Why do many make the plan of salvation so incredibly complicated?
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago
0The plan of salvation is not complicated at all. Why do so many make it this way when it is so simple. Accept Jesus into your heart, truly believe he died on the cross for your sins, and confess your sins with your mouth. Then strive to live a life that is pleasing to God. Notice I said "strive" because in this old flesh we will continue to sin. It is our souls that are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ.
JT, my apologies as their is no way for me to answer this without sounding like I am insulting a group of people. Some of us make it so "complicated" because it feels stupid to simply accept this line of thought. Even if I did believe in a God there is no way I would believe that Jesus was his son. It simply makes no sense. It's not really a matter of complication but a matter of what I am willing to put my faith in, and I'm not willing to put my faith in the concept of Jesus Christ being the son of God. Maybe one day I will accept a God, but there is nothing simple about any of it unless it isn't being thought through.
They are confused and/or unable to fathom the direct truth.
Add to that fact that some of them just love dragging people into drama drama drama, and ya have the complications.What are the complexities you think people are adding?
It is this simple: Accept Jesus into your heart, confess your sins, live a life that is pleasing to God. That is simple
The others that have commented are the one's adding complexities. We must do this, we must do that. Confess our sins to a man (Priest) Any Christian does not need a go between to talk straight to God. This ic called prayer.
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
Hi peeples, I understand where you stand and I respect that. This question is mainly for believers who make it so complicated. Have a great day!!
Maybe it has to do with the fact that religion has evolved into so many denominations. My mother is old school Pentecostal, my older brother is a Jehovah's Witness. They are constantly in a battle about which path is the right one to salvation.
Pain of Salvation are "incredibly complicated" because they're progressive metal, and so shifting time signatures and incorporating different genres and movements is just part of the package...
...I have a feeling that's not what this thread is about.Possibly because some, for whatever reason, people claim that it is complex and spread the lie.
John 3:16 set its out very plainly, that if you believe in God you are saved. So does John 5:24. There is no mention whatsoever of confessing sins, either mentally OR by mouth, no mention of how you should live your life or anything else. Just that you must believe.
Still, lots of people run around declaring that you must confess, that you must live a life that they find acceptable and in agreement with their personal interpret the bible. Why? Who really knows - perhaps it's just more "control everyone in sight" by the church - part of that lifestyle always includes giving gold to the church. Or an effort to be somehow "better" than others - "I confess to my priest, you don't, so I'm better than your are and will go to heaven while you go to hell".
Who can really tell what is in the mind, the purpose, of biblical interpretations that are far from what was actually said?- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
Wilderness... Sorry you are so bitter. Where does this come from?
Bitter? No, but sad and disgusted, yes. Even some small amount of anger at the more egregious actions of some.
Probably from a lifelong barrage of people pushing their personal religious interpretations as the only way to God.
So can you answer your own question? Why are you telling people it is far more complex than it really is?
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
Wilderness...... You must read the question again. I stated that so many make it so complex, when it is actually simple. As you have mentioned, John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
This indeed says it all. But, it takes much more than belief. We also must accept Jesus into our hearts humbly, confess with our mouths our sins. Is this complicated? And, of course we become a new person who will strive to please God for what he has done for us."This indeed says it all. But, it takes much more than belief."
Let me rephrase for you: "It says it all. But it isn't all; my interpretation is more important than what the bible says, and I wish to add confession and living the lifestyle I believe is correct to the requirements listed in the bible".
You even quote the passage, while declaring that according to you it is incorrect and more complexity must be added.
And yes, it is very complicated. Another person must now listen to what you have to say, decide whether you are right or the bible is right and then make a choice between the two. If your words and instructions are chosen over those of the bible, that person must then listen and understand who they must speak to with their confession (certainly not God - He already knows your transgressions AND whether you regret them). He must understand what you consider a "life that is pleasing to God" before he can strive to live it, and he must then change what he is into something else.
"Believe" is simple; "confess with verbal speech, strive to please God (according to what you think He wants), become a new person (something we aren't now); none of that is simple. It is complex, it is difficult and it is very plainly not according to scripture.
