A lesson to be learned...

1. 70

   Allan Bogleposted 13 years ago

   I have been absent from the forums for awhile so I decided to come back and read a few posts here and there the other night. To my astonishment I noticed that Mark Knowles and a few others claim that there are 42 similarities between Jesus and Horus. These similarities of course come mostly from the Zeitgeist film Rishy Rich references. Now before I get started, please take note that Mark said the following concerning these similarities:
   
   "Horus was a mythical being upon which your religion is based."
   
   "You do not deny that your religion is stolen I see."
   
   "You must be very angry to discover that the story of jesus is just a belief stolen from the story of Horus."
   
   "It astounds me that people will deny this. Sadly - they get their personal power from regurgitating myths."
   
   "I personally have seen evidence in favor of this."
   
   "These are striking parallels that cannot be ignored."
   
   "If you want to address the fact that it proves that your religion is a lie....this is the truth."
   
   Mark has insinuated he will provide the contemporary scholarly evidence to back up these claims. To be honest, I am shocked that anyone even takes the claims that Zeitgeist has made. Both Christian and atheist/agnostic scholars have routinely denounced the film. Recently, Skeptic magazine stated that it was "incredible" that anyone would take these claims seriously and that it was akin to accepting the premise of a Twilight Zone episode. The main individual who is pushing these views is known by the moniker of Acharya S (who was the chief advisor for the religion part of the film, which most of these these claims come from; and from Massey) but we will get to them later. So that I will not fill up dozens of pages with evidence concerning the 42 assertions I will tackle a few and others by request if need be. So lets take a look at some of the ones Mark claims are true.
   
   “Horus was born of a virgin on December 25th”.
   
   Horus was not born of a virgin at all. Indeed, one ancient Egyptian relief depicts this conception by showing his mother Isis in a falcon form, hovering over an erect phallus of a dead and prone Osiris in the Underworld . And the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all.
   
   Indeed, the description of the conception of Horus will show exactly the sexual elements that characterize pagan 'miracle births', as noted in ancient Egyptian accounts:
    
   "But after she [i.e., Isis] had brought it [i.e. Osiris' body] back to Egypt, Seth managed to get hold of Osiris's body again and cut it up into fourteen parts, which she scattered all over Egypt. Then Isis went out to search for Osiris a second time and buried each part where she found it (hence the many tombs of Osiris tht exist in Egypt). The only part that she did not find was the god's penis, for Seth had thrown it into the river, where it had been eaten by a fish; Isis therefore fashioned a substitute penis to put in its place. She had also had sexual intercourse with Osisis after his death, which resulted in the conception and birth of his posthumous son, Harpocrates, Horus-the-child. Osiris became king of the netherworld, and Horus proceeded to fight with Seth..."
   
   claim: Horus's mother was Meri, Jesus's mother was Mary. Horus's foster father was called Jo-Seph, and Jesus's foster father was Joseph.
   
   Outright fabrication. Isis is Horus’s mother’s name not Meri.  In addition, Seb is not Horus’s father, Osiris is. Seb is Osiris’s father. Once again, this is a clear case of simple fabrication. However Mark claims to have evidence proving this is true. Mark, please provide the evidence.
   
   claim: Jesus was born in a cave.
   Absolutely false. Mark provide the evidence for this claim.
   
   claim: Both births were announced by angels.
   
   There is no mention in the ancient text of angels witnessing Horus's birth. There is no indication that there ever were 3 wisemen either.  The bible never mentions the number of wisemen, nor is there any document that reflects 3 deities at the birth of Horus. Good luck finding it.
   
   claim: Both came of age at 12, were baptized and their baptizers were executed.
   
   There is no historical record that Horus was preaching in a temple when he was 12.  Another fabrication from Acharya and repeated by those who dont research.However, Mark claims evidence for this, mark, please provide the evidence.
   
   Horus was never baptized in any of the Horus stories.  In addition, Acharya mentions that John the Baptist is actually Anup the Baptizer.  This individual is never mentioned anywhere in any Horus account.  There is not even a footnote in Archaya’s on-line work The Origins of Christianity to support this.  There is nothing. Since then she has refused querries from the atheist Richard Carrier to answer why she fabricated this claim.
   
   “He had 12 disciples”.
   
   Absolutely false. There are references to FOUR "disciples"--variously called the semi-divine HERU-SHEMSU, followers of Horus. There are references to SIXTEEN human followers . And there are references to an UNNUMBERED group of followers called mesniu/mesnitu ("blacksmiths") who accompanied Horus in some of his battles.
   
