Only they would exist, cruising Eden, all innocent. Naming things, etc.
I've posted this one before but it never gets old. Go ahead and laugh it off!
The Garden was meant for the transformation od Adam from innocent knowing to knowing knowing.
We would exist still if he did not ...but just as innocent as he was.
But there wouldn't be any sex, no way of procreating.
dont get it all mixed up...
because of the garden these things are, the things that belong to the flesh.
Sex and sin are not inseparable. In fact, sex had nothing to do with the 'original sin'.
Sex isn't in itself sinful, only when it's performed in the wrong context. God intended it to be the consummation of an ordained union. It's a gift of intimacy to those who are bound to each other before God and state. And a biological design for procreation. If we'd never sinned we would have sex we would just use it perfectly and purely, unlike how we use it today.
WRONG! not just Adam and Eve would exist. God instructed them to be "Fruitful and Multiply" therefore every person born from them would be alive and well and living whereever, sinfree.
Do not put the original sin on poor Adam.
Eve, being the evil and scheming female that she was, committed that first sin all by herself. She then compounded her nefarious deed by corrupting the heretofore pristine Adam and causing him to commit the second sin.
So don't put man and the original sin together - it was all a feminine action. Besides, we are quite capable of making our own sins!
Not at all. Woman created sin, then corrupted man.
That we men learned the technique so well doesn't make the original sin ours - it will always belong to woman.
OK, you got your point across, do you have any input on the question, or was your point the point.
That is incorrect, if I may say it politely.
Eve lead Adam astray? Do you not think the symbolism is that Eve attracted Adam by the way she looked and Adam couldn't resist?
Why name it "original" instead of naming it first sin?
Well, as they say, it took the devil himself, the ultimate trickster, to tempt Eve but only a woman to tempt Adam. They both sinned. Adam chose to do it. We choose to commit sin, no one can make us do it but ourselves and we are responsible for it. Eve is responsible for her own sin and Adam is responsible for his. Blaming someone else for your sin is just sign of further weakness.
Inherited original sin is a myth invented by the Catholic Church. It is completely illogical. At what point during pregnancy or the birth process does sin magically get applied? We inherit genes from our parents and that's it.
Everybody knows that 'Inherited original sin is a myth invented by the Catholic Church. It is completely illogical.' But thanks for re-iterating that stale point for anyone living on Mars that hadn't gotten it yet.
My point is if there was no sex there would be no human race, so we are better off damned and living.
On that, I can agree with you. Living with our head in the clouds is getting us nowhere.
Just what has sex got to do with the story about Adam and Eve?
"Wherefore , as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned...." Romans 5:12
This does not validate original sin doctrine. One man sins, death results, so death is inherited, not sin.
All sin but that does not mean sin is inherited. According to David in the psalms, he praised God for fearfully and wonderfully knitting him together in his mother's womb. So how can that which God has made be inherently sinful? Impossible.
Adam and Eve were husband and wife; sex was not prohibited to them; of course they had it very naturally.
There was no Adam and Eve - This is merely part of the creation myth of the Christian church and no more valid than the creation myths of any other church or belief. I take it that you don't believe that the Egyptian god Ra masturbated the world into existence, yet it is just as valid, with the same likelihood of being true as the Christian or any other creation myth. If the other 99% of creation myths come across as nonsense, what makes this particular one different?
The biblical story of Adam and Eve predates Christianity by at least a thousand years. Both Genesis and the Sumerian creation myth, from a tablet often referred to as Eridu Genesis, told a very similar story. Neither can be dated with any certainty, but both are from the same region that civilization first began. In fact, I just published my very first hub that discusses this topic called 'Adam wasn't the first human, for the bible tells us so".
Adam and Eve are mentioned in Torah; which is Jewish in origin.
The supposed original sin is disobedience.
Both Adam and Eve are at fault, not just one or the other. The irony of the whole situation is that "G/god" created humankind? Since "G/god" is all things, in every place, in all things, then "G/god" would be the original ignorant fool for thinking 'he' could create "perfection" and expect it remain "perfect".
