Is your belief based on faith, logic, or both?

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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Is your belief based on faith, logic, or both?

Can a person be logical if they have an illogical belief or faith?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How long must you go on with this? Is posting this so many times logical when you already know the outcome?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't already know the outcome. I'm not a fortune teller. Besides, the threads usually get interrupted by posters that have nothing to do with the question posed.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You mean, logically you statistically cannot predict the outcome? Anyways, you just said you are not a fortune teller but you just told me...
  
  "the tread usually get interrupted by posters that have nothing to do with the question posed."
  
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Seriously, you asked a good question. I think I am obsessed with studying mine and others belief and the construction of the belief. I don't think theres anything wrong in it, maybe the tactics aren't always the best. lol
  
  I think you could logically say the thread has a good chance to end up as a disaster with a war of beliefs. But, this doesn't mean it's true. I have faith it will turn out great with all learning from one another while keeping a logical mind. lol
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Think of it this way.
  
  If you punched two people with the same amount of force, who's to say it hurt the same for both?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who's to say it wouldn't? Both would learn from the punch. lol
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's not the point and you know it.
  
  You know what I think? I think you really want to believe in god but don't want people to think you are stupid or something.
  
  I don't think people who believe in god are stupid. I think people say stupid things and if you are ashamed of what you really believe then you have a problem.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sandra, I don't think the biblical God is rational. This doesn't mean that i'm not open to the idea of creation or a creator/creators.
  
  Have you always assumed I was an atheist? If I was ashamed of what I believe, you really think I would state my beliefs in an open forum to be picked apart when the mob disagrees with me?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Come again, I never assumed you were an atheist.
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  cheaptrickposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I learned how to rebuild a carburetor today so whata ya mean
  "Nothing to do with the question posed".
  recon bro recon...lol...
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  Jewelsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Along similar lines as Sandra has said, your threads ask the same question. And to me the entire set of questions becomes circular dialogue which never reaches satisfaction, I think to you.
  
  When a person continually talks about logic and the mind, he is never out of the mind. One of the integral teachings of Buddhism and Hinduism is to go beyond the mind. You will NEVER reach the conclusions to the questions you ask from the ordinary mind.
  
  I can certainly see why people get frustrated with your threads. Not my intention to cause malaise to your logical thinking. But the only way to ever become satisfied with these types of questions is to have experiences, and this is how science and logic can intermingle with the unknown. The unknown is only unknown until it's known. A pioneer of the mind reaches beyond what he logically sees, to the apparent illogical and makes it known. It is not his job thereafter to force others to have the same experience, unless they ask to be shown how to have that same experience.
  
  Individual thought comes from one who wishes to be a pioneer beyond the known.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Point taken.
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  kmackey32posted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It must go on till the answers make sense to the one asking the questions...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You said it better than I could have. The answers are making a lot more sense to me on this thread than on previous ones.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Both, my logic helps me to understand and use the experiences in my life to predict probable outcomes to situations. Logic also produces a foundation that is re-peat-able by me in new situations. Faith, is where I am when I can't "prove" something to be true or untrue, but based on my past experiences, beliefs or instincts "believe" that something to be true.
  I do however keep an open mind on all the things I cannot prove as true. (Keeping an open mind is admitting that what we "believe" to be true may be completely wrong...)
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Great comment. I couldn't find one thing to disagree with.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Funny you should ask. I was just thinking as your question came up that I suspect we all believe what we believe because of our upbringing or cultural background (or sub-cultural background). Atheists included.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think that is true. New thoughts and beliefs are formed everyday.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I guess I was generalizing
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As a generalization, I agree.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes but only because you were brought up with that belief
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Nope. It's because I individualized and somehow found myself through the blinding society and mob.
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  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What was the question :p
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't remember, I have ADD.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If a person has a faith or belief that is completely off the rails then there is no way they can be logical. If some guy or gal straps explosives to their bodies and goes and blows up a bus full of school children with the idea that they will go to heaven because it is the enemy's children getting blown up has a few problems with logic. If you can't see that your family and friends are most likely to pay for what you have done or are going to do then there must be a gap in logic.
  
  The Cold War remained cold because religion didn't enter into it or at least not in a fanatical way. The Russians and the Red Chinese were very much family orientated to the point where they would not sacrifice themselves and their loved ones just to get at the enemy. This sounds pretty logical to me. No atomic missiles flying. On the other side the people of the West felt pretty much the same way. No atomic missiles flying.
  
  A war between two or three powerful nut-case religious nations with powerful atomic weapons might well spell out Armageddon. We haven't had that yet but if the USA goes really fanatically nut-job Christian and there are Muslim nations that are strongly nut-job Muslim then the world could be in real trouble. A bit of give and take and mutual respect can go out the window. Then you have doing anything for the faith including destroying yourself and your family. Logic? At that junction it is a foreign word.
  
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well stated, and that is the true risk of religious intolerence today. The destruction of the entire world, because "God Wills it". Very very scary!
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  lyricsingrayposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As is this thread.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  HUH? I don't understand... nevermind I got it, as is this thread, very very scary.
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  Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not have any belief. LOL at least not that I am aware of
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Misha! Are you back or just poking in?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, that was a little snappy. I just woke up and havent learnt to be civil yet. I need my coffee.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Let me start again,
  
  My answer is yes, a person can be logical in any case. One belief based on illogical reasoning or nonlogical reasoning (two different sorts of reasoning - illogical and NONLOGICAL) does not rule out logic on a larger scale.
  
  Faith is not necessarily illogical. Faith might be an issue entirely independent of logic. Perhaps, faith might be a decision come to by way of logical thought process, reaching the end of logic so far as science or natural evidence goes, whatever, doesn't matter. Faith based on self survival or happiness is still based on logic. If I decide to believe in god and I do so because it makes me happy, that might still be logical.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  More coffee, I still don't understand what your saying...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nice one.
  
  Logical, illogical and nonlogical. These are forms of reasoning. Logical reasoning is synonymous with valid reasoning. Illogical is then invalid, clearly. Nonlogic is not an issue.
  
  Logic can be applied to an isolated clause, i.e. if a then b
  
  Logic can also be applied to a broader claim, a complex argument
  
  Faith and logic are not necessarily incompatible but it belief in god is a complex argument. To be convinced of anything we must provide reasoning to our own self. Whether that reasoning is valid (logical) or not, who knows.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  the highlighted part I still don't understand...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Belief in god is a complex argument. Logic is a matter of valid conjecture according to set laws. Logic is not dependent on evidence.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Logic is a matter of critical reasoning that starts at a starting point and follows a set path leaving out no step in the process until it reaches a conclusion. Using evidence to get from one step in the process to the next.
  Logic is most definately dependent on evidence.
  
  Belief in God is a complex arguement, can you say "understatement"...
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I can see we are using variations of terms here.
  
  By complex argument I mean this,
  
  The argument to self, in attempting to believe in god may involve dozens or hundreds of sub questions and thus dozens or hundreds of conclusions. Some of these arguments may be left with a conclusion of no answer, thus left with a question. Dependent on the conclusions of all the other connected arguments, god may still prove logical dependent on the individual reasoning.
  
  P.S. I am not a religious person, nor a true believer of any sort. My conclusion to the question of god is a definite maybe. There is not enough evidence to prove god existence or non existence. I guess that would be agnostic?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again I don't understand what your trying to say...(the highlighted parts)
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think that depends on your idea of a God. You could have a faith based belief of God which could contradict logic.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course. I am not arguing against you marine. All I am saying is that faith and logic are not necessarily incompatible.
  
  On a similar note, god is not = to monotheistic god and not = to christ the lord
  
  faith is not = theistic god
  
  logic is not = to scientific explanation
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I understand this. I think they are incompatible when unbalanced or used in the wrong order. I think they can be contradicting to each other in some cases.
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  Lita C. Malicdemposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  First, let me define "faith" as unquestioning belief in God or in religious tenets, that does not require proof or evidence.
  
  Whereas, "logic" means the science of correct reasoning; science which describes relationships among prepositions in terms of implication, contradiction, conversion, etc.,hence we can say, there is such a thing as faulty logic.
  
  So I must say, that our beliefs are based more on logic. I don't believe that anyone can claim that he has unquestioning belief in God. He will always use his logic for his inductions and deductions in life.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Faith isn't what your saying it is, at least not only what your saying it is. the dictionary says: Faith is the confident belief or trust in the truth or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing not resting on logical proof or material evidence it is not unquestioning
  Logic: from the Greek λογικός (logikos) [1] is the study of reasoning.[2] Logic is used in most intellectual activity, but is studied primarily in the disciplines of philosophy, mathematics, and computer science. Logic examines general forms which arguments may take, which forms are valid, and which are fallacies. It is one type of critical thinking.
  