   “He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again”.
   
   Once again, I can find no references to Horus EVER dying, until he later becomes "merged" with Re the Sun god, after which he 'dies' and is 'reborn' every single day as the sun rises. And even in this 'death', there is no reference to a tomb anywhere...The massive difference between this metaphor of life/death, and the claims of the apostolic band about the real death and bodily resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth should illustrate a huge difference.
       
   claim: Horus performed miracles and rose one man from the dead called El-Azar-us.
   
   He never exorcised demons or raised his father from the dead. Also, Osiris is never referred to as ‘El-Azarus’ or ‘El-Osiris’ (clearly an attempt to make his name more closely resemble the Bible’s “Lazarus”). Sigh.
   
   claim: Horus walked on water.
   
   No, he did not.
   
   claim: His personal epithet was "Iusa," the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the "Father." He was thus called "Holy Child."
   
   Horus was never referred to as “Iusa” (nor was anyone in Egyptian history - the word does not exist) or “Holy Child”.
   
   claim: He delivered a "Sermon on the Mount" and his followers recounted the "Sayings of Iusa."
   
   Horus never delivered such a sermon, and, as pointed out above, he was never referred to as “Iusa”.
   
   claim: Horus was transfigured on the Mount.
   
   No, he was not.
   
   claim: He was crucified between two thieves, buried for three days in a tomb, and resurrected.
   
   Horus was never crucified. There’s an unofficial story in which he dies and is cast in pieces into the water, then later fished out by a crocodile at Isis’ request. This unofficial story is the only one in which he dies at all.
   
   claim: He was also the "Way, the Truth, the Light," "Messiah," "God’s Anointed Son," the "Son of Man," the "Good Shepherd," the "Lamb of God," the "Word made flesh," the "Word of Truth," etc.
   
   The only titles Horus is given are “Great God”, “Chief of the Powers”, “Master of Heaven”, and “Avenger of His Father”. None of the above titles are in any Egyptian mythology.
   
   claim:  He was "the Fisher" and was associated with the Fish ("Ichthys"), Lamb and Lion.
   
   He was never referred to as “the fisher”, and there are no lamb or lion in any of the stories.  Acharya S.'s footnotes on this claim only show an association with fish (which is that Horus WAS a fish, unlike Jesus), with no evidence of his being called 'the fisher' or having any association with a lamb or lion.
   
   claim: He came to fulfill the Law.
   
   There was no “law” he was supposed to fulfill.
   
   claim: Horus was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One."
   
   He was never referred to by either of these titles.  "Krst", in Egyptian, means "burial", by the way.  It wasn't a title.
   
   claim: Like Jesus, "Horus was supposed to reign one thousand years."
   
   No mention of this in Egyptian mythology.
   
   Recently, because of this trash floating around, twenty of the worlds leading Egyptologists issued statements denouncing these views as rubbish. The largest atheist site on the web (Infidels.org) gives a stern warning to fellow atheists should they try to claim these "similarities" as evidence, stating that they are fabrications, distortions, shoody research and out-right deceit.
   
   Wikipedia states concerning these claims that there was  "conducted a world-wide pole of twenty leading Egyptologists - including Professor Kenneth A. Kitchen of the University of Liverpool and Ron Leprohan, Professor of Egyptology at the University of Toronto- in Canada, USA, UK, Australia, Germany, and Austria to verify if there was any academic support for these claims. The scholars were unanimous in dismissing the claimed parallels."
   
   Yet Mark believes they are wrong.
   
   
   
   A few points about Acharya S.  Her actual name is D. Murdock. I am sure that Mark and others who take her “findings” as valid will love her other writings on UFO’s, giants, sky people who fly, enormous hairy beasts hundreds of feet tall, the use of atomic weapons thousands of years ago, ancient skeletons from pre-historic times that have bullet holes in them, and finally (amongst others) the belief that elves once wandered the earth (http://www.truthbeknown.com/mysteries.htm).
   How anyone can argue for similarities between Jesus and Horus is amazing to me.
   
   Now remember Mark, you claimed over half a dozen times that the 42 "similarities" are supported by evidence and that people "astound" you when they dont accept this. Knowing that you, the atheist, base your views on evidential criteria, I am looking forward to the evidence including the mentions supporting these claims from the historical text.
   
   Now, dont try to backtrack, try not to pitch some sort of fit and refuse to back up what you claim. Now remember, you claimed to be astounded that people do not believe these 42 similarities.
   
