Is God omniscient?

1. 76

   wildernessposted 15 years ago

   Spefically, does God know all the details of the future?  Could He, if He wished, write a book detailing every action of my unborn child from conception to final judgement?  The implications for free will seem enormous.

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes god is omniscient, all knowledge, he is beyond time.

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      1. 76

         wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         The inescapable corollary of that is that my future is laid out already and my final disposition is set.  Nothing I can do will change any of that; I may as well become a hedonist and do as I please.  I do not find the concept pleasing; I prefer to think that my decisions make a difference.

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            mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            You are thinking with time,past,present and future. God is beyond time so all is now.We are like puppets playing out our part.

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      2. 50

         paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Hi friends
         
         I agree with our friend mohitmisra, time is the Creation of the Creator-God Allah YHWH; He is not bound by Time; Time is bound by Him. He knows everything of the past, present and future. Since He is not only Omniscient- All Knowing; He is also Omnipresent- He is present everywhere with his attributes and commands; it is for this that we say the the Creator-God Allah YHWH is sufficient for His testimony; if He witnesses something, then witnessing of anybody else is just no needed, it is superficial.
         
         I express my faith with reasons; others are free to believe whatever they want but with reasons.
         
         Thanks
         
         I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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         1. 76

            wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            How do you then reconcile your lack of free will with God's eventual judgement of your actions?  The same actions that you cannot change as God has predtermined what those actions will be?
            
            As Mohitmisra points out you are nothing more nor less than a puppet with God pulling the strings and forcing each and every decision that you make, yet those same decisions that God makes for you will be the basis of God's judgement of you.

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               paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Hi friends
               
               Humans being knowingly or often unknowingly tend to be on extremes; if one thinks positively it is not difficult to know the "NORM" or the "EXCELLENCE". Man is not like a stone or a tree; we could move about at our will; that will is the cost of our life.
               
               Thanks
               
               I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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               1. 76

                  wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Thinking positively does not change facts.  If you accept as fact that God has decided the future for you, as you indicate to be true, then you may NOT move about at your will; you may only move about as God says you already did.
                  
                  Only if you define "NORM" and "EXCELLENCE" to be whatever you want at the moment to be true does your sentence make any sense.

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               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Man is god at the same time, his higher or inner self is god.

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                  paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi friend mohitmisra
                  
                  I don't agree with you; one of the attributes of the Creator-God Allah YHWH is that he created heaven and earth from nothing. If you are a god being a man as stated by you; which planet have you created. Even Jesus could not create any new planet whom Christians make a god.
                  
                  Thanks
                  
                  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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                     pisean282311posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     hey paar , how r u doing man?

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                        paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Hi friend
                        
                        I am OK and in good health. How are you and your family and friends. May God bless you!
                        
                        Thanks
                        
                        I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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   2. 59

      qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If this is a "serious question, pls, "Factually" define this god thing you mention so that I can consider your question..OK?
      NO opinions now!
      If you can't do that for me, how can anyone take you to be a credible "hubber" in ref to the subject of your question?
      There would be no reason to offer an "intellectual" response.

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         mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Its an intelligent question.

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      2. 76

         wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         And I will even answer.  "God thing" definition in the context of my inquiry: any belief in a supernatural, omniscient being OR any other belief requiring predestination and/or a fixed, immutable future.

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         1. 59

            qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Ty Wilderness:
            I said no opinions..right?
            The "supernatural" is but an "opinion."
            Isn't an "omniscient being" an opinion?
            Predestination? Isn't that just an opinion?
            ...and "immutable?" ...just an opinion...correct?
            Wilderness, all that you have offered is naught but opinion.
            Didn't I ask for a definition based on "fact?"
            Respectfully, I cannot think of you as being a "credible" hubber" ref this god thing if all you can offer is "opinion."
            Thanks for trying.   :-)

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               Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               You're unbelievable.

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                  qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Cags:
                  ...but right on the money!   :-)

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               2. 76

                  wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Nah, just mean

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                     Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     No, that's just Qwark.

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            2. 76

               wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Ah, but definitions are not facts.  For instance, the color red may be defined as the wavelength of light in the upper 600 nm range but all we have done is named those wavelengths.  We could have named it rouge, or roux or even rosso.
               
               The name of the supernatural, omniscient being under consideration could be "God" or "Allah" or "Jehovah" or "Yahweh".  The definition of each might be "the main character in a spiritual belief system".  Whether or not that belief system has any factual relation to our world is immaterial; the "God" referenced remains the same.
               
