How can Satan be a Fallen Angel in light of these Scriptures?

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   celafoeposted 10 years ago

   How can Satan  be a Fallen Angel in light of these Scriptures?
   
   Because NO scripture can contradict another, please tell me how the church system can justify teaching that satan is a fallen angel .
   1 John 3:8  He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning.
   Col 1:16   For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him
   2 Peter 2:4   For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment

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   LoisRyan13903posted 10 years ago

   Why do I waste my time trying to answer these questions.  No contradiction seen at all and Eric is right on track

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      LoisRyan13903posted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Interesting Dashing I can write a hub about those.  As for me, since I am a Christian I follow New Testament Law.  And celeafoe I reread his answer and still say it has a lot to do with the question.  Still it was a good ques I was grumpy yesterday

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   taburkettposted 10 years ago

   Selectively choosing to compare one statement against another in the Bible is like comparing an outhouse to the Empire State Building. Each have 4 exterior walls, but definitely serve a different purpose. One must not eliminate context when reading the Bible or they will surely interpret it incorrectly. This is the case with the scripture mentioned within this question. When taken out of context, the reader is bound to establish the wrong conclusions.
   If the reader is seeking the truth, then the reader must conclude that all scripture must be analyzed in its entirety to correctly depict the meaning. Otherwise, the resulting conclusion is simply an abomination created by the reader. Thus is the case in most instances when non-Christians attempt to use single words or phrases to depict a situation or accusation.
   Truth withstands all challenges from such activity.

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      myeffortsposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, that's right. Not only in Christianity, but in all Scriptures, when things are quoted out of context, the resulting conclusion does not lead to truth.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      not 1 scripture that I used was out of context, but all that are used to show the false doctrine are taken completely out of context.   the 2 used to make it are both talking to specific men and not satan.  accept the lies or truth your choice

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   BuffaloGal1960posted 10 years ago

   I'm sorry, but I don't see how the Scriptures you gave makes Satan NOT a fallen angel. But right away in 1 John, men are being talked to.  God did create all things so I don't see how that proves Satan was not an angel either. I guess I don't understand.  But I will say this, when reading Scriptures you have to consider who is being talked to.  For example, if I said, "Go do the dishes" but you don't know who I am talking to, it really doesn't have any meaning. 
   
   Satan was Lucifer, an angel cast down.  He was musically talented but was jealous of God so he caused trouble.  I believe it was a third of the angels that went with him and they are bound until God chooses to release them. Once that happens, they will reek havoc like never before seen. Some Christians believe they have been released now. 
   
   The NT is more about how Christians should behave, how to be saved and the end times.  So rather than pull a Scripture out of context to stand alone, I interpret the Bible as a whole (with other Scriptures) to interpret the true meaning. 
   
   Also history is important. Think like a Jew, Greek or Roman did back then and it helps understand what they mean.  Like for example, how can a fighter plane or helicopter be described if you have never seen or known that type of technology?  You say, "and in the air was a scorpion that spit fire from it's tail" or "it looked like a locust but had a man's head" (pilot/helmets in the window of the locust shaped helicopter). 
   
   Also in certain chapters of Rev:  John is telling what he is seeing and then the next chapter he may be reflecting back on his own what he saw and you can tell this by what tense he is talking in.  I see/I saw...and so on.  The Bible is a bit complex at times, but with eagerness to learn it, we can learn and sometimes we make it complicated where it really isn't. 
   
   We will never know all the answers but that is why it is called "faith" (belief in the unseen).

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      you have clearly drunk the kool aid.   all scriptures were used in context
      if you understood scripture you would know Lucifer was the king of babylon Nebudknezzar. as it says in IS 14:4--  satan present in Gen but was not satan til isiaah hmmm wrong!

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   Michael-Milecposted 10 years ago

   ... an " angel has been  " created " , Satan became by choice...
   Similarly Adam has been created, became a sinner by  choice...
   The Scripture translation we are dealing with ; - does anyone knows the very original of the words/ meaning ( just asking, not willing to continue arguing, please).
   ... church system has very long tradition in its interpretation, - to show the better way, the redeemed ones " we " have choice/ chance to live the way of righteousness , so that millions and millions wil turn to follow a better way to" heaven ".

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      yes Michael I never do a study without knowing the original language meaning of the scriptures used.  and that context is correct.  Sometimes context is a chapter or more, tho I may only  use a few verses

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      Michael-Milecposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      My apology, sir.  Does " anyone" was meant  not you pesonally. The idea is , we're dealing with the texts , including original  while we " were " not right there to be able to pinpoint the fact when an angel became a fallen" satan " this far we know

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      the bible clearly states in more than 2 places that "everything" including principalities and powers were created by and for God .   and also that all angels that sinned ARE in chains til the judgement,  how can this unbound satan be a fallen angel

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      The fallen angels in chains of darkness dont mean they are bound in one place, they can move freely in the earth.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      chevy--   being cast down to hell and in chains 2 Pet and reserved in chains of darkness for judgement -- Jude 6--- the greek words used in these show as restrained/bound  and in darkness and gloom  --  in Hell - they do not roam on earth- check them

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Then what possesses people? devils, and devils are fallen angels.
      Jude 6 - He hath Reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment
      2 Pet.delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
      Reserved Unto judgment

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      chevy-- is it ok to send an email  there is not enough room here.
      The non Christian is  under the control of satan as he is the god of this world.  for the believer we have to 1st look at James 1:14.   based on this, the only thing he can do is tempt

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Sure it's ok , but satan is not omnipresent. Like I used Rev.12  to show a truth, satan led the 3rd of the angels and they were all cast out of Heaven Into the earth. Future but it shows where they've been all along.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      if you choose to not see I cannot change that.   using an event that is in the future to show how satan got in the garden is ridiculous.  access see Job 1:1, Job 2:1.  What kind of  a god  lets his creation outsmart him and harrass his people??

