Eating from the tree in the midst of the garden, the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The first sin was not a one time thing.
The first sin is unfortunately our greatest sin even today
The snake told Eve that if she ate of it she will become as God.
The sin that lies underneath the sin.
Thinking ourselves as GOD!
If I am as God who better to interpret his word than me.
That sin is and has always been the most damaging to our souls.
It is from this original sin that ALL sin continues to be spawned
The original sin is God's sin. How can he be so sadist ,as putting the Tree of Life (or Wisdom) , in front of his creation, when he knew, as God Almighty that he is , that they were going to disobey? What's the reason for doing something like that ? I will never get it! That's one of the reasons why I can't believe .
I think this is the toughest question of all. There is no good answer. As is the rest of the bible ,written by man described as best as he could. This too may have been censored either intentionally or not. God was explaining these things to child like minds. In other words "I DON'T KNOW"
But I do know he did
"How can he be so sadist ,as putting the Tree of Life"
I think you meant the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, no?
They also had the choice to eat of any trees in the garden and there were many including the tree of life.
So if I put a hundred choices of food in front of you and your woman and tell you that one of them is poisonous and not to touch it lest you die and the 1st thing you do is go eat from it.....this is who's fault exactly?
Even today, given the choice between life and living forever...or...good and evil knowledge...people still pick the later.
It's God's fault, because he knew they were going to eat it. So why jepoardize his own creation ??? That's nuts !!
you know...if we did stuff like this to our kids...gave them treats and stuff but had like this amazing-looking cookie jar and told them NOT to eat from it knowing full well they would and then punished them severely for it, that would make us evil, mind-f***ing parents and land them in a psychiatrist's office when they grew up...
I don't disagree, but as I say, I think there may be layers to these kinds of things.
Pardon my bad, simplistic example, but once I punished my kids by making them go out weekly and learn how to pull weeds in the strawberry garden. I lost a lot of plants to begin with. But then they discovered green berries and couldn't wait to taste them when they ripened. The garden became rather immaculate for a few weeks. When they finally got to taste the berries, it was a great day for them. I reminded them that pulling weeds was a punishment, not reward. They could care less.
Adam and Eve eating the fruit, learning good from evil apparently yielded rewards enough for them to take the risk. I don't know if they regretted it. I don't know if God actually did punish them, if he provided for a way through all of it. At least symbolically provided a way....
To be as God, only in the respect of knowing good from evil, hence the name of the tree. Yes, it would be a sin to esteem ourselves as powerful and knowledgable. But it isn't a sin to know good from evil. That's what the scripture refers to, in principle, but Jerami, you do make an excellent point about additional underlying layers to meaning.
God made a paradox by creating the tree and telling Adam and Eve not to eat. The paradox was that if they didn't, they would live in eternity in their youth, in sublime ignorance. Sounds boring. Satan fell for the trap, actually. By partaking of the fruit, mankind would be born, learning good from evil as Adam and Eve. But in so doing, would fall short of the kind of knowledge God has, and therefore, to compensate for the possible loss of man, implemented the atonement, provided by Jesus.
The paradox is important to consider because the universe is not all about darkness, nor all about light. It contains both. One is meaningless without the other.
Adam finally understood, after eating the fruit, that he caused the actual decaying process of a planet, not just for himself and Eve. It was only then that he could understand and comprehend the grace and salvation of the atonement, and therefore, for the first time began to comprehend what mercy is.
In fact, were it not for Adam and Eve's transgression, we would not be born. Were it not for their transgression they would never have understood sorrow to appreciate joy, and so many other things. Therefore, the power and importance of paradox, of opposites, of coexisting peaceably one with the other.
I might add that the symbolism in the story is far more important than whether or not it is literally true. If you start unraveling the layers and getting into such stories they become meaningful on many different planes.
If there is a God, there is no other explanation for creating such a contradiction as the tree of good and evil and then telling them not to eat.
Are they coexisting peaceably ? Where? It's always about the battle of good and evil, right from wrong. and anyway ,who can really tell what's right or wrong? Concepts have changed through the centuries. different societies, different concepts. And I ask again, if you were a God ,would you have created such terrible creation ??
You are right, of course. In reality there is a lot of conflict. The idea is that one is not without the other, in regard to opposites. And so war will continue until we are ready for peace. And then the cycle will start up again, as usual.
