the fact He does and that people do break His laws.
Put another way,
lets say one grew up on a deserted island.
This person then gets rescued from the island and comes to the U.S.
Now this person, steals a grapefruit.
This person is a thief
Whether they believe they are or not, is inconsequential. But they could say "Well I did not know taking a grapefruit was a crime, since where I came from, I could take and eat grapefruits all the time."
So the judge in this case or accuser might forgive or pardon the offense since this person did not know of or ever of the law as it pertains to stealing. But in that case and even still, the poor hapless person is still, a thief.
You may not believe you are a sinner because you do not believe in the laws God created, because you do not believe in God.
But that does not subtract away from the fact, the He does and you are.
Again to assert that you are not a sinner, you first would have to believe that Sin exists and that you have not broken any of Gods laws.
I think it is your logic that is flawed on that, since you saying you are not a flumpgrooge, A flumpgrooge would have to exist or you would have to believe it does in order for you to conclude that you are not one.
Sorry, but your insisting of the 'fact' of God's existence doesn't make it fact. It's a belief. I'm not asking you to change your beliefs if you don't want to, but please accept that belief may not be fact, and please stop saying I'm wrong. You can be a sinner if you want. That's your prerogative. It is wrong to force it on others.
I am not forcing anything. And my belief nor your lack of does not negate, nor validate, the fact He does exist.
And where did I say you were wrong? I said as you had of me that your logic there was/is flawed.
And yes, I willingly admit that I am a sinner, I know this as I have broke Gods laws.
How can you say you have not broke Gods laws?
You don't even believe in God.
So how then can you say you did not break his laws?
A sinner by definition is: one who breaks God's laws.
To say you are not a sinner then you are saying that you are one to have not broken any of his laws, and how can that be when even in your disbelief you have broken one there?
Look at your first sentence. There is no justification for including the words "the fact". You believe, I don't. I know neither of us has proof because there can be no proof. But you claim factual knowledge on the grounds of belief. That's illogical.
Again - you believe you have broken God's laws. Your choice. But there might not be a God. You have, as we all have, broken Moses' laws. Different thing altogether. Men wrote these.
Logic, by the way, is axiomatic. Your logic is flawed. It does not match up to the axioms. Logic is an area where it is not a matter of opinion. Logic can't disprove God's existence but it can refute illogical statements about him. That's what I am doing.
Quietnessandtrust - sorry, but I think you missed my point.
Actually it DOES. Sin is the disobedience of God, and in other religions it is the disobedience of whatever god(s) or goddess(es) they worship.
Going by an atheist POV, an atheist CAN break the law, but (according to him) he cannot sin, because he does not believe in a god. If he doesn't believe in a god, then he will assume/presume that he cannot disobey this god.
Or, as the atheist will say, "How can I disobey someone that (to me) doesn't exist?"
Sanctus, I gave the definition of sin in my first post and the definiton does not mention belief in GOD is needed in order to sin and the best thing I can do here is to quote a great scripture.
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Ummm, that would make one a liar by default.
Definition of sin / wrong "A sinner is defined in part, by breaking a moral law religious or not, to do a wrong (you admitted that already) by one who misses the mark, disobeyed they're conscience just one time in life. done anything evil or wrong just once, broken any law once."
See, a moral law, religious or NOT.
So either way, agnostic, atheist or believer, one can say they have no sin, but the truth still stands and cannot by any crafty minded belief, be changed by men.
So really, no matter how many times he repeats it to himself, he cannot change the divine truth, it's not something he needs to believe for it to be true anymore than he needs to believe he needs air to live.
Perhaps when people mock GOD, HE is merciful to them, but only for a time.
I know and you know that sin is to disobey GOD, but even if one is willingly or unwillingly ignorant of the truth, the truth still remains true.
Confession of the fact that one is a sinner is not easy, that is why it is called repentance.
OK...and the atheist can have any point of view they wish...opinions about the truth do not change the truth though.
Right you are quietnessandtrust.
Rev. 3:16 "But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth."
Paraglider is a nice guy, very intelligent, but there are agnostics and atheists that come to this Religion forum that think we are suppose to talk in a manner as to not offend those that don't believe in God. But that is next to impossible and can't possibly happen in a Religion forum. If they don't like the thread they can just avoid it. We have as much right to talk about our faith in the Religion forum as anyone does.
I'm more than happy to leave this thread well alone, having received an aggressive and illogical response. Besides which, I did not come here to distract Gledoncaba's theme (the problem of sin IN the Hebrew sanctuary system) into a discussion of sin OUTSIDE it. I merely wanted to observe that belief in sin as part of a belief system does not logically extrapolate outside that system. Take it or leave it. Anyone interested can find my hub on the subject. Have fun. (By the way, I don't 'think like an American' either
Things are heating up already. There are the obvious fires, and the not so obvious ones. I even see that my catholic friend is going to keep me on my toes!!!