So, once more, what might the reason be that you make a simple thing so much more complex? Will you look inside yourself and answer your own question?Yes, that is complicated. It would require I give up all reason and rationale, forget everything I ever learned about the world around me, trade reality for fantasy, deny and reject facts and evidence to make way for the acceptance of mystery and magic and to emanate a god that is a selfish and petty despot.
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
Yet again wilderness you have made something so simple (If called by the holy spirit) so complex. If one is called by the Holy spirit, all of this will come naturally. Someone will won't to be a new person and strive to please the Father. If one has never experienced this, then it is impossible to understand.
And the verbal confession? Believing in God will automatically cause someone to find it necessary to tell other people how they have transgressed against God's will?
Nonsense - a belief in God isn't going to make everyone change into what you think they should be, or even try to be what you think they should be. It certainly isn't going to make them think they are required to confess their sins to someone else in order to gain salvation.
It is you making these rules, not God. Very few people find a need to confess their sins to others, yet you have plainly said it is necessary for salvation.
It never ceases to amaze (and sadden) me when people have such a deep seated belief in their own sense of being "right" that will deny it even as they keep insisting on it. You have made plain indication that the words of John are lies three times now, even as you try to weasel out of it by claiming it will come naturally. Doesn't work. The scripture says what it says and not what you want it to say or even what you think it should say. Open your eyes and mind, read it and accept it rather than make up your own rules.I don't really find all of this so incredibly simple either : why should one person be called by the Holy Spirit and another not?
More to the point : why should one person be born into wealth and privilege and another into poverty and starvation with no real hope of a life, never mind a calling... Is that part of a Greater Plan?
I think that religious people can be very fine and upstanding but there is a danger when they become absolutely convinced of their own interpretation of that religion and that everyone who disagrees is wrong.
Also, it seems that people can take particular quotes out of the Bible to try to justify almost any action they can conceive of...
Let's not forget that almost all wars are started over religion or indeed that there once was a certain man called Jesus Christ who had plenty of run-ins with the elders of the Church at that time... with everything that they said and represented.
So you shouldn't be so sure that you have all the answers now.
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
@Wilderness.... I'm not trying to "weasel" out of anything. The bible does not state as you have said that belief is enough. The devil and the demons in hell believe. No, we must accept Christ. It is that simple.
JT I believe Jesus, that he was a sacrifice for sin, and I confess sin to my Father. However, this is not good enough for you or all the other right wing evangelicals or Catholics. You want to add more strings about how people live their lives, or other matters of doctrine. You will label someone as not a proper Christian if:
- they do not believe Genesis is literal
- they fully endorse evolutionary theory and a 13.2 billion year old universe.
- they do not condemn homosexuality
- they do not believe Satan and demons are real.
- they believe in ultimate reconciliation.
- they do not blindly accept that all books in the New Testament are God breathed scripture.
- they do not read the King James Version.
Others will add more strings about going to the movies, listening to 'rock music', drinking alcohol, going to church, giving tithes, blah, blah, blah.
It boils down to the fact that you think that all 'proper Christians' must accept without question the authorised received doctrines of the evangelical churches. You may not use the politically incorrect word 'heretic' to label people but it's what you think.
I challenge you to take a step back from you think you know about Christianity, then question it and search for evidence to support it in the manner that a scientist, doctor or historian critically studies their chosen field.24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Let me repeat the pertinent words to this discussion: "...and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation..."
There is absolutely nothing there that says anything about confessing sins to your fellow man. There is absolutely nothing that says anything about the lifestyle being led. There isn't even anything that says we have to "accept" Christ!
Presumably the words are written for human beings, not Satan or his demons, but even that is immaterial. It says what it says, and you are most definitely NOT the person to have the right to read into His words anything more (or less) than is there. Additional complexity, additional requirements, additional commands are all just so many words, without connection to what He said.
Same question: why do you personally make it more complex than it is ("The bible does not state as you have said that belief is enough." "No, we must accept Christ." and of course my personal favorite, "...confess your sins with your mouth")?
