Witnesses

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   John Cainposted 14 years ago

   Who do you think the two witnesses mentioned in Revelations will be and why?

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The two candlesticks , two olive trees; 
        In order to fully know who they will be I think it necessary to understand who they  WERE.
        When were they first mentioned is scripture??
      Zecharial, Exekiel ??
      
        They were standing before the throne for a long, long time
        They were described many times.
      
        The two candlesticks , two olive trees;
        They were said to be "the two" anointed ones!
        I would think that this is speaking of the highest level of anointing?   Who in scripture could that have been?
        They are said to be the two spirits of God.
       
        Does scripture actually say that these two were ever living among mankind  ???   Or are we assumeing that these two once walked the earth as men??

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         The Supreme Godposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         JEREMY MY CHILD, THERE WONT BE ANY WITNESSES...ITS ALL CHEAP CRAP...THE OT & NT WAS CREATED BY SATAN TO DESTROY THE LOGIC OF MANKIND...DONT FALL FOR IT MY CHILD...DONT FALL FOR IT...IM HELPING YOU BECAUSE I KNOW I DIDNT GIVE YOU ANY BRAIN...THATS WHY YOU NEED SPECIAL CARE FROM ME...
         
         
         

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            Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It is about time that somebody noticed that I am a ... SPECIAL  Child

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   2. 71

      Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No one will be a witness, because it will never happen.

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         kmackey32posted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I like your answer the best....

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            earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yep! That one makes sense.

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      These two witnesses were standing before the throne for many hundreds of our years.  They were seen before the throne by Ezekiel around 600 BC.
        I think that they were there doing a job. They had a purpose being there?   What could that have been?   
      Were they witnesses all along?   
      
         And then something changes.  They are reasigned.
      They are reasigned for the same length of time as the beast described in Chapter 13 was given to blaspheme the Lord.??
      
         I think that we should answer these questions before we can guess as to who they are??

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   4. 49

      paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Hi friends
      
      If the Creator- God Allah YHWH witnesses about a thing, then His only witnessing is sufficient and no more witnessing is required.
      
      Thanks
      
      I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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   5. 61

      Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Tweedledee and Tweedledum.
      
      The reason why? Where else but in Wonderland would such things happen? 

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      1. 71

         getitriteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         It could also be Mickey Mouse And Donald Duck!
         
         Hilarious that a book of silly, ANCIENT fairytales is taken so seriously by postmodern people.    WTF!

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   6. 61

      Dave Mathewsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Abraham and Moses.Abraham is considered by the Jews as the Father of the faith and Moses received God's laws to give to the people.

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2. 69

   goldenpathposted 14 years ago

   They will not be prominent world figures yet will be prophets of God duly ordained to that office.  With the power and authority through that spirit they will be able to pierce to the heart and soul of man unto the convincing of the penitent and humble.  They will ultimately be rejected, scorned and martyred.  Being left dead for shame in the streets for over three days they shall rise.
   
   Who they are or will be at this point is irrelevant.  Living each moment with genuiness of heart as if the Savior were to come tomorrow is how we are to prepare and be truly worthy.

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3. 61

   kessposted 14 years ago

   Two witnesses out of many in that era who live by faith,
   the works that these two would do are merely the works that many others will also do and even greater works than those of the two.

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   Twenty One Daysposted 14 years ago

   "...the Lord of the earth"
   
   Law + Prophets   
   (who did great works and testified); nothing could harm them.
   
   Note how first is the Temple and the Alter, then the two witnesses.
   After 3 1/2 days they are resurrected and glorified (fulfilled) and taken up.
   
   Immediately after it says: the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord...
   
   Is it symbolic of the the Law and Prophets being fulfilled & Y`shua becoming ruler of the earth? Let's look:
   
   Daniel 9:26
   
   After the sixty-two 'sevens (3 1/2 days) the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolation have been decreed.
   He (Y`shua) will confirm a (new) covenant with many for one seven.
   In the middle of the seven he (Y`shua) will put an end to sacrifice and offering [where? yup, the temple & alter]. And on a wing  of the temple he (Y`shua) will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him (Y`shua)....
   
   note the third woe is the Ark of the Covenant seen in the temple of the New Jerusalem where the 24 elders praise).
   
   nothing to do with anti-christ; everything to do with the new covenant.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ISM - good fer u 21 - feel more important now? I hope so. ISM GUd LOLOLOLOLOLO
      
      Deary me 21 - fed that ISM - remember - you know better than wot they do.

