Can a person be considered logical if the persons religious belief isn't logical? If a person is logical in some things, but not logical in religious belief, are they still considered logical or illogical?
What do you consider logical in regards to religious belief?
This is the joy of confusion, madness, turmoil, chaos, insanity, illusions, and some of that crap that involves us trying to aspire in this thing we call life. Fun-fun...
Religion<-----------"Reality" Continuum Line-------------->Logic
Logic and religion is somewhat of an oxymoron, as logic tends to be related more to science; religion is more faith-based.
Really, is there such a thing as a logical person? Religious or not? I know you think you are logical, but if someone were to examine the way you live, would they find you logical?
Marine, you always give us interesting thoughts. Let me say that how come we can judge if a religion is illogical-most of the major religions of the world speak of nothing but morality.
Thanks Andro, It is my opinion that most religions are illogical by the fact that they operate by faith. Logical religion would only talking about the observable known, not the faith of the unknown. I think many that preach morality have damaged themselves by being hypocritical.
I imagine you consider yourself a pretty logical person.
I see a beautiful picture of a baby on your profile picture; I don't know if that's your child or not but if it is do you love it?
I only ask if you love your child because at present the mental health community considers the emotion of love to be "illogical." In fact in some quarters of the mental health community the emotion of love is considered a form of insanity.
I will only give you this one example but there are many more.
Can you see love marine? What does it look like? What color is it?How much does it weigh? What does love smell like? Hmmmm. This love thing is starting to sound pretty illogical to me. I imagine I should question its existence altogether.
How about thoughts in general. Have you ever seen a thought? I have never seen a thought but at present I do believe in them. What do thoughts look like? What color are they? How much do thoughts weigh? Hmmmmm...what does a thought smell like?.....You know now that I think about it..oooops..I mean now that I consider it...yeah that's better...this whole thought thing is starting to sound pretty illogical.
Hello terced, I agree with atoms, good questions and good points.
As for love being logical, this is an in between question. In logic, emotions are to be separated to find the logical solution. However, it is illogical for a dad to not love their son. That would be insane, however, a wife loving a husband that beats her everyday would also be illogical and insane. I think love is observable, you can see good acts of love everyday, you can also see acts of hate everyday depending on which you choose to observe.
I think thoughts are also observable in their extension. Afterall, every physical action and creation comes from thought. As for thoughts origin, Maybe all thoughts are logical until they lead to illogical actions. As for their origin, maybe from an energy or energies that I can't define.
It's interesting. Have you seen people act kindly with ulterior motives?
People can "act" like they love you. When they "act" like they love you are you "observing love?"...or some other emotion. Let's call it "selfishness"...again what does selfishness look like? Remember you just said "love" was observable. If someone is acting like they "love" you but are really manipulating you...are you observing love? are love and selfishness the same? Or do they just "look" the same?
What does the emotion "selfishness" look like?
Think about it before you answer.
There is a law of thermodynamics; I forget which number but basically it states that it takes energy to create energy. If it takes energy to create energy then where did the first energy come from?
I believe your logic is flawed and you have as much faith and "illogic" as you call it as any religious person. Let me explain.
You have all the logical reasons to concede that it is possible that God exists. Pshysics, Thermodynamics, Chemistry. Many scientific disciplines point to a very specific design and possible designer. Yet and still logical persons dismiss those things out of hand and don't even consider their plausibility. To draw such a conclusion is utterly unscientific. In this illogical conclusion you are exactly like the religious people you claim are illogical. We in the so-called religious community call this "FAITH"
lol What a load of garbage. How many faithful judgemental assumptions did you make right here? You have no clue of logic or else you would have evidence behind all of your false assumptions, you clearly have none.
Sorry, love is observable, love is our conscious observation of something we strongly care about or believe. If we couldn't observe what we loved, why would we love it?
Selfishness is the observation of someone that puts themselves before others.
Ignorant question, I don't know where the first energy came from, where did I say or allude that I did?
I believe your faith is flawed for making so many ignorant assumptions with no basis to make your silly false judgements.
You are clearly a faithful believer lacking logic.
Does it take energy to make energy marine? I asked you this question because religious people generally believe that God exist. The study of thermodynamics has concluded that in order for energy to exist it takes energy to make energy. I'd say this is pretty straight forward. It is perfectly logical and plausible from this one scientific example to conclude that God may very well be the first energy that caused all energy to come into being.