I have asked you, given that you are making complex a very simple thing, the same thing you asked in the OP; why you are doing it. I have, I think, asked the question in every post I've made. You have ignored the question while continually adding more and more complexity, and that leaves me with a quote from my own post: "It never ceases to amaze (and sadden) me when people have such a deep seated belief in their own sense of being "right" that will deny it even as they keep insisting on it."6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.Corinthians
12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!1 Timothy11 But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 In the sight of God, who gives life to everything, and of Christ Jesus, who while testifying before Pontius Pilate made the good confession, I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
2 Timothy 2:19
Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”
2 Timothy 2:18-20 (in Context) 2 Timothy 2 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
James 5:15-17 (in Context) James 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.Of all those quotations, not a single one purports to give instructions on how to gain salvation. Many give instructions on how to live a good life, or what might please God, but not one says it is necessary for salvation.
So...your statement "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." is a conclusion drawn from nothing except personal belief (and wrong as well; anyone purified from all unrighteousness is living a perfect life). And the statement from above, that confession is necessary for salvation is even worse as it directly contradicts John.I have given you more than enough scripture. What really bothers me is people like you who have their minds made up and will not budge no matter how much scripture is presented. OF COURSE we have to confess our sins. It is written all through the bible. Or do you confess yours to a priest?
@Wilderness..... Those are not "quotations", they are scripture from the bible. Is this the bible you read, or are you arguing for the sake of arguing?
lol why do you continually project on other people? What are you so incredibly defensive of? You seem angrier and more on-edge than any atheist I've ever met. In my experience in the field of psychology, this is generally an indication of extreme insecurity. If your faith is that shaky, I feel sorry and empathy for you.
Yes. May the Flying Spaghetti monster bless you as well. I guess I struck a nerve. :-)
Now I'm your friend? I seem to recall a LOT of insults and accusations that you hurled at this "ignorant atheist" not too long ago. when did we become friends? I don't recall ever receiving an apology for your actions.
If you are not quoting someone else (writers of the bible) then it is your original work. I don't think so...
"OF COURSE we have to confess our sins"...in order to gain salvation.
Just where in all of those quotes do you see that? James 5:16 where he instructs people to do it? But he does NOT say it is necessary for salvation, just that they really should do it. You are adding the unsaid portion, that it necessary to be saved, all by yourself; James doesn't say that at all.
Why?Romans:
10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.Romans 14:
11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”Wilderness..... These scriptures are from Romans. There is no arguing scripture.
There's no arguing scripture? Really? That's why there are 40,000 different denominations of Christianity alone - because they all AGREE on everything? That's absurd.
Consequently to the conversation at hand, each denomination has different requirements for salvation.
I think I finally got an answer. "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified" You believe with your heart, not the mind that puts you above all other animals, and are thus justified in changing scripture to fit what your heart tells you it should say rather than accepting what it does say. Thank you.
Quoting myself again: "It never ceases to amaze (and sadden) me when people have such a deep seated belief in their own sense of being "right" that will deny it even as they keep insisting on it." You do well at it.lol how do you figure? How Christ-like of you to declare victory when you're the one that's been trampled to pieces.
I believe you are correct. As long as I read scripture with my eyes and mind rather than with your heart (my own heart would likely see something different as well), I will very often be wrong. The two simply do not see the same thing.
I'm not so sure about the "wrong" part though - as everyone seems to read scriptures with a different concept in mind, everyone must be equally wrong.JM....... I think not, as being trampled to pieces. Please state facts, not opinions because you do not like me.
Why? All that you're stating is your opinions about your beliefs, and whether I like you or not is completely IRRELEVANT to the conversation. Similarly, your opinion about me doesn't make one bit of difference either.
JM..... You are correct. But, I don't hold a grudge against you just because we have disagreed.
And you're making the assumption that I hold some kind of grudge against you because I point out your previous behavior?
No, I know this because you have asked for an apology?
I said I had not received an apology for all of the negative and derogatory statements you made about me personally as part of a larger point. That constitutes a grudge to you?
Okay...if you say so. I've done nothing more than other hubbers have done, and I've made no ad hominem attacks on your person. If we're going by behaviors here, what do you think yours says about you? Should I assume therefore that you have a grudge against me since you've said far worse things to and about me than I've ever said about you. Turn about is fair play, after all.
What in the world did I say? All I know is you turned to personal attacks and belittling my beliefs. You even said at one time your whole family was laughing at me. "Turn about is fair play!" So unless you owe me an apology, then I do not owe you one.
