John 17:15-20 where Jesus (Yahshua) is praying to HIS FATHER:
"I'm not asking you to take them out of the world,
but to keep them safe from the evil one.
They are not part of this world any more than I am.
Make them pure and holy by teaching them your words of truth.
As you sent me into the world, I am sending them into the world.
And I give myself entirely to you so they also might be entirely yours.
I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me because of their testimony."
I separated the first and last verse for our benefit. So read those 2 again by themselves a couple of times slowly. :-)
OK, so from there, let's talk about WHY ? WE NEED ?? A RAPTURE ???
BEFORE THE TRIBULATION ?????
And be careful to remind yourself what THE MESSIAH just prayed.
And before you start, here is a nice verse to ponder as well.
"For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from the fatal plague. Do not be afraid of the terrors of the night, nor fear the dangers of the day, nor dread the plague that stalks in darkness, nor the disaster that strikes at midday. Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you.
For he orders his angels to protect you wherever you go. The LORD says, I will rescue those who love me. I will protect those who trust in my name.
I will satisfy them with a long life and give them my salvation."
(In Hebrew salvation is called Yahshua and translated Jesus in English)
OK...Now keeping in mind all of the above...please go ahead and answer.
Nice choice of verses to show that there will not be a rapture quietnessandtrust. It's also comforting to know that Jesus is praying to the Father for us.
There is a previous 2 page Rapture thread with lots of Biblical proof that there will not be a rapture.
Yes sir, those words of Messiah praying to HIS FATHER are pretty clear and leave no room for a concoction of escapism. He knew we do not need to leave the planet to be safe anymore than HE needed to leave the planet all those times they tried to kill HIM before it was HIS hour to willingly lay down HIS life for us all. :-)
HE did not leave earth while being tempted by Ha'Satan either, notice this, it is very crucial. If GOD did not remove HIS son from HIS hour of testing, but left HIM here to face it, we will be too. We are NOT above our MASTER!!!
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I would like to add to this and say there is no rapture,(but if that is what you believe then live it out to the fullest) but transformation, in present time. That we can accept pureness and holiness as the way God sees us now, not in heaven. For what is the use of being here if only to wait for heaven. Did Jesus not say that I came that they may have life "now" and to the fullest. I know some of the bible, I can't quote exact scriptures all the time, but I know I am close. For God said himself for I did not create the earth for nothing. But that all would CHOOSE the path they want and do it with all their heart. Would he like for us to choose him, of course, but he is a man of his word, he is integrity, and he will respect our choices ultimately. For that is who he is a gentleman. I can not image living forever, what would be the use, of that. I could then go and do as I like and not think of the consequences that my choices will have on my offspring. Yes I want to live on in memeory, and I hope that I leave this earth, touching many lives, whether in a small way or large does not matter. But that a part of me will live on. I hope you don't mind me adding this. Thanks Dee
There is a fundamental flaw in your argument. The great tribulation is the outpouring of God's wrath, not an attack of satan, or evil. So, the believer cannot be partaker in the wrath of God, since we have had our "punishment" bourne by Christ.
Nope, sorry, wrong. The wrath of GOD was poured out on Pharaoh and Egypt and in the days of Noah and on Sodom and Gomorrah and all of HIS people who were to be saved, delivered and kept away from HIS wrath never left the planet, they were kept in safety because they followed HIS orders and had they not, they would have been destroyed along with the others to whom the wrath was intended for.
And I am well aware of the fact that "we have had our "punishment" borne by Christ."...This is correct, this does not mean that we leave the planet.
So answer the question about the prayer of Messiah.
"I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me because of their testimony."
"I'm not asking you to take them out of the world,
but to keep them safe from the evil one...I am praying not only for these disciples but also for all who will ever believe in me because of their testimony." (repeated on purpose)
HE made no prayers in vain, what HE said will stand.
Address this before you continue sir. Nobody can contradict Jesus' prayers and not a single person has even tried, they just ignore it and make up more "rapturite doctrines."
Satan and evil ARE involved in the revelation, just part of the wrath, read it for yourself.