               Similarly, I assume you understand the English definition of "fixed", "predestination"  and "immutable"; if not, google.
               
               In any case, the main consideration in the OP was, and is, discussion of the concept of free will in connection to these now defined concepts.  Note that none of these concepts necessarily have any "factual" basis when used in conjunction with time, as I am.  That would be part of the discussion.
               
               Did I do good?

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                  mrpopoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I think what qwark meant is that you're talking about a belief as opposed to a fact.

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                     wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Of course it is.    Nevertheless, he asked for a definition of God and has received one.  Nowhere did he ask for proof of the existence (which is what I assume he really meant), just the definition and that's what I gave.

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               2. 59

                  qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Wilderness:
                  lol...dancing around the barn? You dance well..:-)
                  If you had an answer for me, that factually defined this god thing you mention, there would be no need for the "dancing." You would offer it with confidence and that would end my concern.
                  All that you offered in your "explanation" of what this god thing is, were opinions.
                  Then you try to offer a trite explanation of what? Evidently nothing.
                  I appreciate your try...:-)
                  
                  ...but I can't accept you as being credible about this god thing you mention...:-)

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                     wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Come now, quark - I gave you a precise definition, just as you requested.  "The main character in a spiritual belief system" would seem to answer your request to  "define this god thing you mention".  You may replace the word spiritual with "religious" if it helps.  You did not request that I supply you with any physical characteristics, attributes or capabilities which was a good thing as that is what I was asking YOU for (omniscience).

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                        qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Wilderness:
                        ...:-)
                        Nice try!  :-)
                        My decision holds.
                        Just being blunt, honest ME!  :-)

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                        1. 76

                           wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           And that's OK - I don't know either.  I just believe what I want to believe with no evidence whatsoever  because it keeps me happy.  At least for now - real evidence, or even a well thought out theory, concerning a fixed future could change my mind.

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                              qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              Wilderness:
                              Thanks!
                              Your response was civil and honest....much appreciated!  Handshake and shoulder bump.   :-)

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                              1. 76

                                 wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 And right back at ya.  Enjoyed the discourse. 

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   3. 61

      angel115707posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      whats even stranger, is despite God being who he is, "I AM" he lets go, and really enjoys the freedom of our complacency and stupidity...he lets us choose...sadly we fail as selfish and low as we may be...one out of 100 or so attempt to be real with God or ourselves...

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         Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Speak for yourself please and do not put words into other people's mouth. I'm sure you wouldn't like if it was done to you.
         
         You want to speak about "I AM", the stop talking about god. And, understand "I AM" as it is suppose to be.

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   4. 59

      Disappearingheadposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Very good question, and here's my twopennorth.
      
      Suppose God knows that you will have cornflakes for breakfast tomorrow, wrote it down, then showed you today. You may be absolutely determined today that tomorrow you will have wheatabix instead. Now tomorrow comes and it's decision time. You remember that yesterday, God said you would choose cornflakes, but you were adamant you would pick  wheatabix instead. You go to the cupboard, reach out your hand, and right at the last moment either:
      1) No wheatabix left
      2) Suddenly, you just really fancy cornflakes after all.
      
      The point is, just because God knows what decisions you will make as He knows the end form the beginning, whatever choices in life you make, it is you that makes them. Albeit, your choices will always be limited by circumstance, and your chain of thought processes leading up to that descision.
      
      Yes you have free will.

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      1. 76

         wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I simply cannot equate "free will" with the inability to make any choices that are not already "made" by God, or anything else.  Whatever the actual process, I chose cornflakes instead of wheatabix because I could not choose anything else.  If I cannot choose otherwise, then I have no free will in the matter.
         
         To say that I chose cornflakes instead of wheatabix (or maybe nothing at all) is just begging the question - the bottom line is that I CANNOT choose anything else.  I MUST choose cornflakes.  That isn't a choice at all!

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            Disappearingheadposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I could ask my kids whether thay wanted cornflakes or wheatabix, but just because I know what they will choose (in my case based on past knowlege of previous choices) it doesn't mean that they are not free to choose.
            
            But no wheatabix left will mean that their free choice is limited. Circumstance constrains our free will.
            
            Now you may argue that if God is in control of everyone's environment and situations, then He could limit our circumstances to such a degree that we will make the choice that He ultimately wanted us to make.