What makes you think perfection was the goal?
Did 'he' or did 'he' not create humankind in 'his' own image?
"G/god" is supposedly "perfect" in every way imaginable.
You should read the rest of that line. The 'image' and 'likeness' was chosen to serve a particular purpose. It had nothing to do with our will.
I don't need to read the rest of the line, I've read the foolish book enough in my life. I'm sure there is a "supposed" purpose and it's not mutual exclusive with our will as individuals.
It goes to show the ignorance of those who read the foolish book and serve a "G/god" who is ignorant as much as "his" supposed creation.
End of story. Good day!
There can be no free will in the Christian religion. Their god has the property of Omniscience. He "knows all that was, all that is, and all that will be". i.e. he knows the future - Therefore he knows whether someone will die a sinner before he even creates them, which suggests that he either wants to have some sinners to punish for eternity (a bit unfair), or he's just toying with us - I thought he was supposed to be a good bloke.
I can see what you're saying. True, even with free will He still knows what we'll do. Basically, if your an all-powerful God, you've got three choices. No existence, exist but everything and everyone follows your will exactly, or existence with free will which includes the ability to live in harmony or be destructive. That destructive tendency is an unavoidable cancer in life, so for life to be possible it can't be allowed to do what comes naturally and destroy it. I think this life is for our benefit. In it we get to live life and experience free will. All he requires is that we acknowledge He, being the creator, knows best. He's like your body's DNA. If each and every cell in your body had the choice whether or not to behave according to what the DNA code says, then at any moment any cell in your body could become cancerous. Ultimately this endangers the body as a whole. For the body to live, the cancer must be removed. I don't think it's anything vindictive or sadistic. It's just what's necessary.
Adam and Eve did not commit any original sin; they were innocent people. The sinners are those who make it hereditary while it is not.
You're correct in saying "Adam and Eve did not commit any original sin." But Adam alone DID.
And on what basis did you formulate the latter part of your comment?
Genesis mention of Adam and Eve committing a mistake; but that was forgiven by the Creator God ; it was not the original sin; this is invention of Paul and the Church; they made a hereditary sin just to support their invented religion named "Christianity"; it has got nothing to do with Jesus.
So, one guy (and his girlfriend) screw up, and the rest of us are tried, judged and executed. Doesn't sound terribly God-like...now does it.
What people don't seem to realize is that God actually wrote only the Ten Commandments. The rest of the bible leading up to that is a collection of storie passed down by word of mouth as history, within the already existing twelve tribes. They all already knew these stories...they were not received by Moses from God...Just the ten commandments.
Sorry HeadyvonNoggin I can't see it. So God knows even before he creates people like Hitler and Stalin that they will end up killing and torturing millions of men, women and children, causing misery and pain on a massive scale, but he just says "what the hell, I'll do it anyway" - the rationale being that "at least Stalin and Hitler will get to experience life"? No God would do that - And if they did, they they have flunked the qualification for being a "loving god". As I said in the earlier comment, when God knows the outcome even before he creates the people, then there is no free will - It's an illusion, because you can't escape the pre-known consequenses. It also means that evil people have therefore been put here purposely by God - and it's not to teach us a lesson - To learn lessons you need to have choice, which requires free will.
If the bible speaks of a life after this one that is eternal, which life would you think is the priority? If you're given the opportunity to live just a few short decades experiencing the best and worst of life with free will, including all the pain and misery that goes along with that, is that really so bad? If the knowledge of this life allows for free will in the next life? Eternally?
It's my opinion that the purpose of this life is to let it play out. To let us do what we do so we can see what ultimately happens. Before Jesus, God played a more active role to protect the bloodline, but once the savior was born, He could step back and let us behave 'while the master is away'. He lets us doubt He's there. He lets us think maybe there's nobody watching. No repercussions for our actions. Then He judges us righteously by our actions in accordance to how much we know and understand.