And the secularist wants to set a frame of reference that is in his comfort zone.
Yes yes this is going to be an interesting ride.
So the bible is allowed.
And Christians can unashamedly declare the gospel of Christ.
Make Money can we table your suggestion for later. Let us begin by defining the phenomenon of sin and go on to explore the immediate institution of the sacrificial system in Eden.
I will not be on the forum a lot for the next 3 weeks due to other activities. For security reasons I will give details at end of the three weeks.
Sure I'll hold back.
But I'd like to add that the Sacrament of Baptism was meant just for the forgiveness of the original sin of Adam but if taken later on in life it clears all sin up to that time.
I'm not even sure how we are suppose to define "the phenomenon of sin" other than with the 10 commandments.
This may end up being a very interesting topic glendoncaba, especially if we eventually get into talking about supersessionism.
To say one has no sin is by inference saying they are perfect and without fault. Not possible. As q said, breaking/transgressing ANY law, makes one "guilty". (Of sin) "A rose by any other name is still a rose".
No. I own up to many faults. I don't claim perfection. Far from it. But I'm not a sinner because I don't play that game. It's an optional game located across a leap of faith. I don't need to go there. No-one has the authority to drag me there.
"If we say we have no sin, we are deceived and we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in US"
No option there, no game mentioned.
Restating a lie over and over does not make it a truth. Although some people can be tricked into believing that is does...aka Nazi Party
You call it sin. I do not, as I do not believe in god, I call them my mistakes, and I deal with them myself. A concept of sin is not part of my belief system either.
Ahhhh, there you are again...Only a fool says in his heart "there is not GOD"
"If we say we have no sin, we are deceived and we lie to ourselves and the truth is not in US"
No option there, no game mentioned.
Restating a lie over and over does not make it a truth. Although some people can be tricked into believing that is does...aka Nazi Party
You keep calling people people fools, and you should know. You are a major expert in that field.
It's not me calling you a fool...you admit you are one by your own words when you say "THERE IS NO GOD"
Talk to HIM about it...you might become wiser by the moment.
Tell you what bigot, the day I take any advice from you will be a cold day in your hell.
Quietnessandtrust - You come across as a thoroughly unpleasant person and a very bad ambassador for your religion. Your use of red and bold type is childish and does not help your case. You cannot shout me down. I allow you the privilege of believing anything you like, for you. But not for me. You are arrogant beyond belief in insisting that you know "the truth" and all who disagree are wrong.
Your foolish attempt to associate me with the nazi party speaks volumes about your intelligence, or lack of it.
Weren't the Nazi's fundamental christians? You couldn't be a Nazi ever. I don't believe you could even hurt a fly.
Do you know the answer to your own question?
You believe in god. I don't. Live with it.
Glendoncaba - As this is your thread, maybe you can tell this guy that he is out of order? I've found you (and Mike, and akaDJ) to be respectful thoughtful respondents. But this one is doing you no service at all.
I DO NOT wield a plastic sword.
I am not politically correct.
I tell it like it is.
I have no fear.
Not of man.
Not of fools.
Not of the proud.
Not of the atheists.
Not of anyone, save GOD alone.
Keeping a lower profile than usual for immediate future.
Para & quietness:
Yes. I suppose starting a religious thread in which I propose the authority of bible will quickly get fiery hot. Could you both cool the contest of words.
I'm not going to be able to post here much right now. Funeral in Birmingham Friday now behind me. Might be in Middle East tomorrow. I may have to invite jenny to keep peace for me until I'm back in my study in the Caribbean summer. Wonder if Jenny can moderate a discussion which recognises Scriptures as source.
Wish I had the funds to do the Cairo Aswan Luxor full package. Just Cairo for now, God's willing.
PS No smart comment about Horus now.
Next trip to Egypt I'll look up his temple.
Will try to do some hubs on Cairo.
I do not require you to "ALLOW ME THE PRIVILEGE" of believing anything.
I do NOT know all of the truth...THE TRUTH knows ALL TRUTH and that is what I have been saying...big difference there.
Your opinion of THE TRUTH cannot change HIM at all.
I never said you were associated with The NAZI PARTY, you assume to much.
I said "if you repeat a lie long enough, some people will believe it, just like the Nazi's did"
If people say "there is no GOD"...then they are a fool. NOT my words, I just report it as it stands in THE TRUTH.
Here is a nice quote to ponder from another Hubber:
Joined: 2 months ago
Warning! Lecture Ahead....
There is too much preoccupation with method. The most important thing is what is being said, not how it is delivered. If you have to be softened, coddled, soothed every time you hear something, you are not going to know much that is worth knowing. In fact, your world is going to be a small one.