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               wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Of course our free will IS limited by circumstances - as much as I would like to I cannot flap my arms and fly to the moon.  But if I understand you correctly, God has indeed limited our every "choice" to only one option in every case in our life.  I go to the same workplace every day, with several available routes, but I cannot choose which route to take as God has already decided and arranged circumstances so that I have no true choice - only the appearance of one. 
               
               If this is indeed the case then my final disposition is to based solely on what God decided for me to do.  He has limited my every action throughout my life and thereby preordained my ultimate fate of heaven or hell.  Even if He did not force the choices, that fate is still preordained and I cannot affect it.

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                  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  God is within man, so its your decision and no one else's.

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               (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Nonsense, no parents give their children a choice what to believe, children are indoctrinated into their parents religion without any other choice made available to them.

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                  pisean282311posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  not totally...few turnout out not believing in what their parents do...but in most cases you are right..

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                     (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Sure, there's always exceptions to the rule, but when you have a group of a couple of billion people, the odd one here and there is a mere drop in the bucket. Overall, the only reason Christianity or any other religion survives is due to childhood indoctrination.

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                  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  My parents gave me the choice.I grew up as an atheist and then gained enlightenment and have become a poet spreading god knowledge.
                  
                  Many humans have a mind of their own

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                     (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     Sorry bud, but your track record here makes me suspect that isn't true.

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                        mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        ???

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      2. 73

         mrpopoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         But then "choice" becomes an inevitable event as opposed to an option.

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         1. 76

            wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Well put - what I tried to say and you said it much clearer.

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               mrpopoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks, but you did a fine job yourself in your elaborations

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   5. 68

      PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If I possess a video of superbowl xiii where I see Terry Bradshaw win MVP and the Steelers win the game and I know the outcome , even if I had a space craft that left the universe and somehow went back in time before the game , yet I knew the final score etc etc etc.
      
      How would that knowledge I possess change the calls made or the decisions or actions of any of the players , coaches or fans?
      
      Or change the outcome? Their freewill remains intact despite my non linear perspective.
      
      No amount of freewill will change your past. So you have no freewill in regards to past events.The future is a concept that never arrives, no freewill there either.
      
      A human being cant choose to be born nor can he change his mind after he jumps from the ledge of a building ,deterministically speaking.
      
      The only freewill choice you truly have is what you choose to believe. Be it good or evil , light or dark , God or nought.

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         paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Hi friends
         
         One should try to be on the NORM or EXCELLENCE; not to be on the extremes.
         
         Thanks
         
         I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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            Twenty One Daysposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            norm and excellent are self indulgent human necessities, as are extremes. All incomplete, all fruitless with respect to Choice, Free Will and certainly Creator/creation. Why are humans so inept to the simple fundamentals of creation, always in opposition to it?

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         wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Your football game - that is indeed my question.  Predestination might not only come from God, but from other means or processes.
         
         I disagree with your conclusion, however.  If you have gone back in time to watch the game with full knowledge of its outcome, then it is preordained and no player may make any choice but the one you remember from their future.  They have no free will and may make only one "choice" in every action.  Your foreknowledge not only cannot change anything, it locks into place all actions.  You are, in effect, watching a recording of what happened even if the players do not recognize that.  I disregard, of course, the popular science fiction paradoxes of time travel - they are not pertinent here.
         
         To say the future never arrives is mere semantics; it is just as true to say that tomorrow, June 5 2010 is the future (it is as I write this) and it surely WILL arrive whether I witness it or not.

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            PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            You wrote :They have no free will and may make only one "choice" in every action.  Your foreknowledge not only cannot change anything, it locks into place all actions.
            
            
            Where do I start? You admit that "Your foreknowledge not only cannot change anything" yet contradict that in saying that my knowledge locks all of reality for that time period? And Im assuming after the game my lack of knowledge suddenly allows everyone freewill ? That doesn't follow or affirming the consequent or some fallacy somewhere.
            
            Perhaps I can elucidate. You cannot change a choice you already made.
            
            If you flip a coin and guess heads and it comes up tails , you cant claim "I have no  freewill because I cant go back and choose differently. My choice is locked." The same example applies. They made their choices in my present, past or future regardless of my foreknowledge . If a bystander had "current knowledge" during the flip" in that he was able to catch sight of the fact that the coin was "tails on both sides" or even knew it beforehand , ie his knowledge still doesnt change your ability to choose either or . Even though it was rigged still doesnt change the fact you chose, but most importantly you cannot choose something differently by suspending reality.
            
            You chose . That was it . Bystander information changes nada

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               PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               PS:
               
               And this kinda comes back to what I was alluding to.
               
