there are many topics talking about Jesus in this forum but excuse me to start this discussion and form it this way.
I am reading the bible rightnow , it is really long but I love reading anyway
I just need answers for three qustions please:
1-which part of the bible does Jesus say that he is God or he has some of God parts or nature?is it very clear when he says so?
2-which part does he ask people to worship him(I undrstand that he says that he is the only way to heaven but to worship him I guess we need an exact phrase from him asking us to worship him)?
3-Why does God need to leave somebody or a part of him die to forgive us? lets say that he loves us , then he would forgive us without sacrificing of someone(what I meanis that God is capable of everything and he doesn't need to kill any one such as Jesus to prove his love or to make his love and forgivness work.
You will get a lot of interpretations on these questions.
1) I found only one itsy bitsy little thing that Jesus made references to being God, but in all honesty, it's wasn't meant the way people think it was. He says, I forget what passage, he refers to Him and God as We. That's it. No where else does he say he is God. Jesus never says worship him, he actually says do not worship me, and the testaments were written by people, Jesus did not write any of this book.
Your right, God did not have to sacrifice anyone one to prove his love. Jesus was saying, don't worry about death. Look, I will let them kill me but I am not afraid because life everlasting is promised but you have to die. This is life, don't worry about it, you will be born again.
thank you for responding
1) the only reference you mentioned about the interpretations that Jesus is a God can be considered as a greatness signal for one God because great and very important characters are described in plural forms sometimes to put emphasise on that character and no one could be greater than God.
*Why does God make very difficult beleives that not everyone can understand?
*why Adam's sin is related to us?
*How can anyone be born bad?(we become bad when we behave meanly only, don't we?)
*can't God create us without sins?isn't he capable of everything?can't he forgive us when we make mistakes and turn back to him?why does he need somebody to die for this forgivness?
1. John 10:30
2. John 4:23-24
3. Blood Sacrifice is ultimate for cleansing. In the old Testament days, they were involved in the blood of animals like the dove and rams, it was really good enough to ensure an eternal redemption to Mankind. God is all in all and a master strategist. A sinless human blood has to become sin for all to ensure an eternal redemption for Mankind in Christ Jesus. (John 3:16). It takes faith to accept and see the realities attached.
1.(I and my Father are one).
*yeah , this could be explained as he is God but also can be explained as if you want to listen to God then listen to me or if you love God you have to love me as a result because I was sent by him.
also, if this explained as he is God , then how can he be God and the son at the same time or the son is just an expersion to say that Jesus was part from God.
but he said we are one and didn't say I am a part from him.
is that has something to do with souls and bodies?
because we know that souls give characteristics of bodies like the smell of food or something else.
we may say that God is different from us ,but why he let us be confused about his nature without further explaining?(this confusion led to many wars between cristians through several years).why he made the faith very difficult to understand?
has this something to do with strength of belive?how?by which way?
believe of what?of God?of Jesus?how can you believe in Jesus?
I can believe in God by watching the nature and the creatures.
I can believe in God by studying any complicated system in our life that makes us realize that some extraordinary power has created everyting even if we don't see it
for example you would say that a specific technological instrument was made by a smart guy who has a great mind even if you haven't seen him.
simply, I can beleive in God alone because everything is structured simillary in the world which means that only one has created.
I can beleve in one God because of the amazing harmony everywhere.
I can beleive in one God easily without any holy book , but how can I believe Jesus sacrificing stories and what does this has anything to do with faith?what faith?what is our motivation to beleive these stories?to get into heaven?how do we know that these stories about Jesus sacrificing are right?
2.((23)But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him(24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth).
*these asks to worship God or the father and not Jesus specifically.
could you tell me how was this explained.
3.(For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life).
and the old Testament says:
(And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.) Genesis 22:2
King James Reference Bible
*I understood from you that God inventd a new method to rescue people.
ok,John(3:16) says God gave his son to save people, save people from what?it doesn't say from sins, even if it says, it might mean: if you follow hime you will be saved from minor sins or these which you have stopped doing and promised not to get back to again with being punished in life.
(such as killing a killer)
(whosoever believeth in him ),who is him?God or Jesus?or both and how?
also, you mentioned that God is the master of strategies which is completely right.
God is perfect, he knows everything and he doesn't need to teach us all of what he knows because our minds can't take it.
but how can he made believing in him a secret?does it really need only faith to believe or some imagination as well?
did God want to teach us something by paying to himself our sins price?