  I believe that our logic leads us to our Faith. Logic takes us to where the proof ends, and Faith takes it from there. When new proof is discovered, then we have to re-examine where our faith led us and correct our course as necessary.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I partly agree. I agree that everyone uses logic, just that some use faulty logic. I think faith is dangerous in the fact that it is what someone wants to believe and some will deny logic for what they want to believe. As far as belief in creation, I don't think the bible or religion is very logical. However, I do think belief of creation can be logical when it can't be ruled out.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think faith is required to perform any action.A child has faith he can ride a cycle , do a hand stand, an adult particular job etc etc.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you do not distinguish "faith" that you can ride a bicycle from "faith" that there is a god? Or "faith" that you are going to burn in hell for all eternity?
  
  The "fact" that it is possible to watch other people ride cycles and learn from this is exactly the same as the "hearsay" that some one like you tells me there is a god?
  
  All the same to you.
  
  How about an invisible cycle that no one has ever seen?
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I know there is god, I became god its my real identity, my faith is knowing and not guessing.
  I like this description of faith-
  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith
  
  Confidence or trust in a person or thing.
  
  You can watch me meditate but will not understand what meditation is until you do it, many things in life like god need to be experienced.
  
  I am sure you are the only one who has seen this cycle you are talking about but many including myself have seen god.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So - do you not want to answer the question? Is faith in the invisible super being that only you can see the same as faith that you can ride a bike?
  
  And your dictionary definition (belief that is not based on proof) contradicts itself.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  After answering and putting the dictionary meaning you say I don't want to answer ?? very weird.
  
  After seeing why should I not have faith?
  
  Science is spending billions of dollars building particle accelerators trying to find this proof, the god particle because they believe or have faith it exists.
  You need to correct the scientific community as well and not just the believers in god.
  Proof is limited in science, but you will get stuck if scientific proof is all you are looking for as it is limited.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOL
  
  Your dictionary also defined it as "believing something with no proof."
  
  So you are contradicting your own definition to justify your beliefs. OK - I understand.
  
  Now - show it to me.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But one definition is trust and confidence why are you ignoring that .?
  
  Dont need to justify anything to you Mark, you are not that important.
  
  Science is limited and so is scientific proof. Why are scientists trying to find the god particle, they must be really foolish.
  
  You believing or not believing doesn't change the truth.
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  B52 Bomberposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Did you write that you were god? Please explain.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure.
  Mans essence or source is the Light or god.Its is the basic fabric of this uiverse. Enlightement is becoming this Light or god, you are no more the body but become this light which has no beginning and no end.
  
  "The kingdom of god is within" "I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus
  
  "Be still and know you are god" hindu mystics
  
  Seven breaths of one pointed concentration will get one enlightened " Patanjali the founder of yoga.
  
  Please read my poem religions its a hub, have explained the eseence and similarities of religions.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Let's say faith is more like a prerequisite to an action.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Correct it is.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Friendlywordposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It's quite obvious that people who do not use faith and logic to form their belief go off the deep end one way or the other. That's why there are so many Atheists and Religious Fanatics in this World.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol This was excellent! I agree. I think both sides that go off the deep end go off with faith and emotions tied to their belief where they will refuse logic that their belief could be incorrect.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think I have to agree with both of you here... Well Said (Both of You)
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  Google Galposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Um, I bellieve in logic
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Experience.
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  H.C Porterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My personal beliefs are based on faith having to do with hope, and comfort that there is a reason that traumatic life experiences happen for a reason and that when we lose someone they are not truly lost, just changed.
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  MikeNVposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking." -- Not my quote.
  
  Faith is the point at which people arrive at an explanation that satisfies their desire to stop thinking or they become overwhelmed. -- my quote.
  
  If you believe in something it neither validates nor denies it's truth.
  
  People must have faith in order to cope.
  
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  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hebrews 11
  
  By Faith We Understand
  
  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen......By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Faith = blind belief without logic.
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  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not really, you see logically I know faith works as I have seen and experienced the evidence of my faith being justified and rewarded, so for me (and any believer who has faith) faith does work, it does produce the things we have faith will happen, because faith pleases God, indeed the bible states that without faith, we cannot please God.
  
  Now for a logical person, who cannot see, touch or feel faith, and therefore does not believe in faith, then faith cannot work.
  
  If you don't believe in faith, then faith is useless to you, you are stuck with logic that actually produced nothing except self confirmation that anything you cannot see, touch or feel does not exist.
  
  Having faith justified has proven God is faithful to do what He says He will do, that produces TRUST in God, and when you place your trust in God, God accepts the responsibility to care for you.
  
  No Faith=No Trust=No Hope
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not necessarily some see the intelligence and aliveness in this universe and some do not.They will have different meanings or different viewpoints.
  For me faith is confidence and trust, very logical for me but someone else may not see it that way.
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  Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This argument is moot.
  
  You're very essence is based on your faith in yourself. Without it, you wouldn't be able to live life. You must have faith in yourself and in the knowledge you possess and objective in it's meaning, to form a logical statement or to form any belief.
  
  Thank you for playing. Much appreciative.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree without faith nothing can be performed in life, like Sandra has nicely said it is a prerequisite to any action.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Are you serious? I think you have too much faith in yourself without logic. If I didn't have faith in myself, I wouldn't have balls to write my ideas when some are unwritten and the majority disagrees with me. Try again enlightened one. If you would have used logic, you would have read previously where I said I have faith. Logic requires you to read previous post's before making your faith based assumptive comments.
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  TMinutposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Way too long to read right now but my answer is "Experience".
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  seyiariposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  belief shopuld be by faith because by faith because faith itself is not a philosophical fact neither is it a psychological fact. It is a spiritual force. It is a living force drawn from a living word to produce a living proof
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  For a knower of god faith is absolute confidence and trust, a fact.Absolutely no doubt god exists and this universe is fully alive and intelligent an extension of ones self.The cosmos communicates with you and I can see this very clearly, every day of my life.
  I agree that is is yet not a scientific fact but philosophers have known god since ages.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think anything that is absolute is content in learning. Why would a growing mind and belief that learns new things on a daily basis need to be absolute? I think absolutes are limiting. I don't think philosophers have known anything. I think they have philosophied they know something while the true ones will admit they know nothing.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am talking of another dimension .Here one needs to constantly change, keep learning as experience is the perfect teacher,this doesnt stop for anyone religious or non religious.
  
  When you no longer exist and only god exists then there is no time so the question of learning new things which takes time doesnt come in.
  
  I keep learning every day of my life even from here when some one shares knowledge I didnt have.My activity is centred around god, writing a book like this is very difficult and takes lot of energy and action.
  
  Masterpieces are the the result of years of pain staking work where all that matters is the work for the poet or philosopher. Most humans will not be able to do this.Dont take books lightly.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think I agree with that. I don't think theres any logical way to explain that faith is driven by a outside force. The only way to explain that faith is of a spiritual force is by faith. I think the logical explaination of faith is that faith is what the person wants to believe while logic and self-awareness is the balance of the faith.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think the logical explaination of faith is that faith is what the person wants to believe while logic and self-awareness is the balance of the faith.
  
  Very nice sentence.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that's awesome. i agree. why is faith and logic perceived as two different entities that can not mix?
  
  "very nice sentence" mohitmisra, was that you patting yourself on the back? you gotta have flexible shoulders for that! lol
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I was appreaciating marineallways words.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  haha i know. i was just poking fun
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  oops ok carry on
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for explaining your belief in the other post. I think they do mix and everyone uses both to an extent. I think the difference in people is the balance and order in which they use them.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Extremely Well Said.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Mikel.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Totally wrong and faith-based, illogical statement though.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Explain please. I put it together with logic and faith. Or was that to Mikel? My fault if it was.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No - it was to you.
  
  I have yet to see you use logic to back up a faith based belief (and I am not talking about the brakes on your car).
  
  Many seem to - such as Mikel here. "If you cannot disprove it - that doesn't mean it does not exist."
  
  But this is not logic in the true sense of the word and there is no logical reasoning involved.
  
  It is more fair to say that many use semantics to attempt to justify a faith based belief. Plus - you are still not differentiating between faith based beliefs that can be tested and proven and those that cannot. For me - this is a massive difference and only serves to cause arguments and fights and I think is where the believers are inadvertently causing conflicts.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are right that many use semantics to run circles and protect their belief. You know from reading that I have been through this in forum conversations as well as you have.
  