Rev 12:9 "This great dragon--the ancient serpent called the Devil, or Satan, the one deceiving the whole world--was thrown down to the earth with all his angels"....Rev 12:12 "Rejoice, O heavens! And you who live in the heavens, rejoice! But terror will come on the earth and the sea. For the Devil has come down to you in great anger, and he knows that he has little time."...Rev 12:13 "And when the dragon realized that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the child."...Rev 12:14 But she was given two wings like those of a great eagle. This allowed her to fly to a place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be cared for and protected from the dragon for a time, times, and half a time.Rev 12:15 Then the dragon tried to drown the woman with a flood of water that flowed from its mouth.
Rev 12:16 But the earth helped her by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that gushed out from the mouth of the dragon. Rev 12:17 Then the dragon became angry at the woman, and he declared war against the rest of her children-all who keep God's commandments and confess that they belong to Jesus. Rev 12:18 Then he stood[fn3] waiting on the shore of the sea.
OK, so from there, let's talk about WHY ? WE NEED ?? A RAPTURE ???
BEFORE THE TRIBULATION ?????
I think your answer regarding John 17:15-20 is in the very first sentence of Psalm 91 which you also quoted-
"For he will rescue you from every trap and protect you from the fatal plague...
I think God has promised His believers a rapture so that we do not have to suffer through the tribulation that will come.
HE does not contradict HIMSELF at all. To be rescued does not mean to leave the planet. ever been rescued from something? Are you still on the earth? If Messiah said "do not take them out of the world, but DELIVER THEM FROM THE EVIL THAT IS IN TH WORLD"...that is the end of the matter.
Only "Raptureites" think they need to fly away..Jesus did not, HE never left the planet during any temptations or even when they tried to throw HIM off a cliff. HE was protected while staying right here. Then HE willingly laid down HIS life, nobody took it from HIM by force, HE even said as much.
To be rescued and protected by GOD, that is easy for HIM.
If you think you have to fly away to heaven, your GOD is small.
HE is not in the business of flying people away, but rather sending them THROUGH and seeing the SAVED through it all. This is how HE receives glory. Did the 3 Hebrews fly away to heaven or get tossed into the fire and have THE LORD HIMSELF come in the fire to talk to them???
Come on now, think outside the little box. No disrespect meant.
You did not include the rest of the quotes from the Psalm either. Like this part that goes "Though a thousand fall at your side, though ten thousand are dying around you, these evils will not touch you."
SEE IT??? NOT TOUCH YOU!!! And where exactly are you when this happens?
Answer me this: ??? Are the 1,000 falling at your side or the 10,000 dying all around you...up in heaven ??? It's talking about you looking right at them all falling and dying right in front of your eyes!!!
This is not going on way off in the clouds.
Remember...our KING is not small minded like us. :-)
If we focus rather on the core beliefs instead of on the details I think we could all easily agree or disagree. Trying to understand or figure out when the 2nd coming, rapture etc... will happen is quite honestly a mute point since it will not bring about one's salvation nor lend to a healthy discussion of the real meat of Christian Theology.
Just a comment --- Brian
I have often wondered if leaders and teachers and believers would spend as much time on doing the works of faith and of Jesus (Yahshua) as they do trying to "figure out" something that cannot be done, would not the congregations be living right, instead of in the mud???
Dee: Well spoken and thanks for the honest, frank and heartfelt comments.
To be transformed into HIS image is our daily duty, moment by moment, taking captive every thought of ours and of others and making it obey Messiah as the scriptures states.
Casting down all imaginations that exalt themselves against the knowledge of GOD and HIS SON Yahshuah (Jesus) so that we are transformed by the renewing of our mind. There is no such thing as "it's all good"..that is utter trash talk.
No such thing as "my truth" or "your truth"...THE TRUTH IS HIS ALONE...ans HE ALONE IS THE TRUTH...as HE said "I AM THE TRUTH"
Each and every single thought must be confronted and captured, examined and taken apart before we let it stand. This goes for things we hear from others too. We must give and answer or we will answer for being silent!!!