It could be love but is it justice to do so?
sorry I didn't mean to make it so long but this is the way ideas were formed in my mind and if I left some aspects for later I would forgot them unless I write them which seems to be a good way for ideas organizing.
I hope those three simple answers have it all. Please I have always restrained myself from debating or disputing the word of God as written in the Scriptures. The scriptures cannot be broken (John 10:35). It is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe. For me it is not just a great history book but in the power therein. Check out this also about walking in faith "Luke 1:45", there's a great energy in it. Thanks and God bless you!
At some point he is reported as saying "Before Abraham was, I am" which is quite a bold claim from a young man. Of course, that too is open to interpretation.
Part 3. May I be more cynical.
It's original sin. If you're born bad, then have to go to authority, the church for extra life, and conform to some context of more perfect being, and kill your natural self. You owe your soul to the company store.
Keep reading. Read it again.
I myself think, to speak of things in the Bible (I read KJV) you should quote as it is written.
It's an important topic to make mistakes .
It should be read and interpreted for yourself.
Start reading at the first and read through, as though reading a letter to yourself.
Pray for understanding.
good luck to you all.
I'm Betty Jo
Don't get hung up on the book - some people do, and it gets in the way.
Truth needs no printed word, and no interpretation.
In fact, truth is ineffable, and any words about it are already imperfect and imprecise.
Don't ask other imperfect humans to use more imperfect words to explain their imperfect grasp of something that is inherently unable to be grasped from our limited perspective anyway.
Let those who find comfort in words have their enjoyment.
Words are not necessary, and words can deceive.
Trust your intuition, and go with YOUR God, not some fossilised God-image captured, shrunk, rendered petulant, and masculinised by archaic words.
Breathe God, be God, and let others worry about dusty books on dusty shelves.
You already know more than they.
thanx Jenny for these nice words
words are not always true, I think you are right.
also, truth for some people could be not for others.
*what is truth?
I think truth is ideas that we get without any bias and with full braveness.
it is the highly prooved knowledge that we wanted to know with a nobel aim without hate cultures that can affect us. and when we get it we get very satisfied about it because of our good intention.
words can not give us the complete truth.
*nature is evil, why did God create evil nature?do you mean that God made us bad and sent somebody to be killed so that he forgives us?
*why are good people considered evil?
*I understand that evil is everywhere, but not all people are bad and also many indviduals who used to be mean get better and change?
-I assume that evil existence in the world was for testing people.
it is to see what direction in life you are going to choose.
are you going to thank your God or ingnore him.
I don't think evil is a generalization.
you Must beleive very strange stories that you have never seen and they ask you to read the whole book and tell you that you will find the light and guidness in it.
I think that some people believe the bible because they only need faith, any kind of faith.
**Do you think that every individual need a religious faith?
We, mortals, still want to read and hear words. Your words are among the best ones, though
*How can anyone be born bad?(we become bad when we behave meanly only, don't we?) Well my friend since you asked, it could be said to work like this. If nature were holy they couldn't exploit it to get rich. Nature is evil, or least in of itself has no innate worth, because it by itself does not make a profit, which would give it meaning. People who do not shed their naturalness, by adopting unnatural ideals, i.e. perfection and profit, are thought to be evil, or have no, or deformed souls. If they don't convert, they can be exploited, stolen from, used as slaves and on and on, for their own good and the good of those that matter. Look around.
A bedtime story book such as the bible, would be open to many foolish notions of the way people understand certain things, faith is good for some people as it helps in a positive way in life, but to be told that this is fact and to believe it as fact is childish and really does not have any bearing on real life as a whole, in terms of the reality of this doomed planet.
We should throw a Gods and Goddess only party! No mortals allowed, lol. Kidding.
*nature is evil, why did God create evil nature?do you mean that God made us bad and sent somebody to be killed so that he forgives us? Something like that. 'Who knows what lurks in the hearts of men?', from an old American radio show. People tend to believe what is convenient to their objectives, unconsciously.
Thought I already did. Your turn. Great the way you put things -such clarity, to the point on.
I don't understand.
but anyway, I don't believe that God created an evil nature and sent some body to sacrifice for nature to be better.
*why did he make it bad in the first place??
*we believe in God when we see sytematic creatures, but how do we believe in Jesus? by reading the bible? what part of the bible makes you believe the writer ?
How interesting it is to see people discuss about the bible and their wish to separate or omit some verses. Man as a spirit has all abilities here earth as His creator. The acid test for anything in life is the ability to stand the test of time. The scriptures have been outstanding and cannot be broken. (John 10:35). They are just beyond the letter (the written word). They are Life and Spirit. (John 6:63). The question is, what is the Bible to you?