  I don't understand when you say I am still not differentiating between faith based belief and logical belief. I will also give you that logic is a more testable belief than faith, however I think both still use faith in the belief. If you wanted to prove evolution, you would put logic and faith that evolution is correct and start searching for fossils to prove the belief. If there was no faith that the idea was correct, I don't think logical steps to prove the idea would have ever been taken.
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  Friendlywordposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  There's no way I can really get into this conversation of Deep Thinkers. You have a great logical mind. But in some of your post you show a great amount of passion and anger and joy. Why do we have emotions, if all we really need is logic? I think emotions feed the soul. Logic feeds the mind. I respect your opinion on what I'm trying to say here. I dont understand how you can not have Faith and Logic.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your Welcome, sounds JUST like 'seasoning' to me...the meaning of life.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. If we all had our own seasoning and didn't care about the flavors of others, would we ever sacrifice to meet at a common ground? I don't think we would.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  "No sacrifice is needed."
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think there is sacrifice needed. If we didn't have sacrifice to meet at a common ground and believe, we would have complete anarchy and chaos. It has been proven before that a society is chaotic without authority. Sacrifice to meet at common beliefs make up that authority. Granted, most of those authorties lie and cheat.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  marinealways24 wrote: IF
  ...I agree. If we all had our own seasoning and didn't care about the flavors of others, would we ever sacrifice to meet at a common ground? I don't think we would.
  THEN no sacrifice is needed.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  IF there is a society of individuals that may have varied intrests, agenda, goals, beliefs, values... THEN this society will need laws that govern over the common interests of all concerned. (which will require some sacrifices of the individual on behalf of the whole).
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand. What do you mean no sacrifice is needed?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok in a society where there is plenty for everyone to have everything they desire (an unlimited supply) there is no need for sacrifice. God being an unlimited being, means that we can all be different and still be a part of God (because of the unlimitedness of God).
  In the 'real' world, (where there is not an unlimited supply)we have to 'share' what there is. which means that if you want 2 and I want 2 but there are only 3 we each can only have 1 and 1/2. Both individuals 'sacrifice' 1/2 of what we desired.
  concepts that are unlimited: acceptance, love, hate, rejection, logic, beliefs, flavors, seasons, math...
  concepts that are finite: land (on planet earth), food supplies, jobs, ...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In society, I think there is huge need for sacrifice. A lot of people in society think they are better than others because of education title, salary, or job title. If they would sacrifice their ego to meet at a common ground all life is equal, no matter the materialistic knowledge or wealth, I think things would be brighter. I agree that we can all have our different beliefs of faith and still work together if balanced with a logical belief of working together. I hope that made sense in reference to your comment. lol It's still early for me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it made sense, and good morning You are now entering the realm of politics, another subject rife with dispairaging views, systems and beliefs. Many wars have been fought over the 'communal' view of mankind (communism) over socialism, the view that all be treated equally, and capitolism, the view that the strong/smart survive better than the weaker/dumber. Nature I think more closly follows capitolism.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But once again my view is that a mix, or flavoring, from a little bit of all is best.
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  hmmm...well as human beings, i think that we are blessed with the ability to be self-aware, self-actualizing creatures. We are blessed with choice, so to speak. Our "nature" isn't necessarily domination over others - something as crude as capitalism. Our nature lies in the choice to dominate or reciprocate.
  
  In nature, only the strong survive - capitalism. However, in humanity, i think we have the choice and capacity to make each other stronger, thus facilitating survival as choice. i think, We have been given endless possibility in our spiritual and mental faculties, and we have been given a great and unending universe in which to use those faculties. So much room to grow, but we have the choice to deny it. It is a funny and confusing thing - being a man.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  well said.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Good Morning to you too. That is an excellent thought about nature following capitalism. I think you are right with capitalism being only the strong survive. I also think we have the ability to rise above a capitalism mentality of the materialistic being more than the materalistic to realize the separatism it causes. I think capitalism drives competition of people to compete, be better than the other, and acheive their individual goals. I think it is very important and free and can also be destructive without regulation and equality of humanity above a materialistic vision.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  I agree with this last, the problem is finding the balance, the middle ground, between allowing growth through competition and fairness/stability through regulations (stopping monopolies, stopping powerful companies from destroying the small business competitors, etc...) Capitolism unchecked is another form of despotism, where once the 'strong' gets to a certain level, there would no longer be anyone that could compete with them. "absolute power corrupts absolutely"
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I also think absolute power corrupts absolutely. To go along with this, I also think it's logical to say absolute belief corrupts absolutely. Absolute belief = absolute power = absolute corruption.
  
  I agree with you, the hard part is the balance. I think the balance is possibly found though logic and then faith being that logic could find middle ground in separating from individual faith. I'm not sure if that makes sense.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for the great conversation.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for the great conversation S .
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Home Girlposted 15 years ago
if I knew, guys, what you are talking about, I could post some reply...
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean? Logic and faith is what constructs every belief including yours. lol
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kessposted 15 years ago
God does not nor intend for the mind of a man to operate outside of his natural mode of operation. Meaning something must be logical to the mind for that one to expect a desired outcome.

So to the faithful his faith should be completely logical otherwise he would be outside of his M. O.

But the issue is this, There are many religion, christian primarily who do not know exactly what faith is.
It is used to describe what I call "strong hope".

The faith God expect men to have is not the one the dictionary defined.

Now you know why their faith sometimes may seems completely illogical.

But then again one's faith should not be subjected to the scrutiny of others,

But the works of that one's faith should be the evidence of it.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Kess

"God does not nor intend for the mind of a man to operate outside of his natural mode of operation. Meaning something must be logical to the mind for that one to expect a desired outcome."

Which definition of God are you referring to? There are many different beliefs of God. I think you are wrong, I think faith overpowers logical thought. With faith, sometimes logic is contradicted.

"But then again one's faith should not be subjected to the scrutiny of others,"

Why not? If their faith was correct, this should make their faith more powerful and stronger in their belief.
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  kessposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just as it is logical to sit on a strong chair,
  just the same way it is logical to expect your faith in God to perform an act. For you know by your "knowledge of the truth" (faith) of God it will happen.
  
  Can you justifx or negate my faith in God Marine? Neither.
  
  But you can certainly observe and confirm or deny the existence of my so called faith by my works.
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
"A pioneer of the mind reaches beyond what he logically sees, to the apparent illogical and makes it known."

Excellent Jewels.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Kess

"Can you justifx or negate my faith in God Marine? Neither."

Yes, I can prove whether it's based on logic or faith.
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  kessposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You will prove it to yourself only but not to me.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can prove if it's logical or faith based.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How, you cannot even distinguish between the two yet.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How can't I?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you tell me oh logical one.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think I have decent self-awareness of distinguishing between the two. Do you not think I know people get tired and irritated of my repetitive questions?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just answer the question marine.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Logic is thought and belief separated from emotions in the search of evidence. Faith is emotional thought and belief without need for evidence.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No Marine. Let me give you a dictionary definition and maybe it will help you sort it out.
  
  Logic:
  
  Main Entry: log·ic
  Pronunciation: \ˈlä-jik\
  Function: noun
  Etymology: Middle English logik, from Anglo-French, from Latin logica, from Greek logikē, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason — more at legend
  Date: 12th century
  
  1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : syntactics (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : relevance, propriety c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
  2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason
  
  — lo·gi·cian \lō-ˈji-shən\ noun
  
  Faith:
  
  Main Entry: 1faith
  Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\
  Function: noun
  Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\
  Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide
  Date: 13th century
  
  1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
  2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
  3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs
  synonyms see belief
  
  — on faith : without question
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol alright, so where was I wrong in my definitions?
  
  They were theoretical definitions, not pulled from the dictionary.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are so dumb sometimes Marine. You don't want to learn, you just want to be right.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am being serious. Please tell me how my definitions are wrong. Because they differ from the dictionary? This doesn't mean they contradict the dictionary. Do you think the dictionary is God and elite? I thought it was developed by humans.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am really glad you posted these definitions. I think both lack in saying that faith is with emotion and logic is separated from emotion. I think emotion either disrupts or contradicts logical thought if it is used before logical thought. I wonder why the perfect dictionary forgot to mention these when they are possibly the "most" important details of each.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The definitions lack saying that because that is not what these words mean. Like the religionists - you are choosing to create your own definitions to suit. Faith is not with emotion, and logic is not without and these are not the most important details.
  
  Except according to you.
  
  But - like the religionists - no matter how many times you say it - this will not make it come true. Or True.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are getting over excited with yourself. We know what being proud leads to, don't we? We also know what arrogance leads to, don't we?
  
  Emotions are separated from logic all of the time because it interrupts logical thought.
  
  There is a cop who's family members have been murdered, the capt. takes him off of the case. Why did the captain take him off of the case?
  