               I dont think that human beings freewill is :"rigged or fixed" or even negated by predestination.
               
               Its reality and time that "are fixed" . Freewill has to acquiesce to time. Time and reality have freewill , we're just along for the ride
               
               I enjoy this topic

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               1. 76

                  wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  We MAY be on the same page.  I made certain assumptions in my reply:
                  1.  The past is fixed and cannot be changed.  The lines are already written on the record of time, unchangeable without destroying the record.
                  
                  2.  The "now" is the same for everyone.  Time marches at the same rate and your past is also my past. 
                  
                  When you traveled into your past to view the game, you were also in the players past, and therefore it cannot be changed.  Nor can the period between the game and your original "now".  Thus the players HAD free will at the time of the game, but that time is now the past and they no longer have that free will.  It is not actually your knowledge of the past that makes unchangeable; it is the fact that it IS the past, not the "now".  The players are not actually playing the game as you watch - you are watching only a "recording".
                  
                  Time travel and its results can be fun to talk about, but certainly the english language is not set up to do so.  Too many different possibilities, concepts and paradoxes that the language does not address.

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         2. 73

            mrpopoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Although if you see the future, you can change it. Watch Minority Report

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            1. 76

               wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I a little foggy about Minority Report (not much of a TV fan) but I would reply that you cannot see the future - it has not happened.  At best you might see a near infinity of possibilities, albeit with varying probabilities.

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                  mrpopoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I know, I meant hypothetically XD

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      nikki1posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Friendly reminder, God is immortal. He created the earth, us by creating Adam in his image. He knows all. He is kind of like a dad to over a billion people. However, the best part about God is when you ask for forgiveness he does and we then forgive ourselves. And, move on..

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         Cagsilposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         

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            nikki1posted 15 years agoin reply to this

            

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         (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Why would a dad not feed his children and allow them to starve to death when all he has to do is wave his magic hand and *poof* all the food those children could possibly eat would easily be made available to them?
         
         But, no. Let them starve and die, says dad.

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            PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            nikki1 wrote:
            
                He is kind of like a dad to over a billion people. 
            
            
            
            
              (Q):
            
              Why would a dad not feed his children and allow them to starve to death when all he has to do is wave his magic hand and *poof* all the food those children could possibly eat would easily be made available to them?
            
            But, no. Let them starve and die, says dad.
            
            
            Phoenix:
            
            Why not have God just make babies out of titanium. Where they never have to eat or cry ?
            
            Why stop there? Lets have God remove the emotion Love. It causes some of the deepest despair,grief, even pain .Especially when contrasted with the deepest fulfillment it can bring. Maybe just have God "smooth out the highs and lows "?
            
            1 No mother will want a titanium baby
            
            2 Where does my life begin and Gods intervention end?

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               wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               According to about 1/3 of the respondents here, Gods intervention is total and begins before conception.  Another 1/3 indicates no intervention at all.  (The final 1/3 I can't decipher).  Pick your own belief.
               
               On a separate note, not sure I'd want to hit on a titanium chick............

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               (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I have no idea what you're saying? Do you have a point?

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                  wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Not much of one, although I do find it interesting that it seems that 100% of those respondents favoring God's total intervention also indicate we have free will........
                  
                  And after 24 hours though I still wouldn't hit on a titanium chick

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   7. 0

      zampanoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Yes. By design.

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         nikki1posted 15 years agoin reply to this

         YEs he does know the future. He created the future. Again, he is immortal. He created all life for and etc. He also fought for our lives from Satan. And, his son did the same thing. All we need to do is believe in him. Which I for one does. And, thank him for it.

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         wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Odd concept - an unknown designer designed God and his abilities to include omniscience so that He can then design and build man, then condemn or reward man based on God's design of man's actions.
         
         Or have I mis-read your post?

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            zampanoposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            The designer is far from unknown.
            It's you and me.
            
            Shiva has about the same role as "our" omniscient god.
            Look at all the arms. Ain't that design ?
            And the fact that men create gods as they please is freewill.
            All is explained now.

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               wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                 Second time around I got it!  Must be dense today.

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               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               The arms are symbolic.

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   mrpopoposted 15 years ago

   If he is, we don't have free will.
   
   If he isn't, then maybe we do

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   Cagsilposted 15 years ago

   Depends on who ask.

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   fifacrzyposted 15 years ago

   Ya, you are right, god being omniscient  contradicts with the free will of humans. God not being omniscient contradicts with the existence of God in a way.  All the religions are based on the fact that God is omniscient but the existence of this world was still dependent on the free will of Adam.

