Lets talk about religion !!!

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  1. CopyCat profile image57
    CopyCatposted 15 years ago

    Yeah thats right, the CopyCat is a atheist... No, I'm not a devil worshiper or anything like that... I don't believe in the devil or any of this fairy tail junk that there is no proof of... Such as big foot, locknest monster, leprechauns, black magic, horoscope, ghost, fairies, witches the list goes on and on... This doesn't make me a bad person, I still have morals that govern my way of life... But to think that there is some all knowing guy up there in the clouds with a big book that knows if you have been bad or good or that would even care is ludicrous... I think religion was meant to be a good thing... But instead it has caused more hate, war and fighting than any one thing on this earth... Now don't get me wrong, I would love to believe in this fairy tail hereafter thing... But everything that I know and understand says that when you die, that it, lights out... Is there anyone out there on my side ???

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      you forgot about unicorns, they exist ok.  I rode one on my way to Venus but I took a rocketship back cause the trip on the unicorn was too long and I was getting hungry.  I hope it is still alive.  I guess I should have thought about that a couple years ago.  oh well.

      but seriously,  yeah.  caused more bad then good, but think of how the world would be without it, probabaly worse.  No rules and such, laws suck, but laws are laws for a reason, though some are just stupid laws.  but that is the way it goes.

    2. Paul Mobley profile image60
      Paul Mobleyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Solo, the skeptic, began your teachings in the 14th century, and others have followed. Yet the Queen of Sheba, who had access to many sages, etc stated that Solomon was the wisest of all, and he predated Solo and others.

    3. mohitmisra profile image60
      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you Religions are good but have been misused by man and created a lot of hate and war.
      Today its the Muslim verses Christian war dominating the planet.Each believes he is correct.
      The same God has been given different names one calls Jesus Christ-Jevovah and the other calls God Allah.This is just a difference in language due to  geography-different languages where by both mean the same thing -GOD. Enlightened Ones Jesus and Mohammed describing the same divine light.

      As to the lights out when you die-
      The first law of dynamics-energy can neither be created nor be destroyed,so what happens to thet energy ,that thing which animates the body at the moment of death.

      In fact there is work to be done when you die.You must use your energy to travel towards the light and explode into it-become one with your source or god and be in a state of bliss.
      Poet Mohit.K.Misra

  2. H. P. Loveboat profile image75
    H. P. Loveboatposted 15 years ago

    I would argue that religion is a sort of filter that removes much of the hate that would have otherwise existed without it, but lets some slip through. Sure, the crusades and fundamentalists terrorists are bad and all, but I'd rather have them than a world of anarchy in which no one ever believed in a God and sees no reason to do good or even to live.

  3. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    I am not sure why you think you have to believe in God to do good or live?

  4. coolbreeze profile image42
    coolbreezeposted 15 years ago

    How true Big Brother some of the people that claim to not believe in God are the most spiritual people I know.

  5. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    There you go. What's up little bro? How's life treating you?

  6. knolyourself profile image60
    knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

    Me thinks religion as originally conceived is conservative,
    meaning that it represents all that is natural. 'Thou shall have no other gods before me.', or no alternatives. Then it gets mis-interpreted by progressives, where 'me' becomes something superior to nature, and thus allows the exploitation of the natural world.

  7. Eng.M profile image66
    Eng.Mposted 15 years ago

    hi everyone

    I think religion starts from a human desire to thank his creator


    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      ciao dudette,

      I think religion starts from a desire to control people with fear and a lack of understanding. big_smile

      Thanx baque

      1. Eng.M profile image66
        Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I mean understanding what religion is must start from why we want to do so

        I believe that god exists because I am a telecommunications engineer and when I look at creatures such as bats, bees and more I find complex wounderful communication technology that must be created by a great engineer

        our bodies shows similar technologis that had to be designed by some power

        in my opinion, we have to be thankful to this power since it gave us all the beauty in the world

        but sometimes people take advantages from religions to control people which is not the case I am talking about now

        again, I am saying: why should we search about god and the true religion if he exists?
        and my answer was to thank him by knowing what he wants from us


        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          There is no god - only the one you create to fill the empty void that comes from not being able to accept what is. He wants nothing from you - least of all thanks. But yes, I agree with you - people created and take advantage of religion to meet their own needs and desires. I agree - we don't need it.

          1. Eng.M profile image66
            Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            good day mr.Mark

            I know there is god because of technologies he put into his creatures

            by complex systems that had to be designed and planned by a powerful mind

            we call this great mind as god

            *for example:
            if you see a radar system that is designed for a specific purpose with little or no mistakes do you say that it was made by itself or by chance?

            bats have more complex radar systems than the most advanced and devloped one by human beings

            how do you know there is no god?