  You have emotions and faith tied into evolution. You get irritated and emotional when someone criticizes evolution because it challenges your faith. If you were logical, you could control yourself when people disagree with your belief.
  
  You're not right all the time.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't... keep asking until the answers make sense.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. I appreciate that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years ago
No one , but a few, understand my beliefs..so I do not bother talking about them much
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What are your beliefs?
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sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago
Well lets see I'll give the wheel a spin and the wheel in the sky keeps turn'in I don't know what I'll believe tomarrow! Well it's slowing and slowing and slowing and it says, I'm hindu! Damn I hate being hindu that means no brisket!
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  Denno66posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Try Chicken.
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Niteriterposted 15 years ago
I have absolute faith that marine will create a rockin' forum thread.
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Niteriterposted 15 years ago
My faith in marine's ability to elicit a pridictable response is based on the logical postulation that an action resulting repeatedly in the same reaction is likely to elicit the same or a similar reaction again.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But isn't a "similar" reaction also definable as a "different" re-action or outcome?
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I smell bait!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have no idea what you are talking about.
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are a slippery dude!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In seriousness, one reason I have a good prediction of what someones answer will be is because I try to debate every possible answer before I ask the question. I also try to make the answers logically sound where they can only be wrong through faith. It doesn't always work out as planned, i'm not perfect. One of the reasons my questions are repetitive is because I like to find the individual thoughts through all of the trained thoughts.
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In my personal observations, people seem to resort to faith after they've given up hope of getting the answer they want from logic.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with that. Speaking for myself, I think I like having logic along with faith. I think both are powerful and equally important. I just think they get confused too often in the search of absolutes. I think faith is much stronger than logic for the fact that faith is emotions also being what the person "wants" to believe. I think logic and self-awareness are what balances the belief.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree, I think logic will only get you so far... Then you have to decide using things like past experiences, intuition, probabilty and then in the abscense of proof...Faith, in yourself and your common sense and (for me) Faith in something greater than myself.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with using logic and faith in that order. I think what confuses belief and thought is when faith is used before logic. I also choose to have faith in a greater purpose other than myself, but it's not absolute for me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is very well stated. My Compliments.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks. I'm not sure if i'm content on that. It's just theory of finding a balanced truth. I think self-awareness is also very important in finding individual truth.
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Niteriterposted 15 years ago
Faced with the prospect of completing a 500-mile highway drive in 10 hours, the logical person might say, "I will plan my trip so that I will be able to drive at a minimum speed of 50 mph with no stops and I will assume I will have no unforseen stoppages." A person of faith might say, "I will pray that I will reach my destination in the allotted time safely and in a rested state. I believe firmly that my prayer will be answered." Who's to say which is the correct approach?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Which is better... Vanilla or Chocolate Ice cream?
  
  So which Ice Cream flavor is the "correct" one?
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly. We'd all just enjoy the ice cream.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well yes and no, because someone will want double dutch pistaccio, my point is there isn't a right and wrong way to believe(or not believe), there isn't a right and a wrong way to pray, there are religious "flavors" the one you are most comfortable with is the "right" one for you. It won't be the right one for everybody, as God (if God exists) intended.
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Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years ago
Sorry my last post was confusing...
Let me clarify...

Niterider said, "In my personal observations, people seem to resort to faith after they've given up hope of getting the answer they want from logic."

To this my response was, "I disagree, I think logic will only get you so far... Then you have to decide using things like past experiences, intuition, probabilty and then in the abscense of proof...Faith, in yourself and your common sense and (for me) Faith in something greater than myself.
I don't think it is a "giving up hope" situation."

Marine said,"I agree with that. Speaking for myself, I think I like having logic along with faith. I think both are powerful and equally important. I just think they get confused too often in the search of absolutes. I think faith is much stronger than logic for the fact that faith is emotions also being what the person "wants" to believe. I think logic and self-awareness are what balances the belief. "
Which for the most part I agree with.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ty for clarifying along with the great conversation. It usually only gets around a page and a half before logic is thrown out the window and insults fly on the threads I open.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sure thing, the heated debates are caused by profound belief. The inability to prove your point means that something you hold very dear, something that is very precious to you is "at risk" and you cannot defend it, you cannot protect it,(because there is no proof). But these deeply held convictions are part of the very base makeup of Personal Identity, so any critism or disbelief is taken as an attack at the core of the Human Being, and not as a Logical debate about inconsequential facts.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree again. This is why I choose not to believe absolutes to separate emotions and always keep my mind open to new ideas in discussions.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The only absolute I find hard to deny is.. That we are ALL different, and that is the only way, we are ALL the same. The differences may be minute, even microscopic, but we are all just a little bit differently "flavored".
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, we are all born individual and unique and remain different in some way, however some try so hard to be like others.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marines.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Former Marine
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thought once you're a Marine you're always a Marine! Now I would argue being like everybody else is kind of the name of the game!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Accepting that everyone is different, but still valid, to me is the name of the game. We aren't all the same nor are we suppose to be all the same.
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  sneakorocksolidposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just fishing and using the military uniformity as bait!
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You trying to bait me is like the fish trying to bait the fisher. Just messing with you.
  
  You are right, Semper Fi. I still have a lot of support for the military and country, just not the politicians and government. I don't follow many orders anymore unless they are from the wife. Even then, I have selective hearing. lol
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lyricsingrayposted 15 years ago
What if your belief is not based on faith yet carries logical elements? I too would then belong, agree?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol I didn't know we had a club going, but you belong!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Faith is believing in something without proof, it is NOT believing when there IS proof to the contrary.
  In other words when you "think" something is true but you can't prove it, whatever that something is, then that is Faith in the something you think is true.
  For example: as you get ready to cross the street, you see a car coming and they appear to be slowing down for you... You decide to go ahead and cross the street because you "think"(believe) that they will not hit you. That is Faith, because you don't really know they won't hit you, but your past experiences and logic led you to conclude that it is probably ok to cross the street.
  Lyrics, you belong, we all belong... now to what do we belong?
  We are all Human, we are all mammals, we ALL think differently(even when we agree).
  I believe we are all puzzle pieces. We complete a picture of something. All the pieces are different, but they ALL belong. We just have to find out where.
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Niteriterposted 15 years ago
You'd belong anywhere, lyrics.
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  lyricsingrayposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're a very naughty girl! I hear Billy Joel: "Now don't go changin'..."
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Niteriterposted 15 years ago
I think we're brothers here, Mike. Just say yes!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Niteriterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You're my pal for life.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol...
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you really think that why don't you read my hub and give me an honest opinion of it? (not trying to spam)
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awareposted 15 years ago
neither its hope
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Mikel, I would like your idea on this.

I think there could be an overall purpose to life which is to find common ground and unite. I think we were united in the beginning of life and began to separate and individualize. I think to unite, all individuals would have to sacrifice a part of their individual belief to uphold the agreed group belief. I think a logical prediction would be that it isn't likely that every individual will ever sacrifice their personal belief to follow the group belief. I think this is only possible through faith. I also think this is why religion could have first been developed. I think individuals are destructive to the group belief because some refuse to sacrifice personal belief for the group.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you need to read my hub. And ask all the questions that will raise in you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Will do.
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starme77posted 15 years ago
I only believe in logic and thats it
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your not alone in the beliefs of atheism. I however Believe...
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  starme77posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  logic is not athiest its just , simply ... logic...never said I was athiest
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My apologies, I did assume that a belief in 'only' logic and that's it, meant no belief in anything else(anything else being a belief in God).
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  starme77posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  wrong assumtion -
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Again, My Apologies.
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  starme77posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  awww no need to apologize so much , no big deal
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
Empirical evidence. Logic based.
Even totally able to change belief overnight. Show me any evidence and I am interested in anything. Even religion believe it or not.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hello Earnest!
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Mikel!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ok... you asked for it...
  