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       chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       I never said he wasnt in the garden, using a future reference is not ridiculous either. God had angels long before the earth began.  Your hub never proved satan was created in the garden. So was the other fallen angels created there also?

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       celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

       chevy-- i will email  you not room enough here to answer 
       Its amazing that in places where there has been no teaching from American and bri1tsh "missionaries  they do not believe it  because they see for themselves it is not true.  Kenya, china, ind

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   chevyssbowtieposted 10 years ago

   Yes, he is a fallen angel.
   Eze 28:12 - 17, Is. 14:12-15, Rev.12
   Although the reference in Eze. is about the king of tyre,  it is referring to satan, the spirit behind the scenes. notice the king of tyre cannot and was not an anointed cherub nor was he "created" nor was he in Eden the garden of God.  it is definitely speaking of the devil before his fall.
   
   Rev. is referring to satan and his angels.
   And there appeared a great wonder "in heaven", there appeared another wonder "in heaven" behold a great red dragon, And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, (that means the angels followed him).  the great dragon was cast out, (of Heaven)  that old serpent, called the devil, and satan, he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
   
   Jesus said He beheld satan cast out of Heaven as lightning. Luke 10:18
   
   2Pe_2:4  For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
   
   Jud_1:6  And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
   
   Angels that sinned and kept not their first estate are definitely fallen.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      He is not a fakken angel, he was in the garden.  They angels that fell are BOUND UNTIL JUDGEMENT.   Is. is about Nebuchadnezzar and EZ. is not about satan  you have surely drunk the kool aid   Satan was in the garden before IS or EZ. Rev is not yet

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      ok, so who is addressing in chapter 28? but remember whoever is being addressed it is said "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God"  and  "thou wast created" also God says "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Ezekiel 28:2
      "The prince of Tyrus" at the time was Ithobal, or Ithbaal II.

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Wrong, The one being addressed was called the anointed cherub, not a man, 2 Cannot be Neb, Neb was not anointed nor in the garden of Eden. 3 cannot be Adam, Adam was long dead before this time.
      and please take the limits off the comments.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      verse 2 of EZ in the original langusage calls him  "son of man, a man you are."
      tell me how to remove the limit, i hate the short space for an answer

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      Are you saying satan was an evil being in Heaven long before earth, or that he was an evil being that came with the beginning of earth?
      Fallen angels are in chains of darkness but they have free roam on earth.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      no satan was  not in heaven ( tho he had access before CHrist) he is a part of creation in the garden.   he is an earthy creation.   and any thing or any one that is BOUND is not free to run around.   you cant bind a spirit being with iron chain

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      chevyssbowtieposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      First, what scriptures to prove satan was  part of earthly creation.
      If all the fallen angels are bound and cannot roam the earth, then what possesses people?

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      read my hub , "where did satan come from" and then ask any questions you still have

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   JThomp42posted 10 years ago

   Then what is he celafoe? Please explain what your thought are on satan?

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      JT   read my hub" where did satan come from" for detailed  study
      then I will answer any questions you have. ok
      thanks, charlie

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   KenDeanAgudoposted 10 years ago

   Lucifer/satan was actually the angel of light . All angels have futuristic visions, so when they will be doing something they will know it's product or effect to them. Satan disobeyed God and wanted to be more powerful than God. So God punished him, not like humans, we don't know the consequences of our actions. but angels are on the different levels beyond us.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      He was never an angel   
      Prov 16:4 The Lord has made all for Himself,Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
      Isa 54:1616 "Behold, I have created the blacksmithWho blows the coals in the fire,or his work;And I have created the spoiler to destroy.

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   Rayne123posted 10 years ago

   Well I have my opinion, may not be right but its what I feel.
   
   First of all Satan exists where we let him, its just evil that tempts our souls.
   
   Those who drink and do drugs are sinning and any sin is the devil/evil.
   
   But you can resist right.  To me its that simple
   
   Now as for that scripture that you all seem to be discussing, . (very good question by the way)" thou shall not kill or thou shall not murder, to me that is straight forward also
   
   One person said how can God "flip flop" say one thing but then command another. Well he doesnt. The bible clearly states "Thou shall not kill" that means us here on earth, God can do whatever he wants and needs no justification really
   
   If God orders the killings or the wars/destruction of the earth are at the hands of the Lord then who are we to argue. What are they going to do, crawl up to heaven and handcuff God, dont think so.
   
   I wrote a hub on "Gods wrath" I did my research and put in my hub what I believe or see in my heart. It may not be all true to life but I think that most would agree with it.
   
   One thing I did mention is that God (like any of us or anything) needs to destroy to make new again right. If we want to fix something we need to take it apart to better it, hence the days of Israel when God destroyed it for betrayal then rebuild a better city.
   
   Well I believe these wars are in the hands of God, he gave us the tools to fix the world and we used them for our own selfish gain, so now God destroys what we ended up destroying only to build it back up when he is good and ready.
   
   As for evil, no one on this earth "gets away" with anything, God does what he wants when he wants to who he wants. Dont forget God created everyone/everything and as fast as he created us can tear us down.
   
   As for a fallen Angel, that really I cant give a clear cut answer because I am not sure. I do know that some think that our loved ones that pass on become our angels and they do not. Angels are messengers of God and existed way before us. They guard/guide us in times of troubles. Once the living pass on they have nothing to do with us nor our future.

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      celafoeposted 10 years agoin reply to this

      correct translation   OT:7523   ratsach (raw-tsakh'); a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:    as all opinions are useless , we need to have scriptural truth on anything we believe.

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