          2. Eng.M profile image66
            Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this


            it is enogh to understand that there is God from a single creature like a bat

            I'll tell you why mr.Atheist

            do you beleive that your PC was made by someone even if you haven't seen him?

            do not tell me it was by chance and evolution.

            you can know that there was a smart man designed your PC.

            not because you don't see God , then de doesn't exist.

            similary we may say that we don't see electricity and it doesn't exist.

            we do not see God but we notice his existence proofs.

            it is easy to know there's God from his creatures.

            his creatures(and you are one of them) could not be made without planning and designing.

            how do you explain rational behaviour from many animals.

            Mark : would you read about animals or any other creature and the way they were designed.
            are things designed by mistake??????????????????

            did you hear about a science called BIOMIMETICS?
            it is the science of imitating nature for technological development.

            are people imitating things that made by chance with a creating mind?

            our belief in God is not to fill empty.what empty?
            your refuse for God comes from the fact that you don't want to be controlled and directed by him.


            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              Nah. We have you way beat.

              Your belief in god comes from the fact that you are empty and unable to accept how unimportant you are.

              You are not important and the universe will not miss you when you are gone.

              Sorry. That's the way it is.

              Chance? No - more a case of trial and error.

              BIOMIMETICS is not a science. And even if it was, nature has nothing to do with god.

              Trial and error baby.

              Nature is not blind. Nature is beautiful and destructive and powerful and delicate.

              I understand that you think there is a god because there is a bat.

              Only god could create something so useless, therefore there is a god.

              And that makes you feel like you are important. More than you are. Eternal even. Never going to die. Here forever. Long lasting. Not short-lived. Not all over in a few short years. Happy even. Believing you are important. Special. And even when you do die, it is not all over. A special place at the side of god. Talking to Jesus for all eternity. Forever. Almost like another chance. Important. Much more important than the bat. And all because of a bat.

              A bat has convinced you there is a god. And you are more important than the bat. Special. Live forever.

              Really, you should check out the other thread. I much prefer the dolphin one.

              And just in case you missed what I was saying:

              I love bats. I can't imagine a life without the bats that live outside my home. Diving, ducking, eating the insects. They don't come every night, but I wait there - just in case they do come. And when they do come, I will stay there, watching them for as long as they are there. All night sometimes. Until they are gone. My wife loves me for doing that.You would think it would annoy her, but no, she understands how important bats are to me. Bats are special. Evolving the way they have. I love bats. Love dolphins too. I prefer bats and dolphins to humans actually. They understand. They live as though they only have this life.

              Which they do........ big_smile

              1. profile image0
                sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Maybe you aren't as important as you think.  But I am more important then you think.  What is a bat without it's watcher?  Nothing.  So what is God, but a bat?  If this is your analogy, then the reasons you find it important or special to watch a bat, others feel for God. 

                You are only delusioned by your missunderstanding of what people precieve as perfect and beautiful.  Maybe it is in an entity that you can't see, but some see because they wait patiently by a cave waiting for the "bat" to come, if you waited half as long for God as you do for a bat, then maybe you would really understand, but your a child who refused to believe in God before you gave God a chance.  smile

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I am no more important than a grain of sand on the beach. smile

                  If you want to think you are important, that is your choice.

                  A bat is a bat. With or without the watcher. No matter. But, I understand why you would think that the bat is nothing without the watcher. It makes you feel important. Special.

                  I watch the bats for my own pleasure. Not the bats.

                  If you want to think that a bat is god, that is your choice.

                  What you call god, I call a bat.

                  I have seen what you call god. The thing that scares you so. It doesn't scare me.

                  1. profile image0
                    sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                    I was thinking more like superior. LOL.  smile  I watch people for my pleaure.  You my bat baby!

              2. Eng.M profile image66
                Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                this is going far from being rational by taking it personally.

                do you think that all believers feel like this?

                what has this to do with knowing God?

                we want to know God to thank him not to fill the empty.(being thankful means you passed his test)

                I know what chance is.
                I know trials and errors because I am an engineer.

                everything in nature can not be made by chance because it is very systematic and smart.

                BIOMIMETICS  is an APPLIED science we use in our telecommunication systems. we immitate nature and nature was found by a mind because of its technological smart design(we call this brain God).

                we call this power God.

                oh man
                may be you love bats but they don't love you.

                I will give another example mr.(I am an atheist and I don't wanna think about it)

                1-who made the sound system of your home stereo?
                2-who made the sound system of your ears?

                (by the way: your ears' system is more complicated than the most advanced man made sound system in the world)

                1. Mark Knowles profile image59
                  Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  No. I have thought about it. I have studied it. I have considered it.

