If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be s

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   SwordofManticorEposted 12 years ago

   If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?
   
   If eternal punishment is just, then saving those who still deserve eternal torture is unjust?

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   JThomp42posted 12 years ago

   SOM, my friend this question is very confusing and bordering on an oxymoron. Could you better rephrase the question?

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This question is only confusing to the christian who has the doctrine of hell tatood into his mind and belief system.

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      JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Seriously, please explain the question?

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Basically, If the bible teaches that all have sinned and fallen short of God, Then if all sin is bad then all are deserving of hell. By that logic would it then mean that whomever is saved from hell is saved unjustly Since we all should be punished?

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you Deepes

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I got you SOM

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you accuse anyone else on my hubs or questions as cherry pickers, I will delete any more post you submit, because I could just as easily accuse you of the same.

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      JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      SOM... Do as you wish. Your threats do not bother me. My opinion will not change as yours will not change.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Do it once more and you,re gone. We could just as easily have done it to you. Accusing any one of cherry picking scripture is not an argument. It is an insult.

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      JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It is not an insult. It is truth!!

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       Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Did I miss something? I didn't see any accusation of cherry picking. But I guess I did since there was no denial of the accusation

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       JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Deepes.. The only thing I said is we cannot take scripture out of context, we must read the whole chapter to understand what is being said. This is when I was accused.

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       Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Which in itself is true. We cannot take specific scriptures out of context. We also have to make sure we aren't taking whole chapters out of context either.

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       JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Absolutely!!

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       Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       But one thing I always have to remember is that messages can get lost when translated from one language to another. Also, some versions of the Bible are translations of translations interpreted to suit the writer of certain versions.

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   Ms Deeposted 12 years ago

   This would be true if Christ, the perfect Son of Man, had not died on the cross for the sins of those who believe this. However, the answer to your question is "no" because Christ by having died for the sins of mankind, justifies those who believe this, accepting this gift of His sacrifice for them.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ty Dee, but the gift of grace has already been given to us all with no strings attached. If there is a condition to recieving a gift, it is no gift at all.

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      ExpectGreatThingsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      SOM - The gift is indeed free to us, but we must accept/receive it in order for it to benefit us. See John 1:9. Side note: the gift is free to us, but it cost Jesus His life. Where does the Bible say the gift has ALREADY been given to us?

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Sorry Deepes, I accidently deleted your comment.

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I still see the comment I left.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That one MUST except a gift to have it makes it a condition, therefore it is no longer a gift. As for John1:9 all I need to say is that every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Christ is Lord.

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      Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      SOM, It is a choice of accepting or rejecting the gift. It is not a gift that is forced on us with no choice but to HAVE to accept it. It is there only if you want it.

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That is true Ms Dee, But the point is that it isn't a gift that he takes back at anytime. It is always there and ready for if or when we choose to accept it

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, Deepes. what happens to the one that does not except the gift?

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      Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The funny thing is that at one point in their lives most of them had already accepted the gift. Therefore they are already covered

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       ExpectGreatThingsposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Oops. I meant John 1:12. Also, to your last question to deepes, I think the answer can be found in John 3:18: ...whoever does not believe (in Jesus) is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

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   Deepes Mindposted 12 years ago

   We can never justify our own actions to God. He doesn't choose justified people. God justifies the people chosen. So by that matter, nobody is unjustly saved.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      that is a good way of looking at it.

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   renegadetoryposted 12 years ago

   Ok, I have to retract some previous statements that I made regarding the existence of eternal punishment for sinners (at least I'm pretty sure I made some at some point) because I based these statements on logic, not Scripture.
   
   After doing some research into this whole torment in hell for an eternity (thanks to the countless questions being asked here) I have come to a conclusion: God does not punish non-believers for an eternity in hell.  Sorry, but the Scriptures do not back this theory (which came from the Dark Ages might I add).
   
   I don't want to go on and on about each Scripture, but I will as briefly as I can make my points (and I also want to say that I am willing to admit I may not be completely right here):
   
   The big issue seems to stem from the translation of the Hebrew word "Sheol" and the translators idea of picking and choosing to translate this word to hell when Scripture speaks of evil people but then changing it to mean "the grave" or "pit" when used in Scripture referencing righteous people (if anyone wants specific instances of this I will be happy to provide Scriptures, since there are plenty).
   
   Romans 6:22 says the wages of sin is.... (drum roll please).. death.  Oops!  Doesn't say eternal torture or punishment.
   
   Another good one is Revelation 20:13- "Death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them."  Uhh, wha??  This not only says that there are "dead" people in hell, but that hell now delivered them for judgement? 
   
   With regard to the lake of fire or Gehenna... the fires were always burning in this garbage dump that existed (and which Christ used as an example so people would understand) to do what?  Destroy garbage! If you burn garbage does it burn forever? Noo.  They threw bodies of dead animal carcasses in this as well of the bodies of criminals.  Why would Jesus use this example if it meant burning forever and ever?  That makes no sense. 
   
   Note Matthew 10:28- "But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."  Doesn't say "torment" it says destroy.
   
   There is so many holes in this eternal damnation stuff...
   
   Let's use Luke 12:47 & 48- "And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.  But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few."
   
   What happened to one punishment fits all?  That would make null the laws of the OT with regard to punishment fitting the crime.

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thank you for stopping by. May I ask you how long have you believed in what you just wrote?

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      JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      All of you just boggle my mind thinking you are wiser than those who translated the words of the Bible.

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      renegadetoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      As of this morning!  I was up at 6:30 AM going through Scripture :-)

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      @Renegad, did you also believe in hell like I once did?

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      renegadetoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Actually no, I was taught that people die in the second death and just simply no longer exist, but I was listening to a certain preacher and he preached hell fire and it made me question what I was taught.  So I checked what the Scripture says!

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      SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Praise God. He has freed you from this doctrine. When you wrote "I am willing to admite I am wrong", That was me 4 years ago. When we allow our selves the possibility of being wrong, we get a better understanding of who God is.

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      renegadetoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      1 Thessalonians 5:21
      Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

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      Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You mention Rev 20:13, but I wonder what you think of 20:15. So who do you think are thrown into the lake of fire?

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      JThomp42posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Picking and choosing scripture does nothing but take it out of context. You must read the whole chapter to really understand what God is saying. Totally agree Ms. Dee!

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       SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       When do you believe the book of Revelations was written?

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       Deepes Mindposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       JT, Your comment seems to be judgmental to me. Who said we think we are wiser than those who translated  the bible? If you study languages will find that messages get lost in translation. Let me ask you this, What version of the bible do you use?

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       renegadetoryposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Rev 20:15 says that unbelievers (those not in the book of life) are cast into the lake of fire (Gehenna) it does not state that they burn for an eternity. Gehenna fire (literal) burned to destroy what was cast into it.

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       SwordofManticorEposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Mal 4 talks about the same fire. It is my belief that Gehenna was symbolic for the prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem AD70

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       Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       renegadetory, Thanks for your response on Rev 20:15. I see more where you are coming from now . You have a point that in 20:10 the Devil and cohorts are said to be tormented forever but 20:15 does not say that about unbelievers.

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