forbidden fruit
And do you think that's fair ??
What kind of God is that?This is as far as I will go, Tantrum.
I never get involved much in religious debates on Forums for personal reasons. I just went a step further, this time cos it was you. Mon Ami.
So, hold that thought and hopefully someone will take it from here and explain more to you. I'm also in the middle of creating a Hub, but keep on drifting into Forums. lol.
Will check up on the thread again later...
- sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago
0 I see the Tree of Life as an experiment for all. After all, the animals could have ate of it as well. Perhaps God wanted to know if we were worthy of being treated different than the other animals.
Another ancestor of man has been recently been discovered ... this one is a million years older than 'Lucy' and less human-like - but still distinctly not ape. Could it be we started out as the animals and this original spark pushed us to be come humans?
We already know that many ancient writings were full of symbolism and that the ancients possessed knowledge that we are just recently rediscovering. Some see this as early alien intervention, but I see it for something far simpler ... back then, man had a lot of time on his hands to think about everything around him and to discover things by trial and error.
Is it possible that early man knew more of where we cam from? Is Genesis a writing designed to tell us that we gave up our innocence to become intelligent?
I know all religions hate people messing with the word of God, and I am not inciting this opinion to unsettle their world. Rather, I am volunteering this as a possibility we can dismiss or consider ...
What if ... our creator were creation itself? What if early man tried to put a name and a face to creation as he tried to better understand it?
Madness, you say? Examine the pagan cultures carefully and you will see where man has done just that. Thor, the God of thunder is a prime example. with early man struggling to understand how storms occur. There are also stories of the moon chasing the sun through the sky. Early man wanted to understand the world around him, just as we do today, but he possessed far fewer tools to do so. As such, his accuracy was limited to what he could see, hear, smell, feel, and taste.
Given all that, I am not ruling out God, just stating him in the role of creation. From there, I think it has always been up to us, determining our own fate.
So then, why the Bible? Why all of the immutable laws to follow? Why all of the control?
I think I can answer that. We are pack animals by design. Consider the fact that we live more peacefully in small groups and that we strive to own our own domiciles with our own personal property. This is all about forming our own packs in society, with each pack seeking to forge its own way.
Now, to form larger societies, that pack philosophy must be modified to allow for packs to merge together ... families struggling for the same cause. To do so, laws must be introduced that all must follow and there must be an authority that can never be overthrown, lest the collective be led to chaos.
That's where we turn back to our creator, for surely no one can shake a sword at him and have any effect. You can't overthrow that which isn't physical, thus you obey or accept the consequences.
So ... knowing that religion is a good thing and solidifies us in larger packs, why are people turning away from it? Knowledge ...
Where early man accepted what he was told as he could prove no different, the current evolution of man can see many inconsistencies and finds himself not believing what generations before just accepted as truth. This philosophy seeks to separate us all again, unless we embrace something new to accept as watchman over us all.
Without knowing it, those who have stayed with religion profess it so loudly now, as they see the erosion of society, and somewhere inside see religion as the answer to put everything back into place ... and they are right.
Religion is once again evolving ... as it did at the time of the ancient Egyptians, as it did in the time of Christ, and as it did in the Dark Ages. Mankind needs something new to believe in ... something we can all accept as fact and give reverence to.
For thousands of years we have counted on various gods to bring us the rains that irrigate our crops, punish those who are corrupt and evil, and keep our livestock safe from harm so that we have food.
It is through our own (evil) inteligence that we have become gods in our own sense, being able to control or manipulate the forces once given to God's control - and we have often done so in a poor fashion.
We all need something new to believe in ... whether it truly exists or not ... for we are still a species based on pack mentality, and every day of chaos bring the pack one step closer to our door.
And yet ... there is still one God left that we cannot dispel or ignore ... creation itself ... for we are incapable of creating all that is around us, which must give us to believe that there is a force greater than our own which is capable of wonders we could never achieve.
And does creation care how we behave? Most certainly not, as creation just continues on its path, creating more stars in the sky and destroying those that have passed their prime. And yet, as humans we can give substance and meaning to anything, so why not give the face of creation to our God, as we did many thousands of years ago?
Is it that wrong to want to exist in peace, all in the name of creation? After all, if it were not for the power of creation, none of us would exist - and many in the future would never be born.
We don't need versus commanding us what to do ... we need to know that we answer to a power greater than our own, and that sin ... the sin of knowledge ... was a blessing in disguise, as it allowed us to understand the need to go against pack mentality to thrive as a species. As much vinegar as it is wine, intelligence is the only chance our species has to continue on without destroying itself.
This is why God placed that symbolic tree in the Garden and told us not to eat from it. He knew we needed intelligence to survive, but he also understood the chaos that would follow from its discovery. As for the Devil, often depicted as the tempter of Eve, he had his own agenda, which I will explain.
Again, this will get into a subject that many will disagree upon, which is fine, but please don't fight over it, as it's merely an opinion - nothing more.
The Devil represents pack mentality. Everything he stands for is about forming a world where individuals can seek gains by ignoring the needs of others. Consider all of the deadly sins and apply this logic ... it fits. It makes sense that the Devil would want us to become intelligent, as it is easier to corrupt a man with intelligence than a man who possesses none.
Consider all of the good acts and evil acts your mind can manifest. For each evil act, ask yourself, how would it benefit society as a whole? The truth becomes readily apparent ... evil seeks to separate society and good seeks to make it whole. As such, the paradox of God placing the Tree of Life before man and telling him not to eat of it ... he realizes the good that could come of it, but also realizes the evil that will be unleashed. As such, he leaves the choice to man, who then is persuaded by the inner devil to go through with it.
