Have you outgrown your original sin nature?
I have been working quite hard at looking at sin. One thing that stands out clear is that elder people generally do not sin. They may be jerks but they don't do others harm. I reflect on my own life run riot for 40 years and more. But I have not harmed my God or others for quite some time. (yes children worry about me but not because I harmed)
I am beginning to think that we graduate out of sin. Or we are bad to the bone and stay there.
Would you share your thoughts on this please. We all can do better.
"Sin" is defined as "missing the mark" and "original" as "something inherited due to our destinies requiring us to explore the two sides of everything in order to determine the joining point and live according to the circumstances which will sometimes require us to move to one side or the other. " That process has no end.
If it is defined as something inherited without a purpose then there is no such thing as "original sin" so no one has ever had it to need to outgrow.
Either way, No one can outgrow it.
Not buying it Elijah. There are basically 30+ definitions of sin. Like the 20+ of Love. And original is not a linear concept it is inception of soul based.We do no inherit - we carry forward by your logic. You are missing the mark on this answer.
Spirit has but one definition for every word, divided man gave them the others. When spirit led it reveals which definition to used for its purposes. We'll miss the mark on every plane after earth, it's require for understanding or we're conditioned.
God didn't create 30 different definitions for sin. Sin is a human concept that is so misunderstood & ramped up in the Christian religion, its ridiculous. You're clueless about sin: 'they know not what they do'. Its what makes C's dangerous.
Your wrong Catherine -- or are John 8 & 9 wrong. Christ talks about sin not man. But maybe I get your point. "Go and sin no more" and "Neither the parents or the man has sinned". Yes I could see where you get your theory.
CM, god provide 1 definition to every word man have ever used, man alter them to control others. Spiritual people seek god for definitions to comprehend what is spiritual although god prescribed the definitions man change his into. See Isa 45:7
We are not bad, Bro, neither do we graduate out of sin. Of course this is my take. Since I grew up in Christianity, then I am familiar with it. Still, it is not the big bad bull or really nasty figure that will eventually send us in a lake of brimstone and fire. In fact, sin is effectively quite simple and dare I say 'cool.'
You are immortal and made in the image of God. You are Love Itself and you are a shinning diamond. Perhaps a little rusty, let us say, like me. That is all. And by the way, age has very little to do with this and the old or young is not really any different.
It is the nature of things that we all carry obstacles or impediments; things that binds us; that transgresses the Law (sin) as simple as that. The spiritual life comes with regulations and practices, whatever path you follow: pray, serve; be merciful; love your neighbour; Love God and so much more.
It is in the application of these things that life begins to become meaningful. Before this, we are simply using the intellect. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Man is mystical and it is through mystery that he will return to his true Source.
I do not know about original sin. The soul is perfect and indestructible. But in the process of its many incarnations, it acquires impressions that needs to be transformed. Some makes us weak and some give us strength. Loosely speaking, one can say that sin is that which make us weak: hatred, resentment, greed, attachments, jealousy, insecurities, fear, ego, lust .....
Let me just say that with the spirit of acceptance, these things are necessary but not evil, as they come to assist or enhance growth. Desire is necessary, without which we cannot grow. All is in God and consequently useful. There is nothing outside of the divine-- that One birthless and deathless whole. Continue your practice ... persevere. Life is evolutionary and we are not stagnant but in progress to a greater whole. God speed!!
Oh what a marvelous well written and thought out response. Chit chat and one step at that. We just kind of move along a progression like our Palm Sunday march. Yet I was sinless last Christmas, sinful yesterday and pure today. Not linear at all.
One will be what one wishes to be, see what one wishes to see, depending on the Divine. There really is no mystery. Grace has all the answers and is ever patient.
Spiritual things are spiritually discerned & Christ say require rebirthing, integrating femininity with Masculinity for thinking whole. We miss the mark/sin for that lack of unity on this plane & will demand another unity on each succeeding p
U & Elijah R half-right: there is NOTHING about 'sin' that makes us weak - it is meant to make us stronger as ALL things R. This is not to say sin is 'good'. Who sins when they are HAPPY? Sin is meant to PUSH us toward the good desires it creates
Funny thing how much the word sin is thrown around.