  If there is a lowest form of life... then there has to be a highest form of life...
  
  correct or not?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have been wondering about this statement since I first saw you post it.
  I have some difficulty with the absolute, and a bit of trouble with deciding what is meant by "form"
  
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  ok a rock is an inanimate object, containing no signs of life, therefore it is NOT a life form.
  the things we (humanity) classify as "living" in a general sense are acceptable paramaters to me for the use of the concept "lifeform". Does that do it for you?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So single cell lifeforms are in?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  absolutely
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And their simple form puts them at the extreme low end?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  possibly, my point is this: if they and we are not the same, then one or the other is superior. If one of two life forms is lowest, then the remaining is "highest".
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I see. It seems the likenesses between living things is tightly related. A banana is very little different in makeup to Albert Einstein.
  I like the current star dust theories of Kraus.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  stop changing the subject and answer the question...lol
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hang on, I am trying to understand this.
  OK lets cut to the conclusion you seem to be seeking.
  What I am saying is I see no evidence for any divine entity just in your conclusion that there must be a higher life form than us.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree this arguement will not prove that what "they" say God is, is God. All I'm saying is this reinforces a belief that "something" greater than us is logically possible, and probable. The definition of God is "the Supreme form of life" the top of the ladder, that entity that has no life forms greater than itself...
  {and with no proof to the contrary we have to accept that Earnest may be correct in the assumption(also unfounded) that Humanity may be that supreme being... (I'm kidding)}
  We have no way of knowing what that supreme being is made of, what it looks like, what it's composition is, what it's lifespan is...and so on and so on... But we have a pretty good logical argument that it exists.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am inclined to think that Carl Jung had it right with his theory of religiosity being hardwired. The star dust theory of evolution works very well, and is proving up quite well. As far as I can see, every thing around me is a miracle in one way or another. The miracle of chance is the one we ignore most. Blow something up in less than a millisecond that was smaller than a pea in to something the size of our universe and you create a lot of possibilities.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  And again your changing the subject...
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I thought we were having an enlightened discussion, I am not looking to be controlled in the conversation, or are we working an agenda up here?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know me better than that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  But the fact that it scares you, makes me think I'm right.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well if that were true, we would have somewhere to go, and I would be quite excited about that. I have little difficulty with change. That is how I broke with religion.
  Maybe I am a bit unusual for you to read, being an Australian. We do use the language a bit differently sometimes.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So I'm not correct?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No you are not correct. I added to my prev post.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I stated: If there is a lowest form of life... then there has to be a highest form of life... and you stated that I am incorrect...
  How am I incorrect?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I said you were incorrect about me being afraid!
  I will happily consider your hypothesis.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So I am correct?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I believe you are right about that.... to a point! i do not therefore conclude that there is a god from that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  God is a name humanity has placed on the concept of whatever the supreme life-form is. For me saying that a supreme life form exists, does NOT say that "God" is what "they" say God is, and that for me excludes all the baggage "they" attach to the concept.(3000 plus years worth of baggage.)
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I got that a while back in the forums, you are no zealot that is for sure. Look Mikel, I must say that I held a similar belief for many years, and it is not a bad position in my view. That does not mean I believe I am right now either, I do have a different angle though.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  which is?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  evolution.
  I believe pretty much the same as Professor Kraus I discovered.
  
  Stardust. We are made of stardust. Professor Lawrence Kraus has laid out a very good scientific case for the big bang, and it's output. A fascinating interview was done by the BBC in London. He is s** hot at explaining in lay terms. The video goes for 27 minutes as I recall.
  I heard it live then downloaded it.
  I have other views about sentient life to do with cell death and other scientific breakthroughs about how we live and die, love and kill etc.
  I have a background in religion and psychology. An open book!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Evolution and stardust neither one rule out God, The big bang is just another name for "that instant" when there was something that was not nothing, (for me "that instant" is when the reality of God started).
  So your other views about sentient life are? Cell death?
  How we live and die is really about the mechanics of our "cocoon"(human bodies) which is fascinating, but un related to thoughts of the existence of God, at least to me...
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not to me they are very related. When you look at the pain and suffering side of life, the only way most look at it is that it is inevitable. Not so. We do not need to be apologists for our own dirty DNA.
  pain is not needed for us to have joy. Suffering is not the only way we know when we are not suffering. It all ties in to a different view of a life without any god for me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I agree the dogma of past centuries, the belief that in order to do good or be good humanity must suffer or sacrifice for God(on behalf of God)is incorrect, that's in my hub, which you haven't read I guess... Dirty DNA?
  So you disagree with the theory of opposites then? that in order for there to be a hot there has to exist also a cold?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well cold is single sided cold is only a lack of heat.
  We are already doing major repairs on eyes using our own body cells, we will soon be injecting cells to cure all illnesses, we have discovered the course of death, and next we will start upscaling intellect by allowing proper seratonin and dopamine levels in the brain curing much mental illness like bi-polar and others. Human death in twenty years will become nothing more nor less than a social decision which will delay what we can already achieve. That is what the evidence I have supports.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think human lifespans can be extended, the problem will be if we haven't gotten off the planet, we will run out of resources(food) and space.
  You keep tying in medical research about our better understanding of the human body to proof of a non-existing God?... and I don't follow your logic...
  as far as the abscence of heat...
  if we put in numbers for the concepts of hot,cold and tepid.
  hot being 10 tepid being 5 and cold being 0. without hot there can only be tepid. without cold there can only be tepid.(so with out pain there can't be pleasure)
  If 10 does not existthen 9 would become hot and tepid would become 4.5 eventually there would only be tepid, because hot and cold would be the same thing...see my point? (I explained better in my hub)...
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I just remembered the hot cold thing from 5th grade science.
  We can sustain life here for a very long time if we decide to.
  
  The medical science points to a very sloppy creator. No god involved in that side of it. The spirit and soul thing, again brain related, medically, psychologically and scientifically discernible.
  As for the first event. I do not see a need for a beginning or an end.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OMG, I think I finally understand you. Your just like "them", just from the opposite side...Everytime something points in a way that you don't like you chaulk it up as irrevolent, or rubbish. when it is something you said that is shown to be false or not very well thought out, you dismiss it as a misunderstanding...
  Yes, how convenient you "forgot" that whole unimportant 5th grade science thing...
  Medical science DOES NOT point to a "sloppy" creater (and just that statement seems to imply your belief in "A" creator)...
  And your final statement, without a begining, you CANNOT have a now (fifth grade science lesson again...)
  Either I'm really missing something, or your just as confused as the people you make fun of all the time...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See? This is the trouble with getting your information pumped into your head by a god instead of reading what people write.
  
  Sloppy creator? I will explain why there is no "implication" of a belief in a creator here:
  
  If - as you insist - there is a creator - which there is not - he/she/it did a pretty sloppy job. See? No implications of a belief at all. More a case of poking fun at how ridiculous the idea is and pointing out that the argument in favor of a creator based on the "perfection" of the design is useless. You know - because it is such a lousy design. I mean? Seriously - teeth? Last 50 years if you are lucky and seeing as we used to live to be 900 years old (I learned that recently from some one else who gets their information pumped directly into their head) this is a very poor design.
  
  Why does there need to have been a beginning for there to be a now? Surely time is a perception-based phenomena that will vanish with us?
  
  Just remember this:
  
  100% total lack of proof does not mean the pink unicorn does not exist. But it is a pretty good indication.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  he/she/it <<<<<<God? Creater??? PROOF THAT THERE IS NO PROOF IS NOT PROOF THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST... it just means we don't know, and have to accept that the other side MAY be right.
  There has to have been a begining or now is the begining, it is the nature of physics. without out one you cannot have 2 and without 1 and 2 you cannot have 3...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  NO PROOF is a pretty good indication though. Realistically?
  
  And let's face it - the moment you start defining it - it becomes possible to disprove it.
  
  How about some more 5th grade maths for you:
  
  Creator exists - 50% chance
  Creator does not exist - 50% chance
  
  Infinite number of possible he/she/it/creators/gods/star goats/giant turtles - you MAY be right.
  
  So - you have a one in 50%/infinity chance of being right.
  
  I have a 50/50 chance of being right.
  
  In fact - the chances of me being right are infinitely more probable that you being right.
  
  And who says now is not the beginning? Just because there is NO PROOF of this.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  and my base reasoning for the existence of a supreme being (that may or may not be a pink unicorn) is: If there is a lowest form of life... then there has to be a highest form of life...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it is fair to call this "reasoning." More "jumping to a conclusion."
  
  But - even if your "reasoning" is correct, there are all sorts of possibilities that do not bode well for us. We could just be an experiment that will be shut down next week.
  
  Like the dinosaurs.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not by any means saying I'm predicting the future. As far as something boding well for the future or not, what ever you meant by that...
  what you are refering to as "jumping to a conclusion" (sour grapes?), seems pretty simple and straight forward to me. As your cohort said, fifth grade level science. If there is a lowest there has to be a highest.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What is the lowest form of life?
  
  And why does there have to be a grade of lowest to highest?
  
  This is called "jumping to a conclusion." There is absolutely no reasoning involved and I disagree.
  
  Sorry you did not understand my meaning when I say "does not bode well for us." What I meant was - we are just as likely to be an experiment that will be canceled any time now. Just like the dinosaurs.
  
  Or we may be being tested to see if we are worthy and this business of jumping to the conclusion that there is a god means we will fail and we don't get the prize.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The lowest form of life is, that life-form that is the opposite of the highest. (perhaps a pink unicorn).
  