Here I go again, lol, I believe when you say that we will answer for it, that means present time, for when we give silence to our words, and not allow them to come forth, regardless of the consequences they may have on another and ourselves, what we are doing to ourselves, is pushing down, our thoughts, and only bad can come from this. For you will eventually go mad, or go on antidepressants or worse. Speak what is on your mind, be gentle, but firm. Don't allow others to walk all over you. Take that stand, for the life you want and so desperately need. what queitnessandtrust is saying about taking your thoughts captive is examine every thought that comes to mind, sit still, listen to the silence within, you may not hear an audible voice, but you will know. If you have trouble sitting still, gently tell your mind to hush and tell your thoughts to be still, gently and with kindness to yourself. I hope I didn't step on your toes queitnessandtrust, and please correct me if I am wrong. I suffered, for 4 years at not being able to sit still, and hear the silence, but now I am free once more, to hear the beauty within. peace
I hear nothing but wisdom in the words you wrote. No toes stepped on either LOL. It is for sure in the stillness, that silence speaks. The term in the scripture that says "still small voice"...means "the speaking silence" in Hebrew.
A silent voice that is so loud, it can be heard. It is in silence, that one hears all things, because silence does have a voice and it speaks. It is more quiet than a whisper.
Ever seen how the wind moves and causes things to make a noise. Then at times you can see things moving, but the wind makes no sound at all.
We just tend to ignore HIM because we hate the silence and love noise.
I have a quote of mine:
"SILENCE IS MUSIC, GO STUDY IT"
My music can be found here.
My concern for those that think they will be raptured is that they may not recognize the man of sin when he is revealed cause they think they will be taken up before that time. I wouldn't want to see them be deceived by him. I hope you don't mind me copying this post from the other rapture thread.
The consolation here is in Rev. 12:6 where God prepares a place in the wilderness for us during the 42 months of tribulation.
Ahh yes, the old adage of the "Rapture" the beLIEf that the only way God can save his saints is by taking them away from the earth.
Isn't it funny that God will make short the time of the tribulation for the sake of his saints? Now why do that if he was just going to pluck them from the earth?
Fantastic POINT!!! Indeed to many of HIS people think HE is to powerless to save them to the uttermost!!!
That HE is not able to prepare a place of refuge for us right here on the earth. I mean, if we have angels watching over us, who can stand against us? Just one angel can wipe out an army, never mind a legion of them!!!
I hear ya Sanctus and I like to start and end the discussion with what Messiah Himself said "Father, leave them in the world, do not take them out if it, but deliver them from the evil that is in the world"..."I do not pray only for these here, but for ALL of them who will believe because of they're testimony" Paraphrase.
Quite a contrast from "oh no the sky is falling we have to go to heaven!!!"
Story after story upon still another story is told about how HIS people were delivered and remained right here on terraferma. I do not understand how this is ignored by the Rapturites.
Daniel 12:1 is the earliest mention of the "Rapture" that I am aware of. "And at that shall Michael shall stand up for the CHILDREN OF THY PEOPLE..." These are Hebrews. And when Jesus gave his sermon on the Mount, Matt.24 Mark 13 and Luke 21, Peter James John and Andrew came unto Jesus PRIVATELY and ask Jesus "When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign of thy coming and of the end of the world".Jesus answered concerning things that "THEY" were going to see. Verily I say unto YOU (the disciples) "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled, but of the day and hour knoweth no man..." Jesus was talking about the tribulation, the Rapture" and his second coming.Jesus said that these four were going to see all of these things. When this fact is accepted all of end time prophesy becomes simple to understand. There is NO mystery if we can stop "INTERPRETING' the truth out of scripture.
A question for you because I just want to be clear on your comments.
Are you stating that the 4 saw everything fulfilled?
Are you saying that a "rapture" already happened?
Or that it will happen after the tribulation?
And Jesus has already come again?
Thanks for the reply.
Daniel 12:13 "But go thou thy ways until the time appointed: and thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot unto the end of the days."
It doesn't sound like there will be a rapture from that verse. But this is not an argument that will make a difference in our salvation or not.
Daniel 12 is pretty cool cause it gives us an idea three different times how long the days of tribulations will be. Verse 7 says "a time, and times, and half a time" which is a year, 2 years and a half a year. Three and a half years or 42 months. Verse 11 says "a thousand two hundred ninety days" divided by 30 is 43 months. Verse 12 says "a thousand three hundred thirty-five days" divided by 30 is 44.5 months. But Matthew 24:22 says "And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened." So Our Good Lord has shortened those days to 42 months which is mentioned a few other times in the Bible.