Sin...what is it?I did a little experiment in my younger days (back when I cared) to find if there is a consensus on what sin is.I asked people for their definition(in private)...still haven't heard any two definitions alike.
People argue about sin just like they argue about God...but no one defines either one of them before,during,or after the argument...ergo...people just like to argue...is that a sin?
Really a great comment. This is my third question along these lines and I just published my second sermon along these lines. I really am trying to find a 50 yr. plus who sins. Maybe adultery will come up. But not yet.
True of most every judgmental adjective, CT, but spirit suggested to me sin only means missing the mark, a necessary part of education- objectively observing, participating for different outcomes & reasoning to explain their purposes to others.
Hello Eric . . .
I think that is a tough question with too much thought. Sharing your post on original sin and two sermons inspired me on a journey still continuing. So, I could wander quite a ways with thoughts. But, for now I offer next.
I like what manatita44 had to say. It brings a sense of enlightenment with an aim of spirituality. I think your two sermons hints at that too. In that context I think we do outgrow our original sin nature. We overcome sins of the flesh (Nature) through our spirituality or spiritual maturity (Nurture). I say that in the context we are a whole being born in the flesh with a soul or spirit. Together they act as one. So, IMHO, we can outgrow our original sin nature.
My boy and I am scheming a deal for Mom's birthday. And I sit back and play https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7SvofIl--g
I am so much in love that I do not get it. I fail at sin, I thrive on love. We dance with sin, I just cannot get these things.
TM, the garden in Eden story is a metaphor of man's dividing freshly from spiritual natures within us makes sin only a term representing the nature we are living under until the new birth makes whole again.
I think that your concept is correct in large part.
This one gives a lot of room and scope to find an answer. I pass for now. Did like it. John W
John I am working on yet a third sermon on sin. My boy 7 just wanted clarification of when you have to lie like an undercover cop or spy. Maybe there are no answers - which perhaps is answer of itself.
Lies have a purpose as all 'sin' does. Often, it is to keep the other person's feelings from turning against you for something you've done 'wrong'. Spies & Cops have different reasons for using lies. In jokes is yet another different reason.
In retrospect I am not so sure that we do outgrow our sin Nature. We can learn to bring it under control. Our Potential for sin is always with us. That potential does not make us Bad People. What makes us bad are choices made consciously hurt others
John I was speaking with a sports therapists dude yesterday. I did downhill ski racing. There is a fear of going over 70 on shear ice. We do not make it go away, we channel it. Our sin nature should be channeled. Empathy? But not committed.
An emphasis on the sinfulness of man caters to a power play that has been around since a caveman observed nature and human behavior just enough to blame drought on whoever made the rain god angry.
Religion, particularly Christianity, has established itself as the only way to deal with the sin problem. That is the power play throughout much of human history. Follow the Christian way or burn for eternity.
An emphasis on the sinfulness of man makes good people bad in their own eyes and creates a dependency on whoever has the cure for sin. This is the power play in action.
What if the truth really is that we all have an opportunity to grow, to become better? What if no point of salvation is needed? We live, consider the needs of others near and far, then attempt to use our natural abilities and strengths to alleviate suffering.
Do we outgrow sin or do we simply learn over time to be givers and not takers?
It is not a favorite area for me as folks seem invested in being sinful. Just my friends here announce it. But they do not show it. They simply are not but have to be by custom. So perhaps I have lost some friends. This is growth. Thank you friend.
NT (Acts to Rev) teaching on sin/eternal punishment was borrowed from Egyptians of 3k BC. I've written on this. Sin and sin nature, as described in NT, does not exist. There is only immaturity–>growth–>maturity. We outgrow immaturity, not sin n
Chris what is the name of the article where you deal with this. I want to learn more of a maturity scale. This sounds really good. I would suppose there is allowance for regression
Eric, my hub is only about the adoption of hell as punishment for sin. I have not written on the "Maturity" aspect. Short URL is http://hub.me/ajvoD. Since you asked, I feel free to post the URL. Remove it if you feel you should.