  Why does there have to be... I'll do you one better, is there? (to answer your is there what question... is there a lowest form of life, or are ALL forms of life the same/equal? If they are all the same/equal then WE are God.
  
  I understand what "jumping to a conclusion" the concept signifies, they covered that in 5th grade as well...
  
  your doom and gloom predictions to me are irrevelent. (...an experiment... being tested... some prize...)
  Thank You for Playing.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Glad you now understand what "jumping to a conclusion," means. My pleasure.
  
  I was not making predictions either. Do you actually read anything anyone writes or just jump straight to a conclusion every time?
  
  It must save a lot of time initially, I suppose. But the ongoing inconvenience of being unable to communicate in a meaningful fashion must be a problem further down the line.
  
  ciao
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You for Playing.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It Was A Game? I Did Not Know That. Makes Perfect Sense Now. You Were Not Trying To Communicate After All.
  
  Bye y'all.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank You again, for Playing.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No need to thank me. It appears I did not need to be here.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Just the same I like to be polite, so again, Thank You for Playing.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well - in that case - My Pleasure. I think we did well don't you? We cleared up the business of lousy design not implying a belief in a creator; we dealt with "jumping to conclusions" not being the same as "reasoning;" and we agree that I am infinitely more likely to be right than you are.
  
  But - just for fun - seeing as you are now saying that there IS a creator, rather than just saying NO PROOF does not mean there is not a "higher life form."
  
  How did you jump to this conclusion?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, just for fun, since you're such a caring and affectionate person. That makes me feel so welcomed and well liked. That obviously has a vast store of knowledge, though humility and good manners keep you from bragging about it. Especially since your charm and amiable personality just draws me in, how could I resist...
  
  Oh, sorry, what was it again, that you wanted me to teach you about this time?
  Thanks for Playing
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Teach? Quite right - I have learned some new things. I was pretty sure a belief in god made people incapable of rational thought, but I appreciate the way you validated that for me.
  
  I especially like the "interpretations" you apply to seemingly obvious statements that make reasonable discussion all but impossible.
  
  And the way you use words - giving them new and interesting meanings? Very clever. It may make for poor communication, but it is fun to watch. So - Thanks for the "lessons."
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  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  A duel of intellectual Giants...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Aww Man - There I was all ready to not like you any more and you go and say something nice about me.
  
  Merry Christmas to you also.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The wise understand this dimension is one of suffering, or hell.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Earnest, I don't think we would be able to comprehend pleasure if we couldn't comprehend it's opposite which is suffering. I also don't know if we could ever realize or find the beauty in life if we never comprehended death.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I would think more at the top.
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  Friendlywordposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The problem is humans trying to define the highest form of life in human terms. You cant define God, give him a name, tell people what he said! How could you know if a higher life form has a sex? Maybe the entire universe is a space around one spark in a higher life forms brain. I dont know, you cant know. You can only have faith and hope that HE is even aware of us...I think!
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  wesleyacarterposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  that's awesome
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kmackey32posted 15 years ago
Hi Earnest, long time no see.
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Kmackey! It has been a while.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
I need to go, sorry. I would have liked to continue this.

I recommend this website re: logic.

http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/graphics/main.html
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  OK BC I will check it out.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cya earnest. Just like to note, you are an extremely pleasant hubber, I enjoy your comments.
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owner_2posted 15 years ago
I just believe in logic.I wish i could have faith.It makes life easier.
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bojanglesk8posted 15 years ago
Both.
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earnestshubposted 15 years ago
I do not relate to what was inferred of my reply Mikel, and have filed you under intellectual pygmy or mental dwarf, I am not sure which.
Learn to read and listen to what is being said, and you owe me an apology!
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Definately Mental Dwarf, intell...is just to big a word for me.
  Take Care, have fun...
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tantrumposted 15 years ago
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
mothitmisra finally admits he is god. Well praise Yahweh!!

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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  So god exists, after all ! and posts in a forum !
  Weird !!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Why is it weird?
  Because you are unable to comrehend yourself?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You have no idea who you are. I do
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  5 stars smilies !
  for WEIRDNESS
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Meditate gain some knowldge and you will stop laughing at your ignorance.
  
  A person ranked 2 in religious books is weird? what and absurd statement to make especially on a religious forum.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks god
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome but try it out talking is cheap and easy doing is difficult.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks god
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Welcome son
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ignorance is Bliss. You should know about that being so Blissful yourself !
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Sad sense of homour, expected from you.
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not sadder than your sad book ranking !
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well you certainly dont have the intelligence to write and get ranked over my book you and this whole world knows this fact
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  
  5 stars smilies in
  
  FOOLISH PRIDE
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Plain simple truth
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Plain simple truth
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes ! your foolish pride is a simple truth ! you said it !!
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  just truth you need to digest. Can you write something intelligent we have been here before and its boring
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If I wrote a book that did well, I would be pretty proud of myself.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you wrote a book that did that well, would you need to constantly promote it when it was already selling off the shelves?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I would take arrogance to the next level.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Its to show look I have credentials in this topic of god and spirituality.I am not talking rubbish,why are people abusing me after showing them my credentials?
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As you know Mohit, I had this discussion with you a long time ago. I decided that some of it may be cultural differences.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and we made peace a long time back and now have intelligent exchange of views but some just keep abusing which does get annoying.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Marinealways has stopped and now I enjoy debating with him hopefully his compadres learn from him.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Wisdom and knowledge is not determined by a popularity contest.
  
  All the same, you glorify your success beyond its actuality.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lets just debate intelligently or is that impossible for you to do?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Intelligent debate requires at least two forms of intelligence. I am not sure you fit the bill champ.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Ranked 2 till date in religion and spiritual books and I don't fit the bill on a religious forum?????
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I rest my case.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank god finally .
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  In summary
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Still nothing intelligent just gibberish.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No kidding.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you very much Sandra.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Finally ?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  We all knew it
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know nothing.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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itcollposted 15 years ago
mine is mainly based on faith.
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago

I second that!
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prettydarkhorseposted 15 years ago
my belief is based on faith alone and I will die believing in my faith
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  earnestshubposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you mean to say your mind is completely closed to new information?
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
we all know about your book rankings, why bring this up
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  If you know what do you find funny?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are god, you work it out
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Very good response BC.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  "I tell ye you are all gods" Jesus what sort of a Christian laughs at Jesus?
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
as hilarious as this is. I've got to go for now.

You made my day mohitmisra.

Tantrum, pleasure as always, I love you a million xx
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  tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I love you too !! xx
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Bovine Currencyposted 15 years ago
bye for now
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Lita, This is completely false.

"So I must say, that our beliefs are based more on logic. I don't believe that anyone can claim that he has unquestioning belief in God. He will always use his logic for his inductions and deductions in life"

You are saying that everyone thinks the same. I can't believe you think suicide bombers are using logic over faith. Logic says it would be stupid to blow yourself up along with innocent people. How about parents that have denied their children life saving medical treatment for faith and have let their children die? You think they are logical also?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Still believe the dictionary is absolute or is it flawed like everything else to make us think we know what we are talking about?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You know why there are so many definitions to any given word? Look for what's common.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean whats common? There are so many definitions for each word probably because they aren't absolute. If they were absolute, wouldn't they only have one definition per word?
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Don Wposted 15 years ago
Marine, you seem genuinly interested in this stuff which is fair enough, but redefining common terms will not help your discussions. What Bovine Currency said hit the nail on the head.

You seem like a man trying to invent a turning cirular device. You aren't willing to accept that's it's already been invented and it's called a wheel.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Invent a what? There is more than one definition of logic. There is more than one type of wheels. I'm not redefining anything, i'm pointing to what it left out. If you disagree, prove me wrong rather than picking a side to cheer for. I clearly stated my example of how emotions play into logic.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
I think it's clear faithful assumptions contradict logical thought.
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sandra rinckposted 15 years ago
Take the logic test.

A boy with no legs wants to ride a bike. Someone says to the boy, 'you cannot ride that bike, you have no legs."

The boy feels determined but discouraged.

Someone else comes along and says, "Yeah, you can ride that bike, just use your brain."

The boy invents something that he believes would work logically. He takes some rope and rigs the pedals so that the kid can operate the bike with his hands.

Using this scenario, which is logic and which is faith?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Why are you testing me? Did you make this test up?
  
  1st Logic, 2nd Faith, Happy?
  
  The boy used logic and faith to build the bike. The first example challenged his faith that he could never ride a bike and the second one gave him faith that it would be possible to someday ride a bike if he used his logical mind and had faith in his abilities.
  
  Did I pass your test?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Then you agree that you can do both? After all, it is you that keeps saying that you cannot be logical and have faith.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I think both are equally important if faith not being more important. I just think it is blind and unbalanced without logic.
  