It's far more about philosophy than it is reality always reflecting the ideals of philosophy. Philosophy gives meaning to man, where it otherwise wouldn't exist, and where there is meaning, there is a reason to continue. With no meaning, there is no reason to continue.
I've stated this before in the forums: I was raised a devout Christian, even raised a family, was married for 24 years, and spent all those years immersed in religion. Now I feel no kinship to religion at all. I rather feel more like a devil's advocate for both sides at times, which makes me appear to be incredibly disloyal to anyone. I' just learned that I need to think for myself and not be swayed easily without thinking it through for myself.
But I agree with your points as far as real world practicum, tantrum. However, philosophy gets me through senseless stuff, so I keep that handy.
Tantrum, do you have any children, or have you ever raised a child?
Yes I left the building. As I some times do I waited for a while, went and did something else. This time it was Pork chops and eggs over easy.
I guess the question was; is the original sin of thinking ourselves AS God really the ONE sin that continues to confuse us ALL even today? The one sin that elevates us above all animals? The one sin that makes us think that we are all that and a bag of chips too.
Worthy to change the meaning of Gods word.
Has this been going on since the beginning?
Tantrum's touched on it a bit.
The original sin was Adam eating that fruit but he was asked not to eat it. There was a Choice...
Really? God knew what was going to happen. Is he not 'God Almighty '? And did Adam chose to 'be'? he didn't, being god's creation. No choices whatsoever. Not in that religion.
He knows the nature of man but still gives a choice. Even this very minute - He gives people choices and doesn't force His will on anyone.
If you were a God, would you have created so foul a creation ? I doubt it !
Yes. Bodies rot. they are full of disgusting fluids. Minds are rotten as well.We have to kill other beings in order to stay alive. We killed thousand of lifes each day without knowing it. (bugs, insects, virus, etc. ) What's the purpose of those lifes ?. And what about wars? and hunger, and diseases?
Bodies only rot when they are dead.
Not everyone has the mind of Murderer or Child Abuser etc.
Not everyone kills other beings to stay alive.
Hunger and diseases are not of God, they are of the Devil and its up to people to pray about it.
Also, sometimes God visits the iniquities of people on other generations. So, if people have been nasty or have been worshiping idols, they might not suffer for it in their lives but their next generation will bear the consequence.
And do you think that's fair ?? What kind of God is that?
This is as far as I will go, Tantrum. I never get involved much in religious debates on Forums for personal reasons. I just went a step further, this time cos it was you. Mon Ami.
So, hold that thought and hopefully someone will take it from here and explain more to you. I'm also in the middle of creating a Hub, but keep on drifting into Forums. lol.
Will check up on the thread again later...
I agree with you tantrum...but I think had adam not eaten the forbidden fruit god would have become unemployed!!
But he knew what was going to happen, remember ?
Yea I remember....but dont you think there is a probablity that he might have done it to get a better salary and status.Today many people donate their everything to god.when we fear someone we try to please them.
No matter how intelligent that we become there has to be a point in time that we come to the egg and chicken syndrome.
We can not explain anything to an infinite degree.
Does this first sin keep on and on like the energizer rabit?
Do we continue to think ourselves as Gods?
I think we all are gods in our own right.We are solely responsible for our life.And newazy god have alwayz said that we are equal and one day he would call us to heaven.So till he is absent from earth we are the only responsible gods.
Original sin is such a stupid concept.
If you believe God gave us free will then why are we today penalized for the choice of others thousands of years ago?
If you believe God knows everything that has and will happen then He purposefully created us knowing original sin would occur.
If you believe God is a loving kind God then how can one person screw it up for the rest of us to send us to Hell?
People screw up well enough on our own we dont need original sin to penalize us lol.
It was easy to obey God in his presents. Two plans were presented to God: one was make them obey, the second was give them free agency and tempt them with love. When we became of the body we were given a choice love and obey Heavenly Father as we should or deny his existance. It's all as he said it would be. Amen.
I see the Tree of Life as an experiment for all. After all, the animals could have ate of it as well. Perhaps God wanted to know if we were worthy of being treated different than the other animals.
Another ancestor of man has been recently been discovered ... this one is a million years older than 'Lucy' and less human-like - but still distinctly not ape. Could it be we started out as the animals and this original spark pushed us to be come humans?