I think you can post the full URL as I cannot get there from here. But I also think we should race off to speak of maturity. That just sounds so right.
I'll leave the URL off for now unless it is requested. I emphasize growth into maturity because it is intuitive, it makes sense. We can all see how immaturity leads to bad choices with consequences. We grow as we learn from these.
U hit the nail on the head, Chris - this is exactly right. We have internal tools that develop our maturity. Humans have tried to control sin; but do we punish a child who falls when learning to walk? We think bcuz we're over 30 we're mature.
Re: maturity. I learned this in AA: "We will not regret the past nor wish to close the door on it." We embrace failure. We learn its consequences which leads to maturity. That is better than fearing punishment for sin, an immature response.
This strikes a chord with me. How many times have people told us to "believe" or we will go to hell? Sin and we go to hell? If I avoided bad conduct for fear, I fail. If I avoid it because doing good is it's own reward I am victorious.
I've noticed you've been preoccupied with this subject. Misunderstanding sin is one of the most dangerous beliefs within Christianity. You're all stuck in the honey unable to move - calling it 'bad stuff' when it is actually a life-giving substance.
Jesus to Nicodemus: "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."
Christ is ALSO 'in heaven'. His SPIRIT remains in heaven WHILE he is 'in the flesh' - "even the Son of man which IS IN heaven" - there is NO SEPARATION between Christ's Holy Spirit and the flesh of Christ. He originated 'as spirit' in heaven; and as such, remains connected to all that he is when he is here.
This was the original message of Christ - that we are 'just like him'; NOT that he was going to die and 'save us' from our sins. Jesus supposedly having no sin nature does not come close to resembling our human experience. Sacrifices to atone for sins was a pagan concept; and the people of this world had made considerable sacrifices to their various gods & goddesses throughout history up to that point. Christ was trying to enlighten people - that was a lie.
“The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”
Keep in mind the new perspective of Paul's teachings as you read this: Romans 8:1-2 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus [your christos] has set you free from the [pagan] law of sin and of death."
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
You can't 'form light' unless you also 'create darkness'... God is light, there is no source for darkness - there is only the absense of light; and that is the choice we make as humans every day. Are we choosing light or the absense of it in any given moment? Either choice is okay because we have REASONS for making those choices. Its why we can't make a wrong one. Perceptions are part of our ever-expanding personal identity.
More importantly, we are God's sons & daughters: creators just like him as Jesus tried to teach us. Based on the original creation formula, agony (or any negative emotion) causes desire to expand the soul until it can realize how to create the desire. This is how the 'Kingdom of God' has been slowly expanding since humans started inhabiting this planet & will continue.
This is great stuff. Thank you Catherine. I get confused when you jump back and forth between the Bible and calling us out for being pagan worshipers. Is the Bible Pagan at it's base or just the Catholic church?
It is a mix of ancient pagan, jewish & christian texts collected by pagans trying to unite the roman empire. Its not like they were trying to deceive anyone - they likely didn't understand. Certain parts are VERY pagan such as 'salvation'.
Just answer straight up. Is the Bible based on paganism? Are you saying that Christianity is not based on Christ? Please do not weasel.
I'm not weaseling, C's R not ALL wrong. U know as well as I that God's word is SPIRIT not squiggles in a book, so his word is everywhere - even within Bible which contains truths from all 3 spiritual perspectives. 1st spothub explains deets.
Catherine I really like and respect your perspective. Can any author/persuasionist ever truly separate themselves from the traditional culture when communicating - writing, like the Bible. I try in my sermons, it is really hard.
Tools like The Bible R still valid bcuz provides a common understanding with comparative ways to reveal both lies & truths. When preaching to C's - use bible. Muslims, the Koran - Jews, the Torah, etc. No religion is 'pure' & holy books DO re
Seems there is truth to "no religion is pure" and that includes yours. Or am I wrong on that. Your view is pure and others faulty?