  Quote me where I said you can't be logical and have faith. If I did say that somewhere, I was incorrect.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Okay! So if your logic is flawed then your faith is also flawed. If your faith is flawed then your logic is flawed.
  
  The parable goes:
  
  Works without faith is dead, faith without works is dead.
  
  In other words, if the boy just sat around praying that he could ride the bike, he would be praying until the day he died.
  or like I said before... faith is a prerequisite to an action.
  
  Without it, people do nothing. So the first part of the parable is saying 'doing nothing does nothing'. However, the term faith has somehow come to mean.
  
  If you don't have faith in Jesus then your dead. Or if you do a good work but don't believe in Jesus then it doesn't count for anything blah, blah blah.
  
  Now going back to what you said:
  
  Would you also agree that it is more like...
  
  Faith is emotional thought and beliefs without knowing the outcome?
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  aguasilverposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So by your measure one can have faith and be logical as well.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes! Or logic and faith. I think the order in which they are used could have a big impact of being logical or illogical.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This only works if you redefine the words to suit yourself - as you have now done.
  
  Using logic after the event to support a faith based belief makes it illogical.
  
  But - this seems to be what all the believers do as they cannot survive by faith alone.
  
  They keep telling me that my faith that I can ride a bike etc etc is exactly the same as having faith that you are going to live for ever - and just as logical.
  
  Like you marine - they resort to semantics. Which is illogical and begs the question why you need to do this?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Do you see intelligence at work in this universe?
  An intelligence not man made.
  Is it logical or illogical to do so?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No I do not see intelligence at work in the universe.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I find what you see as logical, illogical.Many scientists see this intelligence including Albert Einstein so he is illogical as well for you.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is because you do not understand what the term "logical" means and already have an answer that you are now trying to justify.
  
  Semantics.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  .Many scientists see this intelligence including Albert Einstein so he is illogical as well for you.
  
  Or rather his belief is illogical
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
  
  Rubbish. Why do you think misquoting a dead scientist will persuade me of anything?
  
  That is illogical. Sorry you cannot understand and are so desperate to persuade me that what you connected to is a god with an intelligence.
  
  All that tells me is you could not adequately identify what you happened upon by accident.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Quotes by Albert Einstein
  
  http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/einstein/
  
  1-My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind.
  
  2-Every one who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe-a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble.
  
  3-The scientists’ religious feeling takes the form of a rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.
  
  I don't lie
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No - but you read what you want to read to justify your mistaken perceptions.
  
  I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.
  
  The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.
  
  I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
  
  It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.
  
  Think you are going to persuade me with mis quoted passages from a dead scientist?
  
  Illogical.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  One moment you say you cannot see a higher intelligence at work in this universe and then you say you do believe in god and to top it of you are an atheist.
  An atheist does not believe in god Mark Not Spinozas or anyone's concept of god.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe in God Mohit. These were quotes from Einstein. As is this one:
  
  It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes but you said you believe in Spinozas impersonal god.
  
  God is in the minutest of things and the largest, all is god so he is involved in everything.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  No - Einstein said he believed in Spinoza's impersonal god who has 100% absolutely no impact or interaction with any one ever and is 100% totally invisible and absolutely hidden except by extrapolation by people unprepared to accept that there is no god.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He belived in a superior intelligence, Eisnstein wasnt enlightened I am and I am telling you god is in everything ,personal as well. Spinoza was wrong.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are not understanding here Mohit.
  
  "Personal" in this sense means "with a personality," separate from us. A separate personality. A Person. A Personal God.
  
  Spinoza was bang on and I agree with both him and Einstein.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes he isnt separte from us that is true,god is our very essnce.
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  So you do believe in a superior intelligence like Spinoza and Einstein ?
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  Will Apseposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Anthropomorphic? Though we could use an anthropologist on Hubpages.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  GEEZ, now I have to spend 10 minutes looking up all the BIG words....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Crap! I never should have quoted Einstein....
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Einstein? Who is that? Should I know him?
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  B52 Bomberposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Oh my!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  He was just another religious prophet spreading the word of non-existent god in the mid 2oth century. Just another nutcase really. Liked to use big words though. Best ignored.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Chapter and Verse? and chapter and verse of anything he published, and the chapter and versus of all references to his chapter and verses, and the verifications of those as well please.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Nah - you just have to have faith. Everything will get spoken into your head then. If you believe that is. And are worthy.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol, nicely stated.
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  GeneralHowitzerposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Lol on this Mark hehehe this is directed against Atheism read it carefully and understand it thoroughly... Einstein was a Theist he dont want to humiliate his colleagues, and he always shun away from evolution and Creation "CRAP"...
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  LOLOLOLOL
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Amazing how just 3 quotes of this man can make me smile.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  It just takes one for me.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As always, that means your better than me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not in the slightest - no. I do like the way you make up new meanings for things that people say though. Most entertaining.
  
  Sadly destined to end in conflict - but I am sure you already know that.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean "already?" Mohit and I have been talking for 18 months.
  
  "Not understanding?" Is that name calling and hair pulling? Gosh - you do like to make up your own meanings for words don't you? Bet that doesn't cause you any issues in the real world?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not understanding, isn't name calling. Telling someone else that they don't understand because they disagree with you, is name calling.
  'Hair pulling' trying to emphisize the semantical interpretation of simple words like "already" to create a posture of superiority, while degrading the person your "talking" to.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not understanding when they do not agree with me? Ah - you mean it is not possible that he didn't understand? OK
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't say that it was not POSSIBLE, for him to not understand.
  I said that according to you, Mark Knowles, that if he disagrees with Mark Knowles he just obviously doesn't understand.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  See? Once again - this is the trouble with not bothering to read anything any one else writes. Bound to cause confusion.
  
  I have patiently explained that using selective quotes from a dead scientist is not going to persuade me of anything.
  
  He does not seem to understand that.
  
  This is not a case of disagreeing. Trust me - It is not going to persuade me of anything. Not a disagreement. See?
  
  Now - try reading what is written in future and maybe we won't keep running into this.
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Hey guys lets cut this out and just stick with the topic. please. Mark is my friend and I like your way of thinking Mikel G Roberts more than Marks.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  This pretty much sums it up right here.
  
  Now, tell me your pride and arrogance doesn't limit you from learning new things and logically explain how it doesn't. Even when you are wrong on something, does your pride and arrogance let you admit you are wrong?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What a joke.
  
  MK good on you.
  
  The go-to seems to be that intelligent people should refrain from comment, correct? Joke, seriously, what a damn joke.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Cheer harder. He might buy you lunch.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are confused. I give praise where praise is due. You are so stubborn marine and you low blow MK because you think something of him. I admire Mark for what he has achieved, I can admit that and there is no shame in it. I do not however blow smoke up anyones backside as I can see you are suggesting. Perhaps it is you whom owns the bizarre obsession, it seems obvious to me.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't give any low blows to those that don't give them to others. Logically explain where I am confused. I don't think you understand logic as well as you think you do or maybe you would use it.
  
  Logically explain where I am blowing smoke or is that more faith based assumptions?
  
  State the obvious, I have already said I am obsessed with studying belief. I guess you missed that part like you do pretty much everything else you don't want to see.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You are unteachable.
  
  1) I never argued that you blew smoke.
  2) I understand logic with far greater precision than you will ever know.
  3) "logically explain where I am confused" A: on all matters of logic
  4) You have no idea what I see
  5) Your assumptions are driven by emotion and your arguments vacant of any reason whatsoever
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1. You suggested and alluded that I was blowing smoke.
  2. Faithful assumption with no logical evidence. Are you religious?
  3. Another faithful assumption with no logical explanation.
  4. You are finally right on one thing and you claim to know what I see in number "2". Genius.
  5. A little hypocritical. I logically explain or think about everything I write before I put faith into it. You clearly do not. Keep studying.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  1) I cleared myself of blowing smoke, your assumption. I said you had a bizarre obsession with MK.
  
  2) In English?
  
  ---> You asked me to logically explain where you were blowing smoke. I made no such claim
  
  re: 3) I am stating the obvious. There is no need for further explanation. The argument is implicit.
  
  4) Incorrect. I make no assumption in #2. I know that you will never know and likewise the logic in this #4, you can never know what I see.
  
  5) A joke, yes?
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well thought out. You should give yourself a logic award or something. Why do you refuse to answer my question or to admit you are wrong that emotions are separated from logic? Does it hurt your feelings that you are wrong? How logical is that? Is this your idea of intelligent conversation to keep writing your silly number postings that go in circular arguments?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I have made my point loud and clear many times before. You keep rabbiting on about the topic and you do not seem interested in any other opinions outside your own deluded reality.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  P.S. I never argued that emotions were not separated from logic. Try step down from your fantasy for a few moments, look back through this thread. I am not your enemy. My only gripe with you is the incorrect definition of logic.
  
