Absolute Free Will

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   marinealways24posted 15 years ago

   What is absolute free will? Does it exist? Would absolute free will be will without consequences?

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      The Paulposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      It absolutely does not exist.  Note the large number of physically possible actions you can not choose to take.  You have the illusion of their availability, but when you really think about it you can't choose them.

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         marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Why can't you choose them, because of consequences? Back to the original, is free will free when it has consequences? Is consequences what keeps will from being free?

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            The Paulposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Consequences don't physically restrain us, they only inform our decisions.  They play a certain role, but it's more fundamental than society imposing consequences on us...
            
            There are things you theoretically could do, except you don't want to, and you can't want to, so you can't do them.  Because you don't have absolute free will.

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               marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I think the thoughts of consequences restrains our physical actions. If there was no punishment, there would be much more crime in existence. Sometimes the threat of punishment prevents the crime.

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                  The Paulposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Doesn't matter if they do.  Even if they don't, you don't have free will.  At your core, the genetics that control the shape of your brain have programmed you to want certain things, not to want others.  You are forced to think in certain patterns and can never escape it, can't even try, because you can't want to.
                  
                  We humans don't have absolute free will.

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                     marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     You can change the wiring and balance in the brain. You can literally reprogram it in some cases.

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                        AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Certainly not all of it. Which brings us back to the question of "absolutes".

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                        The Paulposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Supposing someone else can give you catastrophic brain damage (or an accident could) that makes you enjoy the sensation of dangerous levels of electricity being conducted through your body, makes you regard children as something to be destroyed in all cases, or makes you hate the taste of normal nutrients... this would be someone else imposing on your free will.
                        
                        If you had the power to inflict that change on yourself, that power would only be an illusion, because you would never use it.

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      B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      We are all born with free will, and pure innocence. The government does not allow us to exercise our free will as we should and now , in this day and age, our innocence is lost way too soon.
      It is a very sad thing..
      So yes, it does exist in all of us, but we never get to fully use our free will.
      
      BTW..I love your pic of the baby and boxer, if they are your's, you are 1 lucky person ( from one boxer lover to another )
      ~ Kerry

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   tantrumposted 15 years ago

   Absolute Free Will doesn't exist , since you're part of a Society that controls you.

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      AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      and in a body

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         AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         and exist on a physical plane with laws of physics everywhere

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      marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Is it possible to separate from society and control?

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         AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Your question is about absolutes. It is possible to separate from society by going living in the woods, but you still have a whole past replete with influences on your mind from the past that came from society.

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            marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Maybe this is why so many use meditation? Maybe meditation is the only absolute free will?

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               AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I meditate, so I am not without sympathy for this position. However, again, your question was about "absolutes". Absolute freedom is impossible. Can you choose to suddenly start to talking to me in Chinese. For that matter, can you suddenly decide to stop understanding English. How about walking. Could you decide one day to stop knowing how to walk

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                  marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  There can't be absolute freedom in the mind without absolute freedom in the body? How about a person that commits suicide, was it not their absolute freedom to end their life? I don't understand the relation of the questions you asked if you would please explain.

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                     AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Absolute freedom of the mind is not absolute freedom.
                     
                     People living in concentration camps (in some cases) claimed after the fact that they learnt absolute freedom of the mind (Viktor Frankl and his book Man's Search for Meaning is the best-known case, but there are said to be cases of POW's in Vietnam too), but that is not the kind of freedom that people died for on the beaches of Normandy.
                     
                     Freedom of the mind is definitely NOT absolute freedom. In the country I live in I am very free to think what I want about the govt, but am not free to vote...

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                        marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Excellent points. Which is more important if you had to choose, being free in mind or free in body? I agree with you, I think it takes both in search of absolute freedom and free will.
                        
                        Would society be manageable if there was absolute free will? It would be complete anarchy. Maybe there is a good reason there is not absolute freedom and free will.

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                           AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           One reason it would be a bad idea is that free will does not guarantee that people will be wise with that free will.
                           
                           I think we in the West have got carried away... I think that it is good that we emphasize personal freedom, and very good that we try to criticize our govts as much as we do, but sometimes we actually have something to *learn* from society... If society forces me to do certain things, some of those things are GOOD things... my own personal wisdom is certainly not infallible

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                              marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              Great points again, you didn't give me anything to disagree with. lol

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            cosetteposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            and even if you live in the woods, you are still subject to the whims of Mother Nature, and encounters with animals, etc.
            
            no one is 100% free to do as they please.