I don't have a religion, Eric. No religion is pure bcuz human minds distort - its supposed to. Mind has a purpose: to create a life in this existence. We are already spirit b4 we're born & we return to our spiritual home as spirit w/o religion.
Perhaps Catherine you are bigoted against the word religion like so many, easy definition is; the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
I would say you love and love fits that definition.
I would completely disagree with the way you used the word bigoted; and you are misunderstanding bcuz you can't completely see outside of the Christian box, yet - though you do better than most. God isn't 'controlling' & I don't worship him/her.
Are you really seeking an answer to this phenomena called "sin"? Or do you just like reading what others have to say and offering the occasional criticism?
A Blessed Pascha,
How interesting. I think your premise is wrong. Criticism? Maybe. You ask if I am seeking "an" answer. I am interested in all the answers and generally critical when one suggests it is "the" answer. Yes, this is an inquiry not a search for a winner.
Well then Mr Dieker, it appears you likewise are relativistic in your ecclesiology. Christ established only one Church in His Apostles while they handed it down directly in an unbroken descendancy. Every other "church" since 1072 a.d. are man-made.
I wonder friend who gave you that date. In communist countries they pick a date and say if this church was not here then it is not a church. I think there was a church or two that predate the Council.
The full explanation exceeds the space here. The Church of the Apostles continued until the 11th c. with the Great Schism of East/West in 1054. The Schism was not universally realized until the ascension to the papal throne by Pope Gregory VII.
FR are you really coming here with intellectual informed Christians and going to insist on Catholic doctrine? It only works inside Catholicism. I am on my fourth year of heave study of the Catechism and it only relates within- not without.
Catholic Doctrine? As in Papists? By no means Sir! I am an Orthodox Christian! Rome has been in heresy & schism since 1072.
Aren't you a bit sqeamish using Fr. I thought that term is reserved for our father in heaven. Eastern or Russian Orthodox as both had a schism. I lean toward Russian and have friends there.
Squirmish? You are funny. If I were squirmish I should have found a different vocation. I am a monk of the Russian Orthodox Church outside Russia (ROCOR)
See my comment about Orginal Sin elsewhere herein.
Well my new friend the Monk and Father. I welcome you. Please follow me along on our journey. I do not think God is waiting for us at the end. I think Jesus will walk with us the whole way. May love be your companion as it is mine.
I think that we were born sinless. Sin is something that we grow in to. And if we are able to grow into sin, we must also must be able to grow out of it. Sins of youth seem to be mostly sins of excess. Sin can be mistakes and errors, but sins can also be choices we make that we know are the wrong ones, but we think that these choices will somehow make us happy at the time. We learn from our mistakes, We learn repentance, which is more than being sorry for our sins; it is a returning to our original sinless nature. And we can do this long before becoming an old fart like me. I am sure there is more to the story than this. It is something to think about.
This is just wonderful Paul, thank you. You put it into a very clear cycle of life. The turning around which is repentance is a critical factor in growing better not older.
PKF, I also see repentance not as being sorry but finding the proper use for actions and living accordingly. Example: man's sex acts are mostly for pleasure but our genders, like for all animate life, are made only for maintaining our specie.
I was reading somewhere that the word 'sin' took on a different meaning over time, and that the original word meant "to miss the mark," as in an arrow missing its mark. Or another way of putting it: to be off track.
I don't know what human mind came up with this business of 'original sin' in its present form; that we have to 'earn our way to heaven' by pleasing a God which has many of the attributes of a petulant egotistical parent, who gets angry when his kids don't please him.
Now, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "outgrown your original sin nature." Even as a young child I found that concept difficult to accept - and I never really did. "As innocent as a newborn babe," sounds pretty right to me.
Don't misunderstand me. I know there is God. Not 'a' God but "is God." And I know that God is Unconditional Love, Indescribable Joy, Compassion, and Infinite Understanding. That came to me in an "moment of grace," as Christians would call it, an epiphany many years ago when I was experiencing deep spiritual trouble.