                  After careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that there is no god.

                  I do not need the bats to love me. The fact that they have evolved to where they are, and give me pleasure to watch them flying and darting around the night sky is enough for me. I can enjoy them for what they are. Bats.

                  I don't own a stereo, but if I did, it would produce sound rather than receive it.

                  No one "made," my ear's sound system.

                  Really, if you want to be considered for the Anti Evolution Hall of Fame, you are going to have to do better than that.


                  You are not important. I am not important. We are the same level of importance. I am no more important than you are. Is that too personal for you?

                  You are empty and need to fill the void with god. Feel free. Nothing I say will change your mind or your faith. Will it?

                  1. Eng.M profile image66
                    Eng.Mposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                    you need their love to avoid bites while watching them.

                    (you may establish a thread for bats and I'll be watching as you do with them).

                    your ears are receiving voice from air and producing it as an electrical signal to your brain.

                    and no one has made my home stereo.

                    I am important and unique because I am a human being , you can be not imprtant if you want.
                    please, don't judge people.
                    I agree with you that people have different motives to believe in God but not all of them are not good.

                    personal is to discuss people motives and intentions , impersonal is to  discuss ideas.

                    again dad , don't judge people.

                    I can fill the empty by smoking, drinking and getting high.

                    if people who fill the space with God are happy , then God is right.

                    don't you see , they feel comfortable when they believe.

                    who knows?

  8. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago


    You are going to have to come up with something better than that to qualify:



    There are bats, therefore there is a god LOLOLOL

    Please try harder.

    How do I know there is no god? Because I have seen, and it is not god . smile

    Thnkkxxx baque tou yer alse

  9. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Sorry, I just wanted to tell a really bad joke.  Religion is kind of a dead subject.  LOLOLOLOLOL. 


  10. SparklingJewel profile image67
    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Religion is not a dead subject...it is the name of the thread.

    Everyone is not in the same place in understanding about God and religions, spirituality and beliefs.

    I like your analogies Eng.M

    Don't take personally the die--atribes of Mark the athiest. smile

    I am thankful for God, as well!

    HE/SHE makes my day!! big_smile

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      It was a joke jewel.  I am thankful for God as well.  I thank God for people like you and Mark as well all the time.  smile

    2. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I bet the same thing was said about socrates when he tried to stand for something that did not tow the status quo.

      They axed him,

      Pretty much any atheist that opens his mouth is preaching an automatic diatribe, hmm, wonder why that is?

      After all, we all know that no atheist could possibly have a reason to not believe in God other than bitterness and angst riight?  I mean we all know that there are no children raised to believe they do not have to believe in the gods of their peers if they do not want to and that they can if they want to and who grow up and stay freethinkers riight?

      Atheism cannot possibly be anything other than the projection of negative energy onto others right?  I mean it could not possibly ever be someone simply trying to call it like it is right?


      As far as my own views on religion, I sincerely think there are a lot of truly religious (even dogmatic religious people) who do a lot of good in various charities and who really do strive to help people without forcing any belief on them even if they do manipulatively suggest their belief system to the people/persons they are "ministering" to. 

      To deny this would be to stick one's head in the sand.

      However on the other hand, we have nuclear weapons now and uhhhhh, we cannot get away with the extremism we used to, so I think it's time we grew up seriously.

      1. profile image0
        sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        lol, philosophers, preachers and scientist all get axed.  I think they get axed because they bring in a new way of thinking that in some ways scares people from the norm.

        I was a little shook once when I finally fathomed how large the Universe is, but it only got me more excited, I was getting a little bored with the shinanagans of Earth, thank God for those  Catholics back in the day, Kepler, Caprinicus, Newton (though Arianian) Nostradomus for thier works ehh.  smile Just to name a few.

  11. SparklingJewel profile image67
    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Hi Sandra, waz up? (is that how you mis-spell it! ? smile )

    How's the little one? and how can we make this look like a religion conversation...so we don't get "Maddied" ? HAHA!

    1. profile image0
      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Ok, gottcha I just sent you a pm, anyways, religion...

      For the most part, the only problem I have with religion is when one group wants to dominate another group, or when one group makes another one feel evil, condemed or otherwise wrong about how they chose to know and love God.

      As a personal belief, I do believe there is just one God, however I also believe that in that One God, there are many different interpretations, there are numerous texts written, there are other ways to show God love and to show each other love and finding one that fits best for youself is an achiement and I honestly really feel that chosing how you want to worship or where or when or how to pray is completely up the indavidual.

      I have strongly dislike the christain chuch because I  believe it goes completely againts Jesus' intentions.  I think it is foul play and disturbing when people will fight or otherwise hate people who do not believe in anothers particular faith or belief. 