We already know that many ancient writings were full of symbolism and that the ancients possessed knowledge that we are just recently rediscovering. Some see this as early alien intervention, but I see it for something far simpler ... back then, man had a lot of time on his hands to think about everything around him and to discover things by trial and error.
Is it possible that early man knew more of where we cam from? Is Genesis a writing designed to tell us that we gave up our innocence to become intelligent?
I know all religions hate people messing with the word of God, and I am not inciting this opinion to unsettle their world. Rather, I am volunteering this as a possibility we can dismiss or consider ...
What if ... our creator were creation itself? What if early man tried to put a name and a face to creation as he tried to better understand it?
Madness, you say? Examine the pagan cultures carefully and you will see where man has done just that. Thor, the God of thunder is a prime example. with early man struggling to understand how storms occur. There are also stories of the moon chasing the sun through the sky. Early man wanted to understand the world around him, just as we do today, but he possessed far fewer tools to do so. As such, his accuracy was limited to what he could see, hear, smell, feel, and taste.
Given all that, I am not ruling out God, just stating him in the role of creation. From there, I think it has always been up to us, determining our own fate.
So then, why the Bible? Why all of the immutable laws to follow? Why all of the control?
I think I can answer that. We are pack animals by design. Consider the fact that we live more peacefully in small groups and that we strive to own our own domiciles with our own personal property. This is all about forming our own packs in society, with each pack seeking to forge its own way.
Now, to form larger societies, that pack philosophy must be modified to allow for packs to merge together ... families struggling for the same cause. To do so, laws must be introduced that all must follow and there must be an authority that can never be overthrown, lest the collective be led to chaos.
That's where we turn back to our creator, for surely no one can shake a sword at him and have any effect. You can't overthrow that which isn't physical, thus you obey or accept the consequences.
So ... knowing that religion is a good thing and solidifies us in larger packs, why are people turning away from it? Knowledge ...
Where early man accepted what he was told as he could prove no different, the current evolution of man can see many inconsistencies and finds himself not believing what generations before just accepted as truth. This philosophy seeks to separate us all again, unless we embrace something new to accept as watchman over us all.
Without knowing it, those who have stayed with religion profess it so loudly now, as they see the erosion of society, and somewhere inside see religion as the answer to put everything back into place ... and they are right.
Religion is once again evolving ... as it did at the time of the ancient Egyptians, as it did in the time of Christ, and as it did in the Dark Ages. Mankind needs something new to believe in ... something we can all accept as fact and give reverence to.
For thousands of years we have counted on various gods to bring us the rains that irrigate our crops, punish those who are corrupt and evil, and keep our livestock safe from harm so that we have food.
It is through our own (evil) inteligence that we have become gods in our own sense, being able to control or manipulate the forces once given to God's control - and we have often done so in a poor fashion.
We all need something new to believe in ... whether it truly exists or not ... for we are still a species based on pack mentality, and every day of chaos bring the pack one step closer to our door.
And yet ... there is still one God left that we cannot dispel or ignore ... creation itself ... for we are incapable of creating all that is around us, which must give us to believe that there is a force greater than our own which is capable of wonders we could never achieve.
And does creation care how we behave? Most certainly not, as creation just continues on its path, creating more stars in the sky and destroying those that have passed their prime. And yet, as humans we can give substance and meaning to anything, so why not give the face of creation to our God, as we did many thousands of years ago?
Is it that wrong to want to exist in peace, all in the name of creation? After all, if it were not for the power of creation, none of us would exist - and many in the future would never be born.
We don't need versus commanding us what to do ... we need to know that we answer to a power greater than our own, and that sin ... the sin of knowledge ... was a blessing in disguise, as it allowed us to understand the need to go against pack mentality to thrive as a species. As much vinegar as it is wine, intelligence is the only chance our species has to continue on without destroying itself.
This is why God placed that symbolic tree in the Garden and told us not to eat from it. He knew we needed intelligence to survive, but he also understood the chaos that would follow from its discovery. As for the Devil, often depicted as the tempter of Eve, he had his own agenda, which I will explain.
Again, this will get into a subject that many will disagree upon, which is fine, but please don't fight over it, as it's merely an opinion - nothing more.
The Devil represents pack mentality. Everything he stands for is about forming a world where individuals can seek gains by ignoring the needs of others. Consider all of the deadly sins and apply this logic ... it fits. It makes sense that the Devil would want us to become intelligent, as it is easier to corrupt a man with intelligence than a man who possesses none.
