My Genesis Gap Bible Teaching Audio Link
- JimLowposted 15 years ago
0The link I'm pasting below is an audio lecture I made on the "Genesis Gap" - "PreAdamic Creation" teaching. If this area of study interests you, you can click the link (takes you to a 2nd link) and it creates an mp3 file so you can play it on your media-player. It's free but secure - no spam or viruses can be attached to it.
The teaching is controversial in some circles but it reveals a great deal and is very much scripturally-backed in my opinion. Lots of well-respected Bible teachers/preachers fully accept this doctrine while others don't (it's also briefly outlined in the Dake Study Bible). The main importance is in whether it is truly backed by Bible scripture - and I firmly believe it is.
Some believe it is a compromise or justification of an incorrect doctrine however, I've seen all of the disagreements many, many times (for over 25 years) and none have convinced me that the doctrine is not valid. Most who refute it in-fact only refer to a couple or few scriptures that pertain to the teaching.
If you believe you have heard most points from the scriptures related to the teaching, you might take a listen to this audio, which is 42 minutes in length to see if you have actually heard a complete version of it.
WARNING: I was born and raised most of my life in Texas, so beware of my southern accent!
(NOTE: The link is good for 7 days but I'll try to renew it before it expires or figure out a way to make a permanent one.)
Download Link>> https://www.yousendit.com/download/TzY0 … RlozZUE9PQ
[P.S., If you don't like theology lectures or discussion, just steer-clear of this and you'll be fine. I welcome comments on this thread but I'll likely just let others post and will step aside. I can't express my view of the doctrine any better than I did-so in this lecture - Thanks!] - Ken R. Abellposted 15 years ago0
Got to it earlier than I thought I could, Jim. Am listening to it now. Good Scriptural basis & presented in a clear & cogent manner. Well done.
Very interesting fodder for my brain. Thanks. - Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago0
Jim, this was excellent.Fully supported by scripture.I basically had the outline formulated in my head but was as you said of others,(Never put it together all in one basket.)I like the pre-Adamic view of dinosaurs.That was always my general view that they were here prior to Adams creation.As for the fallen angels,does Revelation not say some were bound in the river Euphrates? John said two hundred thousand thousand?They`ve been bound since the fall?yes?.Thank you for encouraging me in your e-mail.May God richly bless you.Please do stay in touch.Love in Christ,Rick.
- JimLowposted 15 years ago0
Thank you both for letting me know what you thought of the lecture.
As I mention in my starting-thread, the teaching has opposition to it, even among Christians however, they often think it is simply a view that gives an alternative-view about "the age of the earth". It is in regard to so much more than that and are questions Christians have sought answers for from the beginning of the Church (body of Christ).
I could understand the opposition if there weren't so much scriptural backing for it but the passages that are in reference to it in so many different ways, confirm and compliment eachother which is exactly what finding truth in the scriptures is all about.
I used to put it this way - to those who see something different revealed in the scriptures:
If this is not what these scriptures a clearly revealing, then they need to scripturally answer these three extremely important questions -
Where did the devils/demons/evil spirits (Eph chapt 6) that are the tempters of mankind come from?
Since Satan was a fallen angel when he tempted Adam & Even in Eden, when did his fall take place?
With hell being "prepared for the devil and his angels" (Jesus - Mat 25:41), when exactly did God prepare that place for them that is described in multiple scriptures as being in the "heart of the earth"?
(Note: Hell itself is later cast into the "lake of fire", a location not revealed.)
If someone who disagrees with the teaching can answer these questions and explain why the sciptures say what they 'already say' on these subjects, I will listen to them very carefully. I've heard some people say that God doesn't desire for us to know these answers but if that's the case, why so many references to these things in his WORD? These are absolutely huge questions for many people and Christians.
Rick,
I believe that by Adam obeying Satan's desception in the Garden of Eden ("you will not surely die") this caused Adam's autority in the earth to fall to him (II Cor 4:4 "god of this world" - per Paul). This is also why Satan offered Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world" if he-too would bow to him (Luke 4:5). Jesus instead commanded Satan to get "behind" him.