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      qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      lolol...Fifa, do you really believed that?
      If you say yes, pls tell me why. ty

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         fifacrzyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         you mean the Adam part?

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      mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      IT doesn't really contradicts if one knows God .
      "I was searching for myself and I found god, I was searching for god and I found myself " Buddhist saying

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5. 62

   luvpassionposted 15 years ago

   Dr. Gregory Boyd, in his book, God of the Possible, makes a well reasoned, Scripturally-based case for a God Who does not completely know the future -- not because God is deficient but because the future does not exist.
   
   He appeals to his harshest critics to not consider this position heretical and to his followers to glory in a God Who is vulnerable although omnipotent. Thus he can counsel a young woman whose dreams of missionary service were shattered by unfaithfulness of the husband she sincerely believed was given to her by God, that God is not to blame because He didn’t know. And when accepting his premises, Dr. Boyd’s logic seems irrefutable.
   
   Yet there are indeed flaws in the case, the first of which is the recurrent assertion that God’s foreknowledge means control – that if God knows the future, it is therefore fixed and we have no freedom to change it.
   
   Even as an untrained philosopher I know that this has been a conundrum down the through the ages. Yet I think there is an answer. If God created all that is, He also created time and exists outside of time in eternity. Eternity is not locked to time and God is not limited to time just as God created space and is not limited to it.
   
   Thus God created us with true free will, existing in time, making decisions with real consequences, being influenced by the warnings and promises that God gives us as He invades time and space. With all that happening and our free wills operating within the boundaries that the real world gives us, God still sees the future results of those decisions.

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      (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Notice that by making the assumption that your god exists, anything is possible. Unfortunately, in order for an argument to be "well reasoned" one must make the assumption your god needs to be demonstrated to exist, first.
      
      Then, and only then can one create well reasoned arguments.

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         luvpassionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         When you close your mind you essentially become stubborn and become a victim of the ego mind - you end up having an attitude that goes something like this:
         
         "This is what I want and I want it now. I'm not willing to try or accept anything else." "I don't consider your beliefs important." "I know everything already so don't give any of your views."
         
         This kind of attitude shuts you off from the process of life and nature - which is about growing and experiencing new possibilities.
         
         Think about how many times you were resistant to trying something new only to eventually give in and discover that you really enjoyed the process?
         
         I'm sure it's happened countless times. Kids are a perfect example. At first they are resistant to trying new things and then when they do - their whole attitude changes.
         
         When you close your mind and become stubborn you essentially tell yourself, your higher self, and the natural forces of the universe that you're not willing to go the extra mile - that you're not willing to grow and experience new things, entertain new ideas.
         
         If you are not willing to grow, experience new things, be considerate of other peoples views and ideas and instead choose to be stubborn or closed minded then there can be no change and no progress in life and things will never improve - it's that simple.
         
         Teri

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            PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            wonderful words

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            (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you for describing and defining the believers mindset.

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         PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Notice that by making the assumption that your god exists, anything is possible. Unfortunately, in order for an argument to be "well reasoned" one must make the assumption your god needs to be demonstrated to exist, first.
         
         Then, and only then can one create well reasoned arguments.
         
         
         
         Exist ? You mean like "you existed " 15 billion years ago ? Exist like that ?  Exist like you will exist 15 billion years in the future ?
         
         I would hope that God doesnt "exist" like that . Judging from a reasonable conclusion I would claim that it is you that seem "existence challenged"
         
         Furthermore, without some sort of "divine spark" arent you just a deterministic biological machine thats organic electrochemical synapses are just "feeding back " and giving you the "illusion of self awareness "?
         You might wanna check your "own existence before ya wreck it "

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            (Q)posted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Just curious, are you trying to make a point here? What is it, exactly?

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      wildernessposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      If I may provide an analogy of what you have described:
      Our actions and decisions are as a path through the hills and valleys, the turns and branches of life, extending behind and ahead of us.  The path behind is fixed and immovable while the path ahead is in constant motion.  It twists and turns, rises and falls, connecting and disconnecting, changing and moving with every choice and decision we make.  Only as the "now" becomes the "future" does it get nailed down to a fixed position.
      
      God has chosen, either by His original design or by conscious, continuous decision, not to make the future side of the path immobile.  He is not omniscient although He can watch the path move and see possible results of choices made in the "now".  We have free will.
      