   Surely Mark you didnt support these 42 "similarities" because of a emotional tirade against Christianity now did you?

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   1. 0

      SirDentposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Very well done.

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   2. 73

      getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      You wrote all this to prove what?  That Christianity is, somehow a valid and true concept, because Jesus is only coincidentally similar to Horus?
      
      Sheer desperation!

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2. 69

   Pearldiverposted 13 years ago

   What an interesting haircut
   Were your ears lowered?

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   1. 70

      Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Are you sharing "your positive energy with readers worldwide" again?

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3. 58

   Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago

   I am indeed astounded at the aggression that people will defend their irrational beliefs - your aggresive attacks on me and accusations of taking my information from a Youtube movie are rather nasty - wouldn't you say? Or is that just the Christian love showing?
   
   Still - Rather than attempt to discuss 42 similarities in one post  - none of which you have refuted in any way other than to say "liar, liar pants on fire" I propose we deal with them one at a time.
   
   Like all myths - including the Jesus myth - there are many variations, so I suggest we deal with the virgin birth first as this would be an important similarity.
   
   You appear to accept that Horus was born of Isis, so here are some references to her virginity.
   
   "I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal Man hath ever me unveiled."
   
   http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta10.htm
   
   Her cult eventually died out with the spread of Christianity in the Sixth Centuary AD although many have argued that her worship survived in the Christian devotion to the "Virgin Mary".
   http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/isisgod.html
   
   In fact, the early Christians deferred some of her attributes to the Virgin Mary. As a loving and protective mother, Isis appealed to the Eastern peoples who were familiar with her cult. The images of Isis suckling the Horus child undoubtedly inspired the multitude of icons showing the Madonna and Child.
   
   http://www.egyptianmyths.net/isis.htm
   
   an Egyptian influence on the Christian church. Claiming that Isis, Mother of the God and Queen of Heaven, is the key to 'the thread that links out own rime to the distant past', he illustrates a Fate-18th-century fresco at Lindau-am-Bodensee of the Assumption of the Virgin with all the attributes of Isis, including the crescent moon.
   
   The Egyptian Revival: Ancient Egypt as the Inspiration for Design Motifs in the West. JAMES STEVENS CURL
   
   Certainly Isis as virgin and her transformation into the Virgin Mary at the time the Christian religion was murdering, killing and rewriting history to destroy any and all opposition was something I personally learned in school - church school.
   
   This is not something gleaned from a youtube video - and I do not see quite how you can deny this similarity.
   
   I see it bothers you that this is the case, but there are many many references to Isis the virgin and the "magical" birth of Horus.
   
   So - once you have proven that all these millions of references are - what? lies spread by atheists? - we can move on to the next similarity.
   
   Love the LOLOLO need for proof and evidences LOLOLOLO. This is a hearsay myth - the same as the story of baby Jesus is a hearsay myth - nothing more.
   
   You really think your ridiculous religion is a new story?
   
   http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Death-And-Rebirth-Of-A-God

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   1. 70

      Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Is this some sort of joke? I asked you to provide a list of modern scholars to back up your claims and you sent me this? I have to admit, this made me laugh for ten minutes solid. This is the worst "defense" I have ever encountered (and believe me, when you teach history/poli sci you see some horrible ones).
      
      First of all, let's see your statement: ""I, Isis, am all that has been, that is or shall be; no mortal Man hath ever me unveiled."
      
      That statement was attributed to Plutarch who claimed that in Sais a statue carried the inscription "I am all that has been, and is, and shall be, and my robe no mortal has yet uncovered."  At Sais, however, the patron goddess of its ancient cult was Neith, many of whose traits had begun to be attributed to Isis during the Greek occupation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis
      
      Mark once again, PLEASE do the research before opening your mouth.
      
      Lets take a look at your sources shall we?
      
      You quote a site known as "sacred text." The site is run by John Hare. He is no scholar, he is a computer programmer and has no degrees of any kind in anthropology, history, Egyptology, religion etc. He does make games though. Among the other articles that he has on his site are the abominable snowman (http://www.sacred-texts.com/lcr/abs/index.htm) as well as unicorns, freemasons, ufos and my personal favorite from that site: werewolves where he talks of his info being a "rationalist approach to werewolves." http://www.sacred-texts.com/goth/bow/index.htm LOL.
      
      Why he even sells tarot card coffee mugs! http://www.sacred-texts.com/cdshop/giftshop.htm
      Wow, what a academic!
      