The point that every one is missing is that in Daniel chapteer 10 and 11 Gabriel is fortelling the events that bring us to the 14 emperor (Little horn that after ten kings one shall rise after the ten, replacing three.... the fourteenth king of the FOURTH great kingdom. When he comes to his end..... At that TIME shall michael stand up....At that time(many yesterdays ago)Then shall Michael stand up for the children of Daniels People whose names are written in the book. Yes I am saying that the beast that Daniel saw rising up out of the sea (C. 14) has been lieing to us for a long, long time. Many generations have we been listening to our forefathers instead of reading scripture for ourselves. Read what it says instead of listening to what we are told what it says!!!
So are you saying all of this has already happened?
All of the revelation has come to pass?
Messiah has already make a second coming?
Just want to be sure I understand your point of view.
I do believe that everything that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24 has come to pass exactly as he said that they would. The great tribulation and his coming again. Daniel chapters 10 and 11 was fulfilled when the 14 emperor of the fourth great empire came to his end. (When Hadrian died in 138 AD.) At that time Michael stood up for the children of Daniels people. Those that were written in the book were redeamed from among men and some of those that were in the grave. After this is written THEN 12:7... a time times and a half, and when he has accomplished to scattered the power of the Holy people these things shall be finished. Daniel did not understand this statement so the angel rephrases it for him, with "from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away and the abomination of desolation is set up there shall be 1290 days" or approx 1675 years. 1675 years after 138 brings this to approx 1812, about the time that the Hebrews started migratimg bact to Israel. The 1335 days were finished around 1879. These were the times of the Gentiles. I believe that soon after this, Satan was released out of the bottomless pit. He is free for a little season or (119 years). Another time line exists describing the 42 months that the beast that rises up out of the sea is given to blaspheme the Lord. This 42 months are about to be fulfilled. All of prophesy has been fulfilled up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet and the pouring out of the seventh vial. Just my opinion.
Jerami the fact that Jesus has not returned yet is just one of many reasons against Preterism.
The 1290 days that is spoken about in Daniel is the same as the 42 months spoken about in Revelation except the time has been shortened as we see in Mark 13:20. The time of these coming tribulations has been shortened to 1260 days.
1260 days divided by 30 = 42 months or 3.5 years or a time and times, and half a time.
Where it mentions the "daily sacrifice" or "continual sacrifice" in Daniel 12:11 it is talking about the Holy Eucharist that is offered daily in every Catholic parish on the planet.
I posted this in another thread a while back.
1260 days was also the amount of time that Antiochus persecuted the Jews. Antiochus is mentioned in 1 & 2 Machabees. 1 & 2 Machabees is also in this version of the online King James Bible under the apocrypha section.
The non-spiritual self, just as it is by nature, can't receive the gifts of God's Spirit. There's no capacity for them. They seem like so much silliness. Spirit can be known only by spirit—God's Spirit and our spirits in open communion. Spiritually alive, we have access to everything God's Spirit is doing, and can't be judged by non-spiritual critics. Isaiah's question, "Is there anyone around who knows God's Spirit, anyone who knows what he is doing?" has been answered: Christ knows, and we have Christ's Mind and Spirit.
I have a delima. I would like to understand something but can't. Let us assume that we agree that the great tribulation, the second coming hasn't happened yet. Also that the seal, trumpet, and vial judgments have not begun either. Are these things all to take place within a seven year period? If true, this does not change the fact that scripture clearly states that the beast rises up out of the sea. Satan gives the beast power. Satan is then bound in the bottomless pit for a 1000 years. During this time Jesus reigns on the earth for a 1000 years. The beast is still on the earth during Satan's bondage because we see that the Beast and False Prophet meet Satan in the Euphrates river when the 1000 years of bondage is finished. The 42 months must be for a longer period of time than the 1000 years. They then gather the kings of the earth together to the Battle of Armageddon. During the Millennial reign of Christ on earth, the beast is persecuting Christians??? And the woman described in Rev. 12 (Christians) are carried away into the wilderness to hide from the face of the serpent. And the bride of Christ is seen coming down out of heaven. I thought that the Christians who are hiding in the wilderness was the bride of Christ? Unless someone would put all of this in some kind of chronological order I will never understand this. Don't say that God does not want for us to understand. He would not have told these things to us if he did not want us to understand. Can we establish a chronological order to any of this?????