Is it logical to conclude God doesn't exist or is it more scientific to at least concede the possiblity?
If you could paint selfishness or love what would they look like?
I'm not asking you about what is observable based on action.
I'm asking you what these emotions actually look like. Do they have color? Do they have weight? Can you smell these emotions Marine? Are there any other scientific measurements that can be made regarding these emotions? As I said, weight, color, size?
You are dismissing things that any logical mind would seek to qualify and quantify.
How come your logical mind won't ponder what the weight of a thought might be?
How come your logical mind won't ponder what a thought actually looks like?
Yes we can observe the manifestation of the given emotions but I didn't ask you to point out the characteristics of those emotions.
I asked you very simple straight forward and logical questions and you have simply refused to answer. You are dismissive and evasive.
Please apart from emotionalism. In the purest form of scientific logic you can muster; reply to each point I have made.
You said, "Please apart from emotion." Ha-ha! Okay, if that's true, he should stand aside from all you have recently said. LOL!
Terced, religious believe a God exist because it gives them emotional comfort that there is a higher consciousness looking out for them. I think there is possibility of a higher consciousness or a designer of consciousness, but I don't jump to blind assumptions through faith to say I know for sure when I don't. You don't have a clue what created the first energy, God is an assumption.
Have you never observed selfishness or love? Why do you need me to paint a picture? The emotions are ideas and thoughts, Thoughts are from the synapse/exchange of chemicals. A thought looks like what you perceive it looking like.
What is your point? That you can ask questions that even yourself can't answer and at the sametime defend your religious belief of God?
Hey there, Mr. Marine! It seems that you are holding your own, just the same. Fun, isn't it? What have you killed lately besides insects? I hope you're at least sending some of these premature thoughts from others, to a state of demise! Ha-ha!
It is fun a lot of times, but sometimes it gets boring. lol
I have probably killed some faith, but thats about it. Speaking of insects, I had a bee stalking me today while I was smoking a cigg. I was trying to figure out how conscious he was of me, it seemed he was clearly watching and stalking me, but I don't know why. I think it's a conspiracy. lol
Damn, you smoke too! I also smoke, and here we are, both being logical???
Anyway, last year and for the first time, I had an entire colony of yellow jackets attack my ass! [I mowed over their haven] You talk about consciousness, I talk about a white man running for his life! Yikes! Those bastards add up, after ya get stung about 30-35 times! Oouch! LOL!
Marine based on your replies to the things I've written it is obvious that you are not the logical person you purport to be.
Suffice to say that we disagree.
Good day sir.
Have you ever heard of Aristotle and Plato Greek philosophers famous for their logic?
They based their belief s on the the immortality of the soul.
Your question is strange.
You are strange, you believe you are logical, yet believe you are a prophet. Is this logic to you?
Define Aristotle and Plato's religious belief.
I now who I am .
Immortality of the soul is their belief, an after life which you find ridiculous.
Try to understand many acknowledged great minds including scientists believed in a higher intelligence .
You are not an acknowledged great mind.You will need to prove with with your work. Talking is easy doing is not.
Getting ranked over Bibles ,Qurans and Bhagwat Gitas is a joke for you.
No, you don't "know" who you are. You "think" you are a prophet because of rankings of an ebook of little to no competition.
I asked to define their religious belief, not give 1 idea of why you have faith both were religious. What religion did they follow?
Its the other way around you think wrongly.
Immortality of the soul is what their belief was.
Try to give credit where its due because you dont understand these great minds doent change the truth about them.Try to understand why these philosophers are called great minds and not you.They obnviously have knowlege which you lack.
Like I said perfom some feat ,let your work speak.
How can they be great minds without high ebook rankings? Only ebook rankings = great prophet minds, you have proved this.
Their philosophy was supreme something you are unable to understand right now so by mocking them you think you are being logical.
I think of them as great minds, have no problem in giving credit where it is due.
Couldnt even write one piece yet you insist on your logic ha.
I am mocking you, not them, but write their religious beliefs and I will mock them as well if they are illogical. Logic evolves, just because someone developed something doesn't mean they followed it. Nice to see you believe you have a great and chosen prophet mind and put yourself in a class with philosophers when you have no philosophy but promoting your silly ebook.
i think its time for you marine to write yours! i think you can!
Thanks Cecilia, I think you could just as well. I am working on it, but I have a lot more books to read.
the important thing is you have a premise.