I feel since Satan was 'the only' fallen angel described as being in Eden, tempting Adam, once Adam fell for it, this allowed Satan to loose other imprisoned angels onto the earth (II Pet 2:4 & Jude 6).
I also believe that despite Satan's gained-authority, he still has to ask God's permission to work his acts of darkness. If mankind has made the opening for him to do so (Gal 6:7).
I believe permission for the fallen angels/demons that will be released during the Geart Tribulation is delayed in being given because there is timing that will allow it. They are extremely destructive demons and will destroy a big portion of the earth, so God is simply delaying them permission until the timing of mankind's reaping for their sins has arrived.
That's my opinion and may not be correct in every respect.
Sorry - Long reply was not intended - Thanks again! - Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago0
Gosh Jim, Now it all comes together even more.What you`re saying about delaying the release of the more hideous,destructive angels.I always wondered why that area of the earth was so much more evil in it`s general way of delivering death.You know,mass executions,beheadings with knives.Not quick deaths, but cruel and inhuman ways that include great suffering,torture and torment.My goodness,the evil that is bound in that area.Being that it was the area of the creation of man and fall of satan.
- JimLowposted 15 years ago0
Great points Rick! There are some amazing truths in these scriptures.
While I'm adding below your comment I wanted to also mention that there are two additional areas I've have disagreements directed-at in regard to the pre-adamic fall of angels.
One of those is the arguement that says it wasn't an evil spirit or one that was in a fallen state due to having sinned and being seperated from God - that tempted Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. It obviously was an evil spirit however (fallen angel Lucifer/Satan) because this evil being accused God of lying:
"...Ye shall not surely die..." (Gen 3:4) < total contradiction of God's warning.
While God DOES NOT tempt men with evil, he allows temptation because otherwise choosing God is not a choice at all.
Secondly I've had people argue the point about Satan and fallen angels being cast down to earth and yet the bible repeatedly refers to Satan and angels being "cast down from Heaven". Where do they think they were cast down to?
Ez, Is, II-Pet and Jude refer to "cast to the ground" and "cast down to hell" << the same place described as being in the the "heart of the earth". Obviously if they were cast DOWN, it could not be said they were cast down from Heaven, to the ground in Heaven (that would not make sense at all)...no this "ground" was not in Heaven but somewhere down from it.
Some people might think this is "straining at a nat" so-to-speak but it's really not. There are some incredible revelations found in these passages. - Rick Marlowposted 15 years ago0
Jim,
I had always just assumed that the fallen angels and Lucifer were cast to the earth.I had also assumed this was pre Adam.Now it does make more sense that they would be put here,concidering that hell is in the center of the earth.Maybe some were in hell itself and some roamed the earth freely.I had also thought that the fallen ones may have had something to do with the demise of the dinosaurs.Of course this being pre-Adamic.I can only think of 2 references of dino`s in the Bible.One being Leviathan and the other being Behemouth.I believe both were Old Testament.
The tempter in the garden would have had to be in a fallen state, having occoured pre-Adamic.The only references to pre-Adamic fall was Lucifer and the fallen angels,correct? So why would it not be logical to assume who it was? These are fine points,maybe as you say ,threading the needle, but they are part of the overall picture.Now, according to what I understand, hell is still in the center of the earth,which contains the unsaved and daily increasing it`s volume.But Paradise has been removed to Heaven? Yes / no ?.Hell will be removed and placed in the Lake of Fire at the last judgement? - JimLowposted 15 years ago0
Rick, each point you made, has always been what I have always believed to be the case.
I've heard preachers from several Christian denominations preach on the subject of "Paradise" (place Old Testament righteous people were held until Christ completed redemption on the cross), including Baptist ministers and ones with full-gospel denominations like Assembly of God. So I know for a fact it is widely held as a well-recognized Bible doctrine.
The doctrine recognizes "hell" and it's several compartments (tartarus-abode of fallen angels, Paradise and bottomless pit) as being in "the heart of the earth". Paradise was moved up to the third Heaven where God's throne is after Jesus completed his blood sacrifice on the cross.