      Yes, I have strong feelings about Jesus but no I do not believe he is God.  I believe that you can read the world in the stars and that the stars (Universe) have a lot to do with our behavior and patterns of the Earth, so with that I do not believe that Jesus is a wrathful deity, nor do I believe that God it'self is a wrathful one of sorts either. 

      There may be a place called hell but I don't believe anyone will go there and I also believe that Heaven is a place for everyone and everyone will go.  I don't believe anyone has to worship God of any sorts to be saved, but I do believe that even just a smidge of gratidude for even the Earth is good.  It's called respect for the world we live in. 

      I don't believe the world  will change itself and I do believe that people shape the world.  So I do want to push for a better place, but not because of God or how I feel about God, it's because of how I feel about life in general and how I feel about the whole Universe. 

      I do wish people held the same attitude, but I know that it is almost if not completely impossible to get people to know and understand or have better faith that it is ok to chose your own way, if not better because in this way you can be exteremly personal with God, be who you are and not feel as though you have done something wrong in regards to what another person tells you. 

      I do not believe that there is only one way.  And I will never not believe there is a God.  smile

  12. SparklingJewel profile image67
    SparklingJewelposted 15 years ago

    Atheists do the same manipulative ministering to others that people of religions do. It's hypocritical to hear them trying to say people of religions don't have a right to believe and act on their convictions. Some on both sides need to mature and find common ground and sometimes just stay away from each other, instead of going after each other.

    And as far as raising children, I happen to believe that raising them in a belief system is healthy for their development, of course I qualify that with how it is done and what is done if they reject it. It's a pretty broad spectrum.

    The two things that are not healthy are cynicism and sarcasm, they are just not a part of my definition of love.  Children need love to develop a grounding and stability to mature in esteem and have compassion for others. That is what the world needs.

    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Please show me an example of this particular atheist saying people do not have the right to believe whatever they wish to believe and act on their convictions.

      If you think it is OK that Islamic believers think they are going to heaven if they die killing an unbeliever, that is your right.

      And if you think sitting around praying for things to change is "acting," on your convictions, I don't really know what to say to you.

      And it is your choice if you think raising children in a belief system like this is healthy. But what you really mean is - your belief system. If that's what you need to do to get through the day, then I will not try to stop you.

      Cynicism and sarcasm are healthy ways of expressing your self because they cause you to question things. Not just if there is a god, but whether or not some things are "right," and whether or not you are being manipulated in the manner Zarm is talking about. This is far healthier than teaching children that there is a god, and no matter how many people they murder, no matter what damage they do to those around them as long as they profess "love," they will go to heaven. It's a cop-out. It's denial. It gives up all personal authority, and has caused more wars, suffering and hardship than anything else I know of.

      I have bought my children up to question things. Not sit in front of a candle saying they "love," people they have not met and thinking they are making a difference by doing nothing.


      1. SparklingJewel profile image67
        SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        I did say that I believe that raising children in a belief system is healthy... please reread what I said...what I said...not what you wanted to hear. I said a belief system is healthy...how you interpreted that is on you.     Assumptions and opinions...oh the problems they cause! I can only speak from my own experiences and my own perceptions.

        As always Mark, you are in my prayers!     poke poke smile

        Love ya

        1. Mark Knowles profile image59
          Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          LOL - Yes, you said that you believe that raising children in a belief system is healthy. That is what I heard. Why do you believe that? Do you somehow equate a belief system with a value system? And that one cannot exist without the other as many of the christians do?

          Raising children to believe that the world was created last week by an all-powerful god who will punish you if you don't do as the priest tells you?

          Or do you really mean that you think raising children in your belief system is healthy. big_smile And that other's aren't presumably?

          Pray away big_smile Love ya right back.

          1. SparklingJewel profile image67
            SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Isn't a value system a belief system? Isn't atheism a belief system? Isn't agnosticism a belief system? Isn't Christianity a belief system?, Isn't believing working to take care of yourself and your family is a good thing,  a belief system? Isn't believing a clean house is good, a belief system? Yes, I really did mean to say any belief system, not just mine is best.

            My beliefs were best for my children, because they chose to be born to me because of who I was at the time. I was too busy with my own kids then to be too worried about what others kids were learning from their parents, I only spoke up when I felt it was necessary...like one time I stopped a lady from beating her kid in the grocery store...boy she lit into me like I was wrong...but at least she stopped what she was doing there in the store. Who knows what happened to the kid after that.

            Now, I can still have my opinions and say or not say, do or not do concerning someone else and their kids or them and their life. I'm not twisting anyones arm...just trying to share.