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Having grammar issues today, Marcus or is that your own ebonics? "Gud fer you. Fa love Pa."

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            Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Wot? We use grammar now - cain't we be just talkin garbage like wot u doin?
            
            Membert - coz them caint unnerstan - dun mean u don b talking bove them. Lololo0l

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5. 61

   stilljustwonderinposted 14 years ago

   Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah.  Later he was speaking with Moses and Elijah.  I think that the 2 witnesses will be Moses and Elijah, but in the form of men here on earth.  We can't know yet who their earthly forms will be.  We can only watch, and listen.  We will know them when they come.

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I am very much into the timeline comparison of prophetic timeframe being different than actual earth time.
      
        62 weeks as described in Daniel was in earth time approx 556 years.
      
        The Church teaches that a day in prophesy is = to a year. 
      I disagree with the actual number but for now that is irrelevant. 
         If a prophetic day did equal a year?   would it not always be so?    1260 days should be 1260 years?
      
         According to 62 weeks being 556 years;  a week would be approx 9.13  earth years.
      
         In witch case 1260 days = 1643 years.
      
        For approx. 1643  these two witnesses cause droughts as often as they please? And they have power to smite the earth with plagues as often as they choose?
      
         How long does it take a plague to run its course?
         How long does a drought last. To cause as many as of these as they please, seems to indicate a length of time much greater than just 3 1/2 of our years?

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         Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Moses caused the plagues on egypt. The prophets held back the rain, the sun, etc. Elijah even called fire down from heaven....
         
         Two Witnesses:
         
         Law & Prophets. No one could overpower the law or the prophecies.

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            Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I am not disagreeing with ya.   You  might be saying something  very similar thing as I.
            
               I'm just saying that the timeframe of 3 1/2 years can not be talking about earth years.
            
               Revelation speaks of the seven candlesticks standing before the throne.   It also says that these seven represent the seven spirits of God  and each represents the the spirit over the seven churches that the seven letters were written to.
            
              In Rev.  Jesus said that if they didn't get their stuff together that he would take their candle stick away. 
            
              These two olive trees or two candlesticks have something in common with the seven churches that recieved the letters ???
            
              I find it interesting that only two of these seven churches  still exist today?
            
              I don't know what these things have to do with anything?? 
            I just think that they are all related in some way?

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               Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I find it interesting that only two of these seven churches  still exist today."
               
               This I didn't know. Interesting...

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                  Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I was looking for the book that I read that in.. 
                  Must be boxed up, out in a storage bld.  Will look for it some tomorrow.
                  
                    It seems like the origional church bld. in Philadelphia and the other Thyatira though this one is now a Muslum Mosque.
                  
                    The other five church buildings have been destroyed.
                  
                      I have always wondered if this fit into the scope of things???

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                     Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Very interesting from that perspective.
                     
                     I see much in the way that some call the "old" or "new" covenants the two witnesses, but my fall back is -- Moses and Elijah are with Him at the transfiguration. He came to fulfill the Will of the Father: fulfill the law & prophecies. This would fit --especially seeing the time line they are in, according to john's letter.
                     
                     In Matthews dialogue, these two are seen on the mountain, and it is verified just after:
                     
                     every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses...
                     
                     The Fathers threefold witness was the law, the prophets and Y`shua. They were doing their job, until they put the word to death. Power of given to the beast --death is the beast. Three days later, He rose again.
                     
                     just a thought.

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                        Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        These two witnesses are given almost exactly the same amount to time on earth as is the beast that rises up out of the sea (Rev 13)  At the same time.
                        
                           Many people believe that this is literally 3 1/2 of our years on earth.
                           If we look at everything that these two witnesses are said to do, and everything that the beast is said to do, AND everything that is said to happen when the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments are inflicted upon the earth,  How in the world would we be able to tell when one thing ends and another begins?   Or who is doing what.
                        
                           I think that all of this has been unfolding over the past 2000 years.
                           The 1260 days are equivilent to 1643 years.
                           42 months = approx 1680 years
                        
                           I think that the two witness represent the two spirits of God that are within the two religions.
                        
                           The beast and the false prophet are those two religions.
                        
                          Hows that for an oximoron?????

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                           Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           I think about the 69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy; a week is 7 days = 7 years, as you've stated in another of your comments.  We know the Messiah was 'cut off' in the 69th week and in Jewish terminology, this means 'killed' or 'death'.  That leaves the 70th week yet to come = 7 years.  That's why the 42 months appears to be half of that week ~ that points to literal time.  ??  Those are just my thoughts.