It's based on this:
Jesus stated to the thief crucified beside him - "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 23:43)
Even with Jesus having said this, he stated to Mary after being 3 days and 3 nights in the "heart of the earth" (Mat 12:40) - not to touch him>
"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)
Where was Jesus for those three 24 hour periods?
THE ANSWER: Ephesians 4:9 "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
Peter adds this to what Jesus did during those three days>
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" (I Pet 3:18-19)
Paul, in book of Ephesians gives a description of Jesus ascending to Heaven taking those who were held captive with him and also rewarding them for their acts of righteousness>
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." (Eph 4:8)
In Lukes Gospel chapt 16, there is a description of this place pre-redemption righteous people went-to until Jesus completed redemption and brought them with him to Heaven.
NOTICE ESPECIALLY VERSE 26>>>
"19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Hell itself will be placed in the Lake of Fire at some point:
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Rev 20:14)
Just like there are Christians who believe the Pre-Adamic fall of angels is incorrect, they will also say the doctrine about Paradise is incorrect but I don't know how in the world they can get around or completely ignore so much scriptural confirmation! It doesn't make me angry, just disappointed that they try to prevent others finding such wonderful things clearly revealed in the sciptures. - JimLowposted 15 years ago0
Also in regard to the Pre-Adamic fall of angels and flood of the earth (Genesis Gap), the first Bible teacher I heard give that doctrine was Dr, Howard C. Estep, who was over a prophetic ministry that following his death was taken over by Dave Bresse who gained his credentials through Northern Baptist Theological Seminary - so I assume Dr. Estep was Baptist as well or of a similar denomination.
I later attended a meeting by an Assembly of God minister, an evangelist well-respected in that denomination who was in his 60s at the time and he had banners placed on the wall of the church. These showed the "dispensations of time" and included one showing "original earth", followed by a "chaotic earth" and then followed by the "re-created earth" (placed back in-order).
Myself and a friend met with him after his service and he talked to us about his firm belief that a pre-adamic earth is clearly revealed in scripture.
My point being that there will be two camps who will always disagree on the teaching from every denomination but I feel in my case, my acceptance of it is thoroughly based on Bible scripture. - JimLowposted 15 years ago0
I wanted to make a final post on this thread, that comes from an email I sent in-reply to someone who very respectfully expressed their disagreements with aspects of the "pre-adamic fall of angels" (Genesis Gap). I feel certain they would not mind my sharing what I wrote to them.
I figure since I opended discussion on this doctrine I would add as many aspects related to it as I possibly could (I'm a thorough kind of guy - it's part of my calling).
Here's what I want to add from that email I wrote:
[It was very considerate of you to express your opinion on this to me. I totally respect your beliefs in this regard and also appreciate your kind way of expressing that disagreement.
Let me express why I do hold to aspects of the teaching, briefly if I possibly can:
The angels that fell were cast down to somewhere because it would be a misnomer to say they were cast from Heaven, down to Heaven. (We likely agree on this point.) But this poses the question as to why hell was prepared inside the earth.
This would be an absolutely huge event because demons likely number in the millions and have a hierarchy of ranks (Adam would not have missed such a catasrophic event).
When Daniel prayed at one point, the archangel Gabriel had to call for the assistance of Micheal the war angel because he was withstood by "the prince of Persia" for 20 days (Dan 10:13).
< I realize you know these scriptures but what I'm seeing from my view, is that Satan is the only fallen angel tempting Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden. Many other angles fell and were cast down to hell but some were released because of Adam's sin (2-Pet 2:4). This is why they are an organized system on earth today. (Ephesians chapt 6).
Satan did not sneak into the Garden of Eden without God's awareness of it but was given permission to tempt Adam just as God grants him permission in regard to other people who've been tempted by him (actually this is true of every temptation of every person - that has or ever will occur - our own actions can activate the tempters James 1:14).
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:" (Luke 22:31 - Peter did fall into sin -denial of Christ '3 times' but repented.)
"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown." (Job 2:3-7)
I personally do not believe Satan was Lucifer in the Garden of Eden but he was Satan the fallen angel or he would not have been on the earth nor would he have been tempting Adam. I believe he did so, strictly by permission from God.