With all of human history to draw from, we would have a knowledge base in the next life that cannot be taught. Just like teaching a child by showing or doing works way better than just trying to explain something to them. Again, this is just my opinion.
Also, God knowing ahead of time what you will choose does not mean you don't have the choice.
@ HeadlyvonNoggin - Regarding your statement:
"He lets us doubt He's there. He lets us think maybe there's nobody watching. No repercussions for our actions. Then He judges us righteously by our actions in accordance to how much we know and understand. "
Having established that god is omnicient, and knows "all that will be", then what is the point in the above charade. Why would he let us "doubt he is there", then "judge us" after the fact, when he already knows every detail of how our life is going to play out? It's not as if anything is going to turn out different because he lets it play out. Why does he not cut to the chase, not create these people and condemn them to hell or wherever instead, and save a lot of misery in the process. Please don't say it's to teach the sinners a lesson - How are they supposed to apply what they have learned in" everlasting punishment", which they were already condemned to suffer, even before they were born.
First, I want to again clarify that my belief that the purpose of life is God allowing life to play out... that's for our benefit, not His. You're right, He does know how it will play out. We don't. And just as Adam and Eve proved, just as the tribes of Israel proved, just as every Christian or Jew Or Muslim has proven since this all started, we can't just be told.
Believe me, I know what you're saying and I understand. Everyone I think would agree that choices in life are not easy, but I would hope most agree it's still ultimately worth it. For life with free will to be possible, there will ultimately be some that fail. So, does that mean that the whole thing just isn't worth it? When all He requires is that you simply acknowledge with your own individual will that He is the ultimate authority? Should we negate all existence simply because some will not? To simply remove the 'bad seeds' ahead of time kind of negates the whole purpose. To me, all of existence being totally pointless is sadder than all the worst acts of man combined because all of the good things humans managed would be meaningless.
As for the eternal damnation thing, I'm not totally convinced. This is not something I've researched very heavily, so please don't just take my word for it, but every mention I run across in the bible that discusses the 'eternal fire' of hell sounds like it's describing the fire as eternal, not necessarily eternal beings burning eternally. The whole fire and brimstone thing was a relatively late addition as far as I can tell. Personally, I'm of the opinion that a lot of that came from the church's desire to control the masses through fear. It certainly keeps attendance up.
@ HeadlyvonNoggin. "He requires is that you simply acknowledge with your own individual will that He is the ultimate authority?" - when did he tell you this? Or are you quoting from a Bible which is known to be highly edited and riddled with forged content? I was not suggesting that we should negate all existence, or that life wasn't worth it. On the contrary, life is a fantastic wonderfull, journey and I'm pleased to be a part of it. I also believe that we all have free will - This concept only becomes a nonsense if we invoke an all-powerful god, because by definition, everything is then his responsibility/fault. Neither am I banking on a "better life" after I'm dead, simply because a religion (which, let's face it, has been lifted, chapter and verse from several preceding pagan religions) says it will happen. When the logical inconsistencies in this way of thinking are pointed out, believers often come back with ever more tortuous "yes but" explanations in order to make it fit. They will often use as an argument, the ever popular "this happens because god want's to..." gambit. They never explain how they come to know the mind of their god, other than some extrapolation from whichever holy book they are afilliated with. It becomes obvious from the "yes but" additions that they do not really know - they are just guessing in a way that they hope will fit with their general philosophy. I believe in free will and a wonderful life, and feel no need to abdigate responsibility to an all-controlling imaginary friend in the sky, or wish my one and only life away pining for a "better" one that supposedly happens after I'm dead
@ HeadlyvonNoggin - Regarding your statement:
"God knowing ahead of time what you will choose does not mean you don't have the choice."
It does however make your choices pointless - It's not as if any choice you make is going to surprise him - in fact it makes the whole "lets give them free will and see what they do with it" pointless - because he already knows.
Are you sure this is how god works? because sometimes it looks like you are making it up as you go along.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect your perspective or viewpoint however I have heard this argument before and I don't agree with it logically or spiritually. The premise of the argument is to say that God has created evil when nothing could be further from the truth.