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               prettydarkhorseposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               as we are living in a society and we have expectations of individuals

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         tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Only in your imagination
         Free will existed long time ago, before IDs, Bank accounts, borderlines, Psychology, Religion, Laws, etc.
         And only true free spirits achieved it

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      double_frickposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      i have free will to defy societies silly notions.
      and even if that may mean incarceration in some future reality, or even death, i would still have free will enough to choose death over someone taking my sovereignty, no?
      
      i believe we all have free will and that consequences, karma or social consequences, should be taken into account when utilizing free will positively.
      
      i will add that it is easy to perceive that humans do not have free will completely.
      but from a higher perspective it is easy to see that regardless of the seeming limitations or contradictions to free will in this reality, we still retain that.
      
      those that attempt to deceive people into believing otherwise will be held accountable for their own actions. and i believe it is part of the "game" for many to be easily led to believe they are victims, taking back that power is part of winning the game and all will eventually though not many are or will at this moment.
      
      just my .50 cents.

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   theirishobserver.posted 15 years ago

   Hello Tantrum, 3pm here in Ireland, must agree not much free will in a society, well except in the bedroom, but is Big Brother watching

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   alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

   no free will, because you are not living alone

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   skyfireposted 15 years ago

   

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      tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      

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      marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      

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   alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

   you know marine even Tarzan has to consider animals when he decides what to do

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   alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

   absolute is only absolute when you ask me is this a pencil and then we agreed beforehand that it is indeed a pencil or one dollar is one dollar, we agree on the meaning

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      AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      ?

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      tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Free will, is an action, not a statement.

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         alexandriaruthkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         this is in naming an object, there is an agreed definition
         
         unlike perceptions or opinions

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   alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

   say this is a pencil yes I agree this is a pencil so it is absolutely a pencil

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      AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Not sure about that. Say we agree that Jews are not humans...

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         tantrumposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         

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         alexandriaruthkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         agreed upon that this is a forum, it is indeed a forum

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            AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I know of a lot of people who think Obama wasn't born in the United States, that Russia may invade us through Alaska, and that George Bush comes from Texas

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               alexandriaruthkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               do they also disagree about a pencil is a pencil, see, this is an opinion

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                  AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Not following you

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                     alexandriaruthkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     this is offline to the main topic
                     
                     there is no absolute free will because you are not living alone, see even Tarzan needs to consider the animals around
                     
                     as for absolute truth it is tied to the definition of things, absolute is absolute only in defining things

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                        AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Well, I guess she(?) is gone to WalMart.... still, the act of defining things does not create absolutes -- thank God. Otherwise I could define myself as God's representative on earth, get everyone to agree (agreement seems to be the criterion Alexandria is using), and then I would suddenly therefore be him... not good...

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   skyfireposted 15 years ago

   Absolute ?
   
   Let's see this way, can human program perfect random number ?No  why? because there is predefined algorithm for any random generator. If not, there is no free will from god either. Any action of humans becomes part of predefined state of god's known set of results. So free will-smith is BS.

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    alexandriaruthkposted 15 years ago

    I will go to WALMART, hi marine and adsense, BYE
    
    marine you have a fetish for the absolute hehe

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       marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       Bye, have a good day. I agree, I think they are stimulating.

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    Niteriterposted 15 years ago

    I am a person of faith. I firmly believe that I can live better and save money by shopping at WalMart. I believe it because it is written by the people who run WalMart.

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    astoicposted 15 years ago

    Is this about the eternal issue of Fate and Free Will?

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       marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

       And internal. I think it takes both internal and external to be absolute free will.

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          Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Free will is internal. External isn't free will it's forced control.

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             marinealways24posted 15 years agoin reply to this

             How is internal absolute free will when the internal can be manipulated and indoctrinated?

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                Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                Because, manipulated and indoctrinated, usually takes place, before children even learn about their own responsibilities, for their own life.
                
                Influences allow for decisions to be made, which only come from the use of free will.

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    Cagsilposted 15 years ago

    By the way- Free will is absolute, in and of, itself. It's the thought, then action of that thought that makes it complete.