There is a Bible Study-Source Webpage you can find by using the search-term>> "How, why, and when did Satan fall from heaven?"
The source does not believe in the Gap Theory (as stated in their other articles) but states "Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve in the Garden". (Some people believe Lucifer didn't fall until he tempted Adam but this view doesn't match the scriptural references to his fall and that of other angels.)
>Their 'ABOUT" page says their organization is; "Christian, Protestant, conservative, evangelical, fundamental, and non-denominational, with all of their published doctrines being approved by -S. Michael Houdmann; Master's degree in Christian Theology from Calvary Theological Seminary and a Bachelor's degree in Biblical Studies from Calvary Bible College.-
(I'm only adding the credentials to show that there are reputable theologians who believe in a pre-adamic fall of angels that rebelled.)
With the fall being pre-adamic, this answers a great many other questions in my opinion (including when and why hell was created).
At the same time, as I said before, this doctrine is like many others - Christians disagree but they love the Lord and are no-less fellow members of the body of Christ. Salvation as you and I know comes from personal relationship with Jesus Christ and not by having perfect perspective on these doctrines.
Absolutely NO ONE has achieved perfect knowledge on every Bible-doctrine and as soon as they claim they have, it's time to turn away from them.
Whole denominations disagree with eachother in regard to aspects of Baptism, Gifts of the Spirit, Unconditional Eternal Security etc, etc.... but this doesn't mean they are not still sincere and truly born-again believers in Christ.
If disagreeing on points of doctrine causes Christians to reject other Christians, that's where I draw-the-line. < This can become a form of manipulation and I will never be a part of it. It's a whole different thing when it is a major belief that there are departures on, such as belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior. << WE SHOULD NOT MESS WITH THE GOSPEL MESSAGE - EVER!
I state often that "I'm not sure" even in regard to aspects of the Genesis Gap (also state this in my audio-lecture) but I believe we can speak from, teach-from those aspects that we believe to be scripturally backed. When I add a degree of speculation, I state it as such and always will do this when the Bible is silent on particulars. Preachers and teachers do this often but they usually have the wisdom to differentiate absolutes-from-opinions for the sake of listeners.]
-End of that reply I wrote- (I hope it added something good to this thread.)
The Bible is a treasure of truths waiting to be discovered!
Almost forgot - I've been sent links of sources that oppose the Pre-Adamic/Genesis Gap teaching (have read at MANY of them). Following are ones that agree with the doctrine and to my surprize, the top one refers to an article I use to have posted at BellaOnline.com but the link to it no longer works. (I honestly didn't know I was referenced by an author of a published book!)
I hope since I'm not linking to my own stuff that posting these is acceptable under HubPages policy.
http://www.truthwaylife.com/reality/preAdamic.htm - "Pre- Adamic World and Roman 5:12-14"
http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/Gaptheory.html - "CREATION / GAP THEORY" - A Baptist Church published this one)
http://www.gospelcenterchurch.org/Gaptheory2.html (Part II by Baptist Church - Petersburg Gospel Center)
http://www.originofnations.org/HRP_Pape … Adamic.pdf "THE PRE-ADAMIC FLOOD"
http://www.countdownto6000.com/bm1.html "Biblical Mysteries Revealed"
http://www.messengersofpeace.org/preadamic.html "Pre-Adamic Creation"
http://www.bbmhp.org/editorial/tohu.html "Ruin-Reconstruction view" - Assembly of God Berean College (NOTE: This view is interesting because they disagree with most versions of the Gap Theory but accept a view of a Lucifer-involved ruin of earth and a re-creation of it.)
http://apocalypse2010.blogspot.com/2009 … ation.html - "The Gap Theory of Biblical Creation"
http://www.kjvbible.org/ - "Christian Geology Ministry"
http://www.ichthys.com/sr2-copy.htm - "The Satanic Rebellion" (Robert Dean Luginbill, Ph.D.)