  What question am I refusing to answer??
  
  Hurt my feelings to be wrong? It does happen marine, I am wrong at times. Not often and definetly not in any case with you on this topic. Intelligence? You have no chance in threating my intelligence. My own lack here is the ability to literally shove an idea into your mind. I have, over the course of more than this week alone, attempted to teach you in a subtle manner, what logic is, now you attempt to ridicule me? Are you offended by me? Why? What is it I have done? If you were not so self obsessed you would not make these careless assumptions.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not true. I listen to everyones idea whether they think I do or not. And often, I usually end up even connecting with some on agreements that I have never agreed with. Things aren't always what you seem or you may see only what you want to seem. Is that logical professor?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My pride and arrogance does not limit me from learning new things. I was not wrong in this case. When I am wrong - I am happy to admit so and learn from the experience.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What are you right on?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  You did not even read it before wading in huh? How illogical of you.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I am talking about with me, not him.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol How is it not limiting to your mind to say that? You don't think you have intelligence? You are in the universe aren't you?
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  Mikel G Robertsposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, but this is a BIG topic. Long, many arguments, much pulling hair and name calling involved. maybe a new post?
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
aquasilver

"Not really, you see logically I know faith works as I have seen and experienced the evidence of my faith being justified and rewarded, so for me (and any believer who has faith) faith does work, it does produce the things we have faith will happen, because faith pleases God, indeed the bible states that without faith, we cannot please God."

Faith is blind without logic. I think he would be more pleased if you actually had and used an open mind. That would require a balance of logic. As you clearly state, you refuse logic that challenges what you want to believe "faith".

"Now for a logical person, who cannot see, touch or feel faith, and therefore does not believe in faith, then faith cannot work."

lol, Don't try to preach about logic when you clearly state you refuse logic for faith. Stick to what you know. You are making a blind assumption "faith based" that I have no faith. You are wrong, I am a huge believer of faith, just not blind faith. There is no logic in your faithful assumptions.

"Having faith justified has proven God is faithful to do what He says He will do, that produces TRUST in God, and when you place your trust in God, God accepts the responsibility to care for you"

I have faith in a balanced belief, not a one sided one that is blind. I'm sorry you can't comprehend someone can have faith in creation simply because they don't agree with your belief book. Get over it. Your belief isn't the only belief nor is it absolute. That may be absolute.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Sandra,

"Okay! So if your logic is flawed then your faith is also flawed."

Sandra, everyones logic and faith are flawed. Everyone has contradicted themselves before and been hypocritical before. Where did I say I was an exception?

"In other words, if the boy just sat around praying that he could ride the bike, he would be praying until the day he died.
or like I said before... faith is a prerequisite to an action."

I think you may be wrong on this one. Say he had faith god would build the bike for him with no logical action, faith didn't get him very far.

"Would you also agree that it is more like...

Faith is emotional thought and beliefs without knowing the outcome?

Yes, I think both apply. I think an outcome can be more predictable when logic and faith is used together and balanced.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Was just coming back to edit my post.
  
  If your logic is flawed then your faith is flawed, if your faith is flawed then your logic is also flawed.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Where are all these spots my logic and faith are flawed? I think your logic is flawed when you say new ideas don't exist.
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about? Point it out or don't post things that I never said. Thanks.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Sorry. Do you still love me?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Well... he would still be praying until the day he died right? Which is why I say faith is a prereq. to an action.
  
  People who have faith in a god doesn't bother me because it cannot do anything to me, people who have faith that they are doing god's will... that scares me.
  
  People reason in different ways.
  
  You have faith that there is a Creator. I don't see any logic in the thought that a big guy with a white beard is hoovering in the Heavens and waved his magic wand, and padow! There was life.
  
  Sorry.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Why is it hard for some to believe that the dictionary isn't absolute and lacks information?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Who said it was absolute? I said ask yourself why there are so many definitions to any one word.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I aswered that, because I don't think it's absolute. I think it has flaws like anything else. Why does it have so many definitions to every word?
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Of course I still love you. They aren't flaws. If it never changed then something would be wrong.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I agree. Well said. If it was absolute, it possibly would have never been changed and updated. I think this can be related to some beliefs. Thanks, I still love you 2.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  two thousand years has pased. If someone writes something in ebonics and in another 2000 years someone reads these things written in EBONICS someone will ask??? Why are there so many definitions of a word??? DUH. YOUR BASIC UNDERSTANDING IS IN MOST CASES CLOSER TO THE TRUTH THAN ANYTHING THAT YOU CAN LOGICALLY COME UP WITH.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  The logical truth is that we have the ability to use both logic and faith together. One without the other is blind.
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
Does it really matter what your faith is based upon as long as you have got it????
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  On an individual level, no. On a society level, yes. Your faith could have you commit an irrational act or crime if you don't use logic.
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awareposted 15 years ago
neither
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Here is a theory, maybe it is a conspiracy they didn't put "emotions" in the definitions of logic and faith. If the public knows how to separate emotions for logic, the religion or government can't keep them in fear and in control. It is also the basis of any lawyer in court proving or disproving his case. The lawyer uses evidence and logic, not a trial simply based on faith.
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  As long as I'm not in a court of law; I'm goina thank and do what I thank is the best that I know how to do.
  
  And if you think diffrently than I do I hope that that works good for you.
  Bless your litle heart.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  lol Um, Thanks? You don't have to be in a court of law to see how logic and faith relate to belief. How do you know I have a little heart?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  marine I am sure I have suggested this before but you seem to still lack an awareness of what logic is.
  
  I recommend this website
  
  http://www.sjsu.edu/depts/itl/
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Instead of making another faithful statement, explain where my logic is flawed. Many definitions of logic are still in theory. There is no absolute definition. Do you think logic uses emotions? Is that website absolute to you?
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
I could be wrong but that seems to be the way that YOU describe it.
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  How is that when I say faith can be equal if not more important than logic?
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  Jeramiposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Logic examines the breath out of life.
  What do ya do ??? cut a bird open lookin for life???
  Logic aint goina find it
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  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Your faith has you talking about carving up birds to prove me wrong. What did the birds do to you? I never said anything about killing tweety. Although, he does taste good!
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Jeramiposted 15 years ago
Grand pa told me that if I kill it I gotta eat it.
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Ghost32posted 15 years ago
Ummm...my belief is based on neither faith nor logic. It's based on experience.

When I was deeply into my spiritual search in my late twenties and came across a book that discussed the belief system (path/religion) to which I've since belonged, what the text said simply made sense to me. You know, if it agrees with you, it must be brilliant...and many of the thoughts I'd had were already in line with what the book had to say.

That was 37 years ago. I do believe logic applies in that nothing I've since learned seems illogical (to me at least), and my faith is considerable based on these several decades of personal results.

But in the beginning, the faith part was tentative until proven through hardcore experience.
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marinealways24posted 15 years ago
Just to clear this up because I think there are some that believe all their ideas must come from books someone else has written.

All ideas do not come from books!

All books come from ideas.
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DaniellaWoodposted 15 years ago
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, and I completely repect that. Here are mine:
[FAITH due to nurture] Going back a few generations, my Dad's side of the family have always been religious, attending church every week and so on. I've never been to church but have grown up believing in God, simply so that I have comfort in thinking God is going to make things better when times get rough.
[LOGIC due to nature] But as I grew up and became more and more interested in science, I studied the evidence and realised what I believed in wasn't exactly what we'd call logical - a man creating an entire universe in 7 days etc. - and so now I sway towards the big bang theory, although I still pray from time to time.
So in answer to your question, both play an equally important role in my life!
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Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago
I have not called anyone names unless you think that me observing that you do not seem to understand what you are reading - or did not read it, is name calling.

Allow me to explain again. I will try saying it several different ways and see if one of them gets through. Please read this:

Selectively quoting a dead scientist is not going to persuade me of anything. I am not interested in you selectively quoting Einstein - and I have not missed the point that he and now you are trying to make. I do not care that you are prepared to selectively view everything to back up your ridiculous beliefs. It is not going to persuade me of anything.

You can quote Einstein 'till the cows come home. Not going to persuade me of anything.

No matter how many times you selectively quote something Einstein was supposed to have said after being badgered by a religionist - you are not going to convince me of anything.

Do you understand now?
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GeneralHowitzerposted 15 years ago
ROFL on you too Mark... hehehe... BTW, I read your replies with that of Gardner's hehehe, and here is my resounding remark: "No Comments"...

Einstein was aware of a Universal God but never with a personal god... just to inform you...!
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