Consider all of the good acts and evil acts your mind can manifest. For each evil act, ask yourself, how would it benefit society as a whole? The truth becomes readily apparent ... evil seeks to separate society and good seeks to make it whole. As such, the paradox of God placing the Tree of Life before man and telling him not to eat of it ... he realizes the good that could come of it, but also realizes the evil that will be unleashed. As such, he leaves the choice to man, who then is persuaded by the inner devil to go through with it.
It's our first use of free will ... to eat the apple ... followed by our second ... to wear clothing. As such, the Tree of Life brought us free will and now we must temper its usage with wisdom. To make every choice benefit the many, we must wisely consider them, which is why so many laws were adopted by early man ... allowing those yet to be born to learn from the mistakes of those born in the past.
That's why religious tomes exist and are often written in the form of stories, as these are more readily understood and accepted. Still, these are knowledge passed down from man to man, under the authority of a God we can not see, hear, feel, or touch, unless we are willing to believe he is present.
And that's why people resist the word when it's given, as we are creatures given to think for ourselves. And to that I say ... the way a lesson is given matters not, so long as the word is accepted. By that I mean, it doesn't matter what or who someone choses to believe in, so long as they attempt to be a productive part of society that doesn't fester their life away trying to destroy it.
Creation still exists as the most powerful force in the galaxy ... and until the day comes when we harness the energy to create our own galaxy, creation will rule on. As such, even those who believe not in God can believe in creation and understand the importance of living within the boundaries of society to perpetuate our species. For should we ever decide to enc our existence on this world due to a final war, creation will pass us by without ever giving further consideration to if we were ever here.
Sin is a manifestation created in the minds of men, but to ignore its existence and embrace it can only lead to chaos. As such, whether we chose to believe in God or not, we must still believe that we can function together as a society, or find ourselves returned back to the dawning of man, roaming the Earth like pack animals and accomplishing nothing more than feeding ourselves.
Religion is the mental evolution of mankind where he realizes the importance of his interactions with others. As such, it certainly has its place in this world when it's not being used to manipulate the needs of others to benefit the few .. as this then devolves down to evil.
A good example is the many small groups over the ages who have committed suicide in God's name. They served no agenda other than their own, which laid them in the hands of the Devil.
God did not create sin, nor did the Devil. Rather, we created and gave existence to all through our own beliefs and continue to do so today. As such, the best we can all do is to continually weigh the needs of the many versus the wants of the few ... as that is the true path that leads us all to a better life.
um ... yeah ... wasn't expecting that to turn into a book. Sorry.
For starters you think too much! It's a matter of faith and it's intangible. Some people have to hold something to know it's true, I 'll never know how they handle a bank! I believe you're right on the point it's a guide for life, the rest not so much. One miracle continues to happen over and over again, and has for 2000yrs and it's the life of Jesus and the affect on people his word touches. It defies all logical thought and continues to grow even in a world of sin and doubt.
And what did the Egyptians believe in when they assembled the Great Pyramid?
They believed in something, but it wasn't God as we know him ... and yet, that belief allowed them to create an enduring monument that still stands today.
As the Egyptians believed in other gods, were they incapable of accomplishing anything? Look at the history and you will see they accomplished much ... and were as deeply religious (if not more so) than those who followed.
Accept things by faith? A man who does not open his eyes in blind. If all were to accept everything by faith then none of us would be on this forum today. After all, what need would there be to communicate our thoughts and ideas if we only needed to believe in everything and never question it?
Consider the many inventions throughout the years and ask ... what place do they hold, other than to make life more convenient? We could easily go out and hunt down animals with spears and grow our own food, so why don't we? Why did we aspire to be more?
Does faith drive one to discoveries? If so, tell me where in faith it says that a man should spend his time questioning such things as how a bird flies, enabling him to one day create an airplane. Faith tells us to accept everything without question ... such as the world being flat, which is a prime example.
Back before the days of Columbus it was proposed for thousands of years that the world was flat. This was accepted on faith and never questioned. Heck, the Greeks offered up proof and people accepted this as fact for thousands of years.
Buy then, mankind became doubtful and set sail to seek the truth ... and discovered that the world was round. Had mankind went totally on faith and believed everything he had been ever told, would any of us be here today?