There are huge numbers of links out there to sources that agree with versions of the Genesis Gap - Pre-Adamic happening of some type. These only represent a few of them. "Lucifer's Flood" also yields huge numbers of sources that both agree and disagree. Interesting!
Also see my newest Hub on this subject, ttled> See Chuck Missler's Video Series on the "Genesis Gap" - JimLowposted 15 years ago0
(What beliefs do I believe to be the most important beliefs from a Christian perspective? >> http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/25442 << NOTE: I do not include the pre-adamic/Gap Theory in this list but that's not to impy that the teaching is not extremely important in its proper place.)
What you all referred to as the "Gap" in time is actually a rift in eternity encapsulated ay time and space. This is so because it is first imperfect thus limited and subject to be destroyed or death.
This rift came about because of ignorance and this ignorance is synonymous with darkness which is the father of everything that is evil and satan as it's prince who was lucifer in eternity which is perfection.
This imperfect age came to be because of ignorance which can be illustated by the story of Adam when Eve was seperated from him , withdrew herself and resulted is consorting with ignorance or darkness represented by the serpent.
From this meeting darkness stole from her perfection by deception,which is represented by her eating the fruit.
On her return to Adam, he realized the theft and he in trun set about restoration of Eve by eating also the of the fruit with the sole purpose of redeeming Eve.
Remember that Adam was not deceived and Adam ( Christ) entered the domain of death (darkness) to redeem his Bride.
This entire age is two images, one of the kingdom of God and the other the kingdom of darkness. These are mere images and not reality. Reality is experienced in eternity,where the darkness and light, truth and lies, knowledge and ignorance are clearly demarcated.
And the children will go each to their separate and opposite fathers whether they be God or the devil.
So you see Satan is the father of the image of this age which he seen from both of his fathers light and darkness, but rather than repent he is about setting up his own kingdom mixing stolen light and darkness (his true father) through a system of laws which he is the overall God (God of this world).
For he himself hates the kingdom of darkness for as prince thereof he would be the most despised. But that is his ultimate future in eternity.
Hope you understand who then is man, for we stand far above this world as sons of God.
This we know as we cleanse ourselves by the knowledge of truth who is Christ in us. Truth is not in books nor writings but only within us written on the Heart.
Writings shows us images of truth but the Holy spirit ( Truth) show us clearly all things.
We should not justify ourselves by the images of truth and lies ( Bible).
But by only by truth Himself who is Christ the living word of God.
Serving the image is serving the God of this world, the antichrist.- JimLowposted 15 years ago0
Lots of philosophy in those beliefs Kess and you're certainly entitled to them. At the same time, you make some good statements.
This is my personal opinion but in my view, Christianity and the sciptures contain very little of what we call philosophy even though it is often placed into that category and is more-so a "reality" faith (I don't view revealed-truth, inspired by the Holy Spirit as philosophy). Of course a lot of that depends on definitions and one could say that Psalms and Proverbs are the more philisophical of the books in the Bible.
Christian Science and Dianetics come from the type view you have stated (in some respects) and they are certainly entitled to those type enterpretations if they choose to. From my view and opinion, I respectfully see it differently.
I do thank you for posting your view. My friend Christ is the focus of all philosophy and he is in the midst of it but many can not nor will ever find Him.
I do not consider my self a philosopher nor affiliate with any groupings, sect or denomination neither do I seek their company nor read any specific material.
For I have found that all writings are merely images reflections and shadows of Christ.
Though Christ can be found by any of these writings, men are drawn into error of serving these images rather than most high God whom the Christ represents.
But Christ will not be found unless a man searches within himself.
For Christ is truth.My friend Christ is the focus of all philosophy and he is in the midst of it but many cannot nor will ever find Him.
Jesus of nazareth was the greatest of all philosophers.
We all are philosophers though
I have not consider my self one nor affiliate with any groupings, sect or denomination neither do I seek their company nor do I read anyone specific material.
For I have found that all writings are merely images reflections and shadows of Christ.
Though Christ can be found by any of these writings, men are drawn into error of serving these images rather than most high God whom the Christ represents.
But Christ will not be found unless a man searches within himself.
For Christ is truth.
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