I don't remember specifically what was said (and doesn't that indicate that no grudge was held) but I know you made mention off the fact that I couldn't understand something because I was a lesbian and you repeatedly belittled me and other atheists who were participating. Again, I didn't ask for or expect an apology, I was just pointing out that none had been received. You think ridiculing a thought, belief or argument is a personal attack against you? Hello, welcome to the world of debate. I get ridiculed and mocked all of the time (not typically as vehemently a you did). Beliefs are not safe from ridicule our criticism. They do not get a special designation. They're not above anything else. If you're going to converse with people of differing beliefs, you have to be able to see that coming.
Great JM.... You have answered your question. So "we" must just live with it.
Lol, whatever you say, dude. If that makes you sleep better at night to always claim that you're right and never acknowledge that you may have been wrong, go for it. Don't really think that philosophy falls in line with what you claim to believe in, but that's on you, not me.
wow! You must be a super-awesome prophet, then! Congrats!
oh nothing to thank me for, I can do it too. I predict that the sun will set this evening.
- JThomp42posted 11 years ago0
@DH..... So you are saying that one can be a Christian and live like hell? The bible plainly states that we are "to love one another" and strive to live a Christ like life. In which we all know is impossible. This is why I say "strive."
JT are you saying that going to the movies drinking alcohol is living like hell? Of all the things I listed which ones are not Christlike and preclude loving one another?
DH... It is simple common sense. Of course we will know what is not pleasing to God, for when we do so we will be convicted by him that we are doing wrong. Alcohol I do not think is a sin, it is what it may make you do when too much is consumed.
Bingo. If what we do is not pleasing to God, he will tell us. It is not for you or anyone else to tell someone that what they are doing is not pleasing to God. We are all different and as I treat my kids in accordance with who they are, I'm sure God is the same.
But bear in mind, that conviction you talk about is very easily confused with self inflicted conviction based upon what we have been told is right and wrong in accordance with men's opinions. I used to be convicted about not tithing, alcohol and secular music for example. But I grew up and realised these are men's rules, and I am no longer convicted. In fact I have never felt more free since abandoning church. Praise The Lord the truth set me free.
JT: In my own personal experience, it was the church that made Christianity complicated.
My husband and I belonged to a church that consistently put guilt trips on the congregation if we were not coming there Wednesday nights, and passing out tracts door to door, or working in the church nursery "as unto the Lord" NO it was serving the CHURCH, NOT the Lord...excuse me?
Our Waterloo was one Sunday the pastor was furious because a lot of people did not attend a missionary dinner the night before. He yelled, "put it down! You will pay!"
My husband and I walked out, after belonging to the church for a long time, and we never returned.
I feel closer to God by not going to church, but worshipping Him on my own. Any sharing of God, I do it in writing.
I have attended other churches over the years, and pastors continue to preach do's and don'ts...you must do this, you can't do that!
In other words, for me, the church has made Christianity a bondage. The church, and members who follow and believe in bondage and struggling, spread the guilt around. I ran into a church member a few years ago, and she asked, "what church do you attend?" I told her none. She exclaimed, "Shame on YOU! Shame on you for not going to church."
I used to go to church exhausted on Wednesday nights after working all day to prayer meeting out of obligation and guilt. I now refuse to make Christianity a bondage. You hit the nail on the head by using the word, "complicated." You are correct. It's simple. Jesus lived a simple life, not one of brouhaha.
He does exist. Of that I have no doubt. Blessings, SparkleaOh so true. At the end of the day I think the Church has turned Christianity into just another also ran man made religion.
What I don't understand is why I should have to confess to an omniscient God, who already knows the past and the future. Would that not be redundant and useless?
unless that god likes to make you squirm. What else would you expect from a god that enjoys the scent of burning flesh and blood. It's an aroma that is pleasing to him.
That God would not be worth worshiping. In fact, we should declare war on something as vile as that.
where the hell did hell come into the conversation? I said nothing about hell.
unless that god likes to make you squirm. What else would you expect from a god that enjoys the scent of burning flesh and blood. It's an aroma that is pleasing to him.
yes, I know what I said. Point me to the word "hell" in my post. I was referring to god's desire for living sacrifices.