If the name fits (marinealways), coming from a strict military lifestyle, yet still openly engaging the wraparound twins, I would in a heartbeat buy the book, just to read it.
How many times do I repeat they belived in the immortality of the soul.This is the beilef of all religions.
You need to meditate in order to understand these Greek philosophers works or mine.
Try ceciliabeltran suggestion of writing .
Hi . Mohitmisra ..
I always thought that we are all born with a sence of imortality. As we get older we tend to forget this.
That is the biggest SHAME on us that we have to bare.
Ego is a big problem and this developes with time.
One nees to become childlike and inquistive agin in order to understand truth, open minded.
This worlds and universe is just too mysterious and magical.
mohitmisra hows it goin
There is nothing that will confuse the masses as much as too many details to consider, that has nothing to do with the issues.
A little child can usualy see between the yada yada yadas and hear that little bit that is important.
Unless there are too many pages of yada yadas.
Is it logical, to human understanding, to put oxygen and hydrogen together though they are both highly flammable. Yet, when together they put out the fire. Not very logical to the finite mind, yet highly logical to the infinite mind of unlimited understanding.
I've read that several times now, goldenpath, splendid analogy.
No religion is logical - the only logical thing is that they all agree there is a god of some kind - with the exception of the athiest of course and they really make no sense whats so ever
who's to judge what is logical? What may seem to be an irrational belief to some is not to others. If you go by statistics the majority of people on the earth believe in a God or have a religious conviction. So are the masses being illogical for that? and if so, who decides this? certainly not anyone who cannot disprove the faith or the reason(s), motives or reasoning behind the one who believes.
Of course one can be logical and religious, though being logical isn't a personality description, but a method used in reasoning, and being religious can be a personality trait. One has nothing to do with the other.
sensation v reason is still consciousness aka logic.
this is the yin yang of the human condition.
the masculine reason; the feminine sensation.
both equal and need the other.
All human thought systems, under any title, are deemed logical.
Perhaps the expression or reaction to one or another practice (perception) might be termed illogical. But in truth both sides are the same.
True Philosophy will see both sides equally and define them within the argument, but philo will never neglect either or choose one over the other. Sensation & reason are necessary to all human thought. The greater or lesser mind is only one individual reacting to the relationship more than another.
It depends on the kind of religion. The Catholic Church's doctrine about the trinity which is 3-in-1 and /or 1-in-3 is not logical.
The true religion teaches that Christ being the head is the savior of his body, not everybody. This is logical.
I have a question. Are there any polite, well mannered, athiests?
I am logical although some may see my beliefs as illogical, lololo
lol This is what I am getting at, what makes a person considered logical? Does everything they believe have to be logical or just most things?
Yes. The philosophy of religious humanism is based on logic, with no belief in the supernatural. It recognizes that religious practice can be beneficial to society and the individual, but rejects things such as god figures and faith.
The religion I am part of is based on being logical. Gnostic Christianity. It's beautiful.
But, Christianity in and of itself isn't logical. How can you get logic from it?
True Justice demands payment. Christianity not only teachs this principle, it's based on it. And that principle is logical.
Justice is an illusion purported by the Church.
Even the concept eye for an eye is outdated and uncivilized. But, hey let's throw away true morality because you want justice.
Sure, no problem. Killing someone is killing someone. It doesn't matter why you want to or how you feel it is necessary to justify your position.
In a civilized society, true morality wins out and not the subjective "hoax" of religion. It's the damn problem the world is in the condition it is in today. Direct cause.
So, please save your words for the fools who will buy it. I'm not. It may have some basic principles, - primarily DO AS I SAY, not as I do. To be precise.
The supposed god concept that speaks, shows contradiction. Sure, at the time of inception it might have been needed, but now it is killing, literally killing society/humanity.
But, thank you for your input.
It's hard to explain. It's logical because it feels right. And because I'm from the south, we've always been taught that there's an all-loving God but he will punish you and send you to hell if you do something like smoke or curse (i smoke like a freight train and curse like a sailor). But with Gnostic Christianity, the all-loving God is still there, but he doesn't punish because he is all-loving. There is no Hell. Hell is here on Earth and the Earthly experiences we have while we are here. We go through these hardships by choice, to perfect our soul.
Nice to meet you.
Mine is based on logic plus expanding the mind through self knowledge.