As a Christian I believe the entire Bible is truth and even professors I had in college who were not Christians had a high respect for the Bible. Old and new books contain knowledge which we all can love and respect, but I work in the book profession and will always have a high respect for books .
yes , people like to discuss everything for different reasons.
I hope we discuss for seeking the truth.
even Jesus companions discussed with him before they believed.
how can three become one????
if Jesus had God's capabilities in earth then he had to know everything.
he just made some miracles for persuading people to follow him to know God and he was given these by God.
35-(If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;) John 10
*what doen't it mean?
63-(It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.) John 6
the bible is God's word to me but I have to understnd it right to follow the words.
how do you know that its interpretations are right?
the bible might be a way to know God.
but you can know God easily without books from his creatures.
science leads to God more than bible does in my opinion.
Q) - 1-which part of the bible does Jesus say that he is God or he has some of God parts or nature? is it very clear when he says so?
6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 His government and its peace will never end. [NLT]
Matthew 1:18-25 (New Living Translation)
The Birth of Jesus the Messiah
18 This is how Jesus the Messiah was born. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin, she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit. 19 Joseph, her fiancé, was a good man and did not want to disgrace her publicly, so he decided to break the engagement quietly.
20 As he considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream. “Joseph, son of David,” the angel said, “do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife. For the child within her was conceived by the Holy Spirit. 21 And she will have a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
22 All of this occurred to fulfill the Lord’s message through his prophet: 23 “Look! The virgin will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel, which means ‘God is with us.’”
24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded and took Mary as his wife. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.
John 1:1-5 & 10-14(New Living Translation
1 In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He existed in the beginning with God. 3 God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him. 4 The Word gave life to everything that was created, and his life brought light to everyone. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness can never extinguish it 10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are reborn—not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human[d] and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness.[e] And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son
John 5:19-23 (New Living Translation)
19 So Jesus explained, “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself. He does only what he sees the Father doing. Whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 For the Father loves the Son and shows him everything he is doing. In fact, the Father will show him how to do even greater works than healing this man. Then you will truly be astonished. 21 For just as the Father gives life to those he raises from the dead, so the Son gives life to anyone he wants. 22 In addition, the Father judges no one. Instead, he has given the Son absolute authority to judge, 23 so that everyone will honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son is certainly not honoring the Father who sent him.
Q) - 2-which part does he ask people to worship him(I undrstand that he says that he is the only way to heaven but to worship him I guess we need an exact phrase from him asking us to worship him)?
6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
I could go on and on but I hope this helps you. I will answer the 3rd question at another time. Please visit my hubs for more insight
but aren't these philosophical phrases that only shows the great importance of Jesu?
*don't we need a direct sentence written by Jesus himself saying that he is God and we need to worship him?
*couln't God make worshipping him easier than this?
*did he has to do this suicidal event to persuade us of his love?
*can't we know that he loves us from what he already gave us?
(our bodies , food , nature and many more)
*is he treating us only with love? what about justice?
Not all Christians even believe Jesus is God. For instance, Jehovah's Witnesses preach that Jesus is the Son of God. Unitarians believe in only one God and believe Jesus was not completely divine. Not every single Christian believes Jesus is God.
yeah , that's because bible can be interpreted in many ways.
and there's no a direct statement from Jesus himself telling he is God and we must worship him.
people uderstood his words differently.
translations from old languages also added more complexities.
powerfull rulers enforced thier people to believe what they did at old days and that what gave strong attitudes for some believes about what Jesus was over others.
I was just trying to add some helpful information about the history of Christianity.
God can only give birth to gods. His word〔himself〕became flesh in the person of Jesus to fulfill His vital purpose of redemption on earth. The death and resurrection Jesus was the vital purpose. This process was a Supernatural accomplishment of His purpose. Himself did not become flesh in man to reign on earth as God or ? but for this singular purpose of redemption to man by His blood and resurrection. Glory! It's a faith walk not by sight.Thanks
1-how can God give birth to gods?
when God creats somebody to be a god , he wont be a god because he already was created and a god can't be created.
a god stands by himself.
God is the first and the last.
2-couldn't God rescue us from sins without this sacrificing?
does he need to proove his love?
I already love him because he gave me everything.
3- 1+1+1=1 ?????????????????????????????
*when this could happen:
*why does God make difficult concepts to understand?
there are many simple people who are very smart like me.
what should I do to be a cristian?
should I just put my mind behind?
then why did God make my mind like this and asked me to understand unbelievable stories?