I didn't think you believed in God either?? It's a fairy tale, right? I didn't ruffle some feathers, did I?
I don't believe in god, but you don't need to believe in something in order to be able to discuss it. I can discuss unicorns and leprechauns too, and i don't believe that they exist - or are you only claiming that you can have a discussion on things that you DO believe in?
There you go, projecting again. Is it easy for you to assume that everyone in the world is frustrated, angry and persecuted while avoiding the same kind of assumptions about yourself? Still waiting for that apologyLol what do I owe you an apology for? Existing? I don't think so
I don't think you're supposed to confess to God - after all, He already knows.
Rather, you are supposed to confess to your priest, who can (and will) use the information and the guilt that goes with it to extract more cash from you. Maybe your neighbor as well; it will make him feel good, knowing that he is a better person than you.
- Emile Rposted 11 years ago0
After reading through your thread, I think Wilderness did a fine job of attempting to make you understand the error in your assumptions. And, judging by the length of time between Christ's walk here on earth and the penning of the gospels; one can easily become suspicious. How much personal opinion was used to flavor each book? How many of their own conclusions were in the background while they wrote a collection of their memories? If Jesus did live, then we have to accept that the discrepancies contained in the gospels are a result of personal theologies. These can't be viewed as scripture as much as separate biographies.
Paul was a self appointed apostle. Since he didn't walk with Jesus and benefit from the presence of the Man, his opinions must be taken as that. Opinions. Not scripture. I'm not attempting to deny his experience on the road to Damascus, or any subsequent miracles. But, he was a preacher, not a prophet.
Jesus spoke simply. In order to showcase the need to think for yourself. He spoke in parables, which should not necessarily be interpreted literally. He wanted people to think. And we have to accept that when we think, we often arrive at different conclusions.
But, the words and example of Jesus, in my opinion, have been ignored in order for the religious to build a religion. In order to allow the positions of the pharisees to expand in number, so that now every religious person can feel justified in making their own particular set of rules they insist the world must follow. In so doing, they become the white washed sepulchers and attempt to pull the memory of the man inside with them. Attempting to deny him from others, trying to be the conduit the spirit flows through to the world by inventing hurdles you, alone, determine should exist.
God isn't yours to give or withhold.Emile.... I have made no assumptions. This is all in the bible. The bible you choose not to believe. That is your decision.
There are enough passages in the Bible to support any philosophy. My opinion on this subject is derived from reading the Bible. I simply chose not to agree with your take on it.
Unless, your argument is that you and those who agree with you are the only ones who accurately read the Bible. If so, unfortunately there are a lot like you who don't agree with you. Are you playing the pharisee, or the sauddecee in this production? I'm simply deriving an opinion from the teachings of Jesus. Said opinion does not impose my beliefs on others.Emile..... I suppose everyone has their own opinion. Of course, you are entitled to that.
Oh, thanks. I'm entitled to an opinion; on my way to hell by your reckoning. That's actually funny.
- I have a question, if you don't mind answering. As you have probably surmised, I find philosophies such as yours a testimony to a deep hatred of one's fellow man.
Have you every wondered what it will be like once you reach your destination? Knowing so many are bound for hell, do you plan on being merciful? Asking God to reconsider? Or do you see it as an 'I told you so' party?No Emile.... I wished more than anything everyone would go to Heaven. I truly do with all of my heart. But, this is completely out of my hands. I hold no strife for those who disagree with my beliefs. I wish you and the others all the best!
That wasn't the question, but thanks. Could you answer the question? If you are right and you end up there while the majority of humanity is shuffling off to hell, will you display mercy? Will you stand for them and argue their case to God? Even if it jeopardized your place in heaven? Jesus said the greatest sacrifice is to give your life for another. Will you display the same love for your fellow man that he did?
Yes or no is fine. But I am interested in your answer.Like I have said Emile...... I am not worthy of this task. Only Jesus Christ will be doing this. So, to answer your question, if I were worthy, yes. But, I am not. So, I'm afraid that would be no.
Emile.. I just want you to know your question has me in tears. I am so unworthy of his love. And, I do wish for everyone to go to Heaven. This I swear.