            How could I think anything else other than believing how I raised my children in a spiritual belief system was a good thing. Though of course, I look back and recognize what could have been done better, but it's healthier to say well, I did the best I could with what I had been given and tried to do better than I received as I perceived so.

            It is sad to hear when any religion tells children they will go to hell if they don't listen to the ministers, priest, heads of churches, etc..  My first two kids got nothing about religion/spirituality and my last two received a lot. It has been very interesting to see the differences between them and to perceive how they have helped each other or ignored each other. And the changes I have gone through and tried to recognize about myself. In retrospect, I am aware I have given them all a sense of connection to their highest level of guidance and not to listen to people that are in opposition to that inner guidance.

            I really do like best the Buddhic concept of "there are no coincidences in the universe". That has provided me the greatest sense of forgiveness and consolation in how I raised my children.

            1. Mark Knowles profile image59
              Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

              No atheism is not a belief system. I have explained in detail what atheism is on one of the other threads.

              And a value system is not a belief system either.

              So you are choosing to use the words "belief system," in a way other than  a belief in a higher power then? When you say belief system, you mean like  believing that milk will go bad if you leave it in the sun, or believing that the mail will be delivered or believing that things fall to the floor when you drop them or believing that the earth is flat......

              Pretty much any belief is a belief system, which rather makes your first statement meaningless. Because everyone raises all children in a belief system of one kind or another. Even it's the belief that children should be seen and not heard and thrashed once a week for their own good. 

              I don't believe in coincidences either. Or lawyers, or the law, or the government. Rule one - question everything. big_smile

              1. SparklingJewel profile image67
                SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Darn, I just got done giving a thorough response and then hubpages went down and lost it (smilie with gritted teeth !)

                No, I was using the term "belief system" in the context of a higher power. It is a higher consciousness to know that milk will spoil if left in the sun; it is a higher consciousness to know that beating your children is not the best for the child or one's self; it is a higher consciousness to believe that prayer for the economy, for instance, will make a difference, but that it may not be immediately apparent because it is spread out among people that all have their own idea of how it works, or doesn't work, and change will not happen overnight. And that the mass consciousness and its diversity creates chaos. But I do believe that it can be worked out, eventually.

                so, even though I was speaking in general of a belief system, I did mean one of a higher consciousness...and I know this is where you and I seem to  have our chasm of lack of understanding each other. I do believe humanity is more, spiritually (has a higher consciousness) than most  even know. I certainly have found it to be so.

                A higher consciousness beyond knowing milk will sour, which is higher than not knowing. A higher consciousness that believes in the power of one's own consciousness because it is connected to levels of divine consciousness, Mind of God, that knows All.  Akasha is the memory part of that All Mind of limitless energy, past present and future, is of the Source of All. This connection is what a path of enlightenment is all about, a study of mystical religions is all about, the whole Oneness thing.

                In my book atheism is a belief system on the spectrum at a particular point on the grand scale...but I perceive it only as I do and can't possibly perceive it as you do...it is yours. We really don't need to go into that again ! smile

  13. profile image0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years ago

    I hate to inform you but people just innately acting within their own personality can be very sarcastic and sometimes cynical.  You talk about tolerance of religious values yet you have no respectful tolerance for people to disagree in a manner that is cynical or sarcastic as that is "unhealthy".  While cynicism certainly can kill the soul, that is a well known understanding to anyone who seeks wisdom, a little bit is healthy, because without cynicism one just eats everything right up that people say like a dog when it is starving.

    As far as you making a broad statement about atheist's doing it "manipulatively" in a manner that people of religions do I think you are seriously wrong on two counts.

    #1 you did not qualify that statement, atheists as a whole are not around to "preach the good news of common sense" in the way that religious people "preach the good news" of anything.  They realize the danger in irrational positions, the longterm danger and they try to convince people to stay away from that which is irrational, hoping to ultimately further the survival of our species and harmony in nature and with each other. 

    While I would like to agree with you just to reenforce my skepticism I simply cannot as you did not qualify your statement.

    So do you think that if an atheist is ministering in a charitable capacity you think he will say "I am glad I could help you, remember to listen to the voice of reason"?  That sounds like it might happen, but the problem with that is, how is that manipulative unless the person believes in god and the atheist trys to talk that person out of belief when they are at a weak point?  No atheist I know with a responsible honest sense of morals would ever do that as it is by definition manipulative.  Ever see those Baptist signs "When you are down, God is up"?  No atheist in his right mind would ever take that approach unless he was just dishonest (and some are).

    If this is your position (the one stated above as I am guessing) then you are also forgetting that within almost any religious belief system imaginable there is some consequence for not following "the system", whether it is bad kharma, eternal hellfire, or denied entrance into the afterlife. 