Faith is a suspension of logic. There is nothing logical about believing in a god. Believers make a leap of faith, and in doing so let go of logic as a means of understanding the world. This doesn't mean that religious people are fundamentally illogical. Our capacity for fragmenting the self into workable personas means it is possible, for example, to be an incredibly logical worker, who, when at home, is a stunningly irrational Dad. The same is true of a believer who is, at the same time, a doctor etc. etc. A person - religious or not - can be both logical and illogical.
I think logic also requires faith, just not as much faith to believe something true. If a person thinks they are logical, they have to have faith that they know what logic is along with the meaning of logic. What another views as logical I also think requires faith. If you only seen me write a few comments that were all backed with logical explanation, I think it would still require faith for you to believe I am a logical person. The faith would be thinking I am logical from just a few comment where on another thread I could comment mainly from faith. Would I still be logical or would i have to be logical at all times on every comment?
Hi Marine! I enjoy your dithering (that's my word today) about logic and illusion - I am actually thinking along the same lines although religion hardly enters into it, since I feel religion strays so completely from logic that it is really all delusion. When I recall some of the ritualized behavior in churches I have visited, I see that actual hallucination is encouraged and inspired visions that come out of church life are usually created in a deluded way through the use of rich fabrics, color and chanting. It can be gorgeous when you just let loose and enjoy the show! but you would be deluded to think that any of that has anything to do with some enlightened leader who has all the answers!
Hello There Mega. I am meaning the same thing when I write either faith or religion because religion is based on faith rather than logic. So when I write faith, I am also writing religion. I agree, a church or religion will say anything to create the most appeal of passion and faith of believers, it will even go as far as saying Gods son died for their sins. If a religion will go this far in lying to believers, theres no limit to what else they will lie about. I think some faith/imagination is great for a person as long as it's balanced with logic. I agree, people should use their own observation to look for answers rather than relying on claimed prophets
I know a lot of people who are quite logical in their thinking and who consider themselves religious.
None of them participate in this forum.
Is there any such thing as a logical religious person?
Sorry I'm late, somone wanted to speak to a logical religious person? Can I help you?
Can a person that has faith in an afterlife be considered logical when logically they don't know if theres an afterlife? Is there an absolute logical person or does logic also require faith?
I think that in the scientific method, people acquire knowledge through trial and error, or through simple experience. Wtih that in mind the act of faith is something that should be experimented upon since historically there have been people who have claimed to see and feel the effects of such proclaimed belifes as miracles, healings, etc.
Sometimes you have to go by your gut feelings, for instance, I wonder who the first person was that said, "I think I'm gonna eat whatever comes out of that chicken's butt." fortunately for him it was an egg.
I just wanted to stop by and say hi marine! haven't chatted with you in a long time and just wanted to say hey...okay back to your discussion
Hello there, good to see you Crazd, it has been a while. Hope you are doing good. .
Yep doing pretty good...found out I have a cyst behind my uteris but eh it's all good...how have you been?
I have been good thanks, still working in the heat yet to find my million dollar idea that will put me into retirement.
Bounty hunting usually pays well... There is more money involved, once you advance from killing insects. Ha-ha!
aa well hopefully u find that million dollar idae
Yes, i can say pink invisible unicorn exist and preach my delusion but when it comes to being real people don't stick with their religious opinion as they bend it to match respective logic. A person can be realistic on almost every thing but ends up being delusional when it comes to religious belief.
in other words - why should you have to be logical in every comment you make when none of anything any church or organized religion has ever done has any logic whatsoever!
The problem with trying to use logic as the absolute rule of life is that Logic is a binary system. Right OR Wrong, Hot OR Cold, Black OR White, On OR Off... the problem with trying to make everything cut and dry is...What about Gray?
Life is sooo much more that Right OR Wrong, life is right AND wrong. Logic can only go so far. Once you have reached the limit of what is logically possible or plausible then you are forced to use other tools.
Art is very rarely logical and yet it exists, and is beautiful. A computer cannot understand beauty or art, because it is ONLY logical. Logical therefore is Less than all there is. Logic is limited and small. Logic is not the end all solution to all lifes problems or the answer to all life's questions. It cannot describe anything that is beyond logic, which is most of life...all the 'Gray' areas are beyond logic.
But the fact that logic is limited, does not mean that we should throw it away. It is what it is and when used in it's proper place it is a valuable tool. Faith, intuition and emotions are equally limited, they are just limited differently. They, when used correctly, are also a valuable tool. When you combine the tool of logic with the tool of intuition and reason and emotion, you get a better picture of reality and of the human condition.