      A well thought out possible solution to the conundrum you mention; perhaps the paradox is not so paradoxical after all.  Whether this possibility was your own creation or you found it from someone else, you have reasoned through it, probably through the chains of prior teachings, and found it to be a reasonable alternative to the paradox.  My thanks and congratulations.

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         luvpassionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Exactly wilderness you, "Hit the nail on the head," as they say.
         
         It is possible that for us human beings, locked in time and yet free to change, that if we were told the future, we would try to alter it.
         
         If we were told by God that doing A would cause B to happen and by doing Y, Z would happen, we might have any number of possible responses to those options.  But the future results of those free choices might already be known by God who looks down on the whole span of time from eternity.
         
         This theory is interesting but only a theory.

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   qwarkposted 15 years ago

   What's all this "garble" about "free will?'
   It is not mentioned in any scripture.
   Are ya'll just guessing again?
   Defining scripture to meet your needs... as about 40,000 other protestant "cults" do?
   Are ya'll nuts?
   Of course y'are!

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      PhoenixVposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Your statements make "baby richard dawkins" cry

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      luvpassionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I made no reference to any scripture concerning "free will" sir. I just naturally assumed you know you have it.
      
      Sorry

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         qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Luv:
         ...and you'd be right.
         My reference is in response to those who entertain the thought that this god thing gifted man with free will. That thought can only be imagined. It is not mentioned in ANY montheistic scripture.
         I hope that I cleared that up.....:-)

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            paarsurreyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Hi friends
            
            Quran mentions it:
            
            [18:28] And recite what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.
            [18:29] And keep thyself attached to those who call on their Lord, morning and evening, seeking His pleasure; and let not thy eyes pass beyond them, seeking the adornment of the life of the world; and obey not him whose heart We have made heedless of Our remembrance and who follows his evil inclinations, and his case exceeds all bounds.
            [18:30] And say, ‘It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve.’ Verily, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose flaming canopy shall enclose them. And if they cry for help, they will be helped with water like molten lead which will burn the faces. How dreadful the drink, and how evil is the Fire as a resting place!
            [18:31] Verily, those who believe and do good works — surely, We suffer not the reward of those who do good works to be lost. [18:32] It is these who will have Gardens of Eternity beneath which streams shall flow. They will be adorned therein with bracelets of gold and will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, reclining therein upon raised couches. How good the reward and how excellent the place of rest!
            
            http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=25
            
            Please see verse[18:30] with the verses in the context; man is free to do anything good but is responsible and accountable for doing wrongs.
            
            Thanks
            
            I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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            luvpassionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            The passage you indicated doesn't say God gave man free (specifically) only what will be the result of having it.

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               qwarkposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               luv:
               I mentioned no passage?
               I never offer scripture. That would be foolishness.
               There is no scripture that is credible.
               I don't waste my time with it.

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                  luvpassionposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  I was refering to Mr. Ahmadi's post.

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   paarsurreyposted 15 years ago

   Is God omniscient?
   
   Hi friends
   
   Coming to the topic; Quran mentions of the Creator-God Allah YHWH being All-Knowing in many a occasions, I give from one such place:
   
   [6:80] ‘I have turned my face toward Him Who created the heavens and the earth, being ever inclined to God, and I am not of those who associate gods with God.’
   [6:81] And his people argued with him. He said: ‘Do you argue with me concerning Allah when He has guided me aright? And I fear not that which you associate with Him, unless my Lord will something. My Lord comprehends all things in His knowledge. Will you not then be admonished?
   [6:82] ‘And why should I fear that which you associate with God, when you fear not to associate with Allah that for which He has sent down to you no authority?’ Which, then, of the two parties has greater right to security, if indeed you know? [6:83] Those who believe and mix not up their belief with injustice — it is they who shall have peace, and who are rightly guided.
   [6:84] And that is Our argument which We gave to Abraham against his people. We exalt in degrees of rank whomso We please. Thy Lord is indeed Wise, All-Knowing.
   [6:85] And We gave him Isaac and Jacob; each did We guide aright, and Noah did We guide aright aforetime, and of his progeny, David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron. Thus do We reward those who do good.
   [6:86] And We guided Zachariah and John and Jesus and Elias; each one of them was of the virtuous.
   
   http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/sh … p;verse=77
   
   Please see verse[6:84] with the verses in the context; the Creator-God Allah YHWH is Wise and All-Knowing.
   
   Thanks
   
   I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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   probafixposted 15 years ago

   Yes god is all knowing

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