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    Happyontheinsideposted 15 years ago

    here's another 50
    
    What if you could, theoretically obtain some form of mental free will using the parts of our brains that we lock by ourselves b3ecause of the constraints we have placed on ourselves via society. What if; we had free will once, and it didn't work? What if we decided that there needed to be constraint - at some point in history we all sat down and said - you know what? We gotta draw out some base lines here or we're never going to be able to live together...Then what do you know - Latin springs up so they can all communicate, rules become spoken, then written...eventually whole systems of government form because we forgot to keep at least a little of our free will because we forgot what it was like to have it completely. Now I'm not talking about constraints of the physical nature - I'm talking about mental bounds - the parts of our brains that we simply don't know enough about...What if in trying to understand ourselves better we could unlock things we haven't realised we could do in thousands of years?
    
    As for absolute free will of the body and the mind...I don't know. I like to think that anything is possible where the human brain is concerned. I also think that you can only take the topic so far before it gets really confusing...

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    SirDentposted 15 years ago

    Joh 8:36  If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
    
    True freedom can only come through Jesus Christ.

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       AdsenseStrategiesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       and democracy. (Just sayin')

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    sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago

    We were given free agency to choose, we ALL were given free agency.

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       That is true. I like to say we have the freedom to make a choice.

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    sneakorocksolidposted 15 years ago

    Sir Dent as usual you're right!

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    The Paulposted 15 years ago

    The things that truly constrain your free will are things like empathy, conscience, and guilt.  You must experience anxiety and distress upon seeing a member of your "group" suffer, you must feel it is right to attempt to alleviate that suffering, you must feel guilt if you believe you have caused it. 
    
    You don't have a choice in these matters.  These feelings are not switches you can hit, they control how you act by controlling how you think.
    
    Imagine what a monster you'd be if those constraints on your free will were removed.

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    Greg Cremiaposted 15 years ago

    If you choose to live, you have to eat to stay alive so the choice/freedom to eat is not yours.

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       If you are surrounded by food and still do not eat, then it is your choice to not eat.

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    skyfireposted 15 years ago

    In any case, no matter how many choices we make in life those are predictable and are not random so there goes free will down.

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       SirDentposted 15 years agoin reply to this

       If all choices are so predictable, why do so many choose so many different things? It stands to reason that if all choices were predictable, then everyone would have to choose the exact same things.

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          skyfireposted 15 years agoin reply to this

          Not at all. For example, you choose to write hub on something  right now, i don't cause i have no topic but you can. Based on available experience/data our actions vary. Still all our actions are predictable. To explain more, can you design a random number generator without any algorithm ? You can't, each result becomes predictable to designer as per algorithm.

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    theirishobserver.posted 15 years ago

    Sorry, wrong room, I thought it said, FREE WILLIE

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    skyfireposted 15 years ago

    

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    Cagsilposted 15 years ago

    Free Will is an absolute. We are able to choose every action we dictate to ourselves.
    
    Free Will isn't tied to our emotions. We are not free to feel what we so choose to feel. We are able to control some emotions, but not all of them, for which, some are instinctive and require no thought/thinking behind them, which is where Free Will comes into play.
    
    Free Will only exists, because consciousness exists.
    
    If you had no consciousness/awareness of life, then you wouldn't be able to have your individual thoughts. Hence, no Free Will.
    
    Just a thought.

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    fruit.banditposted 15 years ago

    My take on this is we have a measure of freedom to direct the flow of things, but that we cannot stop the flow, or reverse its direction, or control it.
    
    Natural laws of cause and effect, societal laws, perceptions and dispositions learned in the past: all influence our decisions.
    
    But, it is possible to cultivate changes in our own mind with practice, with sustained effort, to counteract our tendencies towards certain modes of thought and decision making. This is something animals, as we know them, are not capable of.
    
    Whatever we choose to do, we will always answer to cause and effect. Existence is ordered  such that for every action there is a reaction: our thoughts and actions ALWAYS make a ripple, however small. All things are implicated with one another.
    
    -------------------------------------------
    "But what says Zeus? 'Epictetus, if it were possible, I would have made both your little body and your little property free and not exposed to hindrance. But as it is, don't let it slip your mind: THIS BODY IS NOT YOURS, but only clay smartly tangled.
    And since I was not able to do for you what I have mentioned,
    I have given you a small portion of us,
    this faculty of pursuing an object and avoiding it, and the faculty of desire and aversion,
    and, in a word, the ability to use the appearances of things...'"
    
    - Epictetus

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