God has given mankind free will now if God is the architecture of evil knowing or not knowing what is going to occur in the future has no basis for free will-Free will means one has the right to choose. Apparently Lucifer had free will did God orchestrate that Lucifer should try and dethrone him through violence?
If God created mankind was it/is it God's desire to kill that which he has gone out of his way to try and save?
If our child is having a problem with a bully and at some point our child takes a brick and hits the bully are we as parents and the reason for such an act?
Knowing something is going to happen does not in and of itself mean you are the cause of it for if that were so we would be arresting a lot more people who profess to be psychic.
I'm sorry, but you can't get away from the fact that (whether the illusion of free will has been bought into by his creations or not), If God puts a Stalin or Hitler (or Lucifer for that matter), into existence knowing with certainty what the consequenses will be, then he HAS caused them. It was HIS idea, HIS choice, HE wanted it. He could have chosen otherwise. Presumably (being a God), free will for him is not an illusion.
Not True with your point of view that would mean every child that went out and robbed, lied, and did such evil is the cause of the parents.
People are given free choice they choose badly most time it's no one's fault but their own. They made the decision it wasn't forced upon them.
Please understand, free will creates evil. If evil didn't exist then it wouldn't really be free will. Look at homo sapiens. That is life without free will and without evil. Homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years in harmony with the natural world. Only when free will was introduced did everything change. Life is possible without evil, but life with free will isn't. Would you prefer we all live like early homo sapiens? Content to simply live one day to the next, hunting, gathering, sleeping, eating, pooping, then die a few decades later? What would there be to gain from that? What could we learn from that? What would be the point?
@ HeadlyvonNoggin - No, god created evil - Believers tell us that god created everything - "everything", by definition, must include evil. If god exists, then there is no "free will" - His knowledge of "everything that will be" makes people's lives a done deal before they are even born - It may look like "free will", but there is nothing you can do, to change the outcome - which god already knows. Evolution from early homo sapiens to where we are today, is the result of science and technology, not a belief in god.
Yes, in an algebraic equation, you're right.
(God created us, we create evil) = (God created evil)
I'll give you that. He created the creators of evil.
Free will makes us creators, does it not? Like in Gen 2 when God brings the animals to Adam to see what He will call them. Adam 'creates' names. These names were not of God's making. God being God knew what he would come up with, but the names were created by Adam. That's why free will is so dangerous. That's why God immediately cut off the tree of life so that these beings would not also live forever.
And that's why separating the people and confusing their language at Babel was necessary in Genesis 11. If you remember He made a comment about how nothing these 'children of men' imagine will be withheld from them. We have an incredible power that no other living creature in the natural world has. We can create great cities and bombs and religions and TVs. No other creature on earth can do this.
We can also create evil. Evil is anything outside of God's will. God's will dictates the laws of physics. It dictates the interactions between living organisms. It dictates what motivates everything He created...
-let the sea bring forth life, and it did, even if it meant growing lungs and legs to comply
-let the bird fly in the heavens, and it did
-let them be fruitful and multiply and populate the earth, and they did.
We can act outside of that. We're the only species that can. Just like we're the only species that creates waste and destroys and pollutes like we do, just to live. We come up with our own ideas. Pretty good ones from time to time. But still the kinds of ideas that you would expect from a species that's only been around during the last .001% of Earth's history. We're capable, just not very good at it, which makes us dangerous... and messy.
@ HeadlyvonNoggin - you said "Free will makes us creators, does it not?"
You are still clinging to this false notion of "Free will", When god has the veto on whether we are created or not, and he can make such decisions because he knows exactly how our lives pan out and end, even before we are born, Then the only one with a real choice or "free will" is his. What we percieve as our own "free will" is an illusion - granted, it may keep us happy, but it is just a conjouring trick. We have no power to ultimately change anything, because he always has that veto - If stuff happens, it is because he wanted it to - Isn't that what believers always say when unpalatable things happen? - "it's god's will"?