Faith and Logic are both incomplete tools, but when used together they can take you further, and allow you to accomplish more, than where either one can take you on their own.
The secret is to use ALL the tools at your disposal, but not to use the wrong tool for the wrong job...A hammer makes a terrible saw, and a screwdriver makes a terrible nail...
If as you say, there is nothing except that which is logical, explain Art. Explain why we smile at a beautiful sunset... Explain why music exists, and why we find it so powerful...Explain why a person will sacrifice themselves for a stranger, or will risk their life to save a stranger...[i]Explain why people choose the illogical, that makes them feel vibrant and alive over the dull and predictable, but Logical choice.
What about 50/50 chance of your god existing?
Faith is not a tool for knowledge and understanding, it is the relinquishment of those characteristics when no other answers are readily available.
No, you don't. Reality will offer a picture of itself despite what your intuition and emotions tell you.
Faith and emotions makes for terrible understanding. Of course, your analogies are poor as they don't compare faith based reasoning.
I don't think logic is either limited or small. It was logic and reasoning that brought us out of caveman days and making religious sacrifices of our children. This was logic. Faith would have us still acting on impules as other wild animals.
Logic and reasoning is what separates our conscious abilities over other lifes abilities. Through logic/reasoning, we gained writing and language. We also find truth through logic and reasoning, if there was no logic, the majority/mob would always be right. Logic is debate and reasonable solutions. Faith is agreement or disagreement and war.
I never said faith and emotions weren't important. I think both are important and optimum when balanced.
I am aware that you value highly logic and what logic stands for. I must however disagree with what drives us to better ourselves. It is the emotions and the passions for living that push us to better ourselves. Logic would be to remain stagnant and safe in the caves for all eternity. Afterall they had everything they needed to survive, why go against logic and risk the unknown, that is not logical. If logic was the greater we would still be cavemen.
Sacrificing our children was not logical, but based on fear of the unknown. Which shows that logic is not the stronger of the involved forces.
I have to disagree again. It was passion and an emotional need to understand and explore that gave us these things. Logic holds us to a constant tried and true proceedure. Emotions, passion drives us to risk the unknown. The drive to create and procreate are emotional drives, with a sprinkling of logic thrown in.
Evidently not, logic has been around as long as emotions and it has not stopped any of the things you blame on faith and on God. Which logically points to the fact that logic is smaller and less than what you want it to be.
Minus the War part... I agree, but I would add logic into the mix, because it is logic that tempers the emotions that lead us to better things. A world with only logic is a boring adding machine kind of place, not the kind of place to be inspired by anything.
In response to that particular post about logic bringing us from cavemen days. Do you believe that what they were doing back then was believed to be logical to them? In my opinion, logic, reasoning and religion are all based on what you have been taught and/or how your persoanl perception of life. For example, it may be completely logical for someone to not eat pork because it is a religious belief of their's. It may not be logical to me, because that is not my particular belief, but to that person it is. You can not define what is logic for other people based on your own personal beliefs and standards. In essence, that would make you "God", whom I'm assuming you don't believe in? Faith is not just a religious based word. We have faith in people, objects, situations and all sorts of things. As for certain things in the bible like eye for an eye laws and things of sort, the bible talks about the old law and the new law. Lots of things that were law were changed with the arrival of Jesus Christ. Also,many things in the bible have been scientifically proven to have happened or be exteremely probable to happen (including the disasters in the book of Revelations). Jesus existed, rather you believe he was the Son of God or a prophet and He was executed. As for me personally, I am a Christian and since it is my belief that there is a heaven, I try to live my life so that once I die on this earth, that I will live there. If I'm wrong, then I haven't lost anything in the process have I? I'd rahter have Jesus and not need Him, than need Him and not have Him.
Logic is not a binary system. What books have you been reading?
Yes, it is definetly possible to be religiously logical. Why not? If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't take it off.
If logical means believing in a god that sends everyone who refuses to worship and obey to eternal damnation and hellfire, then yes, all religious folks are logical.
So are all the gods they worship and obey, all of them.
I'm under the impression that Faith is everywhere that a person thinks that they know something to be true.
To have faith in your own reasoning abilities "IS" having faith. If ya don't have faith, you will never think that you are sure of anything??
It is only logical to perceive life through your own perception without the influence of domineering beings and/or any other entity or organization that strips that individual freedom from you......