So if he uses bold print? It's his quarter to spend. In the Old Testament, God told the prophets to preach to the people of judgment to come. They were as offensive as this guy. And how did people respond? About the same as on here. They stopped their ears; they didn't want to hear it. It wasn't sophisticated. They were stoned, beaten and sawed in two for proclaiming an unpopular message to people who had to be verbally stroked before they could listen.
Wipe your feelings off your sleeves. If you oppose people's views, (esp. if the view comes from GOD HIMSELF) (my insert) expect to be hit back. If you don't want to be hit, go bake cookies and then send us all some. I work hard (overtime) never to take the comments personally.
Yes, that was a lecture, but I told you it was before I started...."
I am not interested in serving anyone but THE TRUTH.
I answer only to THE TRUTH and not a man,
I believe in THE LORD GOD ALL-MIGHTY MAKER of heaven and earth.
The beginning of wisdom is the fear and belief of GOD.
Only a fool says in his/her heart "there is no GOD"
You have made that statement several times, so you qualify.
I however, am not qualified, I proclaim GOD is real.
Mockers, scoffers, haters of GOD...all sleep in the same bed.
I've said before - believe what you like, for you. Just stop trying to force your belief on others. After all, you are human, and may be wrong.
I am stating what I believe like you all are.
I am human and have been wrong.
THE TRUTH however, is NOT human and is never WRONG.
You are stating what you believe. I prefer to have no belief system. I leave open questions open. It is liberating not to pretend to have answers where there are none.
With that line of reasoning...
So, you have the answer to nothing on the matter?
Then why are you in here giving your answers?
I would love to review how we have done with the sin discussion but i would wake up too late and miss my coach
The non-spiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by non-spiritual critics. Isaiah's question, "Is there anyone around who knows God's Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?" has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ's Mind and Spirit.
"The Solution to the Problem of Sin in the Hebrew Sanctuary System"
The solution came when God gave His one and only Son as a substitutionary offering for the sins of the world.
His Son willingly gave His life and shed His blood to cleanse our blood, for the life of mankind is in the blood and the sin in the blood of mankind must be cleansed if he is going to stand justified before a Holy sinless Creator who loves mankind.
Animal sacrifices were NOT sufficient to cleanse the blood of mankind, for the blood of a animal is not the same as the blood of man. Science has proven this.
If you drink the blood of animals, you will start to act like one.
If you have blood in you, you have sin in you, it comes with the blood.
Wrong. The sanctuary had to offer an immediate solution to the Israelites, which pointed to the ultimate solution. But we are running ahead of the plot. And I am still officially on leave from this thread for another few weeks.
We have to explore the concept of sin, the measures provided for purgations, and the symbolism.
Back home but writing hubs like crazy. I am writing mostly organically and not chasing keywords. Maybe that explains why with over 50 hubs I'm only getting about 45 page views per day with very little click through.
And I promote on Twitter, Facebook, and Digg. Not doing directory submissions yet.
So I just want to produce a lot of what I trust is useful content right now. Later I'll look at probably buying AdWords, and subscribe to Keyword Academy.
I was blessed with the opportunity to do the Cairo, Aswan and down the Nile thingy. Three hubs on that so far.
Sorry if I came across as a little paranoid with details earlier, but in our part of the world we don't advertise when we are away from home, one has to be careful because of high crime rate.
So let's get going. Or continue.
The Creation account in Genesis 1 and 2 clearly shows that man was created in the image of God and given dominion over the planet. God is holy, loving and relational among his many characteristics. So the image of God reflected in humanity would produce this kind of nature. God declared them 'good'.
They were created as free moral agents, and had the highest potential by abiding in a moral and spiritual relationship with
As free moral agents Adam and Eve were responsible for their choices.
John M. Fowler in an article on sin says "Ultimately, the image of God is the very opposite of the image of sin."
The divine plan placed humanity in the middle. Man was expected to worship and obey the Creator. At the same time humanity had rulership of the planet.
The cosmos requires order and system. Man had a definite place which was best accomplished by accepting the responsibility, the twofold directions: upwards to God, and downwards to manage the planet.
A third dimension was also in the image of God, being relational humanity was expected to live in horizontal fellowship that reflected the image of God.
Sin has damaged the image of God in humanity. We no longer wish to worship and obey the Creator, we have been cruel to every living thing on the planet, and we are lost eternally unless there is a way to restore the perfect image.
"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.
The problem with the human race is not politics, is not religion, is not class struggle, is not illiteracy; the problem with the human race is sin.
So we must understand sin in the OT before we explore the sanctuary solution.
I know its more fun to argue. But I was hoping for a little more than that. I'll return after 10 hubs.
I think Adam and eve's children would have been put to death under both new and old testaments.
Adams children would need to have incestuous sex and then the wole of mankind would have to continue like that, having sex with each others siblings to create the human race!
The resultant humans would be crazy enough through in-breeding to become religious!
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