You also said "Evil is anything outside of God's will." The definition of god also includes Omnipotence - .i.e nothing is outside his will, therefore, if evil exists, it IS his will.
There is no getting away from the cold hard fact that if such a being as god exists, then pain, suffering, torture,evil, and death are a reality only because HE WANTS THEM TO EXIST.
He created Lucifer in the full knowledge that the angel would rebel and become the meister of evil on earth - BUT HE STILL WENT AHEAD AND CREATED HIM!
Can you see a pattern forming here? If god exists, then the buck stops with him. Everything both good and evil must be his responsibility, and it's not some sort of test to see how we react to it, his abillity to know the future makes all that stuff redundant. Therefore, he must be doing all this for his own pleasure. If god exists, then we are just his toys.
I apologize for not responding sooner. Somehow I missed these replies.
I get what you mean when you say everything He created He's responsible for and that He has 'veto power'. Obviously, He didn't simply veto things He didn't agree with or we wouldn't know about them. He let them happen. He gave us free will and lets us live with the consequences. If He didn't, what would be the point?
Free will means you have to have the option. Including right and wrong. Good and evil. It's your choice. The possibility of evil must exist or it's not truly free will. We create evil when we choose to use our power of creativity and free will to do something that harms. Usually it's when we choose to do something for selfish reasons.
Basically, God has 3 choices. No existence. Existence with every form of life simply living according to His will. Existence with beings that have their own minds and their own will. He chose C. Sure, He could control it. He could roll back time and change things when humans muck things up. But that would negate the whole purpose. Why give us free will if He's just going to override it?
Just look at history. It's all right there. Civilization is the embodiment of human free will at work. The civilization that sprang up in Mesopotamia about 7000 years ago, and spread from there, is filled with stories of humans taking more than they need.
Just look at the tribal cultures that still exist today. Those cultures that never bred with 'civilized' humans. Those cultures who were geographically cut off. They continue to live to this day content with a simple life with no desire to take more than they need.
Something happened in Mesopotamia between 10000 and 5000 BC. Something significant. Human history shows a distinct difference between the humans of these 'civilized societies' that spread all throughout Eurupe and Asia and Northern Africa. A difference that remained until civilization reached them.
In some cases, they haven't changed. Like the tribal cultures of Central Africa and the Aborigines of Australia. In others they have, like the humans in North and South America, who were geographically cut off from the time the Bering Land Bridge was covered by elevated sea levels around 10000 BC to the time civilization reached them by crossing the Atlantic ocean.
There's plenty to this beyond just what's found in the bible and plenty to back up what I'm trying to point out. This isn't just some wildly speculated view with no basis in facts.
p.s. You say God didn't create evil - Believers tell us that before God there was nothing - He created everything. That must by definition include evil.
It remains true because you cite different circumstances - The parents had no way of knowing before they concieved their child that it would rob or murder - If they had they may have chosen not to have it. In God's case he knows DEFINITELY (being a god and all), that Stalin WILL torture and murder six million people - and still CHOOSES to put him on the earth - He has free will. The free will of the parents you mentioned is just an illusion. Their paths on earth are pre-ordained, God (being a god and all) already knows how their story (and their childrens story) ends before they were even begun.
I agree. God's foreknowledge of my wrongful action in no way negates the fact that it is wrong.
@ David Pech - Nobody said it negates the fact that it is wrong - Of course it is wrong. That wasn't the point - The point was that if a god brings somebody into existence with the full foreknowledge that that person will create evil (because he knows the future), then the ultimate responsibility for that evil, is god's - How could it be otherwise? he could have chosen not to do it. To then condem that person to everlasting pain in hell is extremely hypocritical - He has in effect created that person simply to inflict everlasting punishment on him.
So, God wasn't smart enough to lock the Garden gate that led to the trees that were poisonous to the children? Knowledge of any kind is evil? What is the message here. I think it's safe to say that God didn't write that part.
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