Jesus was a manifestation of God. He had worked on becoming more of God (allowing more of God to reside in his being-heart, mind, soul and body).
Jesus was a Son of God, just like all are sons and daughters of God. But he had attained a greater, the greatest to date, understanding and acceptance of God within his entire being.
Jesus came to show the way of how to attain God within, to leave a path, so others could follow in his footsteps. To allow oneself to be totally infilled with God, so there was no sense of separation between him self and God.
Each person is at their own individual place on that path, through whatever religion or philosophy or belief system...it's not Jesus we are after,. but the Christ that Jesus had become...we all can have our Christ-hood as Jesus had. We are meant to learn from Jesus how to attain that Christ.
All of the prophets, saints, sages, wise people from the beginning of recorded history have been hearing the Word of God and trying to convey to others. Each heard and interpreted what they could of the "inner voice" of God. Each was showing a particular way to God.
Buddha showed the way he learned from within his culture and past religious history.
Krishna told his way...
Yogananda showed his way...
now how people interpret the way shown is where things get off track
If you look at the path toward that ultimate goal of complete unity with God as a flight of stairs, each step is symbolic of the wise people through the ages that have shown the next step, or a step, of the path toward unity with God,
i just happen to believe that as I said above, Jesus showed the ultimate step of understanding and manifesting that complete unity with God.
a hman could be.
he could be in this case a superhuman but not God.
it is an expression.
we are his sons and Jesus was his beloved one.
we are not God's physical sons, or by any way .
just an expression to show love.
Jesus was a very unique wonderful person.
but it doesn't mean he had to be God.
they all weren't gods.
they didn't need to.
why Jesus had to be God?
what is unity with God?
do you understand it completely?
God is the ocean, all souls are drops within that ocean. There is no manifestation of God (ocean) with out the drops (souls). Drops evaporate, make clouds, and transform in many ways, are taken far away from the ocean, but in some form return, even to a different ocean which is still a part of the original ocean. All is connected even in the various forms.
I would have no need to be in embodiment if I understood completely.
I couldn't possibly understand what everyone means by saying Jesus was God. I think it is an individual understanding. I have said what I have said about it to the best of my belief with words. My belief cannot be fully defined in words. All people are of God;all people are God. All people are learning to understand what that means for themselves.
this could means that we have some characteristics of God.
he has all perfect good characteristics and we got them differently from him.
that doesn't necessary lead to unity with him.
he affects our lives but we are independent by ourselves as he wanted.
his aim of this separtion is testing our souls.
separating good from bad.
you are right.
that what I am trying to say.
it is not very clear if he is God or not.
but he is still one of the best men who has delivered a brilliant message of God's purpose.
I think Jesus is the coolest eva! If he was alive today I bet he would be sportin' a bitchin mohawk. LOL.
We'll never know. But I remember back in the days (1960s and 70s), when hippies use to sport Jesus' long hair, and even hold Jesus up to those that tried to tell them they were a scourge on society for having long hair.
It was all a bit twisted, of course, hippies (flower children) trying to find points about their drug induced rebellious lifestyle that was ok...I ought to know, I was one of them! All we really needed to do was not be drug induced or so openly sexual that it upset peoples' sensibilities. We were not as harmonious as we professed !
hippies were religious somehow with moral attitudes I think.
they refused materialism.
I liked them.
Hippees and flower children...a broad spectrum of manifestation indeed. As much as any follower of Jesus. For me there was no one description for hippee, they were everything from vegetarian to cannibal, moral to NOT, sexual to celibate, atheist to religious, sadistic to peace loving, violent to passive, straight to drug induced. What scary and exciting (in our ignorance) times those were.
If I had had any brains then, I would not have done the things that I am having to deal with the ramifications of now...i.e. loss of brain cells, four children with no competent involved fathers, lax of intellectual/logical discipline and fortitude.
But I do have to say, I learned a lot only because I chose to learn and not regret. Jesus taught me that
Well I was there - even ran into Manson and his female flower children. Originally it came out of the SF North Beach Beatnic thing and was philosophical. Then came the influx of kids with no jobs. Then the side-burns, mustache, collar length hair - the weekend hippies and the atrocious fashion thing. The mafia moved in. Then it left town to the country and total degeneration. But if you were a philosophical hippie, what they say is: 'Once a hippie always a hippie'.
I found this in another thread
I agree with every word.
you are right Sandra, there is no faith without doubt.
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