      Lets take a look at your second source.
      ancientegyptonline: This site is run by Jenny Hill. Does she have a degree in any of these fields? Nope, not one. The site you quoted is a damn online jewelry shop. However Jenny claims that if you wear her jewelry you will have good luck, fertility and protection: http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/isisgod.html
      
      Wow Mark, she is quite the scholar eh? When are you ordering your lucky charm?
      
      Lets take a look at your third source (surely it could not get any worse right?): http://www.egyptianmyths.net/isis.htm
      
      Her name is April McDevitt and she refers to herself as a "all around site goddess." Hhhhmmm. Lets let her tell you in her own words her academic background: http://www.egyptianmyths.net/info.htm#author
      
      Yes, you read that correctly, the site is based on a project for her community college HTML class in early 1997. Wow.
      
      And now for your last source, an idividual known as "inspirepub" on our very own hubpages. Does she have a background or degree in athropology, history, religion, Egyptology, etc? No, not one. But this self-proclaimed witch does have some "fascinating" articles on Jedis, mind power, witchcraft, etc(http://hubpages.com/hub/The-Jedi-Religion). Sigh.
      
      So lets sum up. I presented dozens of leading Egyptologists with PHD's in their field, historians, Skeptic Magazine, leading PHD's in religious studies, etc.
      
      You presented
      1) A computer programmer who writes about Bigfoot and Werewolves, makes games, and sells tarot card coffee mugs.
      2) A woman who runs a jewelry shop.
      3) A woman who wrote a paper in community college for her HTML class.
      4) A self-proclaimed witch who likes to write about Jedis.
      
      Wow.
      This demonstrates how little validity is given to these similarities (as evident by what you had to dig up). You really had to scrape the bottom of the barrel here. From now on, you have no right whatsoever to question those Christians and the sources they use because I have not seen anything worse that what you have provided.
      
      I'm done here. This, like my title states, will be a good lesson learned about researching your sources. And remember Mark, just because a web site says something happened does not make it true (thank God you didn't run across sites on elves, why the earth is hollow or holocaust denial).

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4. 58

   Mark Knowlesposted 13 years ago

   Myths sweetheart. This is what you get - got any evidence for your myth? No - yet you reject mine as not being scholarly enough. hehehe -
   
   See what the Vatican sells? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. LOL at the copied "refutations" you could not and did not write for yourself.
   
   Oh? Wikipedia? In that case........ Dear me. Thanks for the lesson in cut and paste.
   
   caio - been awesome seeing you again. Sorry your beliefs have been demonstrated to have been taken from previous religions - and yes - shocked that you deny this.
   
   Still - at least you went to Wikipedia to cut and paste an argument against them which is more than most people do.
   
   Well done.

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   1. 70

      Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Mark, you got caught with your pants down. You stated you had evidence. Lets make this really simple ok?
      
      Do you go with the view of the leading scholars, egyptologists, historians, etc concerning your so called similarities?
      
      or do you go with your Jedi warrior, the jewelry maker and the paper for community college?
      
      tell me Mark, which one has more validity.
      
      So lets sum up. I presented dozens of leading Egyptologists with PHD's in their field, historians, Skeptic Magazine, leading PHD's in religious studies, etc.
      
      You presented
      1) A computer programmer who writes about Bigfoot and Werewolves, makes games, and sells tarot card coffee mugs.
      2) A woman who runs a jewelry shop.
      3) A woman who wrote a paper in community college for her HTML class.
      4) A self-proclaimed witch who likes to write about Jedis.

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      1. 58

         Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Say it again Dude. Wikipedia quotes you mean? LOLOLO
         
         Now - let us get back to the fact that I have evidence of the Isis/virgin birth myth.
         
         Admittedly, there are other versions - but - that does not negate the fact that they exist. I understand that your own preferred myth has several different versions.
         
         Nevertheless, a large amount of people - not scholars with a vested interest in protecting the Church - agree that this is one of the many myths around Horus/Isis and was the basis for the Jesus myth. And lest we forget the man hours/murders the Church put into destroying any evidence of this, plus the other various pieces of information buried to maintain the status quo? 
         