I would agree that this statement is true.
I would have to add that some people should not trust their own logic. Jeffrey Dommer, Charles Manson to name but two.
They followed their own logic for as long as it worked for them.
Oh, I thought people followed Manson; ya know, did his work for him.
Follow your own self; nobody said the Judicial Branch was God, either. Ha-ha!
"Dahmer" was religious. He said when he killed, it was because of reading about evolution. He's not very logical.
He turned religious again before he died because he was scared of death and needed faith to get him through prison. Your logic is lacking, what makes you think manson or dahmer were logical people?
I did not say that they were logical acording to my view of logic.
I believe that they thought they were logical in their understanding of their enviroment and life.
I've never meet anyone that did not have trust in their own logic.
How can a person be truly logical unless their logic is compared and seen as others see them? Our own logic isn't always the right and only logic.
Question would be... WHO should we compare out logic too?
Someone that thinks as we do ?
Or someone that thinks totally opposit?
I think we learn more about ourselves from someone that disagrees with us rather than a person that agrees simply because a person that disagrees will rarely lie about the truth. Friends or family will agree often just to make you feel good. If your wife asked if you think she looks fat and you thought yes, would you say yes or would you say no? This also applies to news media, there is a good reason why there is only one news channel that challenges Obama. The others don't like to admit they were wrong, so they try to hide his flaws. Which news channel do you find more truth from, one that agrees or disagrees with the president?
No, you just crossed illusions; not good. As an individual, this doesn't apply, but if you lead others as an organization, then what you say is right. But, we already know the latter has failed, ha-ha!
Are you assuming that people with mental illness are not capable of logic at any time?
I believe some of the people you have mentioned were, indeed, logical and very intelligent...in general.
Whatever influenced their awful actions, however, probably wasn't measured by an either/or consideration of logic, IMO.
I have never known or heard of a any human being acused of being logical in every area of their life.
If there were to be a person like that (Logical in all areas)they would not fit in, and be quickly taken out.
Einstein was known to have a wicked sense of humor. I believe he was responsible for some of the early sequences of the Keystone Cops. He was smart enough to realize that if you are dead set logical then you do nothing but make a cross for your back. You are right in this Jerami.
We can look at any person or subject with skepticisism and find flaws.
I think that people that use logic and reason over any issue still must have faith ... Faith that they have heard and seen all of the applicable evidence and faith that they processed the information correctly.
I don't think that life exists without a great deal of faith on everyones part.
Jerami, I am not being skeptical or finding fault with Einstein. Actually I love his sense of humor, what he did with early cinema comedy was fun and still holds up very well. This does not detract from Einstein the scientist. what it does is add to Einstein the man.
Religion engenders Faith
Faith - by definition Implies Knowledge +Belief
Knowledge = hard to challenge - when the fall back = belief
hence-> Religion and Logic part - at some point -> when the why -of -why becomes - philosophical for one party while - mumbo-jumbo for the other party
In short - religion and logic = an oxymoron - unless of course the Religion = devoid of Dogma and 'THOU SHALT not' style carvings -> I think Buddhism and Hinduism are the only religions - I know of - that allow for unfeterred questioning
No one is perfect therefore I would say that no one is 100 per cent logical. The Englishman who came up with the existence of gravity, Isaac Newton was an alchemist. Darwin saw himself as a Christian even if some of his ideas did upset some people's ideas when it comes to our world and Christianity.
Galileo had an illegitimate daughter who became a nun. She continued to write to him even when he was put under house arrest by the Pope. Despite being a Christian he still rocked the Christian would by his beliefs and by his scientific proof of some of said beliefs. In the middle Ages it had been agreed upon by the papacy that the stars and the planets and the moons were heavenly and therefore perfect. They were the heavenly bodies. Galileo and then other scientists came alone and through the telescope proved that our own moon was in fact not perfect at all. The craters that could be seen and studied offered up, in the minds of Medieval man, proof of imperfection. What's more Galileo and others believed that the heavenly bodies do not circle the earth as would seem only proper if man is the most important creature in creation and thus is at the center of creation and thus the universe.
Prayers were said aboard rocket on two of the Apollo missions.
All up I think all human beings have a mixture of both logic and the reverse. How they balance out is what counts. We are also people of our time.