It's our first use of free will ... to eat the apple ... followed by our second ... to wear clothing. As such, the Tree of Life brought us free will and now we must temper its usage with wisdom. To make every choice benefit the many, we must wisely consider them, which is why so many laws were adopted by early man ... allowing those yet to be born to learn from the mistakes of those born in the past.
That's why religious tomes exist and are often written in the form of stories, as these are more readily understood and accepted. Still, these are knowledge passed down from man to man, under the authority of a God we can not see, hear, feel, or touch, unless we are willing to believe he is present.
And that's why people resist the word when it's given, as we are creatures given to think for ourselves. And to that I say ... the way a lesson is given matters not, so long as the word is accepted. By that I mean, it doesn't matter what or who someone choses to believe in, so long as they attempt to be a productive part of society that doesn't fester their life away trying to destroy it.
Creation still exists as the most powerful force in the galaxy ... and until the day comes when we harness the energy to create our own galaxy, creation will rule on. As such, even those who believe not in God can believe in creation and understand the importance of living within the boundaries of society to perpetuate our species. For should we ever decide to enc our existence on this world due to a final war, creation will pass us by without ever giving further consideration to if we were ever here.
Sin is a manifestation created in the minds of men, but to ignore its existence and embrace it can only lead to chaos. As such, whether we chose to believe in God or not, we must still believe that we can function together as a society, or find ourselves returned back to the dawning of man, roaming the Earth like pack animals and accomplishing nothing more than feeding ourselves.
Religion is the mental evolution of mankind where he realizes the importance of his interactions with others. As such, it certainly has its place in this world when it's not being used to manipulate the needs of others to benefit the few .. as this then devolves down to evil.
A good example is the many small groups over the ages who have committed suicide in God's name. They served no agenda other than their own, which laid them in the hands of the Devil.
God did not create sin, nor did the Devil. Rather, we created and gave existence to all through our own beliefs and continue to do so today. As such, the best we can all do is to continually weigh the needs of the many versus the wants of the few ... as that is the true path that leads us all to a better life.
um ... yeah ... wasn't expecting that to turn into a book. Sorry.
For starters you think too much!
It's a matter of faith and it's intangible. Some people have to hold something to know it's true, I 'll never know how they handle a bank! I believe you're right on the point it's a guide for life, the rest not so much. One miracle continues to happen over and over again, and has for 2000yrs and it's the life of Jesus and the affect on people his word touches. It defies all logical thought and continues to grow even in a world of sin and doubt.
- cosetteposted 14 years ago0
hello you. thanks! (it's true, you know
And what did the Egyptians believe in when they assembled the Great Pyramid?
They believed in something, but it wasn't God as we know him ... and yet, that belief allowed them to create an enduring monument that still stands today.
As the Egyptians believed in other gods, were they incapable of accomplishing anything? Look at the history and you will see they accomplished much ... and were as deeply religious (if not more so) than those who followed.
Accept things by faith? A man who does not open his eyes in blind. If all were to accept everything by faith then none of us would be on this forum today. After all, what need would there be to communicate our thoughts and ideas if we only needed to believe in everything and never question it?
Consider the many inventions throughout the years and ask ... what place do they hold, other than to make life more convenient? We could easily go out and hunt down animals with spears and grow our own food, so why don't we? Why did we aspire to be more?
Does faith drive one to discoveries? If so, tell me where in faith it says that a man should spend his time questioning such things as how a bird flies, enabling him to one day create an airplane. Faith tells us to accept everything without question ... such as the world being flat, which is a prime example.
Back before the days of Columbus it was proposed for thousands of years that the world was flat. This was accepted on faith and never questioned. Heck, the Greeks offered up proof and people accepted this as fact for thousands of years.
Buy then, mankind became doubtful and set sail to seek the truth ... and discovered that the world was round. Had mankind went totally on faith and believed everything he had been ever told, would any of us be here today?
Faith is a belief in something you can not see, hear, touch, feel, or taste, but it should never be a condition where we stop questioning things.
To be honest, sometimes a lack of faith bolster it! After all, we can't prove God exists ... but we can't disprove it either. As such, we can't say with any certainty he doesn't exist, and every shot at disproving it only proves it more.
As for the Earth being flat ... one trip around the world resolved that one as not being true ... so we don't believe that anymore.
When mankind stops questioning everything around him he stops prospering. What if ... what if tomorrow we harness an endless supply of free energy that is enough for the whole world and what if ... we create an endless food supply tomorrow that feeds everyone? People are working on that today, though there are those that say such a thing does not exist.
Based on faith, we should stop such silly inquiries, as we can't create endless energy or endless food supplies ... but what if we eventually do? Will we consider those people foolish then for not having faith in old beliefs?
Faith is not about being blind ... it's about accepting that which has not yet been disproved, with an open mind to the possibility we could be wrong.it wasn't faith that ignited scientific achievement - it was questioning, analyzing and imagination.
no inquiry is "silly". in fact, many of the questions i had as a small child were answered with comments like "Based on faith, we should stop such silly inquiries".
heh.
which is why i am still asking.
someday hopefully they will be answered. i have faith...Hence, I think the Bible is wonderful for symbolic meaning, and detrimental when taken literally. We inquiring, demanding skeptics have a tendency to yell less and demand more of our zealot friends.
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