    Any atheist can and will tell you if asked, if he/she is responsible, that if you do not use common sense and avoid irrational things that yes you are being irresponsible but they will never tell you you are going to hell forever, or that if you don't follow their belief system there will be some consequence in the life hereafter.

    On the contrary if you waste your "glimpse of the universe" as Carl Sagan put it, chances are you will just die and cease to exist.  There will be no "god" or god(s)" or labrynth or hellfire or kharma to make up for, you just simply will not be and this is according to current scientific understanding and resisting the urge towards magical thinking or wishful thinking. 

    For all we know in 50,000 years we might discover otherwise, but that would be then and this is now.

    I am no atheist as I do not take a strong position on "god's" existance as "god" has to be defined first before I can actually discuss his existance in a 1 on 1 conversation.

    I am 1 part atheist and functionally agnostic, hence atheistic agnostic.

    Why would I spend the rest of my life trying to convince people 'god" does not exist?

    By definition it is almost always impossible, and when it is you can usually see the person is open to the idea that maybe occultic spiritual forces are not real, that maybe they cannot be proven scientifically to exist, and that hence they are not worth worrying about.

    Of course the mind clears quite a bit once a person embraces this premise as they can quickly see how people throw their lives away in the name of some unseeable unproveable force and how it hurts the people who are left behind.

    The difference between saying "After death there is nothing" and "After death is eternal hellfire for the non believers" is big.  In one scenario you do  not get the promise of any sort of "hope" for something in the afterlife, but in the other there is this sort of "thing" that needs to be worked for in the afterlife, or in the next life.

    Emotionally I would love to believe something spiritual, I really would seriously. 

    But how?  Each and everytime another human being fall's for the glittery gold shine of magical thinking, and consequently does not fully develop his own sense of mortality then other people suffer..

    They suffer because the individual taking the immortal nature of his soul to be a granted automatically assumes that others must have this nature (at least most do in this day and age with modern belief systems).  So if other people have this nature but they die, then it is ok in the long run because after all their soul will survive. 

    People are automatically dehumanised in some way shape or form when people take serious claims of an afterlife or a reincarnation without proof of it.

    It is called "psychic numbing".

    I send my boy off to war in Iraq, he goes to fight the war on terror and dies, well he was saved by the blood of Jesusand he did not backslide before he died as far as I knew, and he died to protect us and the rest of the free world so automatic +heaven.  In that case what may never dawn on me is that I dehumanised my boy and I also dehumanised the terrorists he fought even more.  To top it off I would have also de facto dehumanised myself by necessity of perception.

    While you may find your broad sweeping statements to have wisdom I do not, I do not compare one class of people in general terms. 

    That would be  like me saying "All religious people or spiritual people even if they are not dogmatic manipulate people".

    If blanket statements float your boat then pile em on and cozy on up.  I personally am uncomfortable with anything that suggests equating one thing to another when the things in question are different and encompass broad areas and require qualification when described (i.e comparing an atheist to a religious person).

    1. SparklingJewel profile image67
      SparklingJewelposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Good Morning Zarm,

      Nice to meet you too! smile Now that I have a glimpse at starting to know you, feel free to check out some of my hubs to get to know me. If you reread my previous entry, the one you are responding to, you will see that I tried to be unbiased/middle ground. Maybe I could use the words "Some"  people more often, but I did use them and similar ones.

      Yes I have opinions of my own, as do you. And mine are what they are for now...I do try to learn and change as necessary. Assumptions of what others think...we all have them, right...that mirror that reflects back from another at us what really comes from within ourselves.

      I am no big logical thinker, but I am trying to learn balance between logical and spiritual thought for discussion and writing. Feel free to leave any input on my hubs you desire, I may not leave them up if they get nasty, but I will read and consider them!

      You could write some hubs of good length, you have a lot to say. Give it a try.

      Welcome to HubPages big_smile

  14. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I for one am completely sarcastic,  I do try to watch what I say, but I find it hard to watch something I can not see.  lol.


  15. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    LOL Zarm,

    You lost me. I managed to read your post on the neighbor thread, but I can't for the life of me start another marathon here. Please, I enjoy reading what you have to say - but in moderation big_smile Make them several times shorter, please, and don't pack your whole worldview into a single post. We are having conversation here, not lecture, right?

    I have no intention to offend you in any way, I'm just begging you to put your thoughts into more comprehendable package smile

    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      To be quite honest misha I do not know if I can without having to slow down too much.  It is just a search for truth for me, I do not intend to lecture at all, just giving an opinion on things.
      Also my whole worldview, well it is difficult for me to say this, but it is not really comperehensively expressed in a single post. 