All this picture lacked was a crazed agnostic standing behind them, pointing a gun, saying "I already know!" LOL!
it's all just lip service (sync or sink)
I'll be your Agnostic but maybe not your antagonist. People had known since the 1960s that the world's growing human population was not only doing great damage to the planet but that it was on the cards to do even greater harm.
The difference between the religious and the scientist over the end of the world being nigh is that the religious are often happy to sit on their hands and say dumb things like 'God's will' and 'I am going shooting up to heaven when it happens so I'm not worried'.
The Scientist and certainly this lone little Agnostic wants to jump up and down and shout: 'Get your hands out from under yourselves you idiots and let's DO something about these end of the world problems. YEESHHH!
I think religion defies logic. Religion is a mythic journey, it has another route in the human brain, more right brain sort of discussion going on.
You can be a logical person and a religious one at the same time, though.
But people who apply religious reasoning on scientific discussions about religion are fighting a tractor using pixie dust, its just not in the same league. That's why the word genre was invented.
A logical argument as well as a philosophical one that can certainly be applied to the existence of God..
Poppa Blues ... I love it
And who knows there may someday be a camera invented that can take Santa's picture.
Blues, in reference to the link.
You have to tell lies to children to get them to have emotions, creativity and an imagination? What would be the difference in telling a child about a gift giving alien and telling a child about Santa?
88Obscure Divineposted 7 minutes agoin reply to this
Just make sure you use your references properly! Ha-ha!
I believe it's not logical to be cooped up on such a nice spring day. Gaining the weight I did over the summer is also not very logical. Rolling around in the church aisles is not logical. Wearing underwear backwards because one thinks it's a trend is not logical. Picking your nose during a swimming relay is not logical. Eating spinach, kim chi and poi is not logical.
We all do things that are not logical to the next guy and vice versa. All that matters is that whatever we believe or do is logical to us. That's what's important. All else is the process of persuading others that what WE view IS logical over theirs. Also a part of the process of life is seeking answers one desires.
Hey GP, I hope all is well with you and yours, etc. Allow me to enter this thread by using your last post.
I will not suggest right now that anybody's logic is substandard, or anybody's religion or faith is either. What I will suggest is that the virtues we each choose to try and live by are the choices of every good (and/or every not-so good) individual who has the freedom to do so (and in the free world, we have these as constitutional rights). So, the MIND and the HEART (or the spirit and the flesh, or the intelligence and the emotion - whatever way one chooses to divide Human cognition, even as conscience and subconscious for example, but for my use I shall say heart and mind) each have their own graduations, treasures, or understanding.
If the MIND (and hence Logic) does not allow space for, or cannot graduate the understanding of matters of FAITH (religious tenets) due to secular arguments or whatnot, it simply will not diligently adhere to these particular ideas, even if allowing others the convenience to do so. The HEART must then treasure up the desire to hold true these ideas which the MIND does not understand.
A religious person can also be logical AND possess an abundance of faith, or in other words a religious person can very well support in his MIND a logic which he understands, AND in his HEART support and treasure a doctrine of faith upon which he does not lean onto his own understanding, but that of his "higher power".
Humans by their very nature are alternately logical and illogical. It's what makes us human and why we are not machines. We are right and left brain, math and art, science and emotion. Logic and faith can exist within the same person.
I agree; thank you for reminding us of this.
I think one of the challenges of life and it's progression of gaining understanding is for us all (consciously or not) to enjoy (or endure) emotions until we graduate them into a logical, unmysterious sphere of understanding (be it an acceptance of personal things we cannot change, a determination of things we strive to change [and control], and/or a wisdom to be aware of and know the difference).
I can relate this to the life of Christ (and Christianity) by seeing and agreeing that since Christ was a man of sorrows (figuratively, if you must) because when He descended below all things of human experience (and yet did not sin) He processed these emotional experiences (of heart) and then consciously kept and treasured that which was good (as He did experience joy, even in His life of sorrows), courageously and with great might changed that which was bad (by rebuking, exhorting,, and patiently teaching), and came to intimately understand the Human condition and the weakness of the flesh of man (even while He depended not upon the arm of man, but upon the strength of His Father, through His faith) COMPLETELY, even while He was tempted. He thus purged His own heart of all temptation, treasured up Godly virtues, and assigned every thought (no matter its source) its proper place, thereby gaining the infinite wisdom of the most high God (His Father) through faith, experience, prayer, love, and OBEDIENCE.