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      Twenty One Daysposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      correct: Moses/Elijah = law/prophets

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6. 60

   John Cainposted 14 years ago

   Actually it does not matter who they may be. Just like goldenpath said in the very first comment. Their words will come with power, they will be slain in the streets, and then rise up from the dead after three days from where they fell. Even Jesus suffered mortal or physical death before going up to heaven. There are two men in the bible that never did meet a physical death on earth before they were translated into heaven. Enoch and Elijah. I think they will be the two witnesses and at that time, also meet with physical death.

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      Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I wonder the same thing and for the same reasons...however, the signs that these two witnesses do are those of Moses and Elijah...truly, it was God who worked these signs through them, and He can certainly do the same through whomever they are. 
      
      I ponder Malachi 4:5: "Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD."  However, Jesus said in Mat 11:14, "And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is Elijah who was to come."  Luke 1:17 softens Jesus' statement a bit, in that is states of John the Bapist, "It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah".  Was John Elijah or did he come in the spirit and power of Elijah?
      
      When I see the prophesied plagues, I guess I'll know they're here...I surely hope to hear them on TV or meet one or both of them in person :-)

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   TMMasonposted 14 years ago

   I am reading a theory right now that posits the Torat and Ingeel, Old and New Testaments, as the two witnesses.
   
   Very similar to some seventh day writings I have read.

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8. 69

   goldenpathposted 14 years ago

   The Jews gather home to rebuild Jerusalem.  The nations will gather to battle against them.  Armies will encompass the city and will have authority there for three and a half years.  They will not be utterly overcome by the enemy thanks to two mighty Jewish prophets.  They, through their mighty miracles, will thwart the enemies' total advance on Jerusalem.  The prophets will, however, ultimately be slain thus leaving Jerusalem to the mercy of the enemy for three and a half days.  The prophets then shall rise and ascend to heaven.
   
   Then the Messiah comes and shall convulse the earth.  He shall overthrow the Gentile army, deliver the Jews and cleanse Jerusalem.  Wickedness shall be cut off from the earth and the righteous dead shall be raised to usher in the millenial reign of Jesus Christ for a thousand years.  Ultimate peace shall be had during this time until Satan is loosed for a season to gather his army to war with the army of Michael the Archangel in the final battle of Gog and Magog.
   
   The battle of Armageddon takes place prior to the Second Coming and the battle of Gog and Magog takes places after the millennium.

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      Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Question...   The 42 months of the beast?
      The beast is here before the 1000 years that Satan is bound  and this beast is still here when Satan is loosed for a little season?
      
          How can this be?

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         goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Satan, him literally, cannot take physical form.  Physical bodies and the blessings and journey of mortality were only promised to those who accepted Jesus Christ in premortality.  The bounding of Satan is the enmity that God will place during that time between the earth and Satan and his influence.  At the conclusion of the millenium Satan's influence including pride, lust, greed and hate will enter the world for it's final time.  After the beforementioned final battle Satan and his final hosts shall be consigned to their eternal designated place for eternity where Cain shall rule over Satan - for Satan shall lose all power as a spirit not clothed in flesh.  The earth shall be celestialized.

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            Jeramiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Let me rephrase the question...
            
               1260 days is mathmatically approx. the same period of time as 42 months.
              The two witnesses  and the beast are given approx. the same period of time at the same time.
            
              The beast is mentioned being on the earth before the 1000 years begin, and is still here after the 1000 years if finished.
            
              This should be ringing the bell for many questions.
            
               Scripture doesn't say that Jesus comes down to the earth for the 1000 years that Satan is bound.
            
               These two issues need to be resolved, if anyone is to understand prophesy, which includes the "Second Coming"

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               goldenpathposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Jesus Christ shall rule and reign, however, as you intimated that does not mean He shall constantly be on the earth.  Creation extends beyond the bounds of this world and He tends to those and is Savior to those as well.  We agree on that simple idea.
               
               I am sorry.  I am not seeing the contradiction in the timeline.  The beast is not a single entity but a conglomeration of entities influenced and born of Satan.  This has always existed and will continue to exist.  This is the preparatory time when great entities are specifically planning and conspiring to influence all hearts of man.  This rise to such power and influence denotes the timeline. 
               
               The major change in the millenium is the heart of man.  The miracle is not the literal enmity placed between Satan and man but man's heart will change to long and desire for righteousness.  That is what shuns Satan.  Christ overcame the temptings and Satan departed.  That enmity is from God but ultimately put in place by us through our righteous desires and will to carry them out.
               