I believe you, but that doesn't answer the question. The reason I ask is to determine whether you give lip service to love. Take your time, but you need to answer this for yourself before the time comes. Who are you? What do you ultimately stand for? What will you acquiesce to? What if you get there and some aren't willing to shuffle off to hell? If commanded by God, would you forcibly push them there? These questions and answers showcase the concept of God you have developed. Is it something you can proudly follow, or something you will follow against good conscience?
Either way, if your belief were carried out here on earth, what could it be compared to? Is that behavior pattern acceptable in this life to Christians?Emile.. This is a hypothetical question that I'm not sure can be answered. First of all, I would not damn; or be a part of anyone going to hell. Secondly, this is not the way the bible says things will be. There will be the second coming of Christ when he will take to Heaven his children; those who have accepted him and are saved. The one's left behind will go through much turmoil and pain, but will have a chance to accept Christ; this is called the great tribulation period. You see, God will give everyone ample opportunities to accept Christ. God would never have his children have anything to do with sending and or pushing someone into the lake of fire. To sum it up, God is love. He wants nothing more than for everyone to be with him in Heave. This is why he sent the great sacrifice, his son Jesus to be crucified for all's sin.
I've thought about this one a lot. No one, in their right mind, when faced with evidence of God would chose any but him. So, if you are right and there is a hell, how do people ultimately end up there? The only answer I can see is that people build philosophies of a vengeful God and follow them. Doing what you know in your heart to be wrong, no matter the reason, is wrong. If you do what you know to be right, no matter the consequences, you meet your fate with a clear conscience.
You say Christ will come. I assume you believe in Satan. If your philosophy is right I see it entirely possible for many professed Christians to willingly follow the wrong course, thinking they won in the end. Only to find they have been playing for the wrong team all along.
Repeating biblical nonsense does not an argument make.
So the Father's love that David described as everlasting does in fact have a 'best before' date? Imagine God watching someone falling from a cliff: is he calling out "I love you.....I love you....(point of impact and death) I hate you go to hell......I hate you go to hell...." Is this the God you promote JT.?
That's a good one. I had to chuckle when I read it.
No DH.... God is love. He has given us free will to make our own choices. It's that simple.
@Emile, why do you even waste time talking to a right winged legalist? I am a Christian and I tell you now whether you believe or not. Hell is a real place. It secretly resides in the hidden desires of the hearts of hell fire preaching and believing christians. They have taken this pagan belief and turned the turn or burn doctrine into a money making machine by making up stories of "hell and back" by false teachers such as Bill Weiss, Mary K Baxter and more, because they know hell is fear, and fear sells. What they fail to see is that God is not only love, He is perfect love, and perfect love wins. If you get a chance, read Rob Bells book called "Love Wins".
Thanks, I'll try to remember to look for that book. But, I talk to people like this because I think they are probably very good people. They have just been misled. You can't ponder the doctrine of hell without seeing how heinous a belief it is. You have to be evil to accept it, if you take the time to think it through.
If God exists he has to be, as you say, perfect love. It's the only answer that makes sense with the story of Jesus. I read once that the love of God sent the reason of God to walk among us. I always liked that saying. It goes with Jesus's ministry. He implored people to look within. To think. To understand the act of love fulfills the cosmic law. Threatening hell is void of love, so therefore can't be resolved with cosmic law.And this is the difficulty I find in your posts. You take an excerpt from another person's comment. You don't respond to their thought. You belittle things they didn't say. I can't figure out if it is a reading comprehension problem, or an insatiable desire to believe your thought processes are superior. Honestly, I would have thought you would have agreed with that comment. He was saying hell lives in the hearts of those who want to believe in hell. Not that anyone goes to hell.
JT you did make assumptions.Wilderness clearly showed you that you were adding further conditions in addition to what Jesus stated was required. But you ignored him and cut and pasted more bible verses. You assumed that what Jesus said was not correct.
DH... You are wrong. Every word that Jesus has spoken is correct. No, matter what you believe (Universal reconciliation) we must confess our sins. Every one is not going to Heaven DH.
Nobody is going to heaven JT. there is a resurrection of the dead to a new Earth. Jesus said himself no man has been to heaven.
DH.... All of his children will ascend to Heaven during the second coming of Christ.