      What I think is comprehensively expressed in my posts but I do not expect them to be read in entirety or perhaps even at all.  It is just an opinion, I can try to make them shorter but that would consume far more time than just to dump the thoughts I have in my head onto the screen and make minor edits. 

      I for one will not be offended if you choose to skim my posts or ignore them, I do not aim to rant or rave or lecture I just like giving thorough and comprehensive opinions in the moment, otherwise I will forget what I am writing if I do not capture it.

      Perhaps you do like what I have to say, and want me to slow down.  Maybe that is all you are saying, and if so perhaps somehow I can do that.  I just analyze things at a ridiculous depth and rate and not to compare myself to others the depth and rate at which I do it is rarely vocalized or verbally talked about because of the fact that it is so intense, hence to some (at least in RL) I can be intense at times when I stray from small talk.  I can try to slowdown I will do my best I do not mean to overbear I just say a lot.

      Oh hell idk.

      dmit, I dont know how to say what I am about to say without coming across the wrong way.

      The reason I use the internet to communicate and am a total geek is because in real life there is rarely a time and place for anything outside of small talk.

      And since small talk positively drives me up the wall I come here to debate serious questions but then I evidently run into somewhat similar problems.

      I will try as hard as I can not to come across as arrogant when I say this (although I hopelessly will).

      For me the sole purpose of intellectual existance is to understand that which is not us and to understand that which is.  Every aspect of it humanly possible, why it happens and how it happens.  Loving people is the other counterpart and is the emotional expression of the flip side of that coin, and its a good flip side.

      It is hard for me to slow down intellectually for others, so hard in fact that I well....

      It is not that I think people are somehow less it is because if I try that too much then I end up burning up the break pads quickly so to speak.

      In any case I will try to make things shorter when I post and not edit things 5 times if I can.  We shall see.

      There are no words for the despair the thing I just described causes me in real life.

      INTP's are severely misunderstood I once heard quoted on another forum.

      Oh well, sucks to be me.

      I am sure I will adjust

      1. Misha profile image63
        Mishaposted 15 years agoin reply to this

        Can't even say "LOL" cause I know very well how you feel...

        To start with, I myself is INT(P-J). At least I was when I last time took the test. smile So I can easily relate on most of what you are saying...

        To continue, my older son is 25 years old and looks very much like you smile All that makes me very partial to you, really...

        And I like very much what you have to say - when I force myself to make enough effort to read it. wink I see that you are searching, I see that you know a lot already, I see that you knowledge is not parroting, I see that you are honest to yourself and others...

        So I might be able to help you a bit if I can share how I deal with the problem. First - I edit. If I write anything longer than a single sentence, I spend way more time editing it than writing. Trying to make it as short as possible and as understandable as possible.

        Second - I try to have it one piece at a time. Talking about the whole worldview was a metaphor, but it has a grain of truth to it. I know very well that in order to explain this concept you have to explain this one first and that one even before. Well, I gave up on this, and I'm trying to explain those underlying ones in subsequent posts - if needed at all.

        Sure it's not always possible, but even trying to do this makes a text much more readable smile

        And at least you know to break it in paragraphs! big_smile

        The best thing about all that "writing discipline" is that after you go through such a torture of putting your thoughts in order, you get much clearer picture for yourself, too smile

        Hope I did not offend you in any part, and if I did - it was unintentional, and I am sorry for that...

        1. profile image0
          Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you perhaps that is all it is, learning how to edit stuff I write in order to be a better writer.  Is new for me, so will be challenging.

  16. revverdin profile image59
    revverdinposted 15 years ago

    Wether or not a person blieves in God, I think that all should be able to understand the principal of prayer. It's not just wasted time of asking some one else to fix your problems. It is a time of sobber meditation on ones own life. It's no different then when a carpentor builds a house. You will actually save a lot more time, and be more productive in the long run if you consider your actions befor you make them.

    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      People do consider their actions through introspective reflection without resort to humbling onself before god almighty, instead they choose to humble themselves bfore other people if they find something on their conscience they did wrong and that they weigh carefully too.

      The end result is hardly narcissistic but instead it leaves out the deflating element that comes about when talking to imaginary friends whose expectations you by definition can never live up to <<should they objectively exist>>>, but sometimes "feel" you are living up to and sometimes "feel" you are not. 

      It is simply man idiolozing another part of himself to label parts of his own psyche as "god(s)" and then pray to them and humble himself.  It creates all kind of problems cause other people define that part of his psyche, hence the manipulation factor, at least in as much as the man or woman or child in question believes that other people hear the voice of god and are speaking to the person in question in the situation at hand in a manner that is agreeably representative of the voice of god(s) in question.