         So - sticking with the virgin birth:
         
         "[Isis] was the sacred embodiment of motherhood, yet was known as the Great Virgin, an apparent contradiction that will be familiar to Christians." Dr James Curl
         
         "I am the great virgin." (Isis) In a text in the Abydos Temple of Seti I
         
         "The research conducted by D.M. Murdock (Of Zeitgeist) concerning the myth of Jesus Christ is certainly both valuable and worthy of consideration." Ken Feder
         
         http://www.anthropology.ccsu.edu/facult … Feder.html
         
         "we assert that Christianity constitutes Gnosticism historicized and Judaized, likewise representing a synthesis of Egyptian, Jewish and Greek religion and mythology"Dr. Robert M. Price
         http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/ … _egypt.htm
         http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/bio.htm
         
         No pants down here sunshine. And any time you want to conjure up some evidence for your ridiculous beliefs I am all ears.
         
         Remember - Just because you found a few people that believe something - doesn't make it true.
         
         Shocked you deny these obvious similarities in the two stories. I was taught this as a child - and you attack knowledge because it doesn't follow church dogma. Still - I bet wikipedia can provide some cut and paste attacks on these people huh? Lot of Xtians like changing wikipedia.
         
         They even found Noah's Ark recently proving evolution is a lie.
         
         Must admit - I am more inclined to trust a self proclaimed witch than a "scholar" paid for by the Vatican. Call me cynical if you will........

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         1. 70

            Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            "Admittedly, there are other versions..."
            
            Now that wasnt so hard now Mark? You are finally getting the point and while I appreciate your honesty about you believing self-proclaimed witches over scholars I think my point is made here.
            
            There is a danger when you glean info from Youtube videos, this correspondence has certainly show this to be true as you clearly struggled with separating fact from fiction.
            
            So in ending this debate, remember to do the research when supporting a claim. Just because some guy sells tarot card coffee mugs or because some woman sells jewelry and another is an expert on Jedis does not make them scholars in the field of Egyptology.
            
            I'm done with the subject.

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            1. 58

               Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               No - you are not done with anything. I still am shocked that you deny there are similarities and attack the possibility of learning anything to defend your irrational beliefs.  I do not get my information from you tube videos.
               
               I do find it extremely funny that a religionist asks for research. LOLOLOL
               
               Really, really funny. Dear me.
               
               Now - you think you are man enough to admit that a) there are similarities that are hard to ignore between the two myths and b) there are other versions of your ridiculous religion?

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5. 72

   Rishy Richposted 13 years ago

   Allan, I see u love to quote from wiki a lot. Lets play it ur way
   
   Go to this wiki link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis#Origin_of_the_name
   
   Then at the bottom of the page you will see a list of titles that were given to Isis. One of the title is: "Star of the Sea" Click that title...Bingo! What do u see? Your wiki says: "Star of the Sea" is a symbolic title of Virgin Mary 

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   1. 72

      Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      In case u lose faith on wiki, heres a complete list of the names of Isis meri from this egyptian non zeitgeist source: http://www.egyptancient.net/isidenames.htm
      
      Dont forget to look in the middle for this:
      
      Meri- Isis as the goddess of the sea

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      1. 70

         Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Sweet mother of pearl! Do you ever pay attention to what you are using as a source? This site is NOT Egyptian (no matter how much you want to believe it to be so). It is another damn jewelry shop from the UK: http://www.egyptiandreams.co.uk/index.p … anner_id=4
         
         Rishy, listen...pay attention to what you are using.

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            Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            I guess u think the whole UK is against Jesus' historicity & I would love to see the comment on that wiki link. Since u prefer wiki so much

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            1. 70

               Allan Bogleposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               What are you talkng about? Yes we both referenced wiki once (as if that means anything).
               
               You on the other hand, to try to prove your point, actually had to stoop to quoting a jewelry shop that sells "lucky charms."  Not only that you could not even distinguish what you were reading by bizarrely claiming that the site was Egyptian.
               
               Amazing.
               
               Then you try to connect the UK to claims about Christ. Your post was about Isis. Are you paying attention to what you are typing?

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                  Rishy Richposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Are u paying attention to what I am asking? Skipping points doesnt make u smart, it just makes u a Hypocrite, nothing else!

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   LeanManposted 13 years ago

   WOW... is this a hub I just read or am I still in the forum??
   
   Oh well makes a change from muslim bashing....

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      Cagsilposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      

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7. 81

   mega1posted 13 years ago

   I don't understand why you guys don't just smoke opium!  It would be so much faster and easier, and then you wouldn't be so sure that we all care about all this mythology crap!

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   1. 80

      LeanManposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Isn't it opium that those nasty Muslim terrorists are farming in Afghanistan.. Are you suggesting that they should support them.... hehehehehe

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