Do you actually have any thoughts of your own or do you simply come here to regurgitate biblical nonsense?
The fact that we reject your bible, your beliefs and your wishes is nothing short of what you would do with all the other religions and beliefs.
Believing in heaven is childish and we have grown up.
You are right JT. They complicate it. When God revealed himself to me (was minding my own business) He put it simply. Jesus is real. He died for me, and its all about love. This is even simpler than you put it. Doesn't get more complicated than that, and after all these years it's what I keep coming back to.
Are you seriously telling us God appeared before you and spoke to you?
God revealed himself to me, too. I had to file a restraining order and suffered from night terrors for months.
Troubled.... crawl back into that hole you came from.
Yet God didn't even give him winning lottery numbers. What a worthless God.
Thank you insearchof truth. You are absolutely correct!
Hope that God reaches out to the other people in this post and tells them too. I know He can. Troubled, you explain to me the prophecies in the bible that came true, the man who is recorded in the history books (not just the bible) as dying but his body was never found (the Jews blamed the Christians for stealing it), speaking in tounges, miracles, healings, modern day prophecies that come true, the indisputable evidence of supernatural occurrences, ghosts', demon possessions, false prophets, new age gifts not associated with God but proving the existence of the spiritual realm, mixed with the consistent experiences such as mine where God reveals himself to people, including out of body near death experiences. Explain that. No He didn't appear in front of me, but when God speaks, you listen. No I'm not mental read my testimony and decide for yourself. Church is not reflective sometimes of the reality of God, and the simplicity of it all, which JT has pointed out. I challenge to say "Jesus, if you are real, show me." Cause He will. He is awesome.
There is no indisputable evidence for any of these things you speak of. If you think you have some, then present it to us for evaluation. There is, however, plenty of evidence to suggest that mental illness is a fact. And when people believe that imaginary entities exist....that suggests mental distortion....not indisputable evidence
getitrite..... Attacking someone's mental health is crossing the line.
There is a thing called an altered state of conciousness, which is simply viewing reality from within a different spectrum. Am I crazy just because I see colors that you are unable to see? OR hear sounds which you can not hear Or are you handicaped.
This forum seems to have become a little toxic... I suppose that is what happens when you say that everybody who doesn't believe in the exact same thing that you believe in is going to burn forever in a lake of fire.
JT... I think it was Emile R who said before that she thought that you were probably a very good person but had been misled. I wouldn't use the word misled but she has got a point and I think that probably you are a good person also.
However, I think that people have got an issue with individuals making statements like you have for a number of reasons :
1) They think that the person doesn't really have much genuine interest in the welfare of other people... just from the point of view of improving their own chances of personal salvation... rather like the bean-counter, they believe this person thinks that if they spread the word of a particular message to x amount of people, then surely they will get to Heaven.
If this kind of person met a starving child, they would probably give him/her a Bible before they would give a piece of bread.
2) Surely we have to ask ourselves what kind of place Heaven really is.
And how could we really enjoy it in the knowledge that other people from our family or just people that we really loved, had been condemned to eternal suffering?
Surely a belief in God alone is not enough, we must believe in a Loving God.
3) I notice that you have quoted almost exclusively from the Old Testament... I can't really see anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke or John.
But did Jesus not tell us that a lot of what was in the Old Testament had been misquoted or was just erroneous?
An example I would give... I don't have the extensive knowledge of the Bible that you have... but the case of Abraham and his son.
Abraham heard God telling him that to prove his love for The Father he must sacrifice his son... a blood sacrifice as a proof of love.
So he took his son to the highest mountain and was just about to kill him when God, pacified, intervened and told him not to do it.
Now --- there is no way that anybody could support such an action and --- even if it really did happen, which I don't believe... then, still we would have to condemn it.
These are not the actions of a Loving God or Father.
I truly don't believe that this ever happened but I am just making the point that a very selective quoting and interpreting from certain parts of the Bible can be very dangerous.
Like Bob Dylan said in his song... "With God on our Side..." many evil acts have been carried out by people who convinced others that they were representing God's will.Damian..... The majority of the quotes of scripture I have quoted is 99% from the New Testament. Maybe you should read through the thread again?
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