What is your dilemma exactly?
Answer a simple question of yourself = "Does this make any sense?"
If the answer is no - you already have your answer.
The answer to the question is that unless endtime prophesy is dissembled and laid out in some kind of chronoligical order it will never make any sense. And in order to do that we have to forget any and all interpretation that has been taught over the past 1900 years. Daniels and John"s dreams can not be taken literally. But if I do believe in God, I will believe his interpretations of that dream or vision "literally". If I do not have faith in God, I will have a need to interpret his interpretation. Revelation does not give any interpretations for any of those visions. Therefore if we interpret anything at all we must follow the guidlines set forth in the book of Daniel. And if I can do that ??? Who knows what I might find ?
Pretty sure you already know what you might find.
And if you have a rational bone in your body, you will find that none of it makes sense. Unless you have the majikal key (Daniel). Do you by any chance have the answer to the question you posed?
No I believe within the 42 month period. I'm not sure where they get the 7 year period from.
Satan was already bound in the bottomless pit at the time of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection. Jesus reigns from heaven from that time until He returns which is referred to as the 1,000 year period. Satan will be loosed from the bottomless pit for a short time before Jesus returns, this may be the full 42 months of tribulation or possibly near the end of it.
I believe the 42 months is exactly 42 months because it is described as 1260 days.
During the 42 months the Holy Sacrifice of the Eucharist will be ended by non-Christian forces and Christians will be persecuted. Many Catholics, including Mary from apparitions are saying the Holy Rosary will be the main source of God's Grace during that time. The woman in Rev. 12 is referring to both Mary and Christ's church. Let's pray we are found to be taken to the wilderness. God's people on earth will not be taking part in the Battle of Armageddon. It will be between the forces of evil and Jesus and His 144,000 saints. We already know who will win.
The Bride of Christ is Mary and all the saints in heaven, the holy souls in purgatory, those that have moved on from purgatory to heaven as well as all practicing Christians here on earth. We are a big lot.
The part of the Bride of Christ that will come down out of heaven with Jesus are the 144,000 that follow Jesus where ever He goes (Rev. 14:1-5). I hope that helps.
You don't understand Mark, they have a delima, not dilemma
And I am still thinking on reply to your email.
THE RAPTURE IS NOT A BIBLE INSPIRED SCRIPTURE. IT IS THE WORK OF AN ANGLO-IRISH EVANGELIST BORN IN THE 1800'S NAMED JOHN NELSON DARBY.
IN THEOLOGICAL CIRCLES ITS CALLED DISPENSATIONALISM. HE CAME TO AMERICA IN 1862 TO PREACH HIS RAPTURE THEORY AND IT BECAME POPULAR AT HIS SERMONS AND THROUGH THE SCOFIELD BIBLE.
THE SCOFIELD BIBLE WAS THE PREMIER BIBLE TO INTRODUCE DISPENSATIONALISM IN THE UNITED STATES WHICH WAS LATER POPULARIZED AMONG FUNDAMENTAL CHRISTIANS.
"Scofield's correspondence Bible study course was the basis for his Reference Bible, an annotated, and widely circulated, study Bible first published in 1909 by Oxford University Press. Scofield's notes teach dispensationalism, a theology that was in part conceived in the early nineteenth century by the Anglo-Irish John Nelson Darby, who like Scofield had also been trained as a lawyer. Dispensationalism emphasizes the distinctions between the New Testament Church and ancient Israel of the Old Testament. Scofield believed that between creation and the final judgment there were seven distinct eras of God's dealing with man and that these eras were a framework around which the message of the Bible could be explained. It was largely through the influence of Scofield's notes that dispensationalism and premillennialism became influential among fundamentalist Christians in the United States."
Exactly GHOST RHYTER. Dispensationalism is the reason why some people get stuck on the fact that we are now living in that 1,000 years period.
Mark back up a couple of statements and you will find my answer to your comment. The reason that there is no understand is that the truth is buried under 100,000 different interpretations
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