But don't make the mistake, as so many do, that God is "over there,' and we are 'over here.' God is omni-present and therefore in everything including you. If you're having any problems with 'sin' then you can put that down to your thinking and the interpretation of beliefs held within you by your conditioning.
Nobody has a original sin nature.
So before you ask this question, you should ask first where did the concept of the original Sin come from.
The answer is from the bible and from the old testament.
And the old testament is a copy of the Jewish Torah.
That means the Torah should be the source of the Old testament.
And that the Sin concept should be also in the Torah.
But the truth is, there is no Sin concept in the Torah.
In fact there is no source to be found what can proof that the "original Sin" was in the Torah.
There is also no proof that the same old testament with the "original Sin" concept is to be found, before the birth of Christ.
The dead sea scrolls and the original books of David proof that there is no original Sin in the Jewish books.
And that should be the case, if the OT was a direct copy of the Torah.
Unless the OT was changed.
And that is the only conclusion to be made here, because the OT and the NT came after Christ.
There is no evidence or archaeological evidence that the OT, with the Sin fall concept, had a source before Christ.
It was made up to make a start for the story of Christ.
Because he came on earth for our Sins, he died for our Sins.
There for we must believe in Jesus for our Sins.
But the truth is, the Sin fall concept was twisted and made up.
In the Jewish Torah was god angry on Adam and Eve, but he did not curse them.
He kept them in ignorance, and that they need to find the path of god to come back to the source.
And in the Jewish concept are humans enlighten beings, and not beings who are born in Sin.
There for the teachings of the kaballah, to give knowledge for everyone to reach enlightenment.
So the original Sin what you are asking about, is nothing more or less than a twisted concept, what explain the unexplainble for the moment.
But the truth is, that if we don't learn from child how to be a human or how to train our mind or spirit, or feelings in our body.
Then we are doomed to make mistakes or even get used of making mistakes.
It has nothing to do with the original sin, and more with ignorance about who or what humans are.
And please don't believe me, or disbelieve me... Google it and see for your self.
But your question is like the following question.
So how could Jesus died for something what never exist?
The only difference is, you believe in context of your question and i searched for evidence about my question.
And evidence is not a feeling or a thought.
Evidence are archaeological findings.
A marvelous statement of your faith based on proof. I really see where you are coming from on the Torah. It just smacks of priests putting it together to create sins in order to create need for priestly confession and forgiveness.
Sin needs to be kept in perspective: it was created by pagans to explain things they didn't understand; plus, there IS a correlation to feeling bad/doing bad things & having bad stuff happen as a result. Its a step cavemen took & now we are h
I agree, no sin nature. But I see in Gen 3 a basis for the concept. God sentenced A&E for rebellion. E was to be mother of all living w/ consequences of sin passed on to children. Next step-belief that nature to commit sin was also passed on, i.e
I think my biggest issue here is that my Christian friends insist that they are born sinners. And to say not is to challenge and call them wrong. People need sin in order to be saved from it. It is a pounded in construct.
What the people need is the truth from there perspective. They need to open there eyes from the point they are standing. Many subjects are simply a bridge to far, or out of there reach to understand it properly. Many don't even know what a fallacy is
Yes, I have. I am a born again Christian. I Satan tries to attack me I just go open my garage door and say, " Get thee behind me Satan". You can't harm me because Jesus is my protector. Now get out of my house. Amen.
LT, do you have made things (Romans 1:20) you tell others to reveal what happened during your rebirth? I have, metamorphosis, a being's behavior is changed into another without discarnating but is very, very different from what it was before.
When the God is known for showing Love towards all there is no place for Sin. God knows only Love. Whether you pray for him or not he is there to protect you and listen to your prayers. We may not be believing him but he will bless us unconditionally in the same way as he blesses his regular devotee.
A nice statement of a Universalism notion. Thank you.
SB, IT's love is unconditional which means it allows man to explore for the purpose of comprehending, called grace, so missing the mark or sin is only one part of it. However, bless is interpreted as "be less than civilized" or live ecologically.