Faith is a belief in something you can not see, hear, touch, feel, or taste, but it should never be a condition where we stop questioning things.
To be honest, sometimes a lack of faith bolster it! After all, we can't prove God exists ... but we can't disprove it either. As such, we can't say with any certainty he doesn't exist, and every shot at disproving it only proves it more.
As for the Earth being flat ... one trip around the world resolved that one as not being true ... so we don't believe that anymore.
When mankind stops questioning everything around him he stops prospering. What if ... what if tomorrow we harness an endless supply of free energy that is enough for the whole world and what if ... we create an endless food supply tomorrow that feeds everyone? People are working on that today, though there are those that say such a thing does not exist.
Based on faith, we should stop such silly inquiries, as we can't create endless energy or endless food supplies ... but what if we eventually do? Will we consider those people foolish then for not having faith in old beliefs?
Faith is not about being blind ... it's about accepting that which has not yet been disproved, with an open mind to the possibility we could be wrong.
it wasn't faith that ignited scientific achievement - it was questioning, analyzing and imagination.
no inquiry is "silly". in fact, many of the questions i had as a small child were answered with comments like "Based on faith, we should stop such silly inquiries".
Totally, totally agree with this. Right on, in my head.
which is why i am still asking.
someday hopefully they will be answered. i have faith...
But didn't you just answer your own question? Questioning, analyzing, and imagination are the answers, aren't they? I mean, we don't even have to have right answers to begin with, because it's still a journey and was pointed out that "right" and "wrong" shift in their complex meanings depending on circumstances. So, the answers are based in facts, in discover, and in knowledge. However, I think "meaning" of anything is more about philosophy, about peering outside the box and saying "what if..." And therefore, it adds a new dimension of understanding and comprehension to discovery and fact.
At least that's how I tend to look at it.
you're right, Daniel. some things will probably never be fully explained and require our weighing every possibility and using our own experience and imagination to help us find answers, especially when we ponder the existence of God, why we are here, etc.
my questions re: the Bible are usually pretty cut-and-dried and relate to things like "what does speaking in tongues mean" and "why did God turn Sarah into a pillar of salt when he could have just forgiven her for being human" etc...
Hence, I think the Bible is wonderful for symbolic meaning, and detrimental when taken literally. We inquiring, demanding skeptics have a tendency to yell less and demand more of our zealot friends.
It was not Sarah....been a long time eh?
Speaking in tongues means to pray in the spirit in other languages either of angels or God.
I agree ... We all would question the bible much less if we were allowed to read it for ourselves. Instead, we are often told in a fire and brimstone manner what it all means, causing us to fear opening the cover, lest we all dispel in flame.
It's real simple ... The Bible is part truth and part legend ... but totally about how to live a good life among your fellow humans. Take from it the lessons it offers and you will do yourself no harm.
If taken in the context of absolute truths ... that's when the Bible becomes a vile document capable of inciting wars and pestilence.
Quite simply, it's a book of all of man's wisdom, written up until around the time of Christ ... and we were quite wise back then.
Knowledge isn't forbidden fruit ... what is forbidden is some of the applications given to that knowledge.
According to Paul Adam was the one who introduced sin into the world and it was one of the Catholic Church Fathers that coined the term “original sin”. However; we must remember the God destroyed the entire earth because of sin, saving only Noah and his righteous family. After the Flood there wasn’t suppose to be any more sin on the planet earth.
So you see the concept of original sin is moot. What happened on the planet before the flood was washed away. We were all born through Noah and his sons.
And didn’t Yahweh state that a child would no longer be punished for the sins of his parents?
Sin is in the blood, so Noah still had some in him.
Being righteous has nothing to do with being sinless.
This is elementary.
If that’s the case it didn’t make sense for God to destroy the earth knowing that he wouldn’t be able to get rid of every bit and drop of sin on the planet. So we can say that sin re-entered the world through Noah and his family. After all he was the 1st drunk mentioned in the buybull.
The way that I understand it, angels came down to earth and made babies with our women and there were giants in the land.
The flood came and drowned all of them. There must have been a descendant of the giants on Noah's arch or another angel made another baby or where did Goliath come from?
I think that there might have been a little bit of sin stuck on the seat of Noah's pants or something because it seems as though the propensity in presuming ourselves God like is still around.
When we get over that, we will be alright!
The Lion of the tribe of Judah is humble.
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