               This is the great deception.  The world will be looking for that single person, entity or beast in a literal form.  However, history and the craft of deception bears out that Satan works according to the flaxen cord.  He will bind people with what they are already accustomed to and the cord will tighten even without their conscious knowledge of it.  Our focus should be on the influences of the world as a whole and not looking for that singular object.  That's when we shall be blind-sighted from the sides.
               
               Daniel also sees the vision of the beast mentioned in Revelation 13:5.  See Daniel 7:8
               
               Sorry I wasn't successful in satisfying your question.  I think it is more or less a miscommunication of terms.
               
               I whole-heartedly agree that the measure of times mentioned in various parts of the scriptures does not necessarily set in stone our own reckoning of time.  This, to me, satisfies questions regarding the age of the earth.
               
               Time for bed here in Iowa but will follow the thread.   Up early to prepare for my sermon.

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                  paarsurreyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi friends
                  
                  Jesus died naturally and peacefully in India; so he is not physically to come to rule on the world.
                  
                  Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908 is the person who was to come to reform and guide the world morally and spiritually.
                  
                  Jesus is not to come, in my opinion, as the dead don't come into this world again,
                  
                  I love Jesus and Mary as mentioned in Quran.
                  
                  Thanks
                  
                  I am an Ahmadi peaceful Muslim

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                     Beelzedadposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Wow! First day back from being banned and you are already repeating the same things over and over again. It's like a programmed robot. I mean, you have nothing new to say. Copy/paste. 

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                     earnestshubposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You were there and saw it happen I suppose!

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               Judah's Daughterposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               The beast and false prophet are cast into the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the thousand years...and they are never written about again.  Satan, on the other hand, is bound in the bottomless pit for the thousand years.  Satan will be released at the end of the millennia to gather the nations [unbelievers] to surround the Holy City, intending to destroy them, but no war will be fought there at Gog and Magog, for fire comes from heaven and destroys them all.  That's when the second resurrection (unbelievers) takes place, followed by the Judgment Seat and the sentencing of those whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life to the Lake of Fire.  It is after this that the New Heaven and New earth are made manifest - the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and the saints live with and in God forever on earth, going in and out of the New Jerusalem.

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   goldenpathposted 14 years ago

   Out of respect for John Cain it would be nice if legitimate participants offer their comments.  Sarcasm and condescension is quite inconsiderate to display for a sincere question.  My input may or may not be taken seriously but at least it is an opinion that bears no condescension and is in the spirit of true dialogue. 
   
   Forum participation should be considered beyond just staying "within the rules."  There is respect that should be freely offered.  Any mature adult should already have this engrained into their character.  So, aside from any individuals under the age of twelve let's show Mr. Cain the respect due.
   
   Mr. Cain - very good question for a forum thread!

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10. 60

    Jeramiposted 14 years ago

    It is my belief that Revelation 14 is speaking of the HARVEST that occurs just prior to the first resurrection.
      The 144,000 that were redeemed from among mankind are seen with Jesus. Being the first fruits they were redeemed some time prior to this. AND then the earth is harvested.
    
    
      I believe that the Battle that is described in Chapters 16, 19, and the end of C. 20 are all talking about the same battle.
     
      14:20 and the winepress was trodden without the city
      14:13  Write blessed are the dead which die in the Lord henceforth, ... that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.
      This was the first resurrection
     
      Chapter 15 begins with the saints being in heaven after the first resurrection, and the vials being handed out.
      15:1  I saw another sign ... ; seven angels having the seven last plagues   
     
    15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass ...  ; and them that had gotten victory over the beast and over his image and his mark and the number of his name  STANDING ON the sea of glass.
       
    This also was the first resurrection! But the last seven plagues had not yet been poured out upon the earth.
       
      16:2   And the first angel pours out his vial upon the earth
      16:12  And the sixth angel pours out his vial upon the great river Euphrates and the water was dried up ...And I saw three unclean spirits coming out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the False prophet.
      16:16 These spirits go out to gather together the kings of the earth to Armageddon.
    I
    t appears to me that the beast is on the earth both before and after the 1000 years.
     
    16:17  It is Done
      16:20  and every island fled away. 
    
      19:7 For the marriage of the Lamb has come
      19:18  The birds are invited to the marriage supper to eat the flesh of "ALL MEN"
      19:21  And the remnant were slain.   
    
    
      It appears to me that Chapters 15, 16, 19, and the end of C20 are all talking about the same battle.

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