The answer to your question is a question again what do you define as a sin ?? because it may vary from person to person, religion to religion or situation to situation as per me. I know that many of you may disagree with me and the same and would say that a sin is a sin nevertheless of person, religion or situation...Lets take an examples for each one of them :-
1. Person : If suppose a senior officer fires a junior needy officer (who is the only money maker in house) without any reason just because of personal jealousy and grudge than he commits a sin by stilling the basic bread and butter of the family. but now if suppose a beggar father stills a loaf of bread from a bakery to feed his hungry children at home he does not commit any sin according to me.
2. Religion : Most simple example is Killing animals and eating their meat is not a sin in many religions like Christianity or Islam but is considered a sin in Hindu religion or Buddhism.
3. Situation : Taking some drugs or fish oil etc are forbidden in some religions but if suppose a person is suffering from a serious decease and consumes the same its not a sin according to me.
So first define what are the sin and what now to get answer to your question also i would advise you not to thing about the same as long as you dont hurt anyone physically or mentally because there is no heaven or hell we need to worry about whatever you do good or bad you are doing to get the return on it here itself in this life....
Sin, missing the mark. That answer is because karma or reaping what's sown is the law of existence along with our purpose being to experience every perceivable experience in existence, thus, judgmental adjectives prevent our comprehending that.
The 'return' is the Law of Attraction which is also the law of existence: what you BELIEVE is what comes to you - which is why you still believe what you do about karma, Elijah.
Amit, let me be frank with you. The English here is terrible. The facts are wrong. Hindu & Buddhists eat meat except within certain factions and certain ways. That makes what you say hard to take serious.
But yes sin is often relative.
@Elijah & Catherine - Agreed till certain extent @Eric - Thx a lot for being so frank and yes The English is terrible but as far as i know we are here to express your thought and knowledge about a specific subject and so we should all concentrate
MC, "return" is just another term for "karma" and "reaping what's sown" which implies yo don't know the meaning of your terms. Tanks for revealing yourself.
Adults become better at hiding their dark sides, children just tend to let it all hang out.
If we say we're doing God or others no harm, the underlying assumption is that we humans without God's empowerment are able to think and discern reality the way God does. If that were the case, God wouldn't be God because we'd be capable in and of ourselves to completely understand Him. This applies to sin, in that God's standard of righteousness cannot be attained or fully understood by unredeemed mankind.
Now if we are born again, we have the mind of Christ, and therefore have the potential to think and discern like God does. After we are born again, our nature changes and though will still sin now and then we no longer have the predisposition towards sin because our nature has been redeemed through the blood of Jesus.
Very interesting and well thought out. So we need God like discernment to avoid sinning?
Thanks! You're right we need God like discernment but we need to trust in Jesus to be born again to have the mind of Christ and receive His nature.
I believe that we must love Jesus with all our mind, body and soul -- which would include but be more than just trust. But maybe that is just semantics.
Absolutely, to love God (Jesus) with all our mind, body and soul is summation of the law but its only possible to love like that if we're empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so. And for that we need to have Christ living inside of us.
Ecc. 3:1-8 say there's a time for sin even after the new birth, Isa.7:14-22 say to become born-agains we must forsake god and devil over death and Ex. 3:!4 say god's mind is I Am That I Am so maybe we should rethink becoming sunless.
Elijah -- let me read those verses and get back to you. Maybe you could elaborate more.
"no longer have the predisposition towards sin." For 50+ yrs as Christian/missionary/student/pastor, I believed that concept but never saw it lived out. Christians live no differently than others. This is a theological idea, not practical truth
Chris I think you have to get pretty danged nitpicky to find an 80 year old Christian sinning. I mean what are they going to do? Have sin in the heart? I get your concept but not the details.
Eric,re: my previous comment, wba has given the common Christian input on this topic which states that Christians are morally superior to non-Christians. What else could the words, "we no longer have the predisposition towards sin," mean? Ridiculous.
Thanks for that Chris. Now I see your concern. That is a very good thought. It would seem that thinking oneself morally/spiritually superior to another would be that Vainglory sin.Thereby axiomatically not superior at all.Cool!
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