      Psychological dichotymy.  It's perfect.

      Btw, children will invent imaginary friends without any prompting from adults, so it is possible given enough time and evolution even if no one believed in god(s) they might crop up again if someone got in a position of power as an adult and slapped a dogmatic label on them and enforced people through guilt to believe in his imaginary friend or the imaginary friend of someone he knew who created it.

      Of course for conmen who whilst having an intuitive feel for human nature also have a malicious bent by definition, the "black art" of making up mental mindgames and resting on the laurels of perceived authority (percieved by his victims), then duping people and getting them to follow suit is is a phenomenon best described by saying "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king".  Some humans are smart enough and even malicious enough (because they objectify other humans as objects to be fooled) that inventing such a mindgame for the sole purpose of the propsering of the conman/conwoman in question is easy enough and they get off on it.  That is why people who stick to reason refuse to acknowledge things like "The problem of evil spirits" within a spiritual context because if you play that mindgame at the behest of other people who are already duped then you fall prey yourself.  There are no evil spirits, only evil men or evil women, at least that seems to be what is indicated by the available data at the moment without relying on having to accept a premise (like psi experiments) in order to get certain results.

      I digressed.  Back to topic at hand.  Children really do though, they make up imaginary friends all the time with no prompting.  It is easy for a "god" to come out of this if such foolishness is not left behind in childhood where it belongs. 

      Unfortunately for those amongst the human race who believe in a personal God it never is, and the rest of us pay the consequence because they do not grow up.

  17. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    Gosh, Wish you were around to lay into my own mom for givin me the beatin in the grocery store.  Of course my Mom woulda layed into you as well.  She's like that.  smile 

    Last night my husband said something interesting.  He usually doesn't say anything interesting at all.  He said:  Religions are just another political system, a different form of government. 


    1. Mark Knowles profile image59
      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Your husband is wise.

  18. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Well, it sucks that hubpages died and you lost that. (not going to make another huge quote)

    But - big_smile  I don't understand how a higher consciousness has anything to do with the economy. As I understand it, the two are mutually exclusive.

    Whenever I plug into what you choose to call higher consciousness, I have no interest in or awareness of something so mundane. And certainly have no interest in attempting to bend it to my will. Or see the point.

    But most "lowly consciousnesses" know not to drink spoiled milk. And most predatory animals will not eat diseased tissues.

    As far as "oneness" goes, this has very little to do with our day-to-day distractions. And matters not a whit. Like  a grain of sand on the beach....big_smile

  19. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    Zarm, that reminds me:


    1. profile image0
      Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      lol mark.  funny picture man gave me teh giggles


  20. profile image0
    sandra rinckposted 15 years ago

    I am a geek too Zarm.  smile

  21. Mark Knowles profile image59
    Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

    INTP ?

  22. profile image0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years ago

    INTP is a personality type.

    Lincoln, descartes, pascal, socrates, einstein, jung and others had INTP personalities

    Myers Briggs type testing reveals a persons personality.

    Data from Star Trek TNG is a good example of a fictitious representation of an INTP personality type.

  23. profile image0
    Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years ago

    I have got three good things that come out of religion in general.

    #1 Charity 

    Can't deny this, and a lot of good work is done as well as bad through this mechanism.

    #2 Social sense of deep interconnectedness

    Religion usually provides this between the various families in a parish

    #3 The intention to try to face life's problems

    In my opinion even though this gets warped badly and results in untold suffering, at least it's there even if it is through magical thinking and in what is in my opinion a basically flawed outlook.

    Those are three things I find good in most major religions.

    Those three things also happen to be present to some extent and through various manifestations in the system of ethics and morals known as Secular Humanism as well.

    Most cannibals I know...er lol ... most other uncivilized people have these things in some respects already present in some manifestation within whatever religion or spirituality they have themselves.


  24. Eng.M profile image66
    Eng.Mposted 15 years ago

    plesae check this out Mark


    and tell me : how can minds learn from blind nature.

    they must be learning from the designer of the nature.

    products that made by chance can not be used and copied as complicated smart designed systems.

  25. Misha profile image63
    Mishaposted 15 years ago

    LOL My Goddess, you are so funny big_smile

  26. Eng.M profile image66
    Eng.Mposted 15 years ago

    we need bats' thread.

  27. Eng.M profile image66
    Eng.Mposted 15 years ago

    searching for the truth in my opinion begins from studying our bodies and other creatures as well.

    when we understand that there are several different designs in nature those can not be appeared by itself and there must be a mind behind them.

    at that moment , we would know that there is a higher power than us.

    a perfect power that created beauties and therefore it would be the most beautiful in life.


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