I submit that when we have decided to practice a wise and studied true FAITH that we CAN then each grieve only an appropriately brief time before we too are able to assign the correct place for each experience in life. Keep the things that are good, discard the things that are bad, endure the things that are necessary; work things through with logic (which is, in my opinion merely a faith that has been graduated into knowledge - provable to another or not) AND work things through with faith. Another point is to understand that the things of this world (of a terrestrial nature) are things that hold little value in the life to come. This is why Jesus gave up everything and told people to do the same in order to follow Him. Of course this does not mean to give up your necessities like a house and a car, etc, but rather assign a timely regime of giving up unnecessary items, practices, and habits. Remember not to fret about building yet a bigger storehouse when your mortality may end without notice. Personal freedom is enlarged by working (with Faith and Logic) to put things in order, discarding the encumberances of grief, grudges, and sorrow. Forgive others and strive to promote peace through a patient articulation of love, logic, strong reasons, hope, and faith. Remember that a student of your understanding (knowledge) first must have faith in the things he is exposed to before this faith that he acquires can be graduated into his own knowledge. Remember also that while we can plant, nourish, and tend, God is the only one that gives the increase (witness of truth, and then knowledge). And still we remain human - constantly being exposed to ideas of both logic and faith.
how so? logic is defined as plausible information APPLIED to a particular sensation, purpose or assumed quest within the dormant or active consciousness of human being.
Where any and all ritual practices emulate -be it systematic prayer, scientific exploration, social experimentation, policy, paranoia, etc.
Emotion is the self-justified acceptance and indulgence of said instances of logic for or against.
Many, if not all, of the people I personally know that claim to be religious (or Christian), do so out of fear. Fear, of what will happen if they don't believe. They just don't feel like taking a chance on it.
I am a Chrisitan and I completely agree that a part of my religious belief is based on fear of God and His wrath or the consequences. The Bible actually says that man should fear God and nothing else. Fear is not the basis of my belief, though, and I think that for most Christians it is based on the belief in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and dying for your sins. I do tell people about my religious beliefs often, especially if I feel they are in a sitatuion where it can help them. I don't think it should be forced on anyone, though, and the Bible says it shouldn't. Man has the power to choose, regardless of where you think you came from, (God or monkeys). Christianity has to be a personal choice or you're just faking it anyway. I don't think that I am perfect because I am a Christian and God does not require prefection. Most things involved in being a Christian are synonymous with being a good person overall and having good morals. I don't think religious fanatics who try and force religion upon others or religious extremist are the right way to go, but I also don't believe it is fair for people to bash Christians or other religious believers. Our country was founded on the principle of religious freedom and we need to respect that. God was good enough for our forefathers and He's good enough for me! In God We Trust!
Those good morals would also include the fact that your loving merciful god will toss me in a lake of fire for an eternity. As an obedient and loving follower, you must agree with this and look forward to my burning. Good morals?
I deeply respect you and your god looking forward to my burning.
I found this thread to be intriguing. I am perplexed as to how to respond. I believe in a higher power. Experiences in my life lead me to the conclusion that such a power exists. I have had two near death experiences. Medical science and practice revived me from those close calls. Both times, I experienced what some would call visions of what was to come and both time was given impressions that I had more to do here on the Earth at this time.
The first time I was not aware of anyone praying for me. My family were atheists. I was raised that religion was a crutch for weak minded individuals. And yet I experienced seeing the "light" and being told it was not my time.
The second time, I knew that many people were praying for me. That gave me great comfort and helped relieve my fears of dying. I was willing to accept either outcome.
I had come to know/believe that there was a unifying force in the universe that held all together in a space of unity. Logically it made no sense. I had to let go of my upbringing to acknowledge that this reality could exist.
I still think that some people who put religion above generosity of heart, kindness of speech, and compassionate service to humanity are illogical and fanatical. Does one type of person's illogical fanaticism mean that there is no higher power?
I found that responses on both sides of this thread came from places of emotion and not critical thinking.
One person can express an opinion, but one cannot speak for all.
I am a critical thinker and I believe that a higher power, I choose to call God exists. I consider my self a follower of Christianity who tries to live Christ's idealism of loving neighbor as self.
Perhaps if we were all able to allow for freedom of thought, emotion and spiritual insight this would be a mute question.
Yes, Muhammad is the most normal, logical, peaceful and rational person in whose character all truthfu Messengers Prophets naturally merge as aslo all revealed truthful scriptures merge in the Word reveald on him i.e, Quran.
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